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blankseplocked Are EVE's criminal element their own worst enemy?
 
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Tiberius Maddox
Posted - 2008.05.16 03:42:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Tiberius Maddox on 16/05/2008 03:46:30
I think most everyone knows that real life criminals tend to be their own worst enemy. Their actions are often self-defeating over the long run because they can't resist the urge to undermine, rob and kill each other as much as they do everyone else. In fact, statistics show that most crime in the real world is directed at other criminals, not innocent bystanders.

Real world economic phenomena play out fairly well in EVE's virtual economy. Do you think that holds true for EVE's criminal element as well? Are the policies and tactics employed by pirates and other 'villains' often self-defeating and counterproductive over the long run, or do you think EVE's criminal element is more organized and thoughtful than their real world counterparts?

I saw in another thread that one of the devs hinted that pirates may have shot themselves in the foot by overharvesting low-sec, thus running off all the juicy targets. I also read how some pirates pod kill even after a target pays a ransom, which will probably teach players never to deal with pirates at all.

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.05.16 03:43:00 - [2]
 

Actually they get the furthest ahead in Eve Cool

Tiberius Maddox
Posted - 2008.05.16 03:46:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Actually they get the furthest ahead in Eve


How so? Are you saying they make more ISK or what?

Stakhanov
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2008.05.16 03:55:00 - [4]
 

Sure it's counterproductive , so what. We take life as it goes. Carpe Spolio YARRRR!!

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.05.16 04:54:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Tiberius Maddox
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Actually they get the furthest ahead in Eve


How so? Are you saying they make more ISK or what?


If they good at it Wink

Fox Ogmo
Net 7
The Last Brigade
Posted - 2008.05.16 05:08:00 - [6]
 

Pirates are some of the funnest people to pirate. You know they're ready to fight, and they'll most likely respect you for killing them. There wont be any of that brilliant carebear hatemail however Crying or Very sad

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.05.16 05:11:00 - [7]
 

And that is why they go after the carebears Very Happy

Golden Helmet
Caldari
The Python Cartel.
The Defenders of Pen Island
Posted - 2008.05.16 05:23:00 - [8]
 

Some of the best kills are other pirates. The only difference between pirates and anti-pirates is we kill \ ransom innocent bystanders tooYARRRR!!

As for ransoms, sure some dishonor them, but their just the ones that get publicity. Many many many more pirates honor ransoms, but how many threads do you see about it? Like last night, my alt got caught with my pants down last night, was in a weaponless Buzzard (before anyone asks, no my alt can't use cov ops cloaks, yes I suck), instead of going through the whole die and rebuy routine, I simple convoed the person that first tackled me, asked if he'd accept a ransom, was told the price, paid, and I was free to go. But you don't see a nice, big thread about it, do you?

Majority of pirates will honor their ransom, myself and my corp included. The bad apples simply get more publicity. Anyone that doesn't realize that is obviously very new to the game.


PsyBoRG
Posted - 2008.05.16 07:09:00 - [9]
 

well personaly i have never dishonored a ransom and will never and i know a lot of pirates that feel the same just because a ratter once told me some juicy details about him and my sister and my mother does not mean i think all ratters are bad apples just like i wont be judged with the pirates who's word counts for nothing what so ever

infact i allways trust a pirates word over a carebears word in eve since bears usualy lie to me ie 1v1 and in warps their 20 man gang or how about the old ransom stall to get a fleet there and die miserably before they get out of warp anyway

personaly i disagree with you criminals in eve have an edge over your average RL criminal since honestly crime aint that bloody smart we however have jobs and educations beleave it or not and do this for fun and play our role in the game and honestly if i where u i would listen more to the ppl who play pirates then some dev since honestly overharvesting the only place u can be a criminal in eve is quite a stupid statement towards a pirate Rolling Eyes

Blue Holiday
Posted - 2008.05.16 08:42:00 - [10]
 

Their a lot of different ways to describe success in this game; I'm not really sure that pirates are really playing the "whoever has the most isk is winning" game. I don't see many non-pirates in low sec though, which probably makes it harder for new pirates to start pirating.

sxndy
Gallente
Spiritus Draconis
Posted - 2008.05.16 10:11:00 - [11]
 

Some of the pvp in low sec is about supply and demand, supply being juicy targets, demand being the No of pirates/pvpers willing to hunt/camp/mission bust/start wars, etc and price being the amount of time said pirates/pvpers are willing to put into killing others.

As the number of juicy targets goes down, pirates/pvpers look for ways of bringing the supply back up, when this eventually dries up too, they spend more time doing other things (price goes down). A short time later juicy targets realise that things arenít as dangerous as they used to be so they start taking risks again; encouraging the pirates/pvpers to get back to business. This happens in areas rather than the eve galaxy.

As for being like the real word, economy yes, pvp to some extent. To live, we all have to manage our money and budgets, but very few of us love (not telling my position on this) going out and beating up a school kid to get his allowance or taking on the toughest guy in the street just to see if you can beat him.


Maybe if we didnít have so much social responsibility forced on by laws and society, real life pvp would be very similar to that of EVE.
Anyway, if society ever breaks down I got my shotgun under my bed ready and waiting.

As for criminal elements being their own worst enemy, off course they are, just like every other sector of society in EVE and RL.

YARRRR!!

Wind Ictiva
Delta Kappa Gamma
Posted - 2008.05.16 10:17:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: PsyBoRG
we however have jobs and educations beleave it or not


well i for one am having a hard time believing you have an educationVery Happy

masternerdguy
Gallente
Meerkat Maner
Posted - 2008.05.16 10:20:00 - [13]
 

Constantly backstab and undermine each other? I am in a pirate corp, never seen that happen.

Problems arise when more than one pirate group tries to use the same areas of space.

masternerdguy
Gallente
Meerkat Maner
Posted - 2008.05.16 10:23:00 - [14]
 

Quote:
personaly i disagree with you criminals in eve have an edge over your average RL criminal since honestly crime aint that bloody smart we however have jobs and educations beleave it or not and do this for fun and play our role in the game and honestly if i where u i would listen more to the ppl who play pirates then some dev since honestly overharvesting the only place u can be a criminal in eve is quite a stupid statement towards a pirate

i cannot even read that statement cuz of the grammer lol

Lavraen
Animus Furandi
Posted - 2008.05.16 10:38:00 - [15]
 

If you take Eve as a microcosm of the real world I'm sure you will find parallels. For Eve to exist I personally believe you have to have every facet that the real world contains to make it a success. The fact that there is a player driven economy, political system, criminal element, pseudo police force (anti-pie) and business world is testament to this success.

Taking this parallel further, as there is a criminal element in both the real world and in Eve that is still going strong since the dawn of civilisation and creation of the Eve suggests there must be some reward in nefarious activities that isn't self defeating.

Be it adrenaline, endorphins, money/ISK, power, fame who knows!

As with all situations people will adapt eventually and if low-sec becomes over harvested, I'm sure criminals will come up with a new way of plying their trade.

Criminals are here to stay and Eve is a better place with them than without them IMHO.

YARRRR!!

Atreides Horza
Caldari
Malum.
Posted - 2008.05.16 10:44:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Atreides Horza on 16/05/2008 10:48:02
Originally by: Tiberius Maddox
I saw in another thread that one of the devs hinted that pirates may have shot themselves in the foot by overharvesting low-sec, thus running off all the juicy targets. I also read how some pirates pod kill even after a target pays a ransom, which will probably teach players never to deal with pirates at all.


Au contraire.

If the pirate community shot itself in the foot from overharvesting low-sec, then the carebear community smashed every single toe on both feet with a sledgehammer.

Endless cries for nerfs, warp to 0, moar speed, moar stabs, moar cloaking, moar money in high sec and moar faction ships has forced criminal elements into the high sec that was previously regarded as safe by most people.

The dramatic increase in suicide ganks, ninja salvaging and subsequent wtfpwnage of phallically challenged mission runners is testament to the fact that crime and criminal elements CAN and WILL adapt, as long as this game facilitates PvP.

Granted, low-sec IS a joke. Or rather was. Now it's just barren - but high sec is becoming the new low sec... and the self-perpetuating circle of collective crying will continue to force new and innovative ways of extracting isk from easy prey.

Tuberider
Pothouse Cartel
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2008.05.16 11:17:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Atreides HorzaAu contraire.

If the pirate community shot itself in the foot from overharvesting low-sec, then the carebear community smashed every single toe on both feet with a sledgehammer.

Endless cries for nerfs, warp to 0, moar speed, moar stabs, moar cloaking, moar money in high sec and moar faction ships has forced criminal elements into the high sec that was previously regarded as safe by most people.

The dramatic increase in suicide ganks, ninja salvaging and subsequent wtfpwnage of phallically challenged mission runners is testament to the fact that crime and criminal elements CAN and WILL adapt, as long as this game facilitates PvP.

Granted, low-sec IS a joke. Or rather was. Now it's just barren - but high sec is becoming the new low sec... and the self-perpetuating circle of collective crying will continue to force new and innovative ways of extracting isk from easy prey.[/quote



i likes this post so many truths Razz

Rhak Amharr
Minmatar
Genos Occidere
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.16 11:46:00 - [18]
 

Posting in a 'comparing Eve to RL' thread.

Lavraen
Animus Furandi
Posted - 2008.05.16 11:49:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Rhak Amharr
Posting in a 'comparing Eve to RL' thread.


I'm off down to tesco to buy a six pack of quafe and some exotic dancers.


Larkonis Trassler
Doctrine.
Posted - 2008.05.16 11:55:00 - [20]
 

Nope, still plenty of targets where I live. Personally made about 80 mil in ransoms yesterday and same again in loot.

Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
Posted - 2008.05.16 14:42:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Tuberider
Originally by: Atreides
HorzaAu contraire.

If the pirate community shot itself in the foot from overharvesting low-sec, then the carebear community smashed every single toe on both feet with a sledgehammer.

Endless cries for nerfs, warp to 0, moar speed, moar stabs, moar cloaking, moar money in high sec and moar faction ships has forced criminal elements into the high sec that was previously regarded as safe by most people.

The dramatic increase in suicide ganks, ninja salvaging and subsequent wtfpwnage of phallically challenged mission runners is testament to the fact that crime and criminal elements CAN and WILL adapt, as long as this game facilitates PvP.

Granted, low-sec IS a joke. Or rather was. Now it's just barren - but high sec is becoming the new low sec... and the self-perpetuating circle of collective crying will continue to force new and innovative ways of extracting isk from easy prey.


i likes this post so many truths Razz


I oh so agree.

combined with the omgz i got owned, no one go to lowsec! and the fear mongering that is rampant on the forums. heh go take a look at the responses to the factional warfare blog comments...

the wah im going to get ganked on a gate or in a mission and lose 300million at a time. this mentality is in damn near every highsec dweller simply because thats what people say on the forums and in rookie chat. And you know what it is true because the pirates are playing a multiplayer game and the gankee is playing a single player game

oh I have hauled over 200million at a time, and you know what? never ganked.

Zedrik Cayne
Gallente
Standards and Practices
Posted - 2008.05.16 14:53:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Tiberius Maddox
Edited by: Tiberius Maddox on 16/05/2008 03:46:30
I think most everyone knows that real life criminals tend to be their own worst enemy. Their actions are often self-defeating over the long run because they can't resist the urge to undermine, rob and kill each other as much as they do everyone else. In fact, statistics show that most crime in the real world is directed at other criminals, not innocent bystanders.

Real world economic phenomena play out fairly well in EVE's virtual economy. Do you think that holds true for EVE's criminal element as well? Are the policies and tactics employed by pirates and other 'villains' often self-defeating and counterproductive over the long run, or do you think EVE's criminal element is more organized and thoughtful than their real world counterparts?

I saw in another thread that one of the devs hinted that pirates may have shot themselves in the foot by overharvesting low-sec, thus running off all the juicy targets. I also read how some pirates pod kill even after a target pays a ransom, which will probably teach players never to deal with pirates at all.


Is someone upset that they lost their shield and armor tanked megathron in lowsec? It looks like you made a juicy target.

posteroid
im right your wrong
Posted - 2008.05.16 15:02:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Zedrik Cayne
Originally by: Tiberius Maddox
Edited by: Tiberius Maddox on 16/05/2008 03:46:30
I think most everyone knows that real life criminals tend to be their own worst enemy. Their actions are often self-defeating over the long run because they can't resist the urge to undermine, rob and kill each other as much as they do everyone else. In fact, statistics show that most crime in the real world is directed at other criminals, not innocent bystanders.

Real world economic phenomena play out fairly well in EVE's virtual economy. Do you think that holds true for EVE's criminal element as well? Are the policies and tactics employed by pirates and other 'villains' often self-defeating and counterproductive over the long run, or do you think EVE's criminal element is more organized and thoughtful than their real world counterparts?

I saw in another thread that one of the devs hinted that pirates may have shot themselves in the foot by overharvesting low-sec, thus running off all the juicy targets. I also read how some pirates pod kill even after a target pays a ransom, which will probably teach players never to deal with pirates at all.


Is someone upset that they lost their shield and armor tanked megathron in lowsec? It looks like you made a juicy target.


OMG wtf were you thinking with that fit???????????.

DubanFP
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.05.16 15:06:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: DubanFP on 16/05/2008 15:15:31
Generally speaking Pirates are the ones who have the most fun at what they're doing. As long as that holds true it's a sucessful profession in EVE. That and I'm almost never smacked by another pirate. Pirates generally have fun win or lose. Many Carebears, not all, are the ones who will cease having a good time and get into angry mode. It's great when a "carebear" says something like i'd feel the same way if things were reversed when any real pirate has been in the same position many times before.

Thinking about productivity in piracy is lame because this is a game. It's all about the fun. In that sense Piracy is almost certainly the most sucessful career out there simply because we go into it knowing we'll lose their ship and plan accordingly.

Manu Hermanus
FaDoyToy
Posted - 2008.05.16 15:25:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: posteroid
Originally by: Zedrik Cayne
Originally by: Tiberius Maddox
Edited by: Tiberius Maddox on 16/05/2008 03:46:30
I think most everyone knows that real life criminals tend to be their own worst enemy. Their actions are often self-defeating over the long run because they can't resist the urge to undermine, rob and kill each other as much as they do everyone else. In fact, statistics show that most crime in the real world is directed at other criminals, not innocent bystanders.

Real world economic phenomena play out fairly well in EVE's virtual economy. Do you think that holds true for EVE's criminal element as well? Are the policies and tactics employed by pirates and other 'villains' often self-defeating and counterproductive over the long run, or do you think EVE's criminal element is more organized and thoughtful than their real world counterparts?

I saw in another thread that one of the devs hinted that pirates may have shot themselves in the foot by overharvesting low-sec, thus running off all the juicy targets. I also read how some pirates pod kill even after a target pays a ransom, which will probably teach players never to deal with pirates at all.


Is someone upset that they lost their shield and armor tanked megathron in lowsec? It looks like you made a juicy target.


OMG wtf were you thinking with that fit???????????.


I think most everyone knows that shield and armor tanked megas are their own worse enemy

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2008.05.16 15:59:00 - [26]
 

FAIL.

Inertial
Did I just do that
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2008.05.16 16:24:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Alowishus
FAIL.


Why does it fail? Fact is that you are just blurting out a accusation of "FAIL." without providing arguements to support your accusation, and as such, your post fails.

This reply does not take into consideration if the thread it is posted in actually do or do not fail.


Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2008.05.16 17:19:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 16/05/2008 17:25:11


Being a philosopher, (I even have the lil' slip of paper to prove it, yay) I find myself very eager to reply to a thread concerning the subtle underpinnings of mirrored society in an MMO I have only been playing now for five weeks. BUT, that being said, I will reserve my judgement until I actually experience (for more than a short five minutes) low sec space and interactions with pirates.

I can say, however, that there is a substantial difference between what is ethical and what is moral.

A criminal enterprise, in EVE, be it large or persistent enough over time, represents a society of ethical values and premises which though they may be opposite of our own, are no more ethical than say, the ethical right an Anti-Pirate enterprise feels it has to pod ANY pirate it finds in low sec without due process or a burden of proof that the pirate has committed real crimes.

A moral enterprise, is the moral fiber of all beings, what is moral to one must be moral to all, or else the system breaks down. Say for instance, if it were moral for anyone to steal from anyone else. Imagine a world where every person stole from the one next to them. Suddenly no one can hold onto any tangible or material wealth because for every thing they steal another is stolen from them in return. The system fails.

So if you are asking, do criminal enterprises in EVE constitute a failed ethical practice? Of course not. Ethically they are just as successful as any other culture or society. They make their own ethical laws and rules, and if they as a people follow those rules by majority then they are successful as a society.

If instead you are asking, do criminal enterprises in EVE constitute a failed moral practice? Of course not. The world of Eve continues to grow, prosper, develop, and persist. If criminal enterprises were to not have any moral fiber whatsoever, you would quickly find the system and underpinnings of society within EVE failing apart beyond repair. There would be NO low sec traveling other than pirates as there would be little reason to do so as someone pointed out earlier. If all pirates followed no moral code, there would be no profit to venturing into low sec in order to make money or pursue interests.


SO, that's all I got, hope your eyes didn't bleed too much. YARRRR!!

Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari
Guiding Hand Social Club
Posted - 2008.05.16 18:26:00 - [29]
 

I like to think I've done nicely for myself, being a criminal.

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2008.05.16 18:30:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Alowishus on 16/05/2008 18:29:49
Originally by: Inertial
Originally by: Alowishus
FAIL.


Why does it fail? Fact is that you are just blurting out a accusation of "FAIL." without providing arguements to support your accusation, and as such, your post fails.




Do I really have to make a solid argument about why a dual tanked Megathron is fail? Ok here goes...

Wait. Nevermind.

You FAIL.


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