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Kaiden Exeider
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.16 00:11:00 - [1]
 

An idea occurred to me recently and would like to see what the public's opinions would be

this idea was pertaining to having a special type of Cyno for jump freighters and such.

In much the same way that Black ops ships lock onto Covert Cynos, I would think it would be good to have something like a "Commercial Cynosural field generator" for use with Commercial Ships like Jump freighters. Since Jump Freighters by their definition are a type of capital ship that CAN go into empire space, but the one thing that makes them different from their non jumping bretheren is the ability to Jump. But as it stands now, one can jump from High sec to low sec, and low sec to low sec. But they cant jump from Low-Sec to High Sec, or High Sec to High Sec.

I thought Why is this, i mean if one should be ABLE to fly to high sec in normal space, why cant one jump. that idea got me thinking, while at the same time trying not to disrupt the current system with combat capable ships. it then occured to me.

Having something like a "Commercial" Cyno that would be able to operate in Empire, and only jumpdrives that are "Commercial" class such as the jump freighter can lock onto them, along with what ever future commercial ships CCP puts in , in the future. This doesnt disrupt the system as it is set for combat ships, so that crowd should be happy. and at the same time this allows Jump freighters to be more versatile and gives the jump system overall a larger sense of use, instead of just being "the way you get that big dread from point A to B." this will allow those who can afford the jump freighters and use them to use them as best they can.

I see no reason why this idea shouldn't be implemented. It doesnt break anything and only serves to add to the game and beef up the jump system as a whole.

With this we will have the horse, AS well as the cart.

-Kaiden

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2008.05.16 00:37:00 - [2]
 

I was thinking more of a npc setup cyno system.

Perhaps something concord sets up. They are cap ship stations which allow you to jump to npc cynos. You pay concord for the jump. You then also are unable to be aggressive in those areas. No wars or anything allowed.

This would allow all caps to be brought into high sec concord systems like Pakshi right next to oursulaert. Safer trading of cap ships. Also the allowance of jump freighters to use these also to move through high sec in some ways.

We just need to inform the Nyx pilots that they cant dock in stations... and they shouldn't ram the stations because of that anger. Very Happy

Those concord systems obviously will be wardec free systems. I don't think there are enough concord run systems to allow jumping from jita to oursulaert directly though. Not directly anyway.

Kaiden Exeider
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.16 02:49:00 - [3]
 

well, the thing is i notice everyone who uses the jump system is very wary of changes of any kind and an just suggesting a more conservative change. start with something small.

I think it would be cool if the stargates had cynos on them so you could lock onto a stargate within range and just jump, cut out the middle man.

-K

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2008.05.16 04:27:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Kaiden Exeider
well, the thing is i notice everyone who uses the jump system is very wary of changes of any kind and an just suggesting a more conservative change. start with something small.

I think it would be cool if the stargates had cynos on them so you could lock onto a stargate within range and just jump, cut out the middle man.

-K

why not just let caps to use stargates if that's the case?

Irn Bruce
Posted - 2008.05.16 04:30:00 - [5]
 

The only problem I can see with it is people jumping between trade hubs. You'll have dozens of cyno alts lagging up Jita even more than it is already. And I'm not sure what effect it would have on the economy if it was possible to pretty much instantly jump goods from jita to rens or oursalaert depending on where the price was best. You don't want to make the market too easy for the sellers to drive the prices up, but I'm no expert on economics, so I don't want to rubbish the idea on that basis.

In principle I think it'd be a really good idea to allow purely logistics ships to jump directly into highsec. It might make more people venture out to 0.0 if it was easier to get you stuff out there safely and to move thing back to empire to sell. Maybe to balance it out and avoid instajumping between trade hubs, it could only be possible to jump to highsec from lowsec, and vice versa, or maybe these cynos could only be set up in 0.5 systems?

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2008.05.16 04:55:00 - [6]
 

Quote:
The only problem I can see with it is people jumping between trade hubs. You'll have dozens of cyno alts lagging up Jita even more than it is already. And I'm not sure what effect it would have on the economy if it was possible to pretty much instantly jump goods from jita to rens or oursalaert depending on where the price was best. You don't want to make the market too easy for the sellers to drive the prices up, but I'm no expert on economics, so I don't want to rubbish the idea on that basis.

actually it would actually bring stability between jita and oursulaert. So the prices become roughly the same. So less people will fly to jita to save the extra few million. Thusly decreasing lag. Which is good.

Quote:
In principle I think it'd be a really good idea to allow purely logistics ships to jump directly into highsec. It might make more people venture out to 0.0 if it was easier to get you stuff out there safely and to move thing back to empire to sell.

typically you would need to jump to low sec still anyway.

Quote:
. Maybe to balance it out and avoid instajumping between trade hubs, it could only be possible to jump to highsec from lowsec, and vice versa, or maybe these cynos could only be set up in 0.5 systems?

This is why I suggest an npc setup.

Kaiden Exeider
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.17 06:38:00 - [7]
 

well i guess that something that would have to be tested out I guess. I was just suggesting something that was a "quick and dirty" way of getting it up and running without adding alot of new things. with an NPC system you have to test the scripts and make sure everything is working right and such. my idea is add an item and change the jumpdrive type of the logistical ships to use this new item.

but then again, that alone requires testing. but as I said I think it would still be a good improvement. regardless of how they would do it exactly.

-K

Nemtar Nataal
Demonic Retribution
Posted - 2008.05.17 09:10:00 - [8]
 

Capital ships wore never ment to be a solo experience in EVE.
CCP's intention have alwayes been that Capitals should need extensive logistical support and as such introducing a system that promotes even less coordination and team work between people would be in direct opposition of what EVE is all about!

Commercial Cynos i general would just promote even less effort and work from people when doing logistics making the game smaller and allowing for even cheeper and easier logistics. Pritty soon you are going to see a system where a record few people in a alliance can run all the soverignty of a entire alliance. Tbh looking at the map, the last thing we need is for alliance to be able to hold even more space then they already do!


Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2008.05.17 10:20:00 - [9]
 

Quote:
Capital ships wore never ment to be a solo experience in EVE.

The commercial cyno idea I posted would be pretty much only an industrialist sort of thing. Which isn't exactly something you do as a group necessarily.

Quote:
CCP's intention have alwayes been that Capitals should need extensive logistical support and as such introducing a system that promotes even less coordination and team work between people would be in direct opposition of what EVE is all about!

afaik this is true for combat. Not for industrial means. Infact all purchases of capitals are typically done by the pilot and an alt cyno pilot. Certainly not a group effort.

Quote:
Commercial Cynos i general would just promote even less effort and work from people when doing logistics making the game smaller and allowing for even cheeper and easier logistics.

Easier obviously. The cost to use the npc cyno can be adjust appropriately to create balance.

Quote:
Pritty soon you are going to see a system where a record few people in a alliance can run all the soverignty of a entire alliance. Tbh looking at the map, the last thing we need is for alliance to be able to hold even more space then they already do!

I certainly cant see this happening from simply setting up a few systems which are held by concord that will allow jumping too for industrial means. It costs money so it isn't a free cyno when cynos typically cost liquid ozone but they can charge whatever amount they want basically. Infact the cost of the cyno jump will be based on the buy order of liquid ozone + npc adjustable balancing cost.

Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2008.05.17 14:14:00 - [10]
 

why not make it a corp thing?

we rent offices, why not rent commercial cyno fields?

certain stations can offer them, as dictated by CCP to make them not too common.
possibly requiring corp or faction standings to rent.


Xlost
Gallente
M. Corp
Mercenary Coalition
Posted - 2008.05.17 14:53:00 - [11]
 

I would use the same rules as clones in empire. The player must get high standings with a certain factions, and then would be allowed to use cyno's at selected locations.

Nekopyat
Posted - 2008.05.17 20:42:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Xlost
I would use the same rules as clones in empire. The player must get high standings with a certain factions, and then would be allowed to use cyno's at selected locations.


That seems fair.

Esp if they are going to start introducing jump drives on smaller ships. With the introduction of black-ops, in game at least, we know it is possible to fit a jump drive on a battleship sized vessel, so it is only a matter of time till it makes it into newer models of non-capital ships. At which point public (or standing based) cyno services start making good business sense.

Marcus Gideon
Gallente
Federal Defense Operations
Posted - 2008.05.17 21:06:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Kaiden Exeider
An idea occurred to me recently and would like to see what the public's opinions would be

this idea was pertaining to having a special type of Cyno for jump freighters and such.

In much the same way that Black ops ships lock onto Covert Cynos, I would think it would be good to have something like a "Commercial Cynosural field generator" for use with Commercial Ships like Jump freighters. Since Jump Freighters by their definition are a type of capital ship that CAN go into empire space, but the one thing that makes them different from their non jumping bretheren is the ability to Jump. But as it stands now, one can jump from High sec to low sec, and low sec to low sec. But they cant jump from Low-Sec to High Sec, or High Sec to High Sec.

I thought Why is this, i mean if one should be ABLE to fly to high sec in normal space, why cant one jump. that idea got me thinking, while at the same time trying not to disrupt the current system with combat capable ships. it then occured to me.

Having something like a "Commercial" Cyno that would be able to operate in Empire, and only jumpdrives that are "Commercial" class such as the jump freighter can lock onto them, along with what ever future commercial ships CCP puts in , in the future. This doesnt disrupt the system as it is set for combat ships, so that crowd should be happy. and at the same time this allows Jump freighters to be more versatile and gives the jump system overall a larger sense of use, instead of just being "the way you get that big dread from point A to B." this will allow those who can afford the jump freighters and use them to use them as best they can.

I see no reason why this idea shouldn't be implemented. It doesnt break anything and only serves to add to the game and beef up the jump system as a whole.

With this we will have the horse, AS well as the cart.

-Kaiden


This seems to have wandered a bit off topic.

The OP was looking for a way to get goods from A to B faster. That's why he's suggested a Cyno that only a Hauler can lock onto.

Somewhere, that turned into having Cyno in High Sec so everyone can strut around Jita in their Titans and Moms... which would only compound the lag issues everyone complains about greatly.

The worst part, is that if any form of a generic High Sec Cyno were allowed, you know rookies would get Bait Can popped by a Carrier at some point. They'd be tempted to open that little can, and take the T1 drone, and then 5 Fighters would warp in and dust them.


I think the Hauler Cyno might be an interesting idea. Considering most "Traders" make money by getting trade goods from A to B as fast as possible.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2008.05.17 22:42:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Sir Substance
why not make it a corp thing?

we rent offices, why not rent commercial cyno fields?

certain stations can offer them, as dictated by CCP to make them not too common.
possibly requiring corp or faction standings to rent.



I was thinking more because there are many newb corp industrialists who dont have a corp to take advantage of it.

Quote:
I would use the same rules as clones in empire. The player must get high standings with a certain factions, and then would be allowed to use cyno's at selected locations.

That works also.

Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2008.05.18 01:21:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Jason Edwards
Originally by: Sir Substance
why not make it a corp thing?

we rent offices, why not rent commercial cyno fields?

certain stations can offer them, as dictated by CCP to make them not too common.
possibly requiring corp or faction standings to rent.



I was thinking more because there are many newb corp industrialists who dont have a corp to take advantage of it.


ive allways felt that corps dont offer much beyond newb corps except what the players can offer. this is just another thing to entice people to join a corp rather then newb it up and miss the entire point of EVE. besides, hwo likely is it that someone whose been living in The Scope for the last year is gonna have a jump freighter?

think how much manpower goes into those things. ive been trying to make just a fenrir for weeks now, im nowhere near done.

Kaiden Exeider
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.19 06:15:00 - [16]
 

well hes got to at least have a buddy or an alt account to who would have to run out to where he needs to go to set the cyno. and if he wants to jump across empire, hes gonna need several friends running cynos.

-K

Kaiden Exeider
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.20 04:17:00 - [17]
 

bump

I would still like more people to chime in on this.

-K

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2008.05.20 04:40:00 - [18]
 

Quote:
think how much manpower goes into those things. ive been trying to make just a fenrir for weeks now, im nowhere near done.

fenrir is so unpopular honestly. It's either charon for biggest cargo, obelisk because of iteron relationship. Or providence because of the beauty. Fenrir just doesnt do anything.

I've seen people offer over 1billion in the ship channel for a fenrir and nothing. Yet obelisks and charons go for pretty cheap.

Kaiden Exeider
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.21 13:53:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Kaiden Exeider on 21/05/2008 13:53:59
anyone know how I could get a CCP person to read this post, or private message them or something

I'd like to read an honest opinion from one of the dev team if possible

-K

Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2008.05.21 21:53:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Jason Edwards
Quote:
think how much manpower goes into those things. ive been trying to make just a fenrir for weeks now, im nowhere near done.

fenrir is so unpopular honestly. It's either charon for biggest cargo, obelisk because of iteron relationship. Or providence because of the beauty. Fenrir just doesnt do anything.

I've seen people offer over 1billion in the ship channel for a fenrir and nothing. Yet obelisks and charons go for pretty cheap.


ya, but im already almost at minni industrial 5. it takes more time then im willing to accept to train to one of the other races freighters. besides, ive watched the time it takes for a providence to align and warp. the fenrir is MUCH faster.

makes for a much better hauler, unless your trying to mvoe capital ship arrays.


Kaiden Exeider
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.22 19:56:00 - [21]
 

I was reading in another thread about the request for the mid level cargo vessels that would be between industrials and freighters. If those were jump capable then this idea would be perfect for them, but even if they weren't then I still think that there should be a commercial jumpdrive and cynos for freighters.

-K

Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2008.05.23 02:54:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Kaiden Exeider
I was reading in another thread about the request for the mid level cargo vessels that would be between industrials and freighters. If those were jump capable then this idea would be perfect for them, but even if they weren't then I still think that there should be a commercial jumpdrive and cynos for freighters.

-K


i really dont think adding a jump drive to a mid level freighter is a good idea. it would mean that you could wander into low sec with one for cargo runs, secure in the knowledge that in case of emergency, you can jump out. this would severely imbalance the price difference between high and low sec.

Lusulpher
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.23 06:58:00 - [23]
 

Commercial wormholes in random location, sure, but commercial jumpdrives when well-organized have too much punch.

Sorry gotta /boo

Sir Substance
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
Posted - 2008.05.23 07:34:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Lusulpher
Commercial wormholes in random location, sure, but commercial jumpdrives when well-organized have too much punch.

Sorry gotta /boo


how so?

providing its only allowing black ops, jump freighters and maybe rorquals to use them, how is overpowered?

Kaiden Exeider
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.28 04:41:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Kaiden Exeider on 28/05/2008 04:42:01
Quote:
i really dont think adding a jump drive to a mid level freighter is a good idea. it would mean that you could wander into low sec with one for cargo runs, secure in the knowledge that in case of emergency, you can jump out. this would severely imbalance the price difference between high and low sec.


you can do that already, if you have a jump freighter, you gonna use that jump drive anyway in low sec to get you to the closest system to high sec. I mean like I said before, by its very definition it is a Capital Ship that can go into Empire. so i think it should be able to use its jump drive in empire using a commercial cyno. that way it has its own cyno, it has dedicated equipment and so you don't risk breaking the game by having general equipment that other ships with jumpdrives use.

The idea is that only commercial vessels that CCP lets into empire anyway can use their jumpdrives and live out their purposes to the fullest.

-K

Jawas
Gallente
Posted - 2008.07.01 22:26:00 - [26]
 

A commercial cyno mod would be useful. The only cyno field that can be used in Empire, it would allow players to move their JF's to systems of their own choice. Same rule applies, only commercial ships can lock on to it.

Having NPC activated cyno fields is fine but unless they are constantly moving from system to system, they will simply be camped by suicide gankers waiting for the JF's to appear. At 5 billion a hit and really pitiful insurance payout, you really don't want to lose one. In highsec, you would have to assemble an escort fleet, fly them to the NPC cyno location before jumping. At least with a module to do it, you could create the cyno more locally where your fleet is already assembled.

A module would have advantages over a NPC controlled cyno but have it's own set of limitations.
*Cannot be activated on the same grid as a station, belt or any other celestial object.
*Has no Covert counterpart so anyone can find it.
*Has no privacy so anyone can lock on and use it from the map display.
*Has far heavier fuel requirements than a standard cyno, (X2 or mabe X3). Can be fitted to a standard Indy or transport ship for this reason.
*Cannot be used for highsec-highsec jumps, you just waste fuel creating the cyno.
*Cannot be used within 5 jumps of any system with 200 or more players in or has had 200 at once in the last hour. (That makes it impossible to jump in too near Jita, even right after DT).

Anyone wanting to target these ships, just like any other suicide ganker, watches where common trade routes occur. Every Saturday, XYZ jumps into XXXX so they become a likely target one saturday night. Fuel requirement makes it impractical to create more than one field to confuse them.

Messeko
The Watchful Camarilla
Posted - 2008.07.09 20:50:00 - [27]
 

I like the idea of avoiding suicide ganks and saving time with a ship that costs so damn much, but really, I only see this being useful for one case: high to very high value cargo.

Alot of replies seem to ignore that a jump frieghter consumes a noticeable amount of isotopes per lightyear. a trip from sov space to a trade hub and back could start costing 50mill easily. What are you hauling at that point that is worth it? Megacyte? Dysposium?

Even though I'm all for being time efficient, there are few cases where the value of the cargo would justify burning fuel halfway across New Eden. It is a benifit that affects a small minority.

Bloody Rabbit
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.07.10 03:35:00 - [28]
 

I like the idea of having Jump Freighters(and only JF) able to lock on to comercial (NPC) Cyno's in high sec.

All the same rules, war decs can pop you and all that. But make it so that player corps have to rent an office AND rent a cyno field insert name so that its corp members can jump from point A to point B in high sec. Even can tag on a requirement that corps must HOLD a faction or corp standing of 5 or whatever.

Key points:
Only JF
Only high sec
Only player corps who rent offices and rent new cyno field whatever
.

Anything more than this and it breaks the whole game and rules.

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.07.10 06:55:00 - [29]
 

It is just a rephrasing of constantly recurring idea that people want to JUMP from High Sec system to high Sec system.

Let me put it this way, I have mentioned it before, I know of at least 4 trade routes that would make me billion or more a day if I could JUMP within high sec empire.

This will have detrimental effect on market in general, because it will really equalize it to the point of obsequiousness - and it will definitely, as mentioned above, will create a tremendous ISK faucet.

If one thinks about this in depth, and with modicum of attention to detail, one will realize that even though one has a wish for such great convenience, it is tremendously short-sighted in the long run, and will cause significant detriment to the game in general.

Jawas
Gallente
Posted - 2008.07.10 07:32:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Jawas on 10/07/2008 07:33:47
That's why most have agreed that no highsec to highsec jumps can be made.

Add another limitation to the list I made above to avoid overcoming the highsec-highsec jump limitation.
*Cooldown period after jumping of at least 30 minutes or so during which, you cannot jump a second time.

This limits jumps highsec-lowsec-highsec to effectively form a jump from highsec to highsec.

This cannot possibly be an isk faucet. Nobody is fool enough to pay so much for the fuel to jump twice just to get there a few minutes quicker. Normal freighters don't use jump fuel and have larger cargo holds. Anyone going from one highsec location to another will just use one of them and not even consider a JF for that purpose.

Remember that some of your cargo space will be reserved for jump fuel so it's even less space to use for cargo. Less cargo space plus considerable jump fuel costs means profits will be very marginal using this method. That's why CCP decided on such high costs for fuel for the JF.


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