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LuvTheMonkey
Minmatar
Infinite Monkeys Foundation
Posted - 2008.05.15 10:50:00 - [91]
 

Last post before I go to bed....

I don't see that as a specifically Tech2 BPO problem. It's true that they were the items involved in that incident (a Sabre BPO being the crown jewel of it all), however there are other avenues of profit that could have been exploited in such a way - X-Type and Officer equipment comes to mind. That issue falls more in the realm of CCP's Internal Affairs, and maintaining honest accountability - an issue that should not be taken lightly at all.

Joe
Umbra Legion
Shadow Empire.
Posted - 2008.05.15 10:54:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Daransee
Originally by: Joe
I Have never thought there was a Problem with the T2 lottery

Would you like to tell us you've never heard about the Lottery-BoB case?
Well just search in Wikipedia for eve-online and read the toppic "Developer misconduct".


would i like to tell you why i dont think the lottery was a problem? sure, read my post instead of just quoting the first line thats basicly an introduction into paragraphs on why it wasnt a problemRolling Eyes

Everyone could do R&D lottery, 1 month old chars, 1 year old chars, you only needed one ticket to win.
Anyone could enter to win one of the limited bpos the devs wanted to offer, and it was a much 'fairer' solution to the fiasco that surrounded the Very first bpo entering the game.

The Dev lottery scandel was blown completely out of proportion in the news, and why not, a dev cheating for personal profit is intolerable. the corp he was a memebr of didnt ask him todo it, or benifit from the pitance his stolen bpos made, nor did they impact the market, the simply impacted his credibilty as a Dev.

Your are right tho, this isnt the only case of Misconducted with game tools, and is the main reason we dont have STAR event members any more (and the wonderfull event chains we used to have years ago, but thats a whole idff whine)

the bottom line is people Spend 10's of billions, litrially years worth of project profits on obtaining these limited edition Bpos becuase the devs said they would not effect them at the last Fanfest Q&A. I don't see ccp giving out super bpc with 3 years worth of runs for every t2 bpo in the game.

Do CSM canditades find the BPO situation a problem, or do they think a solution in needed for this 'problem'. i would like to know before i cast Votes.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.15 10:55:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Daransee

Since yet no one said somthing against the bitter taste of owning a T2 BPO that might not be legal ingame. And i guess it is one of the strongest arguments for a removal.


man what?

Bambi
Existentialist Collective
Posted - 2008.05.15 11:17:00 - [94]
 

has anyone ever had a concrete answer from the Devs regarding the quantity of T2 BPO's left within the game?
The lottery can't have produced THAT many BPO's as once a BPO was 'won' that agent no longer offered the chance to 'win' that BPO any more.

I am not an owner of a T2 BPO (a nice one anyway) so removing them wouldn't effect me in a negative way, but I do not wish to see them removed. Personally I cant see how theycan have a major effect on the ecomony of EVE.

Daransee
Posted - 2008.05.15 11:23:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Joe
The Dev lottery scandel was blown completely out of proportion in the news, and why not, a dev cheating for personal profit is intolerable.

ok till here..
Originally by: Joe
the corp he was a memebr of didnt ask him todo it, or benifit from the pitance his stolen bpos made, nor did they impact the market, the simply impacted his credibilty as a Dev.


Ok, maybe they didn't ask him to do it. But maybe they knew about it. It's nearly the same thing. In RL people covering criminals beeing punished sometimes even as hard as them.
And for sure the corp/alliance did "never" benefit from the bpo cause they put it in an vitrine where it got covered with dust. Ain't it so? Neutral
Well i also belive the great spaghettimonster will come and eat us all!Surprised

And it doesn't just impact "his" credibilty as dev. it impact the other dev's, the corp's, the alliance's, ccp, the game, the community and "YES" also the T2 BPO...

Joe
Umbra Legion
Shadow Empire.
Posted - 2008.05.15 13:19:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Daransee
And it doesn't just impact "his" credibilty as dev. it impact the other dev's, the corp's, the alliance's, ccp, the game, the community and "YES" also the T2 BPO...


He chose to steal 5 bpos from the 20,000 that were seeded and it was tracked and fixed. It didnt ruin the T2 lottery, Forum Propaganda did.

His bpo were worthless in production at the time he stole them, and stole them for the same reason everyone still wants them, becuase they were designed to be limited edition.

your histeria over the issue is exactly the same type that blew the situation out of proportion when it happened. his theft didnt undermine th lottery, it undermined his credibility, and finally gave the Forum warriors a legitamte reason for their hate mongering and propaganda of his corp/alliance.

Would a dev announce his prescence in a corp?
would his prescence been known to the whole alliance?
would his personal klepto behaviour be chatted about within corp or alliance?

The obvious answer is no.

I realise its a great scapegoat for all your angst about the BPOs but it was insignificant and not an issue that effects bpo now. It wasnt even on the same scale as corps litriallly being handed the first tech II bpo by Gms 'roleplaying', and creating a monopoly so strong that people litrially signed a month long waiting list to get a 10mil isk mining laser II module.

please keep paraniod arguements about dev theft from sidetracking this Topic, when it should be focused on the relevent issues -
- Fanfest QA & devs responses on bpos not being Touched
- Community confidence in Fanfest QA resulting in investments of years of profit for bpo
- Requests of new players who think theres a problem that is 'ruining the market'.

what CSM candidates are happy with the current situation, and those that want change, how would you see it happen?


Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.15 13:24:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Esmenet on 15/05/2008 13:24:46
Originally by: Joe

He chose to steal 5 bpos from the 20,000 that were seeded and it was tracked and fixed. It didnt ruin the T2 lottery, Forum Propaganda did.



CCP biggest mistake was admitting that it happened. They should have just fixed it quietly. Then we would not have this neverending tinfoilhattery that is so common on these forums. It hurts the game far more than the insignificant issue with those bpo's.

Moridrex
Posted - 2008.05.15 14:50:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Daransee
[Would you like to tell us you've never heard about the Lottery-BoB case?
Well just search in Wikipedia for eve-online and read the toppic "Developer misconduct".



Oh I'm well aware of that issue. Unfortunately I don't see it as a reason to nerf the collectors and people who legitimately won their BPO's.

The problem is, I could just as easily assume that the Dev's have handed out other items such as T1 BPO's with maxxed out ME/PE or at least decent levels of them; are we going to ask that all T1 BPO's be nerfed for this? Or we could assume that the dev's are or have handed out cap ships to their alliance buddies...

Maybe the assumptions there are ridiculous, but the assumption is left open since they have proved in the past to have done other things. This changes the topic from 'nerf t2 bpo' to 'nerf devs'...and while dev conduct is certainly a cause for concern, I highly doubt CCP is going to let the CSM or player base do anything about that. ;) I try to ignore it to a point because even though it does affect the game, there is nothing you can do about it...and there aren't any good gaming alternatives to EVE IMO.

Therefore the BoB incident is to me a moot point on this topic. Since it leaves one to wonder what else said dev might have given himself or his alliance, or any dev might have given anyone for that matter...

I still see the collector profession as the strongest reason NOT to remove T2 BPO's. Everyone's reasons pro removal that mirror the anti-removal rather cancel each other out. Since it has already been shown that they have a minimal impact on the market, removing them would only help the "I didn't get one" whiners (Who don't want to hear "work hard, save your isk, and buy one...they're rare!") and definitely would hurt the "I worked, made billions of isk, bought a rare item, and now it's been deleted by whiners" crowd.

Juang Mao
Posted - 2008.05.15 16:51:00 - [99]
 

Edited by: Juang Mao on 16/05/2008 12:12:27
From a different view,

I dont own, and in over 4 years of playing have never owned a Tech II BPO. I spent (like so many others) a lot of time and hundreds of millions of isk in the old 'lottery' and science agent system. (Buying Science graduates at 1-5m each) in hopes of some luck. As with 99.9% of the player base, i failed. That said i would be in favour of introducing a whole new system of BPO purchase or alteration of invention / production; For the following reasons....

Any BPO, researched in labs will ALWAYS produce at a lower cost than the market (baring some bad expamples such as drones, or t2 missiles used to be before 'ccp alterations')

The Larger Alliances & Uber wealthy players control the markets for t2 components (as well any number of BPO's) - as such they can manipulate the market to their own desires and effectively kill off the invention market - as has been seen in some areas)

The current BPO owners will be the only ones willing to keep them ingame. (if they make so little profit as suggested, why have the kept them instead of selling them as soon as possible?)

In order to reduce the cost of invention (to save brining in a new 'BPO system' simply end all the player based monopolies on Datacores, Chips, T2 composties etc by making them npc based only, or by seeding extra ways for 'anyone' to get hold of such items (via exploration, scanning, high sec moon mining, and even mission rewards). As a result the invention costs will drop and more products will hit the market. This is afterall what invention was supposed to bring- More products at a lower price, for those not keeping up.

Failing that, invention itself should undergo some changes to increase the number of runs / reduce the negative ME on BPOS, or some such effect to level the divide.

Surely this would cover the majority, as i am certain that all candidates are aware that not everyone can be made happy all at the same time.

Edit - Question for the candidates -

Instead of supporting or discussing the removal of T2 BPO's, would any candidate consider changes to the seeding of Datacore, Decryptor & composites to reduce the afore mentioned monopolies and reduce costs to manufacturers?

Black Kat
Caldari
Seven Deadly Sinz
Posted - 2008.05.15 18:13:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: LuvTheMonkey
Edited by: LuvTheMonkey on 15/05/2008 05:57:36
Aesynil,

I've done something similar, but since I had nothing to do tonight, I've gone more in depth. The following is an analysis based off of the aforementioned Hulk BPO which sold for 75 billion. All of the prices for materials are based off of Jita for minerals and advanced materials. All Tech2 components will be manufactured by their own BPOs, and I can show cost data in another post if someone wants it.

Let's take the Hulk BPO, and get it to ME10/PE10 (which, even with maxed research skills and a POS to research in, will take over 2 months to get to that point). In one month, that Hulk BPO can manufacture 33 Hulks, each of which will cost 35,131,529.36 isk to build. Total cost for that production run is 1,159,340,468.88 isk. In my stomping grounds of Metropolis, Hulks have been hovering around 97 million isk in the daily averages, so we'll use that. 33 Hulks at that price will sell for a total of 3,201,000,000 isk, leaving profits for a month's work on that BPO at 2,041,659,531.12 isk. Taking all of that cash, it will take 37 months to pay off the Hulk BPO.

Now let's take that 75 billion isk that COULD have been spent on a Hulk BPO, and invest every cent into inventing Hulks. 5 billion isk will buy you 2 Covetor BPOs to make copies, a POS, labs, and fuel to do your work, and an Incognito Ship Data Interface, leaving you with a full 70 billion ISK to buy datacores and decryptors. 8 Gallente Starship Engineering and Mechanical Engineering datacores will run you about 3,775,000 isk, and the Gallente 9run -2 ME +1 ME 60% chance decryptor (Symbiotic Figures) around 30,000,000 isk. Taking those combined as the cost of a single Hulk invention job, and dividing it into 70,000,000,000 (zeroes for emphasis this time), you can pay for 2,058 Hulk invention jobs.

Shocked

Now obviously you won't succeed a large percentage of the time. Using a character with 4/4/4 invention skills, the Symbiotic Figures decryptor (chosen because it gives the best overall profit per Hulk BPC created - detailed figures available upon request), and the current invention formula running around the forums as of late, one will likely see 1 successful job out of every seven. Given the pool of 2058 possible jobs with that investment, one would get 294 10 run, -6ME, -3PE Hulk BPCs - more than enough to keep a small industrial corp busy for an entire month, considering that you can build 2,940 Hulks!

A -6ME Hulk costs 47,422,552.69 isk to build.
2,940 -6ME Hulks costs a grand total of 139,422,304,908.60 isk
2,940 -6ME Hulks at my Metropolis average will sell for (all told) 285,180,000,000.00 isk
2,940 -6ME Hulks will show a profit of 145,757,695,091.40 isk.

For those who do not like T2 BPOs (or at least, do not like Hulk BPOs), I'm failing to see a problem here.

In my eyes, the T2 BPOs out there fill a need. Not every module, ship, and rig is worth inventing - the volumes those kind of items sell don't justify the investment and time, which (in my eyes) would hold true even without Tech2 BPOs existing. Those BPOs ensure those kind of items are available. On the flip side, there are numerous items worth inventing even with BPOs in existence. I own no Tech2 BPOs, and currently I am planning on starting invention and production of a couple modules which will sell, and will sell well above invention costs. All it takes is market research and math (Excel helps a lot!).
Quote:


But what you keep failing to put in, is that you still have a 75B BPO. Granted it isn't ISK in hand, but just like an investment, everything you make off that BPO is profit. Cause at any moment you can again sell that BPO for 75B. Where the inventor no longer has the 75B of initiail investment. You basically bought a stock that is making you ISK and you can sell that stock any minute.


Aesynil
Caldari
The Unit...
Posted - 2008.05.15 19:56:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
Originally by: Aesynil
[
I would make 7.5B in that week, assuming I was capable of getting those same returns on a wider scale. THat's 7B more ISK, by using those funds elsewhere, compared to the BPO.


Your example broke because of the assumption I'm afraid. Profit margins, prices and simple amount of work/selling that can be done is not linear to investment.



You're quite right, I agree with that statement entirely. Unless you know -very- well what you're doing, you CAn't effectively use 75B on the market. My current market can barely take that 2B investment, without watching my orders 24/7 for undercutting. That's why t2 BPO's come into play. They make absouloutely horrid returns for the investment necessary, but when you possess that much ISK, low-returns become more and more common. Look at Market Discussion and the IPO's, and the number of people who invest billions of ISK just to get 5% returns. If I had 75B, I'd have no clue what to do with it. Most of it would end up sitting around.

This is where T2 bpo's really come into the game. Yes, it's an investment, and in an ideal state, you can sell it back for what you bought it for. Buy it, keep it for a month, then sell it back with your 2B profit.

On the other hand, you can take that 75B, and invest it into an IPO that pays out 5% interest, and make more profit. Or you can take that 75B, invest it into invention, and probally -double- your investment over a few months, instead of getting a 3% return over those few months.

T2 bpo's are an investment. That's why people get them. They're a -somewhat- reliable investment, that offers you a fair chance at making some measure of profit. If you have 10B in your pocket, and work for a month, you can make the same, if not more profit, then what this 75B BPO probally generates for the owner. But when you have 200B ISK, you can keep making those returns off of what funds you can really use, and everything extra, you buy things like this, to generate funds, even if they're horrid funds. If you truly feel strongly about the removal of T2 bpo's, I would suggest one thing. Take this discussion onto the MArket Discussion forum. Ask for a comparison between Invention and T2 bpo's, and ask how many believe they should be taken out of the game.

The short answer that I've seen is a simple no. They don't control T2 prices any longer. Invention does. Although if you don't factor in the price of the BPO into production costs, they're capable of amazing margins, when that price IS considered, their margins are abyssmal. Their only true purpose at this point, to my perception, is an investment with people who have too much cash in their pocket, that they really can't effectively use it any longer.

Think about it from this angle. If you assume that to receive a 3% return on your 75B BPO, you need to make a 60M profit PER production run, then producing hulks from said BPO is very nearly made at a loss for them. Invention, on the other hand, has far more modest margins, capable of making good profit on your invested ISK.

People continue to buy them because they're low work, and easy on logistics. They pay billions upon billions because it's an -investment-, not a source of real, amazing profit. It's the savings account of Eve. Throw it in there, let it generate you some cash, and you're right...When you're done, you can get it all back (Ideally). But pound for pound, you can make MORE ISK doing practically Anything else. So why do they need to be removed?

I'd like to close by again saying this: CSM forum isn't really appropriate for this thread at this point. I encourage any who feel this topic is unresolved, to take it to MD. You'll get insightful posts there (Or just every major market mind telling you you're wrong, but that's the risk of the forums. Wear something flame-******ant.) I'm done with this topic, until I see it there. Take care, folks.

Madscience
Posted - 2008.05.15 22:21:00 - [102]
 

Edited by: Madscience on 16/05/2008 03:24:33
Edited by: Madscience on 15/05/2008 23:04:27
Edited by: Madscience on 15/05/2008 22:29:08
Edited by: Madscience on 15/05/2008 22:26:58
Edited by: Madscience on 15/05/2008 22:23:00
Mechanical $300,000.00
Gallente Starship $193,000.00
Covetor BPC $8,000,000.00x10run bpc


Decryptor Run Modifier ME Mod PE Mod Prob Invention ME PE 100 trials
Collision 0 3 3 0.3 1 -1 -1 30
Test Report 1 2 5 0.32 2 -2 -2 32
Engagement Plan 2 1 4 0.27 3 -3 0 27
Symbiotic 9 -2 1 0.16 10 -6 -3 16
Stolen Formula 4 -1 2 0.49 5 -5 1 49
HULK BPO x x x x x 10 10 46

Decryptor Cost Datacore Total Investment
$5,099,999.99 $3,944,000.00 $1,054,399,999.00
$13,050,020.00 $3,944,000.00 $1,849,402,000.00
$13,400,000.00 $3,944,000.00 $1,884,400,000.00
$28,499,999.99 $3,944,000.00 $3,394,399,999.00
$59,000,000.00 $3,944,000.00 $6,444,400,000.00
x x $75,000,000,000.00


Production Cost Profit ROI
$43,262,250.00 $1,552,132,500.00 147.21%
$45,243,647.00 $1,592,203,296.00 86.09%
$47,341,934.00 $1,286,767,782.00 68.29%
$53,395,151.00 $665,677,584.00 19.61%
$51,416,798.00 $2,135,576,898.00 33.14%
$39,395,841.00 $2,557,791,314.00 3.41%


*all prices are current jita market
*calc based on lvl 4 invention skills
*assume perfect probability for 100 trials Very Happy
*total invention investment is 100trialsx10jobsx(decryptor+datacore+covetorbpc)
*collision run is only use 1run covetor bpc with approx 1.5m not 8m like others
*it takes inventors 42days to do 100 trials while a hulk bpo can produce 46 hulks with the same time period
*42days calc is the time it takes to do 100 trials, so by the time you finish 100 trials and produce the bpc, hulk bpo can produce double amount of 46
*profit is calc by (95m-prodcost)*49 for stolen formula (probability result under 100 trial column)

From the probability and ROI data, inventors have to use stolen formula to compete with hulk bpo. It takes hulk bpo approx 30cycle (3yrs) to get back 100% ROI while inventors can either can 3% per cycle or have to do 30cycle like hulk bpo to get 100% ROI. The big diff is that inventor gamble 70b to get just 49 hulk bpc while hulk bpo make an investment. Now stop deceiving players about 3% ROI of T2 BPO b/c it is more worst for inventors after 30cycles....they get nothing to keep Evil or Very Mad

* and dont even talk about only inventors can mass supply the goods b/c they have to invest 10x to mass supply the goods.

*I stand corrected my calc was for 1000jobs. From the corrected data, the inventor will get a 33% ROI with 7b capital. In case you get some bad luck from 10% success to 100%, you will make from 2.1b to 64b while the hulk bpo can make 76.7b in 30 cycles (3yrs). So what is the diff? The diff is if you get money, you can make a 100% safe investment while the inventors have to gamble for it. I think that is what make people feel uneasy about the T2 BPO Embarassed

LuvTheMonkey
Minmatar
Infinite Monkeys Foundation
Posted - 2008.05.16 01:46:00 - [103]
 

Madscience,

My data conflicts with your in multiple ways, but I'll get into most of it when I get home from work. However, I wanted to quickly point this out:

Originally by: Madscience

The big diff is that inventor gamble 70b to get just 49 hulk bpc while hulk bpo make an investment.



With your statement that:

Originally by: Madscience

*total invention investment is 100trialsx10jobsx(decryptor+datacore+covetorbpc)



and the costs you are quoting, I have to assume this means you are doing 1000 invention jobs. With a 0.49 probability on the stolen formula decryptor, you should get 490 Hulk BPCs

Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Posted - 2008.05.16 11:52:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Daransee


...My Main Problem with T2 BPO is that the BoB case might not be the only one... So how do u like to fix this problem?...



Let's just assume this is the case or let the CSM audit logs [yeah right] of how the prints came to be where they are, surely there's a way to trace such a valuable commodity!?

As for how to fix the BoB problem, mass confiscation of their goods, disband the alliance, there are lots of things that could be done to the right people but weren't. Lashing out at everyone else for what you think is justice is just plain reactionary and won't solve anything.

Taking out tech II BPOs would be a big screw you to my mission running years, read plural and a major ****ing on my heritage, what gives you the right?

My people doing invention makes far more money than I do with my tech II BPOs and no I was never in any cartel.




Scagga Laebetrovo
Failure Assured
Posted - 2008.05.16 12:00:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Originally by: Daransee


...My Main Problem with T2 BPO is that the BoB case might not be the only one... So how do u like to fix this problem?...



Let's just assume this is the case or let the CSM audit logs [yeah right] of how the prints came to be where they are, surely there's a way to trace such a valuable commodity!?

As for how to fix the BoB problem, mass confiscation of their goods, disband the alliance, there are lots of things that could be done to the right people but weren't. Lashing out at everyone else for what you think is justice is just plain reactionary and won't solve anything.

Taking out tech II BPOs would be a big screw you to my mission running years, read plural and a major ****ing on my heritage, what gives you the right?

My people doing invention makes far more money than I do with my tech II BPOs and no I was never in any cartel.




Don't cry, you don't own anything in Eve, it belongs to CCP. They have the right to do whatever they want with it.

Gearbox Whizbang
Dark Intentions Fullfilled
Posted - 2008.05.16 13:14:00 - [106]
 

As a reconciliation suggestion, why not consider the amount of research on the npc bpo from which the inventable bpc was copied in the final figure of material/production levels?

As it currently stands, the invented t2 bpc generates the same way regardless of the bpc from which it came so a person with nothing invested in the creation of a particular ship or mod does just as well as someone with fully vested equiptment represented by a heavily researched t1 bpo. This makes investing any time on efficiency meaningless in consideration of the t2 markets. Allowing t1 bpo copies from highly researched bpos to affect the quality of the invented t2 bpc will make the researched NPC bpos become meaningful again in a way that they really have never been before (at least during my time in Eve) and will present an "upgrade" path for people that are serious about manufacturing as compared to merely dabbling in invention.


Breha Organa
Posted - 2008.05.18 17:53:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Aesynil
I'd like to close by again saying this: CSM forum isn't really appropriate for this thread at this point. I encourage any who feel this topic is unresolved, to take it to MD. You'll get insightful posts there (Or just every major market mind telling you you're wrong, but that's the risk of the forums. Wear something flame-******ant.) I'm done with this topic, until I see it there. Take care, folks.


Here's what I would like to see... when the CSM is chosen and they have their own forum for discussions like these, start a thread and link to the relevant threads in Market Discussion, Science (R&D), wherever discussions about tech II bpos and invention have already taken place... and if someone takes the time to search out the "decent" discussions, links them in the CSM area... I will take the time to read them carefully and take all ideas into consideration.

My initial feelings on this is that the current tech II bpos that are in the game need to remain in game, and that as the number of active players in EVE increases, the amount of tech II bpos should also increase proportionally... by either seeding them in Empire and 0.0 or something... but keep the number of Tech II BPOS in a constant ratio with the number of active players.

That said... I have had multiple discussions with people about the invention process of bpcs... and all of the minor adjustments that will help make inventing much less of a hassle and more worthwhile. Again, I think the forums are the place to air out ideas of how to improve this part of the game. As a manufacturer/inventor myself, I am very much aware of the struggles my corp has faced with regard to its own Tech II production.

Let's hear suggestions, and I will make it a point to frame it all in a cohesive, succint presentation to the rest of CSM in the form of a proposal. In my view, this is how the council will function best, when each of us takes "charge" of a hot topic, gathers ideas from the player base, and formulates a plan to bring to the meeting.

Etho Demerzel
Gallente
Holy Clan of the Cone
Posted - 2008.05.18 21:15:00 - [108]
 

Edited by: Etho Demerzel on 18/05/2008 21:31:07
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Originally by: Daransee


...My Main Problem with T2 BPO is that the BoB case might not be the only one... So how do u like to fix this problem?...



Let's just assume this is the case or let the CSM audit logs [yeah right] of how the prints came to be where they are, surely there's a way to trace such a valuable commodity!?

As for how to fix the BoB problem, mass confiscation of their goods, disband the alliance, there are lots of things that could be done to the right people but weren't. Lashing out at everyone else for what you think is justice is just plain reactionary and won't solve anything.

Taking out tech II BPOs would be a big screw you to my mission running years, read plural and a major ****ing on my heritage, what gives you the right?

My people doing invention makes far more money than I do with my tech II BPOs and no I was never in any cartel.




Don't cry, you don't own anything in Eve, it belongs to CCP. They have the right to do whatever they want with it.


Pathetic. I pity you. You are the subservient kind of person over whom corporations love to step.

We are the customers. We owe the game, not ccp. They are the managers. We pay them to take care of our game. By the laws of any civilized country in this World we have at least as much right over it than CCP.

So, if you don't have anything constructive or useful at all to post, please shut up and go brown your nose somewhere else.

Maobih Vanire
Posted - 2008.05.18 22:19:00 - [109]
 

Edited by: Maobih Vanire on 18/05/2008 23:21:29
Edited by: Maobih Vanire on 18/05/2008 22:27:24
i don't agree with what your saying about drones at minimum, building drones via invention actually are similar item requirements due to amounts needed and rounding of amounts. at least for the ones that i have done. if decryptors were at a price that it made sense it would only improve this.

and really don't agree with your answer to 2, pre invention prices for t2 in some cases (eg:vagabonds) were way out of hand, and invention (imo) was what brought the prices down. imo, now with invention in the game, the t2 bpo owners just follow the market price, if they can make a profit, and are not the stabilizers or price setters.

Originally by: Omber Zombie

1. Currently certain t2 items (mostly drones and ammo, but some mods/ships too) are pointless to invent due to the price of decryptors/datacores making the final output base cost far above what people are willing to pay for them as well as inventors being able to use those same datacore/decryptors to invent far more profitable items. Having t2 bpo's in circulation means these items are available to the market.

2. This is obviously not great for inventors, but due to the amount of those BPO's being in circulation, the prices are kept low due to competition and until the invention requirements are looked at and evaluated, there is no way those items would be sold on the market as no-one would bother to invent them. So, it helps everyone except inventors, and depending on your POV, even the inventors as they can concentrate on other areas.

edit: sorry, the forum ate this bit

The rest of the t2 bpo's act as a stabilizer for the market meaning that they act as a baseline for prices where invention provides the bulk of the product. The bpo's only produce a small percentage of the items available, and the way the eve market works, they are not as profitable as most people assume. The eve market works on volume of sales, which invention produced items far outstrips the bpo produced items. So while the BPO's can produce the items slightly cheaper, the volume is limited and that price gap stops invention from becoming non-viable due to people undercutting the finished product to neg-profitability.

What would happen if BPO's were removed? not much other than certain items not being produced and everything else having it's availability based on cycles of what is the most profitable item to invent at that time.

So, the TL;DR - T2 BPO's have a stabilizing effect on the economy.

Maobih Vanire
Posted - 2008.05.18 22:37:00 - [110]
 

Edited by: Maobih Vanire on 18/05/2008 23:28:34
as with prior posters, i would love to see proof that "T2 BPO's are stabilizing the market" pre-invention prices for some items were way out of hand, if anything the t2 bpo created cartels and higher pricing. i don't see how in the current situation that they would be price stabilizers.

no one has pointed out that bpos are researchable so that you can actually have a t2 bpo of a mining crystal (for example) at 300ME in a rather short time, where as a t2 inventor of a t2 crystal has to deal with ME that is no were near that. this is true with any t2 bpo, some taking unreasonable amounts of time thou, if it becomes difficult to make a profit you can actually up the ME of the bpo.

also, people seem to be focusing on current purchase prices for t2 bpo. people that got and kept their bpo, made no investment (other then time based) in getting the bpo.

Originally by: LaVista Vista
You don't get it, do you?

If it wasn't because T2 BPO's are stabilizing the market, without making anybody hugely rich.

Lets implement a new rule: You can't answer a post before you have proved that you understood what the other person said. Sounds fun? Cool

Jurgen Cartis
Caldari
Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
Posted - 2008.05.19 08:29:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Maobih Vanire

no one has pointed out that bpos are researchable so that you can actually have a t2 bpo of a mining crystal (for example) at 300ME in a rather short time, where as a t2 inventor of a t2 crystal has to deal with ME that is no were near that. this is true with any t2 bpo, some taking unreasonable amounts of time thou, if it becomes difficult to make a profit you can actually up the ME of the bpo.



ME 300. A complete waste of time and proof enough for me that you don't know what you are talking about.

Originally by: Maobih Vanire

also, people seem to be focusing on current purchase prices for t2 bpo. people that got and kept their bpo, made no investment (other then time based) in getting the bpo.



Yeah, the lotto sucked, we know. But unless you want to go back and hunt down the original owners of all the BPOs and yank whatever they received for them, it doesn't matter. Most current owners have sunk significant capital (which is not available for other projects) into their BPOs.

Toramii
Le Moulin Rouge
Posted - 2008.05.19 09:50:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Daransee
...Since yet no one said somthing against the bitter taste of owning a T2 BPO that might not be legal ingame. And i guess it is one of the strongest arguments for a removal.


Since when is speculating about what may or may not have happened some years ago a 'strong' argument for removing 'all' T2 BPO's from the game Question

CCP investigated the T20 matter and the forums played it to death already. The incident left a bad taste in all our mouths but surely its time to move on ...

I for one would rather see the CSM's devote their time to discussing bigger issues and promoting / championing new ideas to make the game we love better (e.g. 0.0 POS warfare changes, breaking up blobs, getting people into low sec, delayed 'local' chat with automated scanner tools (modules?), improving roleplay options, bounty hunting, smuggling, ...) Very Happy

Hamfast
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.19 19:57:00 - [113]
 

I am a small time inventor and industry guy, I do R&D for Data Cores and buy Decrypters... from what I have found, Invention is not it's all cracked up to be... not that I am going to stop doing it, I will just be more selective...

I wanted a Basilisk, so I bought a Osprey BPO, made copies, bought the Caldari Ship Data Cores (Standing is way to low to get the agents to talk to me) used the Mech Engineering Data Cores I got form the R&D agents, bought 10 Decrypters (Tuning +3/+3)... 10 copies, 10 attempts, 2 succeeded... ME/PE are -1/-1…

Price the parts so I can build it... 1.5 million ISK more then I can buy the ship... Low and behold, the owner of the Basilisk BPO sells BPC's in Jita (5 and 10 run) with ME and PE on the plus side...

Every ISK I spent toward that Basilisk was a loss for me... there is no way I can compete as long as the owner of the BPO keeps his profits down... (This is where the market is controlled, as long as the T2 BPO owner is willing to profit less per sale, they own the market, they get greedy and inventors will step in.)

Also, Parts… if you have access to the items you need to create the parts, you can save a tad bit more… again, so much for the small corp…

Do I want him to lose his BPO? Not only no but HELL NO... all I want is a chance to compete... I would like to have a chance to get a BPO... make the chance miniscule, based on invention and the "Quality" of the BPO (T1) used to make the copies (Higher ME/PE = Higher chance) make the "Quality" of the T1 BPC used matter (1/10th the ME/PE) on the quality of the T2 BPC created... perhaps more…

Toramii
Le Moulin Rouge
Posted - 2008.05.19 23:07:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Hamfast
... Price the parts so I can build it... 1.5 million ISK more then I can buy the ship... Low and behold, the owner of the Basilisk BPO sells BPC's in Jita (5 and 10 run) with ME and PE on the plus side...



Every ISK I spent toward that Basilisk was a loss for me... there is no way I can compete as long as the owner of the BPO keeps his profits down... (This is where the market is controlled, as long as the T2 BPO owner is willing to profit less per sale, they own the market, they get greedy and inventors will step in.)

Do I want him to lose his BPO? Not only no but HELL NO... all I want is a chance to compete... I would like to have a chance to get a BPO... make the chance miniscule, based on invention and the "Quality" of the BPO (T1) used to make the copies (Higher ME/PE = Higher chance) make the "Quality" of the T1 BPC used matter (1/10th the ME/PE) on the quality of the T2 BPC created... perhaps more…


Maybe a better question to ask is did CCP make the entry level for invention too low?

  • I'll think you'll find that if a BPO owner could raise the sell prices to increase profit he would but invention has flooded the market.
  • Its also possible the BPO owner has built up a stockpile of T2 product which are not shifting fast enough so he is now resorting to selling BPC's to maximise revenue. Given the long copy time its a very inefficient way to maximise the profit from a T2 BPO and is the last thing a BPO owner wants to do.
  • Adding more T2 BPO's isnt going to solve the problem of market oversupply. (Look at the T1 market)


What are peoples thoughts on trying to improve T2 profitability by decreasing oversupply?

Some methods CCP might employ are ...

1) Decrease invention costs and invention chance?
2) Increase invention lab slot times (easiest solution)?
3) Reduce the number of invention slots in station and POS labs?

Remember for many T2 lines, the number of T2 BPO's is not capable of supplying the market, your main competition and price drivers are your fellow inventors ugh

I'll add some of the negative side effects in a another post as its getting late unless someone wants to jump in first Wink

Jakke Logan
Caldari
F Off And Die
Posted - 2008.05.20 17:02:00 - [115]
 

How about this solution: Make BPO's obtainable through invention, ie: make it a rare (but possible) outcome of invention that instead of a T2 BPC, you get a BPO.

That way BPO's will still be obtainable and the advantage the super filthy rich have by hoarding the now unobtainable BPOs will be nullified.

Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
Posted - 2008.05.20 21:57:00 - [116]
 

I find this whole debate very interesting, particularly since I've both won T2 BPOs in the past and been active in the T2 BPO trading market, but also because my primary use of game time has been in research and manufacture in general, including invention.

As a T2 BPO owner, of course I would not want T2 BPOs to be removed. The ones I won via the lottery were the result of long hours of training, working up standings, doing R&D agent missions -- often requiring me to move through low sec space and put my assets (ships, modules, clones, etc.) at risk. I was luckier than most, obviously, because I did win at least once. I worked the system as best I could, but at the end of the day, it was all a gamble. Believe it or not, I do not know anyone at CCP, and never have. I would definitely feel unjustly punished if a vocal segment of the EVE population successfully campaigned for the removal of my T2 BPOs.

I also never thought the lottery was a particularly good system, but seriously, it's not the only one in the game you could say that about, by any means. While it existed, those who won BPOs legally didn't do anything that deserves special punishment.

Let's put this in perspective. If you built or bought a cap ship, how happy would you be if CCP suddenly removed it, or made it so it would vanish after x number of days (which is what making BPOs into long-run BPCs would do)? Would it matter to you if it was for no reason at all or if it was because some tiny percentage of the cap ships in the game were obtained through hacks and CCP could not determine which ones? It probably wouldn't matter, because in the end, you legally obtained the cap ship, and did some amount of "work" to get it, whether you bought all the necessary prints and mined all the materials, or just sold time codes for isk.

THAT is what T2 BPO removal is akin to.


I have yet to hear a proposal that would adequately compensate legal T2 BPO winners/buyers for their loss, and most removal advocates apparently wouldn't mind if there was no attempt at compensation at all. Of course, most of those advocating removal don't own T2 BPOs. On the other hand, many T2 BPO holders did indeed advocate the removal of the lottery system and creation of some more "fair" method. CCP came up with a solution, and even if many were not satisfied, they did at least address the issue.

Again, the lottery system was flawed, but punishing a significant portion of the player base retroactively because of one known case of abuse within CCP that had nothing to do with other T2 BPO owners would be a much bigger blunder than the lottery ever was.

If I could have one wish granted regarding this entire issue, it would be that everyone in the game could know exactly which T2 BPOs were illegally obtained, because that is perhaps the strongest motivator I've seen from those who want T2 BPOs removed. Unfortunately, there will always be those who won't believe the truth even if they are given it. The other motivator is the perceived inequity or poor design of the lottery system, and that has been addressed.

Hamfast
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.20 22:58:00 - [117]
 

Edited by: Hamfast on 20/05/2008 22:58:37
Originally by: Mack Dorgeans

Useful information



Mack,

As a T2 BPO Owner, who spent all those long hours doing all the R&D things and were lucky to get a T2 BPO... do you think I should not be given the same opportunity?

I have 4 (working on the 5th) R&D agents, I do the missions every day and so on... but because you found Eve a few years before I did, you had the ability to benefit from the lottery that you say is flawed... then again, I guess I can say I had the chance, I was doing R&D missions when the Lottery was dropped... but like so many others, I did not get one of the T2 BPO's...

You asked for way to tell if any BPO's were obtained illegally... personally, I suspect that anyone that who is determined to think there is wrong doing on CCP's part beyond what we know about would not believe the data in any case...

I think the number of Inactive and Lost T2 BPO's would be more useful... where inactive may exist but have not been used in the past few months and lost just no longer exists.

Raknor
Amarr
Ghost Data
Posted - 2008.05.20 23:02:00 - [118]
 

Edited by: Raknor on 20/05/2008 23:32:01
The issue at hand is the inability to access more of a given item in the game if we so choose and not allowing for a truly free floating economy that we all are used to in Eve. So let's put the whole T2 BPO issue to rest by giving inventors the ability to create T2 BPO's. Simply adding a 1% chance to any successful invention would be as bad the initial lottery was as the amount of initial investment doesn't equate to the potential reward. It would be necessary in any future system to make it so cost prohibitive that realistically, like the T1 BPO's, it takes forever to make a return on your initial investment and thus maintain a potential market for BPC inventors.

A place to “start” with making it cost prohibitive is to require a T1 BPO(yes the BPO not a BPC) to be used in the invention process of T2 BPO's and for the ME and PE to start at a lower point then equivalent BPC invention does. This same model could be used as we move into T3 production. BPC's may be upgraded to higher Tech BPC's and BPO's may be upgraded to higher Tech BPO's through invention at a risk of loosing all of your initial investment.

Mack Dorgeans
Camelot Innovations
Posted - 2008.05.21 01:11:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Hamfast
Edited by: Hamfast on 20/05/2008 22:58:37
Mack,

As a T2 BPO Owner, who spent all those long hours doing all the R&D things and were lucky to get a T2 BPO... do you think I should not be given the same opportunity?

I have 4 (working on the 5th) R&D agents, I do the missions every day and so on... but because you found Eve a few years before I did, you had the ability to benefit from the lottery that you say is flawed... then again, I guess I can say I had the chance, I was doing R&D missions when the Lottery was dropped... but like so many others, I did not get one of the T2 BPO's...

...

I think the number of Inactive and Lost T2 BPO's would be more useful... where inactive may exist but have not been used in the past few months and lost just no longer exists.



Personally, I never thought BPO seeding should be removed altogether, and in fact, I suspect all the mechanics are still in place, so there aren't any guarantees there won't be a lottery in the future. However, if we go by the current CCP design trend, it seems to me BPOs are presently not reseeded if lost or stuck on unused accounts, and invention is the only way to build anything that didn't already have a BPO before the end of the last lottery, particularly all the future tech 2 (or tech 3 -- is that dead now, or still on the horizon?) that gets implemented.

BPOs have become, essentially, rare items. From my perspective, they're like a Guardian-Vexor. I think they were all handed out before or soon after I started playing, and now if there are any left, they are much more valuable to collectors than their actual worth as ships.

I've long felt this game is not particularly newbie-friendly, so yeah, among other things, I would prefer T2 BPOs to be available in some way so new players have a shot, too. The problem has been that I never really heard of a T2 BPO seeding method that was any better than the lottery, just biased in a different way. I do sort of like the idea that an inventor might get a BPO instead of a BPC someday. If that's ever put in, though, it would have to be EXTREMELY rare, either only when a BPO is destroyed or lost, or maybe one per item per year. If that were implemented, I'd argue that all the items that currently are invention-only should be added to that pool, and trickled in up to the limit over a term of several years.

Still, this assumes people generally want T2 BPOs seeded, which is not what some are arguing for at all, but rather the extreme opposite.

By the way, I still maintain that the lottery was not as bad as some like to think. I talked two corpmates of mine into doing their own R&D before the last major wave that (I think) doubled the total T2 BPOs per item. They were skeptical, but you know what? They did the necessary work and took the gamble, and they both ended up winning one BPO each. One was a Heavy Energy Neutralizer II, which the player built some of, then sold for a nice payday. The other player got a Heretic BPO, which our corp paid him for (generously based on the value at the time). We recently sold this and reinvested in another BPO so we could stick with Gallente production.

On the other hand, a former corpmate of mine, back in my first player corp, started doing R&D around the same time I did. He didn't do any real work besides getting one lower-level agent running, but he won a Crane BPO during their initial lottery release. The moral of the story is, anyone had a chance at T2 BPOs during the lottery. If they didn't use R&D agents at the time, they really have no room to complain that others won BPOs.

Again, personally I think T2 BPOs should be seeded in some way. They do provide a market baseline, and some things just aren't worth inventing at times. However, the system would have to be pretty transparent due to the lack of trust some have over the past abuse.


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