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Daransee
Posted - 2008.05.14 08:28:00 - [1]
 

Whats your opinion about the amount of t2 blueprints? How do u wanna solve the problem between a worthy t2 blueprint owner and the expensive invetion user?

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.05.14 08:38:00 - [2]
 

So far, I have seen no real issue with T2 BPO's.

In fact, the way T2 BPO's affect the economy as it is now, is only good.

Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.14 08:40:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 14/05/2008 08:42:14
Keep current BPOs, and have slight amounts of them introduced to the game again through invention (not the lottery, but some new and improved system), and possibly through other mechanics (exploration, faction warfare) is my opinion.

Scagga Laebetrovo
Failure Assured
Posted - 2008.05.14 09:03:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
In fact, the way T2 BPO's affect the economy as it is now, is only good.


Interesting...I have some questions for you:

1- Please explain what the effect T2 BPOs have on the economy is, including the effect this has on inventors
2- Please explain why the effects you have listed in response to '1' are good, and assess who they are 'most' good for and 'least' good for.

Thank you.

Omber Zombie
Gallente
Frontier Technologies
Posted - 2008.05.14 09:14:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Omber Zombie on 14/05/2008 09:20:48
Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo


Interesting...I have some questions for you:

1- Please explain what the effect T2 BPOs have on the economy is, including the effect this has on inventors
2- Please explain why the effects you have listed in response to '1' are good, and assess who they are 'most' good for and 'least' good for.

Thank you.


Since I have the same opinion as LaVista, I'll answer these for you - skip to the bottom for the TL;DR

1. Currently certain t2 items (mostly drones and ammo, but some mods/ships too) are pointless to invent due to the price of decryptors/datacores making the final output base cost far above what people are willing to pay for them as well as inventors being able to use those same datacore/decryptors to invent far more profitable items. Having t2 bpo's in circulation means these items are available to the market.

2. This is obviously not great for inventors, but due to the amount of those BPO's being in circulation, the prices are kept low due to competition and until the invention requirements are looked at and evaluated, there is no way those items would be sold on the market as no-one would bother to invent them. So, it helps everyone except inventors, and depending on your POV, even the inventors as they can concentrate on other areas.

edit: sorry, the forum ate this bit

The rest of the t2 bpo's act as a stabilizer for the market meaning that they act as a baseline for prices where invention provides the bulk of the product. The bpo's only produce a small percentage of the items available, and the way the eve market works, they are not as profitable as most people assume. The eve market works on volume of sales, which invention produced items far outstrips the bpo produced items. So while the BPO's can produce the items slightly cheaper, the volume is limited and that price gap stops invention from becoming non-viable due to people undercutting the finished product to neg-profitability.

What would happen if BPO's were removed? not much other than certain items not being produced and everything else having it's availability based on cycles of what is the most profitable item to invent at that time.

So, the TL;DR - T2 BPO's have a stabilizing effect on the economy.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.05.14 09:40:00 - [6]
 

I expressed the very same thing as Omber Zombie very nicely just did.

T2 BPO's stabilizes the market, which is good for inventors, because certain things have a very high turn-around time.

In fact, there is a connection between the amount of T2 components being used in an item, and the amount of time it takes to invent it. So if we assume that the more T2 component an item uses, the more a T2 bpo can stabilize the market.

Thus, the longer time invention takes for a certain item, the more of a stabilizing effect a T2 bpo of that kind, has. This is good, in order to keep markets from fluxuating too much.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.05.14 09:41:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 14/05/2008 08:42:14
Keep current BPOs, and have slight amounts of them introduced to the game again through invention (not the lottery, but some new and improved system), and possibly through other mechanics (exploration, faction warfare) is my opinion.

Why?

There isn't exactly a need for T2 BPO's in the game. You can get hold of T2 BPO's if you want one, all the time.

Right now, I can't see any reason which could justify it, beyond personal gain. Which is limited, either way, as profits on T2 items are very limited.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.14 09:57:00 - [8]
 

And here i thought that someone was going to give me a T2 BPO. I am now quite disappointed.

But really, t2 BPO's are more or less a non-issue. They're valuable, but they are not a threat to inventors because the volume they produce is so low in comparison.

Daransee
Posted - 2008.05.14 10:10:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Daransee on 14/05/2008 10:12:37

Daransee
Posted - 2008.05.14 10:12:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
There isn't exactly a need for T2 BPO's in the game. You can get hold of T2 BPO's if you want one, all the time.[/quote



that is the point... there is no need for it cause there are already the established building lines. so why give an newbe the possibility to get one, except he earns enough money and someone is willing to sell his bpo...
Really Folks, thats the spirit of "great" alliances.
so i guess Ankhesentapemkah get's my vote.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.05.14 10:43:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Daransee

so why give an newbe the possibility to get one, except he earns enough money and someone is willing to sell his bpo...
Really Folks, thats the spirit of "great" alliances.
so i guess Ankhesentapemkah get's my vote.

I'm sorry?

A T2 BPO makes little to no isk now. If we start seeding T2 BPO's in some way, invention will be worthless.

So really, the new people doesn't need a T2 BPO, it's not in their interest either.

You have a misconception about the value of T2 BPO's, and what they can earn you. I will tell you what they are worth. 3% profit of initial investment per month. I can make that profit easily, with little isk at all.

Seeding T2 BPO's has the potential of not only make invention worthless, but also crash the markets big time.

I have never owned a T2 BPO, mind you. I wouldn't ever touch one.

Daransee
Posted - 2008.05.14 10:55:00 - [12]
 

So it is fair that those who have already on could keep them while other's will never get one?
and t2 bpo's are worthfull! i can maintain my whole corp with invention. hardly but i can. the idea of someone owning a bpo really makes me angry. it's like having an isk printing machine.
So i think that's the idea:
-You want a strong invention community... then erase all t2 bpo...
- If u don't wanna erase them then give all players the opportunity to get one through luck.
I think its quite simple as this. "we must keep the market stable" is no excuse for keeping the status quo. the market can handle itself!

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.05.14 11:17:00 - [13]
 

What you face to realize is that a T2 BPO alone can't make ANYWHERE near the profit invention can.

Seriously, do the math.

I make much more isk with invention, than I would ever do with all T2 bpo's in the world.

So no, T2 BPO's aren't an isk printing machine. Anybody who knows a bit about the market, would tell you that.

I see no reason why you would want a T2 BPO, other than personal gain. You need to look at the overall problem you wanna solve, not that you want a T2 BPO so that you can get rich.

If anything was to happen, it would be removing T2 BPO's. But it's not gonna happen.

Unless you can JUSTIFY it seeding T2 BPO's, I see no reason.

Daransee
Posted - 2008.05.14 11:37:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
You need to look at the overall problem you wanna solve, not that you want a T2 BPO so that you can get rich.

Rolling EyesYou missed the point! I don't want a T2 bpo. All I want is that all have the same opportunity.
Maybe you can explain me with your good understanding of the market where excactly a BPC earned through Invention with mostly negativ ME and PE is better than a Copy and Researchable BPO. I "really " don't get it...
Maybe cause with Invetion has more varety of produceable Items? K, that i will count in.
And u are right, ammo and drones bpo's are not very worthy. But what about a t2 frig? or a cruiser? or about t2 turrents?
And "IF" T2 Bpo's really aren't that worthy, there would no one be too upset if u remove them, right?

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.14 11:43:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 14/05/2008 11:46:16
Originally by: Daransee
All I want is that all have the same opportunity.


Anyone who has a T2 BPO could and probably does invent anyway. The opportunities are pretty much the same

Quote:
there would no one be too upset if u remove them


except people who bought them off the secondary market recently and collectors. But it could possibly have negative economic effects and isn't necessary.

Daransee
Posted - 2008.05.14 11:48:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
The opportunities are pretty much the same
Shocked
Then tell me how a newbe can get his hands on one of these BPO's without buying it?
Like i said before:
- remove t2 bpo's completely
- or implant a fair chance to get one through luck

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.14 11:55:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 14/05/2008 11:56:58
double post

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.14 11:55:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Daransee
Originally by: Goumindong
The opportunities are pretty much the same
Shocked
Then tell me how a newbe can get his hands on one of these BPO's without buying it?
Like i said before:
- remove t2 bpo's completely
- or implant a fair chance to get one through luck



Tell me how and older player can get his hands on one of these BPO's without buying them? Time travel back in time until you get the system?

The opportunities for production are the same. That doesn't mean that it happens in the same way. Buck up and try invention.

Daransee
Posted - 2008.05.14 12:19:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Goumindong

Tell me how and older player can get his hands on one of these BPO's without buying them? Time travel back in time until you get the system?


That's right. Nobody can get one for free since the lottery (a very questionable system, as far as i know) is gone. Why do u wanna keep them?

Originally by: Goumindong
Buck up and try invention.


I do... And it's fun... So why don't everyone has to do it that way?

This task is old! And the discussion about it many pages long.
My own opinion about it is to remove t2 bpo's.
From my point of view the "owners" (which are the old chars or big corps/alliances)are too stubborn to give their bpo's away for nothing.
So the only solution is to reimplant a new "lucky thing".

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.05.14 12:57:00 - [20]
 

You don't get it, do you?

If it wasn't because T2 BPO's are stabilizing the market, without making anybody hugely rich.

Lets implement a new rule: You can't answer a post before you have proved that you understood what the other person said. Sounds fun? Cool

Daransee
Posted - 2008.05.14 13:16:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Daransee on 14/05/2008 13:16:24
Well well the market would collapse and the eve universe would fade away in darkness!

I have another rule for you Vista: "If u interest in the needs of your possible voters u might get acsees to the council"
Sound fair ain't itTwisted Evil

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.05.14 13:22:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Daransee
Edited by: Daransee on 14/05/2008 13:16:24
Well well the market would collapse and the eve universe would fade away in darkness!

I have another rule for you Vista: "If u interest in the needs of your possible voters u might get acsees to the council"
Sound fair ain't itTwisted Evil


Well, I guess so.

I'm still interested in hearing what NEGATIVE impact T2 BPO's has on the game, which could justify removing T2 BPO's, which could possibly destabilize the market and could justify removing assets from the players.

So far, nobody have actually managed to convince me, at least. I would love to see that argument though, as I understand what you are saying. But I don't agree with it, without further justification.

Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.14 13:31:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Daransee
Edited by: Daransee on 14/05/2008 13:16:24
Well well the market would collapse and the eve universe would fade away in darkness!

I have another rule for you Vista: "If u interest in the needs of your possible voters u might get acsees to the council"
Sound fair ain't itTwisted Evil



Why should Vista act dumb to get votes? Its a good way to make the CSM as worthless as many think it will be though.

Daransee
Posted - 2008.05.14 13:51:00 - [24]
 

Removing T2 Bpo's would higher the prices the first time for sure.

But:
Economy goes with the money. If there is more profit more People would run Inventions. So the market would regulate itself.
Beside its the best way to establish invention as an real alternative as profession. atm "it's only nice to have"
The real negativ effekt is, that highsec, lowsec and 0.0 would more depend on each other... which is positiv for me.

Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
Posted - 2008.05.14 13:58:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Soulita on 14/05/2008 14:01:55
The unresolved issue of the t2 bpos has come up repeatedly, and us such is not a non-issue.

If the pro-bpo removal players are in the right or not, is another question.

The job of the CSM, is to bring up issues for discussion with the devs.

As such I find it worrying, that not a single CSM candidate is willing to, or able to, bring up this issue from the pro-removal side. Even more concerning is that the issue might not even be brought up at all.

In principle, if the CSM fails to bring up issues the players have, including the arguments the players make (from both sides!!!!) then the CSM will be an utter failure.

Daransee
Posted - 2008.05.14 14:05:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Daransee on 14/05/2008 14:05:04
Nice one! *cheering*

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.14 14:08:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Soulita
As such I find it worrying, that not a single CSM candidate is willing to, or able to, bring up this issue from the pro-removal side.


Frankly i find it worrying that not a single CSM candidate is willing to, or able to, bring up the issue of turning off the server forever from the pro side...

Oh wait..

There really isn't a good reason to remove T2 BPOs and there are decent enough reasons to not do so. Such it will be hard to find someone arguing on the other side and there is not anything wrong with that.

Daransee
Posted - 2008.05.14 14:13:00 - [28]
 

So you (all?) have already decided which issues u don't wanna bring up?
Thas REALLY interesting!
Maybe we should start a new topic about it!Surprised

Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
Posted - 2008.05.14 14:19:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Soulita on 14/05/2008 14:22:06
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Soulita
As such I find it worrying, that not a single CSM candidate is willing to, or able to, bring up this issue from the pro-removal side.


Frankly i find it worrying that not a single CSM candidate is willing to, or able to, bring up the issue of turning off the server forever from the pro side...

Oh wait..

There really isn't a good reason to remove T2 BPOs and there are decent enough reasons to not do so. Such it will be hard to find someone arguing on the other side and there is not anything wrong with that.



Haha. I like your honest agressive answers, Goumindong.

But there is a slight difference in turning off the server argument and that of the removal of t2 bpos.

Can you see which? If not I can explain it to you.

Also, it would not be hard to find someone arguing in favour of the conversion of t2 bpos to long run bpcs, if at least one of the CSM candidates would be willing to read through the threads dealing with this problem and having a look at both sides of the argument.

Sounds like work? Hehe, sorry, but as representatives of the palyerbase you should be able to understand the issues that are being discussed.

A good candidate would even try to understand both sides of the argument, in order to be able to bring good council to CCP.

Soulita
Gallente
Inner Core
Posted - 2008.05.14 14:52:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Soulita on 14/05/2008 14:58:05
Originally by: Omber Zombie
What would happen if BPO's were removed? not much other than certain items not being produced and everything else having it's availability based on cycles of what is the most profitable item to invent at that time.


Omber Zombie, what you describe above is the normal supply-demand relationship in current market economies. Many see the supply-demand relationship as a positive or even as one of the main advantages of free, open markets.

I doubt you disagree with that principle, but please say if you do.


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