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KHEN
New Horizons
Posted - 2008.05.14 00:15:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Lurana Lay
[rant]stuff[/rant]
Summation: I'm unhappy and everyone else needs a huge nerf!Onerous fines, much higher entry level, and giant time sinks for everyone except numerically anal retentive people like me!

Schwing... and miss !


Actually, it's "I make shedloads trading, and I see ZERO reason to even TRY to invent/manufacture/whatever because there is not even a glimmer of hope of doing anything ELSE so profitable as ripping off idiots... but I feel almost sorry for them".




There the OP admits he's just a trader and that he's absolutely not involved in the area for which he asks for changes (industry)

interesting point of view...
My bit of advice : Mind of your business, don't post about things you don't do/understand, and you'll seem smarter than you are

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.05.14 00:19:00 - [32]
 

Ah... the old "better stay silent than be confirmed as a fool" ?
No thanks, I do not subscribe to that line of thought from the get-go, and besides, I consider myself smarter than most... so smart actually, that I risk appearing stupid to most (but that's their problem... if anything, I suffer from a superiority complex, not an inferiority one).

A bit of information for you though, just as a curtesy : take a look at my skills on ineve.net
Then ask yourself : has this person BEEN active as a manufacturer and/or inventor in the past or not ?


KHEN
New Horizons
Posted - 2008.05.14 00:21:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Akita T
Then ask yourself : has this person BEEN active as a manufacturer and/or inventor in the past or not ?



manufacturer certainly, but a poor one, because he has resigned and now asks for changes in the game mechanics Very Happy

Kolatha
Posted - 2008.05.14 00:22:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Taedrin

This means that the actual value of minerals is actually lower than market value. If people are willing to take an opportunity loss by using minerals to build an item and sell that item for less than the minerals are worth on the market, then that means that the value of minerals on the market is too high. Only way to stop this is to take advantage of these people's stupidity.



Thas is the most likely scenario. Those who insist on building their equipment using the market as their guide for the value of minerals are the ones who really need to rethink their process if they are trying to make a profit. Like most markets the value of minerals available is based on what the consumer will tolerate, not what the product is actually worth.

As for the "minerals are free" concept, that is an over simplification and a misunderstanding of how the typical miner/industrialist thinks. If I start the day with an empty wallet, mine a pile of minerals and sell the manufactured product for 20 mil then at the end of they day I am 20 million isk richer even if I could have sold the minerals for more on the market. That's the basics.

Now let's say I have priced my end product based on the market value of the minerals, ie I could have sold the minerals for 20 million isk instead of building something. At the end of the day I am still 20 million isk richer. The big difference now is that the guy who buys the minerals and builds the same product but buys the minerals from the market needs to sell at a higher price to make a profit. Say he sells at 22 million. At the end of the day the guy who builds from market minerals only has an extra 2 million in the pocket while the miner/industrialist has 20 million. Without some form of additional continual overhead to mining the guy who mines and sells a finished product will always be better off than the guy who builds from market minerals.

Now some would argue that minerals prices are best based on how much you could earn by ratting/missioning in the time that it takes to mine the minerals. Now because not everyone is interested in that aspect of the game the smart miner/industrialist will ignore this tripe and base their overhead costs and the final value of their product on a number of factors.

  • The cost of the blue print and how may items they need to sell at prices the market will tolerate before making back the cost of the blueprint.

  • The cost of initial setup of mining equipment (barges crystals etc) and how many products/how long before the equipment is paid for.

  • The cost of the manufacturing facility or the setup of a small industrial POS with consideration to how long before the equipment is paid off and lastly

  • The value of buying and reprocessing a shuttle.


At the end of the day there are just people out there who are willing to accept lower profits and longer return times on their investments and if my wallet is fatter at the end of the day than when I started then it is not a "losing process". The problem is not that some people are selling "below costs", the problem is that those who are complaining are just wanting instant profit and are unable to comprehend why others are willing to be more patient.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.05.14 00:31:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: KHEN
Originally by: Akita T
Then ask yourself : has this person BEEN active as a manufacturer and/or inventor in the past or not ?

manufacturer certainly, but a poor one, because he has resigned and now asks for changes in the game mechanics Very Happy

What's "poor" about making anywhere from 1% to 5% net profit of volumes of materiel it would take 20 to 30 "full factory line" industry alts to manufacture ?
If I'd be focusing on manufacture, at best, I could be able to get a tiny fraction of the profits I can get with pure trading.

I'm merely complaining because it's heavily imbalanced. IN MY FAVOUR. It's not challenging at all Twisted Evil

Masu'di
Es and Whizz
Hedonistic Imperative
Posted - 2008.05.14 00:38:00 - [36]
 

mining and industry are hobbies in eve, not professions.

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2008.05.14 00:40:00 - [37]
 

Akita you big noob you said you wanted to be flamed, so here it is...

Oh, and not everyone in the manufacturing game is as rich as you, so give them a break and some chance of earning an honest buck too. Mass production would price out smaller producers - realism, yes... but fairness in this game, no.

Razz

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.05.14 00:45:00 - [38]
 

ITT: Akita T loses his/her romantic vision of industry and carebears and starts to hate them and joins us on the dark side.

Much more fun to be on the darkside. Come and take a ride...

KHEN
New Horizons
Posted - 2008.05.14 00:48:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: KHEN on 14/05/2008 00:56:27

Originally by: Akita T
What's "poor" about making anywhere from 1% to 5% net profit of volumes of materiel it would take 20 to 30 "full factory line" industry alts to manufacture ?
If I'd be focusing on manufacture, at best, I could be able to get a tiny fraction of the profits I can get with pure trading.

I'm merely complaining because it's heavily imbalanced. IN MY FAVOUR. It's not challenging at all Twisted Evil



I finally agree with you : I suck at trading, in fact spending my day changing prices on markets by 0.01 bores me deeply, that's why I prefer to lauch a bunch of manufacturing job and go play elsewhere.

I see traders buying my stuff in bulks and it rejoyces me because it's instant fresh cash.
Sometimes I bait traders selling just a small part of a big stack at an apparent low rate and placing another stack immediately after one trader bough my stuff : Thus I make instant cash and sell my stuff at good rates considering the price war that is following between my "customers". Usually they finally sell at a lower rate that they bought, how STUPID they are, nerf traders, nerf markets, change rules to nerf price undercutting....Very Happy

about the tens of slots needed for manufacturing it's CCP's policy to restrain the number of production slots avalaible per character : it's smart from them because a serious manufacturer has to subscribe to extra accounts, it's good for EVE to have more subscribers (I have 11 active accounts).

Once more if you don't make enough cash from industry, then you might have done something wrong !

Val Vympel
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2008.05.14 01:07:00 - [40]
 

Edited by: Val Vympel on 14/05/2008 01:10:47
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
Akita you big noob you said you wanted to be flamed, so here it is...

Oh, and not everyone in the manufacturing game is as rich as you, so give them a break and some chance of earning an honest buck too. Mass production would price out smaller producers - realism, yes... but fairness in this game, no.

Razz


I agree..concerning your mass production opinion.

The mechanics of the EvE economy are not complex enough to provide a "niche" for players who would prefer to focus on quality over quantity.

The sheer volume of quantity will always make certain that the consumer has a cheap and readily available product to buy.Unfortunatly this is the only formula in EvE.

Quality unfortunatly has no platform in EvE.

This fact limits the choices of the consumer and leaves little room for the "little" guy.
If quality was a part of the equation then volume alone would be irrelevant.

If EvE had a quality component,I guarantee I could make a "career" off of one BP,T1 or otherwise it wouldn't matter.

I am sure that when CCP designed the economy,volume was of paramount importance due to the fact that this is a PvP centric game where "cheap" replacement would trump "expensive" quality products.

EvE however has taken another direction than originally inteneded...and CCP holds the "titles" to nearly all of the "quality" items in the game...named items are drops,faction gear...etc etc.

A manufacturer simply has very few options on how to differentiate themselves from the crowd.

Wink

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
Posted - 2008.05.14 01:22:00 - [41]
 

The thing that disappoints me greatly is the number of useless products.

I mean, who in there right mind goes out and manufactures XXXmm Steel plate Is, small smartbomb Is or whatever.

There's literally tonnes of scope for the market, but because of those annoying PVP balancing issues so much crap just isn't worth investing in the cheapo blueprint for.

Here's looking at you cap betteries, smartbombs, afterburners, repairers etc...Until all T1 is removed from rat drops then the market will never be as fun, varied or fluid for manufacturers that it could be.

P.S - I'm drunk too!! Very Happy *high five*

Shakuul
Caldari
RuffRyders
Axiom Empire
Posted - 2008.05.14 01:29:00 - [42]
 

OP - thats a surprisingly coherent post for a drunk person.

With some items there's actually a diseconomy of scale. If you make one reactor unit, it costs 1 ferrogel, 1 fermionic condensates, and some racial alloys. If you make 10000, it costs 10500 ferrogel, 10500 fermionic condensates, and some racial alloys (at ME 0).

But i agree on the need for an economy of scale idea.

On barriers to entry - I agree as well, as a matter of fact im training an industry alt right now that should be done in a couple months.

Originally by: Taedrin
(EDIT: Or you could be right and people are just too stupid to realise that there is an opportunity cost when you build an item with "free" minerals instead of selling those minerals at market cost. However, I would *LIKE* to think that people who produce enough T1 components to actually effect the market on any scale what so ever would be smart enough to think through the most profitable action to take...)


Good edit. I think people really are that dumb/they just 'enjoy' manufacturing...

Unfortunately the whole "EVE is a thinking man's game" isn't quite what its cut out to be. They introduce something new, and then all of the people who are paying attention and learn quickly make a killing, and then someone posts on the forums how to do it, and everyone catches on, and then everyone does it.

It will eventually happen with trading too its only a matter of time. To some extent it already has.

Originally by: Val Vympel
IMO,the problems with the economy are a matter of a lack of complexity.

Complexity would force manufacturers to specialize and compete to see who could produce superior quality mods,drones,ships..etc.

EvE's economy is large,but not complex.
Simply put...it is too vanilla.ugh


They claimed there would be complexity in T2 invention. There kind of is. Theres a large chance element which acts as a barrier to entry, but beyond that its just glorified T1 production. I don't see how any quality measures will force anyone to specialize. If it requires 20 different skills to produce the new different "quality" items, ill just make 20 different alts and make them all.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.05.14 01:43:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 14/05/2008 01:45:55
Originally by: Shakuul
OP - thats a surprisingly coherent post for a drunk person.

You should see my drunk driving then Twisted Evil
Or my drunk "anything" for that matter (I actually managed to convince some people I know that I'm psychic or somesuch while drunk... I really have no idea how I managed to do it, to be completely honest).
Kids : DO NOT try this at home. Bad ! BAD !

PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
Gallente
The Night Crew
Posted - 2008.05.14 02:05:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik on 14/05/2008 02:10:47
Originally by: Kolatha

Now let's say I have priced my end product based on the market value of the minerals, ie I could have sold the minerals for 20 million isk instead of building something. At the end of the day I am still 20 million isk richer. The big difference now is that the guy who buys the minerals and builds the same product but buys the minerals from the market needs to sell at a higher price to make a profit. Say he sells at 22 million. At the end of the day the guy who builds from market minerals only has an extra 2 million in the pocket while the miner/industrialist has 20 million. Without some form of additional continual overhead to mining the guy who mines and sells a finished product will always be better off than the guy who builds from market minerals.



This I think, is exactly the mentality that the Op is trying to get at. I manufacture and sell a high volume of t1 ships in several regions, as such I chew through quite a heafty amount of minerals a week, definately in the hundreds of millions mark.

Your analogy about the producer is inaccurate as you fail in incorporate what has become known in these forums as "opportunity cost"- you spent the ENTIRE day grinding to make 20mil, while the producer spent maybe 10-20min to achieve a profit of, say 2mil, perhaps higher. The other time was spent either blowing that profit pvping, or perhaps grinding missions, or trading. Basically the idea that your time that you spent mining was "wasted" because you could of spent it mining a higher ore, running more profitable missions etc or adding another 2% onto the profitability of your TIME by selling the minerals manufactured at a profit, rather than just at a loss.

Therefore you have cheated yourself out of substancial gain as you have not incorporated one of the most important aspects of economics that sadly gets neglected by the players of eve- the concept that they deserve compensation for their time, a wage if you will.

Time seems to have zero value to a great proportion of the playerbase. This is a mentality that CCP cant fix, it must come from an external understanding. Perhaps some people enjoy grinding, whether it be mining, ratting etc etc and that is why they dont care too much about the efficiency of it, they would prefer doing a less productive "job" that they enjoy more. Nerfing entry level production will not change this.


Hannobaal
Gallente
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.05.14 02:17:00 - [45]
 

It is easy to make a profit from manufacturing. I would go as far as to say that it is the easiest and least time consuming way of making ISK in Eve at the moment. It's pretty much the only method I use.

That said, I think adding in something that makes manufacturing large amounts of something more cost effective would be a good thing for the economy.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2008.05.14 02:33:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Anubis Xian
Let people actually make unique products.


thats what I have been thinking... the question is how to release unique products... they wouldn't do so well with the market and the "<player name> modified <item name>" would get very cluttered, or we could do <item name> +n Twisted Evil

Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2008.05.14 02:35:00 - [47]
 

Interjecting with an undercutting gripe:
If you sell for 100k+ less than the other orders in any given region on any given item, you should pretty much just drop dead. Especially when you justify it by saying that you are using the price in other regions. We manufacturers thrive on consumer ignorance, and it is foolish to not charge as much as possible.

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2008.05.14 02:36:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
The thing that disappoints me greatly is the number of useless products.

I mean, who in there right mind goes out and manufactures XXXmm Steel plate Is, small smartbomb Is or whatever.

There's literally tonnes of scope for the market, but because of those annoying PVP balancing issues so much crap just isn't worth investing in the cheapo blueprint for.

Here's looking at you cap betteries, smartbombs, afterburners, repairers etc...Until all T1 is removed from rat drops then the market will never be as fun, varied or fluid for manufacturers that it could be.

P.S - I'm drunk too!! Very Happy *high five*


i want to say they were replacing all tech 1 with meta 1 loot a while back...

oh well i enjoy mining with a raven Twisted Evil

Val Vympel
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2008.05.14 02:39:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Shakuul
They claimed there would be complexity in T2 invention. There kind of is. Theres a large chance element which acts as a barrier to entry, but beyond that its just glorified T1 production. I don't see how any quality measures will force anyone to specialize. If it requires 20 different skills to produce the new different "quality" items, ill just make 20 different alts and make them all.


The solution is not in the number of skills.
The solution rests in the complexity of the BP's and the components and minerals.

As I stated on page one of this post.

Veldpar is veldspar is veldspar...there is no variation of quality or purity..etc.

If because of superior quality materials a player could produce a superior quality product(more damage,hit points,greater % of benefit from a particular mod,drone,ship etc.)

Force is a poor word of choice...however it would strongly encourage players to specialize in a particular BP or set of BP's if they wished to market a superior quality product.

The time required to hunt down and procure the superior Veldspar for example would necessitate a more focused approach to manufacturing.

Could you still mine and manufacture the standard quality Veldspar and lower quality veldspar and mass produce inferior but relativly inexpensive products for general consumption...sure NP..you simply would be relying on quantity and greater distribution for profit versus "expensive" specialty items.

EvE however has no platform for a player who would like to "build a better spaceship".

Mind you...any advantage gained from a superior quality product should be small..as not to upset game balance.however it presents economic "niches" to be explored and exploited.

If player X produces a "second to none" superior quality Salvager 1 does that mean that the cheap mass produced Salvager 1 will not function and do the job..no of course not..it just provides the consumer who would like a slight edge on option for where to spend their ISK.

A savings of 100 ISK(or a paltry decimal point in some cases) per unit for a mod for example is simply not enough incentive for me to jump three systems to buy it when I want to outfit a ship. And this small type of incentive is all manufacturers can offer.

Cheers

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2008.05.14 02:42:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Gamer4liff
Interjecting with an undercutting gripe:
If you sell for 100k+ less than the other orders in any given region on any given item, you should pretty much just drop dead. Especially when you justify it by saying that you are using the price in other regions. We manufacturers thrive on consumer ignorance, and it is foolish to not charge as much as possible.


i think its more of a

I can make a battleship and sell it for 95million isk, or i could sell the minerals and walk away with 100million isk, and people are doing the make a battleship and sell for 95mil isk. rather than say 104mil isk and making some sort of profit.

it gets worse with t2 production and people not counting all the datacores/decryptors, components and t1 item. although they are also competing with t2 bpo holders.

Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
Majesta Empire
Posted - 2008.05.14 02:46:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton

it gets worse with t2 production and people not counting all the datacores/decryptors, components and t1 item. although they are also competing with t2 bpo holders.

Totally, I see this all the time in the T2 ship markets.

Conrad Rock
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.05.14 02:48:00 - [52]
 

Just assume in Eve everything after max skills is 100% efficient, you cannot do any better.


Grendelsbane
Posted - 2008.05.14 03:54:00 - [53]
 

It's easy to make a fat profit on tech 1 items using unresearched BPO's. All you need to do is find those hisec systems which are gateways to lowsec and 0.0, where everyone charges an arm and a leg because of the combat in the area. Prices are double there compared to anywhere else.

And then go one jump further, into the lowsec, where prices are doubled yet again. Selling stacks of 200 webbers or 20K scrams for 100,000 ISK a pop is not money to laugh at. I find that recon launchers fly off the shelves, as do unnamed tech 1 shield hardeners (for up to 100K as well).

And screw mining - melt down craplewt for minerals, and stockpile the better weapons in demand for sale in lowsec as well.

Those two things, combined with the ability to have several dozen sell orders running will net a nice little positive income without nerfing yourself with opportunity cost.

Amastat
Caldari
Blue Ring Defence
Posted - 2008.05.14 04:48:00 - [54]
 

This is the 2nd time in the past 2 weeks I have seen a Drunk Akita T Post Shocked

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2008.05.14 04:50:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Pang Grohl
My best suggestions would be:
1) Re-introduce the scaling of factory install fees with demand, and increase minimum per job fees.
2) Remove player manufactured goods from loot tables. Possibly including player wrecks.
3) Make the most mineral efficient blue prints waste at least 1% round to the next integer for all consumable ingredients. This should make bulk jobs the only way to get the least wastage, with better skills allowing for smaller increments in job size.



I agree with this. Particularly removing player built items from loot tables. Give manufacturing lines more things worth building and you lessen chances for over-supply. The only downside is some rarely used items may get totally ignored.

I would also add:

4) Allow for more complex sell orders so sellers can offer bulk discounts via the market. For instance I may sell Trit at 3.5/unit but if you buy 100 million units your price is 3.2/unit. It would make market competition far more interesting.

As an aside I think easier travel has damaged the market. Back in the old days when you had to drive to the gate making 10 jumps was painful. Now making 10 jumps is no big deal and people will drive further for a "good deal". This has helped diminish local markets. There was a time you could charge a premium so people could get something nearby. Volume may be lower but margin was higher.

I will not say I want a return to the old "drive to the gate" system as it came with its own problems and especially flying something like freighters which have no means of speeding their journey would just become hideously painful. I guess here I am just pointing something out without a ready solution in mind.

If you raise the barriers to entry then the small guy gets edged out. But if you could revitalize local markets the small guy, who gets no economy of scale, can sell at a profit locally while the big producers trying to unload massive quantities will be in Jita with smaller margins but making it up on volume.

cal nereus
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.05.14 04:53:00 - [56]
 

A lot of stuff is sold at certain prices because of the "I'm selling it used" mentality too. Y'know, like if I buy something, use it, and then get bored of it, and sell it again: I'm less inclined to sell for a profit and more inclined to just get rid of it so I can play with something else. Since a used piece of anything is just as effective as something newly built, there's less and less value to making more of something that is already abundant in the economy. Sad

Novemb3r
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.14 05:44:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: permith
Edited by: permith on 14/05/2008 00:07:28
so your solution to production being too easy* and there being a massive oversupply is to make an even larger over supply???

Just wait until after empayrain age. In theory we should be seeing more ships go boom, therefore more demand.

IE: easy enough that people don't even bother to run profitablity calcs, which is blatently silly.


You can't force people to pvp who don't want to pvp. The same amount of ships will explode. people afraid of losing ships to factional warfare will dock or stop playing.

Buyerr
Posted - 2008.05.14 06:06:00 - [58]
 

macros is the reason..

they are way to easy to make and there are way to many in the game, was mining around two whole playing days(while at work afk mining) in a covetor maxed skills, and there was for around 50mill in minerals, wtf? just shows how many macro miners are out there:S

KHEN
New Horizons
Posted - 2008.05.14 06:44:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: KHEN on 14/05/2008 06:49:30
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Originally by: Gamer4liff
Interjecting with an undercutting gripe:
If you sell for 100k+ less than the other orders in any given region on any given item, you should pretty much just drop dead. Especially when you justify it by saying that you are using the price in other regions. We manufacturers thrive on consumer ignorance, and it is foolish to not charge as much as possible.


i think its more of a

I can make a battleship and sell it for 95million isk, or i could sell the minerals and walk away with 100million isk, and people are doing the make a battleship and sell for 95mil isk. rather than say 104mil isk and making some sort of profit.



for people who mine, it takes time to sell the minerals and to fight against traders with 0.01 steps. Best in that case is to pack the minerals into something big and to sell it with a little discount. I'd say that it's better to do so on a price deflating mineral market.

Originally by: Gamer4liff
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton

it gets worse with t2 production and people not counting all the datacores/decryptors, components and t1 item. although they are also competing with t2 bpo holders.

Totally, I see this all the time in the T2 ship markets.


There are only a few ships that don't worth inventing : Lachesis, Rook, some transport ships, 50% of the command ships and the logistic ships. It's because the demand is small for these ships, they never sold well or at high prices, and the T2 bpo holders own the market

For all the other ships, you can invent and produce them at costs way below under market price even if you purchase all the datacores/decryptors from markets : around 55 Mil total build cost for the HAC in example.

That's why I disagree with you : where you see ships at prices below build cost, I see ships that don't deserve to be built because they sell bad, in all the other cases, I see oppurtunity to make a profit Smile

Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
Posted - 2008.05.14 06:59:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Le Skunk on 14/05/2008 07:01:32
Originally by: Akita T
Because I'm mildly drunk at the moment I'm going to let you flame me for a while before I answer (even more drunk and flaming), then come back and rectify this tomorrow when I'm sober.


The game is full of idiots that fail to go bankrupt !

People fail to go banckrupt because it's so easy to just fund a losing process via "more mining" or "reprocessed loot" or whatnot.
The "stuff I get myself is free" mentality is running rampant, and the worst part is, a lot of people fail to see anything bad in this.




Or sell some Game Time Cards which you wholheartedly defend

ROFL de deee

Eve is also full of CRUD PVPERS who fail to go bankrupt because they just hop out and use dollars to buy another ship.

SKUNK


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