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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.05.13 21:54:00 - [1]
 

Because I'm mildly drunk at the moment I'm going to let you flame me for a while before I answer (even more drunk and flaming), then come back and rectify this tomorrow when I'm sober.


The game is full of idiots that fail to go bankrupt !
This is hurting the economy side of the game, be it primary (items) or secondary (shares/IPO/banking) market.

We lack any semblance of an "economy of scale", barring the laughable need for some token items like, say, a BPO (the problem is people can just buy BPCs) or interfaces for invention (which are so common I find it hard to believe they're still selling at decent prices at all).
People fail to go banckrupt because it's so easy to just fund a losing process via "more mining" or "reprocessed loot" or whatnot.
The "stuff I get myself is free" mentality is running rampant, and the worst part is, a lot of people fail to see anything bad in this.


Actually, there is no economy of scale to speak of !
Do you manufacture one ship, or 100 ships ?
Well, from a purely "profit" point of view, it doesn't really matter anymore...the end product "costs" about the same in both cases. The price differences are minimal.
This makes almost no sense ! I mean, there SHOULD be some kind of bonuses out there for an economy of scale !
If nothing else, then at least get harsher penalties for those that only manufacture one item at a time (or a very small batch).



The whole industry side of the game is almost a joke nowadays.
Yes, there is some profit to be made if you're persistent... but that profit is minimal.
The entry barrier is set so low, and the skill prerequisites are so easily filled (even by self-training or purchase of an industry/science/invention alt) that it's downright laughable.


We've come to a point where the only decent "thought process" income source is trading !
Sure, it's easy to rely on the stupid manufacturer/inventor/scientist/reactant and buy the stuff that's severely (or even just mildly) underpriced and re-list it at what you think it's a "fair enough" price.
But that doesn't change the fact you are relying almost completely on either the inability of the "working man" to estimate his ACTUAL costs (and yes, opportunity cost IS a cost)... or on the urgency of some people to liquify their assets into ISK (in other words, people's impatience).


Rabble, rabble... rabble !
What can be done ?
Maybe, I should say... is it worth trying to do something ?
Or is everybody content with the current (pathetic, IMO) situation ?

Anubis Xian
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.05.13 22:00:00 - [2]
 

Let people actually make unique products.

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2008.05.13 22:04:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Taedrin on 13/05/2008 22:05:50
Originally by: Akita T

People fail to go banckrupt because it's so easy to just fund a losing process via "more mining" or "reprocessed loot" or whatnot.
The "stuff I get myself is free" mentality is running rampant, and the worst part is, a lot of people fail to see anything bad in this.



This means that the actual value of minerals is actually lower than market value. If people are willing to take an opportunity loss by using minerals to build an item and sell that item for less than the minerals are worth on the market, then that means that the value of minerals on the market is too high. Only way to stop this is to take advantage of these people's stupidity.

Or perhaps them selling items on the market for less than the minerals are actually worth is a sign that there is remarkably little demand for said item? Basic supply and demand says that prices will plummet if there us too much supply. And since you can't reprocess at 100% efficiency, people need to drop prices to rock bottom levels in order to get a return on their investment.

(EDIT: Or you could be right and people are just too stupid to realise that there is an opportunity cost when you build an item with "free" minerals instead of selling those minerals at market cost. However, I would *LIKE* to think that people who produce enough T1 components to actually effect the market on any scale what so ever would be smart enough to think through the most profitable action to take...)

Letouk Mernel
Caldari
Posted - 2008.05.13 22:04:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Letouk Mernel on 13/05/2008 22:08:45

Whenever you say "economy of scale", I always think about huge factories and mass production, something which is absent from EVE.

I do not know if this would solve the problems that you're talking about, but stations could have small factory slots, medium, large, and a few of these stations, the ones built specifically by the Empires for manufacturing only (and that reside on a trade-hub node, hint hint), could have massive factory slots.

Renting the larger slots would force you to build minimum quantities (you must build 100,000 units in this slot) or pay some sort of penalty, but the larger slots could come with better ME / time bonuses, thus enabling your "economies of scale". Especially time bonuses, being able to crank out 100,000 units of something in the same time that it takes the little guy to crank out 10, could be worth something.

They would have to rework the way blueprints behave, a little, so that the time it takes to manufacture stuff depends on the slot more than the blueprint, and also so that massive quantities can be made if the appropriate slot is used.

However, the thing is, a ship is a ship is a ship, so ultimately it is still impossible to differentiate your product from someone else's and compete on quality rather than just price.

Thorek Ironbrow
Caldari
CAPS Holding
Capital Storm
Posted - 2008.05.13 22:06:00 - [5]
 

So what you're saying is that we should actually make profit from making items. If so I agree. It's ******ed how little money I make from tech 1 items.

Dr Totenkopf
Caldari
Noob Mercs
Posted - 2008.05.13 22:06:00 - [6]
 

stop producing Exp Cargohold Rolling Eyes sell your stuff in other regions and so on...Laughing

Production is not broken.

Thorek Ironbrow
Caldari
CAPS Holding
Capital Storm
Posted - 2008.05.13 22:08:00 - [7]
 

I'm not content. It's annoying.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.05.13 22:11:00 - [8]
 

Actually, you can reprocess T1 stuff at (nearly) 100%... the only lost value is the ISK you paid for factory time, and that's quite a small percentage of the total value.
Not only that, but T1 goods (and minerals as a whole) have a rock-bottom they can't get below : the 70% "insurance fraud" cap.
The problem wasn't all that bad when only T1 gear was severely underpriced due to "minerals are free" people.

But now... with the boom in invention (and T2 manufacture), and with the lousy (negative) ME of invented BPCs, this means that a large portion of the value in T2 goods is simply lost in case somebody tries to do the same thing most "T1/named reprocessors" did so long.
Not only do you have a base 33% loss (compared to high-ME BPOs) of value in form of materials, you have the additional loss of value from the datacores used in invention, and the RAM consumables, on top of the (negligible) ISK factory slot cost.
All in all, nearly HALF of a T2 item's price could be lost by attempting to reprocess, which makes reprocessing T2 unfeasable, so there are no such checks and balances that keep the T1 goods (relatively) stable in price.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2008.05.13 22:14:00 - [9]
 

Aside from (sophisticated) scamming, which one could argue is just trading carried to extremes, and usury in general (which depends on other activities for profit), I'd say that there has never been any other truly thought-intensive occupation whose potential returns rival those of trading. Complex production lines may require a certain amount of management, but it's largely on an ever-decreasing slope of profitability as we approach equilibrium, and you don't need to think too hard about it (except when deciding whether or not to start in the first place).

I should probably point out that the current rounding procedure for build costs means that we have a reverse economy of scale - you actually get a larger waste factor with the same BPO for jobs with a greater number of runs. Evil or Very Mad

One other thought - when the price cap on trit is eventually lifted, I wouldn't be surprised if mining became more profitable (per hour) than most forms of production.


Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.05.13 22:15:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Thorek Ironbrow
So what you're saying is that we should actually make profit from making items. If so I agree. It's ******ed how little money I make from tech 1 items.

Originally by: Letouk Mernel
Whenever you say "economy of scale", I always think about huge factories and mass production, something which is absent from EVE.


That's precisely what I'm saying.
Somebody manufacturing one or two or ten items should find himself wasting a lot of materials and money on the "production line setup", a significant portion (anywhere from 5% to 50%) of a "single unit's" total value (depending on batch size and manufacture time or such).

Those manufacturing hundreds, THOUSANDS of units of "something" (again, depends on what), they should get some kind of tangible advantage in "end price".
But now, they don't. The difference is far below the NPC tax rates, actually, for most items.

Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
Posted - 2008.05.13 22:55:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Akita T


The game is full of idiots that fail to go bankrupt !
This is hurting the economy side of the game, be it primary (items) or secondary (shares/IPO/banking) market.

We lack any semblance of an "economy of scale", barring the laughable need for some token items like, say, a BPO (the problem is people can just buy BPCs) or interfaces for invention (which are so common I find it hard to believe they're still selling at decent prices at all).
People fail to go banckrupt because it's so easy to just fund a losing process via "more mining" or "reprocessed loot" or whatnot.
The "stuff I get myself is free" mentality is running rampant, and the worst part is, a lot of people fail to see anything bad in this.




May i recommend you this MMO, Akita T: Entropia Universe.
In this game over 95 % of players go constantly bankrupt.
And there is no easy way to fund a losing proces via more grinding.
(Those players then can buy ammo/weapons/armor with their credit cards from the company for US-$, but that's another issue ..).

Shadow Joy
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:04:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
...

May i recommend you this MMO, Akita T: Entropia Universe.
In this game over 95 % of players go constantly bankrupt.
And there is no easy way to fund a losing proces via more grinding.
(Those players then can buy ammo/weapons/armor with their credit cards from the company for US-$, but that's another issue ..).


GTCs can be used to prevent bankruptcy as well. I imagine they also have something to do with the low T1 prices, as they effectively remove the barrier to purchasing costly BPOs.

For the record, I agree with CCPs rationale for allowing GSC to ISK sales - but that doesn't mean I particularly like it.

Shakka Zulu
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:13:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Shadow Joy
Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
...

May i recommend you this MMO, Akita T: Entropia Universe.
In this game over 95 % of players go constantly bankrupt.
And there is no easy way to fund a losing proces via more grinding.
(Those players then can buy ammo/weapons/armor with their credit cards from the company for US-$, but that's another issue ..).


GTCs can be used to prevent bankruptcy as well. I imagine they also have something to do with the low T1 prices, as they effectively remove the barrier to purchasing costly BPOs.

For the record, I agree with CCPs rationale for allowing GSC to ISK sales - but that doesn't mean I particularly like it.


But at least buying a GTC and trading it for isk doesn't actually create more stuff; it just rearranges the stuff that is all ready out there.

KHEN
New Horizons
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:18:00 - [14]
 

I've been in industry since I started EVE 4 years ago and I've made profits constantly

Nowadays EVE's industry rocks more than ever.
I look at my business and at markets, I don't mind about other's business : that's certainly why I enjoy the industry part of EVE : I don't mine, I don't plex, I don't mission, I don't rat, I don't farm, I don't cosmos, I don't beg an agent for datacores, I don't do anything but buying tons of basic stuff and making tons of things from it, then selling final products, using invention a lot.

people whining in these forums always consider that EVE must be different to serve their interest better, that's wrong, it's up to you to adapt to EVE and you'll enjoy it

To paraphrase EVOL, I'd say : those who cannot adapt should switch to another MMO

ah and people aren't so stupid as you describe, not in EVE, they seem to be stupid, but in fact they are misunderstood, but don't worry, profits are real for them

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:19:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Yakia TovilToba
May i recommend you this MMO, Akita T: Entropia Universe.

That's just a shell of a MMO on top of a pyramid scheme... basically a "Second Life" wannabe (even if it would have been launched before).
The whole game is geared towards an infinitesimal chance of "earning" anything and constant consumption.


No, what I'm asking for is a way for the TRUE industrialist to emerge in EVE, with the current system in place modified as little as possible.
Not that "wannabe industrialists" should go bankrupt directly... but at least sharply feel their losses, not the pathetic minor percentage drain they now suffer, so minor most don't even notice.

Lord WarATron
Amarr
Shadow Warri0rs
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:19:00 - [16]
 

What I find most intresting is people who are willing to lose 5-6 mil by putting a ship on market underpriced.......

Yet refuse to enter pvp with a battlecruiser due to not wanting to lose isk.

Shadow Joy
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:23:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Shakka Zulu
...

But at least buying a GTC and trading it for isk doesn't actually create more stuff; it just rearranges the stuff that is all ready out there.


True, which is one reason why I grudgingly accept it.

But I imagine it does make life difficult for manufacturers.

What does a battleship BPO go for these days? I remember it as being kind of expensive. Regardless, instead of a corp working and saving to buy that asset it can be acquired these days by a brand new character who digs into their wallet.

Fewer barriers to competition means more competitors. More competitors means less profit.

I enjoy being able to replace the ships I lose cheaply, but I have to wonder why anyone manufacturers in an environment where their profit margins are almost non-existent.

Barbens
Uneducated Soldiers
Dragoons.
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:28:00 - [18]
 

You might want to check this game out instead of WoW:

www.eve-online.com


BaRbEnS

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:32:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Lord WarATron
What I find most intresting is people who are willing to lose 5-6 mil by putting a ship on market underpriced.......

Yet refuse to enter pvp with a battlecruiser due to not wanting to lose isk.


I like idiots who undercut you by 50% value of the item.
Was selling t2 SPRs at 2mil (cheapest in region). Here comes idiot and puts 500 of them at 1 mil/piece. No he didnt remove me from market. His goods sold and i waited it out - mine sold a while later. But i just cant understand that logic - born masochists?

Shakka Zulu
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:34:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Originally by: Lord WarATron
What I find most intresting is people who are willing to lose 5-6 mil by putting a ship on market underpriced.......

Yet refuse to enter pvp with a battlecruiser due to not wanting to lose isk.


I like idiots who undercut you by 50% value of the item.
Was selling t2 SPRs at 2mil (cheapest in region). Here comes idiot and puts 500 of them at 1 mil/piece. No he didnt remove me from market. His goods sold and i waited it out - mine sold a while later. But i just cant understand that logic - born masochists?


Why didn't you buy up his merchanise yourself? :(

Pang Grohl
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:40:00 - [21]
 

I think that the problem is bigger than unrealized costs, and that implementing true economy of scale in the manufacturing process would crush margins even tighter. Why? Economies of scale would inflate current supply even higher than it is. The "my time is free" guys only lower the floor on produced goods that aren't T1 ships. Over-supply is what's actually driving the prices down.

My best suggestions would be:
1) Re-introduce the scaling of factory install fees with demand, and increase minimum per job fees.
2) Remove player manufactured goods from loot tables. Possibly including player wrecks.
3) Make the most mineral efficient blue prints waste at least 1% round to the next integer for all consumable ingredients. This should make bulk jobs the only way to get the least wastage, with better skills allowing for smaller increments in job size.



Val Vympel
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:40:00 - [22]
 

IMO,the problems with the economy are a matter of a lack of complexity.

Veldspar is veldspar is veldspar.
There is no measure of quality or purity etc.etc.

BP's should be more complex. If you produce a Salvager 1 from sub-standard Tritanium derived from poor quality ore the modifiers of the finished product should in turn be sub-standard.

I also believe there are simply not enough ore types or mineral types derived from them.

Complexity would force manufacturers to specialize and compete to see who could produce superior quality mods,drones,ships..etc.

Anybody who was a manufacurer in SWG when it launched will know what I'm talking about.

I was a small time manufacturer in SWG...but I could compete because I had literally "millions of units " of the best quality minerals that the server ever produced.
My product line was small but "second to none" in quality.
And I could demand very healthy profits(gouge)Laughing from my finished products.

EvE's economy is large,but not complex.
Simply put...it is too vanilla.ugh

My 2 ISK.


KHEN
New Horizons
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:47:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: KHEN on 13/05/2008 23:48:22
Originally by: Akita T
Not that "wannabe industrialists" should go bankrupt directly...



Before invention the demand for T2 components was very thin, producing at the lowest cost was important to survive. I've produced T2 components for more than 2 years and during this time I've seen dozens of peeps selling their comps below build cost because they were resigning from that business. For 2 years the whole T2 comps business and by extension the POS business were completly ruined but these perma bankrupts (remember when Dysprosium and Promethium did not sell even at 5000 isks per unit). I've bought almost one hundred million of these cheap T2 comps from my ruined competitors for 2 years.

When invention has been implemented, the price for these comps skyrocketed. Then I sold my stock undercutting the mad prices on the markets by 10%. Then I received a great number of messages in the style "you are f****g stupid to sell at these moronic low prices, you kill your own market !!"

next time that you think that someone is stupid to sell at low-rates, remember the story above...

industry is meant to be runned on the long term, particularly in EVE, it's rarely immediate return on investment

Deva Blackfire
Viziam
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:48:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Shakka Zulu

Why didn't you buy up his merchanise yourself? :(


No cash on alt and was too lazy to drop from my main. Not like i cared tbh - i have around 10b now and i trade/manufacture only when im at 7b or sth ;p

Shin Wha
Gallente
University of Caille
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:49:00 - [25]
 

I am no econimic(sp?) guru here, and I haven't played long enough nor have I been into the whole market trading and industerialist area to really understand half the stuff you guys are saying. Just the gist of what you guys are talking about I some what understand.

Anyways, I don't understand, unless its for "game" reasons why a batch of lets say 10 shuttles would cost more materials to make then lets say 100,000 shuttles, if lets pretend that a bonus feature was implimented.

I could see a bonus to build times of the shuttles, but the materials themselves I can't, as a shuttle is to a shuttle is to a shuttle (using the same bpo).

If anything, a bonus to build times should be given to those who are making mass quantities of any particular item. 1 day to make 1 shuttle (example here) but if you want 100k shuttles, you get a 20% bonus to build times. Allowing you to build 1 shuttle in 48 minutes, thus allowing a faster flow of items. Also, when building a large amount of items, it should be allowed to allocate "portions" of those items as they are build. 200k paradice cruise missiles, lets say takes 3 days to complete. So you go 8 hours come back and you got at least 50k in your hanger that were complete. So at least you get part of the completed product so you can immediately sale/use these, rather then wait the whole 3 days for the manufacturing to complete itself. (Allow the user to set the allocation limit)

Like Akira, been drinking some myself. Sorry if this is a huge wall of text. There are a lot of things I would like to see to improve on the manufactoring area. (I think I have built a total of 2 things in the game)


Junbug
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:56:00 - [26]
 

personally i dont think its too bad what it comes down to is basically

1. people mining 23/7 so they can undercut each other and help me pay less for my lost ships...

2. people dumping in tens of millions/billions of isk into invention so i can get cheap T2 stuff, without having to go through the tedious process of gathering BPO, research them, make tools etc for cheap T2 stuff

3. people macroing ice 23/7 so i can have cheap fuel for pos

4. people buying isk to pay for their dream of becoming a super industrialist and in so doing making GTC cheap for me...

as a consumer, i love it...




Lurana Lay
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:58:00 - [27]
 

Take this crap down to the market forums where all the other jack-asses are.

Quote:
The game is full of idiots that fail to go bankrupt !

"I constantly get undercut, for whatever reason, and it ****es me off! In other words, they are stupid people who should have their b-all-s stapled to their chins and get run out of the game!"

Quote:
Actually, there is no economy of scale to speak of !

"I only make eleventy billion ISK a minute. Everyone else not hardcore like me should have draconian fines, huge time sinks, and numerous painfull hurdles to navigate especially n00bs!"

Quote:
The whole industry side of the game is almost a joke nowadays.

"I only make eleventy billion ISK a minute. Everyone else not hardcore like me should have draconian fines, huge time sinks, and numerous painfull hurdles to navigate especially n00bs!"

Quote:
We've come to a point where the only decent "thought process" income source is trading !

"Everyone who doesnt use spreadsheets and advanced economics knowledge to play EVE is a poppy-head and I don't understand them, so they have to be stupid!"

Summation: I'm unhappy and everyone else needs a huge nerf!Onerous fines, much higher entry level, and giant time sinks for everyone except numerically anal retentive people like me!

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.05.14 00:02:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Lurana Lay
[rant]stuff[/rant]
Summation: I'm unhappy and everyone else needs a huge nerf!Onerous fines, much higher entry level, and giant time sinks for everyone except numerically anal retentive people like me!

Schwing... and miss !


Actually, it's "I make shedloads trading, and I see ZERO reason to even TRY to invent/manufacture/whatever because there is not even a glimmer of hope of doing anything ELSE so profitable as ripping off idiots... but I feel almost sorry for them".


permith
Posted - 2008.05.14 00:06:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: permith on 14/05/2008 00:07:28
so your solution to production being too easy* and there being a massive oversupply is to make an even larger over supply???

Just wait until after empayrain age. In theory we should be seeing more ships go boom, therefore more demand.

IE: easy enough that people don't even bother to run profitablity calcs, which is blatently silly.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.05.14 00:11:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: permith
so your solution to production being too easy* and there being a massive oversupply is to make an even larger over supply???

Heh, it does look like that at first sight, doesn't it ? Twisted Evil

No... it's "a flood of cheap goods from a small number of people, with a nearly limitless extra supply of EXPENSIVE stuff from every wannabe".
A price differential so great from those into serious manufacture that the "small fish" have to admit defeat to themselves (while now they claim "profit" on the basis of "free minerals" and similar) and either get out or become retailers.


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