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blankseplocked Wardecs that can't be defended against. *Now with CCP quote!*
 
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Kami Nodachi
Gallente
Lobstosity
Posted - 2008.05.12 12:34:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Kami Nodachi on 17/05/2008 13:36:04
Edited by: Kami Nodachi on 12/05/2008 12:52:55
In the current mechanics, there is no way to defend yourself against a corp that is funding and supplying a wardec through a seperate account. The only option in these circumstances is to live with it until the wardeccing party gets bored.

Example: 'Butcher the weak' [BTCH], a corp based in Tash Murkon Prime.

Modus operandi: Declare war on younger corps, demanding ransom (50 mill isk). [BTCH] members are all obviously alt characters. They don't mission. They don't haul supplies. The only times they are online they are either docked, or preying on the weakest targets they can find. Any show of force, and they dock and wait it out. They are effectively unassailable.

The only way to deal with them is:
A. pay the ransom (dubious result at best)
B. wait it out (they have kept up a dec on at least one corp who refuse to deal with them for 2 months [thats almost 2/5ths the ransom demand in wardec costs!])
C. join an alliance (if you can find one that is suitable)
D. make your own alliance (expensive, time skill and isk wise, no guarantee that they don't have enough ready cash not to keep the wardec up)

Whats missing? Being able to fight your way out. Whats the point of a war you can't fight? Declaring war on someone involves a certain amount of risk, but the way [BTCH] operate, there is virtually NO risk involved. They sit in dock claiming to be big bad pirates, but are anything but. So far the ramifications of the wardec [BTCH] declared on ONE corp have cost it many times its demanded ransom, and yet they WILL NOT let the dec drop. They are completely unaccountable.

My proposals: Accountability. I believe wardecs should be automatically cancelled if there are no hostilites within a certain amount of time, and after a wardec lapses, an amount of time should have to pass before you can re-apply. Game mechanics for war should be like war. It should not be possible to declare war on someone else and spend the whole time hiding. It is just wasting everyones time.

*Addendum:

We’ve always believed that the best way to experience EVE is in player corporations. It’s the best introduction and “crash course” you can get for EVE and any tutorial we create will never be able to fully deliver the same experience and give the accelerated advancement a player corporation gives. EVE is about the people and if you aren’t playing with the other people, we believe you’re missing out on some essential aspects of the game. (Nathan Richardsson talking to mmorpg.com)

*

Dianeces
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.12 12:50:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Kami Nodachi
I believe wardecs should be automatically cancelled if there are no hostilites within a certain amount of time


And what's to stop a wardecced corp from docking up for said amount of time so the declaring corp can't initiate hostilities?

Zirconium Blade
Ass Pounding Space Monkeys
Posted - 2008.05.12 12:53:00 - [3]
 

I'm, sorry that you suck. Don't suppose you're around the Derlik region?

Kami Nodachi
Gallente
Lobstosity
Posted - 2008.05.12 12:55:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Kami Nodachi on 12/05/2008 12:57:12
Originally by: Dianeces
Originally by: Kami Nodachi
I believe wardecs should be automatically cancelled if there are no hostilites within a certain amount of time


And what's to stop a wardecced corp from docking up for said amount of time so the declaring corp can't initiate hostilities?


That would be an effective form of defense. Paying 2 mill isk seems fair enough to shut a corp down for a week. Why should those that DECLARE the war have hiding as a viable option? It makes more sense to have that be an out for the victims.

Kami Nodachi
Gallente
Lobstosity
Posted - 2008.05.12 12:57:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Zirconium Blade
I'm, sorry that you suck. Don't suppose you're around the Derlik region?


I guess you didn't read the part about the wardec costing THEM many times their ransom demand. We aren't incapable. We just can't kill people who are docked in stations.

Erotic Irony
0bsession
Posted - 2008.05.12 13:03:00 - [6]
 

wrong

what you're describing is a symptom of the incomplete war mechanics; war needs more functionality, more gameplay options to make it interesting and provide alternatives to station camping

Kami Nodachi
Gallente
Lobstosity
Posted - 2008.05.12 13:08:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Erotic Irony
wrong

what you're describing is a symptom of the incomplete war mechanics; war needs more functionality, more gameplay options to make it interesting and provide alternatives to station camping


What I am saying isn't wrong. As you yourself said, I am describing the symptom of a problem. Your post is meaningless unless you provide the options that will fix this problem.

Buriko Kamakura
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
Vanguard Imperium
Posted - 2008.05.14 04:04:00 - [8]
 

It seems to me that 10% of the eve community knows that wardecs are broken and need to be fixed. Another 20% have an IQ of about 50 and actually -like- the current system. The other 70% don't give a crap, because they're all in lowsec by now, where wardec doesn't matter.

And I think that's the core of the problem. Wardec issues only affect a small portion of eve, and they're new players who tend to just quit after a month or so anyway. So, CCP probably doesn't care about wardecs in the first place.

The solution, I find, is just to not be in a corp if you're in highsec. What can a highsec corp do for you, anyway? Tax you? Mine with you? You can have the mining experience with friends. You can split your profits fairly with friends; you don't need a corp wallet to do that.

So, I hate to say it, but if your corp only has activity in highsec, just dissolve your (useless) highsec corp and make a chatroom with all your former members to chat and hang out with. It's what our corp did after we had an abusive wardec from a 2 person corp like your example, and I've never been happier. I can undock when I want, my old corpmates still mine together with zero harassment, and we can all do missions whenever we like. It's really quite an awesome way to play the game until we have 10 million SP and will be useful to a lowsec corp.

deepb
Posted - 2008.05.14 06:56:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Buriko Kamakura
The solution, I find, is just to not be in a corp if you're in highsec. What can a highsec corp do for you, anyway? Tax you? Mine with you? You can have the mining experience with friends. You can split your profits fairly with friends; you don't need a corp wallet to do that.
Have you considered simply not p*ssing people off to the point that they want to declare war against you? Seems to me like a pretty effective approach.

..and before you tell me that they just "choose corps randomly", I'd really need to hear that from the corp that created the wardec. What you perceive as random might actually be anything but.


Washell Olivaw
Posted - 2008.05.14 07:59:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Buriko Kamakura
The other 70% don't give a crap, because they're all in lowsec by now, where wardec doesn't matter.


The next fanfest would be a month long party if the population in low-sec had climbed to 70% of the total population.

Actual figures: 69.5% hi-sec, 10.8% low and 19.6% 0.0.

Kami Nodachi
Gallente
Lobstosity
Posted - 2008.05.14 08:29:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: deepb
Originally by: Buriko Kamakura
The solution, I find, is just to not be in a corp if you're in highsec. What can a highsec corp do for you, anyway? Tax you? Mine with you? You can have the mining experience with friends. You can split your profits fairly with friends; you don't need a corp wallet to do that.
Have you considered simply not p*ssing people off to the point that they want to declare war against you? Seems to me like a pretty effective approach.

..and before you tell me that they just "choose corps randomly", I'd really need to hear that from the corp that created the wardec. What you perceive as random might actually be anything but.




OK. Pretty easy to see from the name 'Butcher the weak' who they go after and why. Young and industrial corps. Anyone with little perceived threat. We ****ed them off because we are an admittedly easy going corp with a mining industrial focus.

What is the point of corps at all? If corps are only useful in 0.0 then maybe wardecs in high sec should be banned altogether since it is much easier to just make a channel and stay in NPC corp.

Corps are supposed to be a vehicle to help players work together, but are being used to punish new and non-PvP aligned players FOR working together.

You know what? If a wardec costs money, why can't you pay money to be IMMUNE to wardecs?

deepb
Posted - 2008.05.14 10:08:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Kami Nodachi
OK. Pretty easy to see from the name 'Butcher the weak' who they go after and why. Young and industrial corps. Anyone with little perceived threat. We ****ed them off because we are an admittedly easy going corp with a mining industrial focus.

What is the point of corps at all? If corps are only useful in 0.0 then maybe wardecs in high sec should be banned altogether since it is much easier to just make a channel and stay in NPC corp.

Corps are supposed to be a vehicle to help players work together, but are being used to punish new and non-PvP aligned players FOR working together.

You know what? If a wardec costs money, why can't you pay money to be IMMUNE to wardecs?
Because that would be unrealistic, and completely goes against everything EVE was created to be.

Bottom line: if they can gain an advantage on you, you can gain an advantage on them. You just have to be smart about it.

- add all of their known members to all of your address books so you know when they login/logout.
- use L4 locater agents to keep tabs on where they are at all times.
- limit your vulnerability by keeping your corp members informed about where they are, if/when they are mobilizing, etc.
- setup "traps" for them - if they are predictably attacking you in certain scenarios, throw them a curveball in any way you possibly can (cloaked escorts that are armed to the teeth, numerous ships waiting at a safespot, hire a merc corp to surprise them, etc).

Once you become more of a hassle than you're worth, they will move on. You cannot simply stay docked all the time - you're giving them exactly what they want. Fight back, be smart about it, and show them that you're not the pushovers they're looking for.

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2008.05.14 12:10:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Buriko Kamakura
It seems to me that 10% of the eve community knows that wardecs are broken and need to be fixed. Another 20% have an IQ of about 50 and actually -like- the current system. The other 70% don't give a crap, because they're all in lowsec by now, where wardec doesn't matter.

Wrong stats.

Originally by: Buriko Kamakura
And I think that's the core of the problem. Wardec issues only affect a small portion of eve, and they're new players who tend to just quit after a month or so anyway. So, CCP probably doesn't care about wardecs in the first place.

It affects 70% that are in hisec. The real question is about finding a good alternative.

Originally by: Buriko Kamakura
The solution, I find, is just to not be in a corp if you're in highsec. What can a highsec corp do for you, anyway? Tax you? Mine with you? You can have the mining experience with friends. You can split your profits fairly with friends; you don't need a corp wallet to do that.

So, I hate to say it, but if your corp only has activity in highsec, just dissolve your (useless) highsec corp and make a chatroom with all your former members to chat and hang out with. It's what our corp did after we had an abusive wardec from a 2 person corp like your example, and I've never been happier. I can undock when I want, my old corpmates still mine together with zero harassment, and we can all do missions whenever we like. It's really quite an awesome way to play the game until we have 10 million SP and will be useful to a lowsec corp.


Do you know something about hisec corps?
-Mining : thieves flagging to corp gives the opportunity to retaliate in a proper way.
-Missions : Mistakes happen, corp avoids any concord coming to blow you when you shot a wreck or anything that happened to be just near a rat and you locked.
-Having things in common : Corporate hangars, POS... Those are things needed to organize large scale industry with ease. And distribute free stuff to members too. Sharing ships for mining, there's always an industrial or a mining ship ready for use in the hangar near the mining spot. Also, free ammo, free modules, dropping things you don't use that will serve newbies.
-War : well, that's a reason to make a corp... Wars against ore thieves, annoying people salvaging your missions... Wars for fun...


Well, I find it hard to organize industry between many people without a corp...

Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.14 14:45:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Kami Nodachi
They sit in dock claiming to be big bad pirates, but are anything but. So far the ramifications of the wardec [BTCH] declared on ONE corp have cost it many times its demanded ransom, and yet they WILL NOT let the dec drop. They are completely unaccountable.



You are simply doing it wrong. Dont camp their station, learn how to set traps, learn how to use local, learn how to use scouts etc. Then you will stop beeing a easy target.

Zirconium Blade
Ass Pounding Space Monkeys
Posted - 2008.05.14 15:07:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Kami Nodachi
Originally by: Zirconium Blade
I'm, sorry that you suck. Don't suppose you're around the Derlik region?


I guess you didn't read the part about the wardec costing THEM many times their ransom demand. We aren't incapable. We just can't kill people who are docked in stations.

So.. they're paying the war, but they're docked up because you uber pwn them when they undock.

Where is the problem?

Nekopyat
Posted - 2008.05.14 15:08:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Eleana Tomelac

Do you know something about hisec corps?



Lets also not forget hi-sec POSes. Not as profitable as a low sec moon mining operation but it does allow industrialists to access research labs that don't have a 3 week wait time on them.

Kami Nodachi
Gallente
Lobstosity
Posted - 2008.05.15 10:07:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Zirconium Blade
Originally by: Kami Nodachi
Originally by: Zirconium Blade
I'm, sorry that you suck. Don't suppose you're around the Derlik region?


I guess you didn't read the part about the wardec costing THEM many times their ransom demand. We aren't incapable. We just can't kill people who are docked in stations.

So.. they're paying the war, but they're docked up because you uber pwn them when they undock.

Where is the problem?


We don't uber pwn them. We could if our whole corp was online. But what actually happens is they go after weaker or lone targets, and dock when more than one player that they know has cajones is online.

We don't have the experience or numbers to set a proper trap.

Kami Nodachi
Gallente
Lobstosity
Posted - 2008.05.15 10:10:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Kami Nodachi
They sit in dock claiming to be big bad pirates, but are anything but. So far the ramifications of the wardec [BTCH] declared on ONE corp have cost it many times its demanded ransom, and yet they WILL NOT let the dec drop. They are completely unaccountable.



You are simply doing it wrong. Dont camp their station, learn how to set traps, learn how to use local, learn how to use scouts etc. Then you will stop beeing a easy target.


We aren't easy targets.

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2008.05.15 11:22:00 - [19]
 

war decs are basically bribing the cops to look the other way. It makes no sense to not calculate concord standings into it, sec status of system, and frankly the ability to bribe the cops TOO look the right way and end the war.

Quote:
My proposals: Accountability. I believe wardecs should be automatically cancelled if there are no hostilites within a certain amount of time, and after a wardec lapses, an amount of time should have to pass before you can re-apply. Game mechanics for war should be like war. It should not be possible to declare war on someone else and spend the whole time hiding. It is just wasting everyones time.

That doesn't really fit into the idea of wardecs being bribes idea.

Lets say you live in the 1950s or something and you bribe the cops to look the other way... if you dont actually commit any crimes for awhile... no harm done really. No change would occur. Cops would still be bribed off.

Though that cant be the end of it... it ultimately should be up to whoever will pay the most to the crooked cops to get their way. That I think is the best way to bring proper balance. That way carebears who cant pvp can pay lots to keep protection while pirates may be paying just to damage carebears.

Even then that wont be griefing because nobody is saying they need to pay. They can just accept the wardec just like the system now forces you to do.

Kami Nodachi
Gallente
Lobstosity
Posted - 2008.05.15 11:33:00 - [20]
 

Standings are an interesting point. You would think that it would cost more for a low standing corp to declare war on a corp in high standing. One would think the authorities wouldn't look kindly on wars against those they hold in high esteem.

Mavolio
Viziam
Posted - 2008.05.15 15:33:00 - [21]
 

This happened to me ages ago. If some corp goes to war against you just to get isk then move to the other side of empire. It will take them time/effort to find you then come over there to annoy you. Once they have found you then you log off wait till they aren't online then move to the other side of EvE again. Eventualy they will get tired of chasing you only to see you dock then appear far away next time they find you.

Kami Nodachi
Gallente
Lobstosity
Posted - 2008.05.16 06:28:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Mavolio
This happened to me ages ago. If some corp goes to war against you just to get isk then move to the other side of empire. It will take them time/effort to find you then come over there to annoy you. Once they have found you then you log off wait till they aren't online then move to the other side of EvE again. Eventualy they will get tired of chasing you only to see you dock then appear far away next time they find you.


They aren't doing it for ISK. Thats the problem. So far their decs have cost them hundreds of millions of ISK in ships and mods. They have recovered no-where near enough to recoop their losses, but they don't seem to care. They are in it purely to annoy, and cause grief.

They only manage to annoy however.


 

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