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The Dr4gon
Posted - 2008.05.11 23:11:00 - [1]
 

Something seriously needs to be done about this. Get platnium insurance on a ship that only pay out 1/4 what it cost to buy the ship isn;t insurance. It's garbage. Either the insurance payout for these ships need to be increased, or the production cost of making these ships needs to be reduced. Getting only 15mil back for a ship that costs 60mil to buy (not counting the the ISK cost to fit it), is just plain ******ed. Now I know people are going to say 'then fly somthing cheaper' or 'then don't get blown up', but when you are doing PvP it's almost impossible not to lose a ship every once in a while. And seeing that you need some sort of high cost ship just to compete in PvP when the insurance payout doesn't even cover the ship's cost it's really not worth it to even buy and fly these ships. For example, the Pilgrim (Amarr Force Recon) cost aprox. 60mil to buy, and about 20mil to outfit properly, yet platinum insurance only pays out 15mil. So, please, for the love of god, increase the insurance payout on it so it's somewhere close to the cost of the ship.

Junkie Beverage
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.11 23:16:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Junkie Beverage on 11/05/2008 23:17:09
it is an isk sink purposefully put in by ccp and pre-invention it used to be much worse - if you want a insurable hull to pvp in fly a battleship

Kitoba
Minmatar
Legion of Dynamic Discord
Posted - 2008.05.11 23:19:00 - [3]
 

Then don't insure it.

Stefan F
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.05.12 00:32:00 - [4]
 

I've got another idea, lets remove insurance alltoghether so you'll actually feel it in you wallet if you lose a ship. As it stands now all t1 ships exept capitals are nearly free to loose thanks to the insureance payouts.

Dianeces
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.12 01:14:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Stefan F
I've got another idea, lets remove insurance alltoghether so you'll actually feel it in you wallet if you lose a ship. As it stands now all t1 ships exept capitals are nearly free to loose thanks to the insureance payouts.


Do you use rigs at all?

Reggie Stoneloader
Poofdinkles
Posted - 2008.05.12 03:50:00 - [6]
 

Three quick points:

1: Just fly T1. The insurance is there, and in most cases, so is the performance. A Brutix is a match for a Deimos, for a fraction of the cost and with the benefit of insurance. Cerberus versus Drake? Muninn versus Hurricane? Sure, some T2 ships have serious advantages, like the Vagabond, Ishtar or Crow, but that sort of ball-busting solo capability should come at a cost.

2: It's still insurance. If you could buy insurance for 5 isk and get 6 back when your ship pops, then it would still be worth it, kinda. The payout is always well above teh premium, so even if you can't cash the settlement check, replace the ship and buy a Quafe with the leftover change, you're better off with it than without it.

3: If you can't afford to lose it, don't fly it, especially not into lowsec/PvP situations. That's solid advice, and always has been.

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2008.05.12 04:17:00 - [7]
 

T2 insurance is very low compared to T2 market prices. I should also point out however that the base price of T2 ships is far, FAR lower than the going market prices. I remember right an Eagle's base price is only 18 mil, for example. Going off of base prices, T2 insurance isn't that bad, but CCP intentionally does not take market rates into account with insurance, since the market fluctuates so hard.

Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
House of El
Posted - 2008.05.12 06:45:00 - [8]
 

Insurance is calculated based on mineral costs (base mineral costs, no market prices). Since T2 components are not in those calculations, they are not insured. That is why you get such a crappy payout for your T2 ship.

Is there something wrong about that? No. By making T2 expensive it helps keep T1 usefull.

Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr
House of El
Posted - 2008.05.12 06:46:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes
Insurance is calculated based on mineral costs (base mineral costs, no market prices). Since T2 components are not in those calculations, they are not insured. That is why you get such a crappy payout for your T2 ship.

Is there something wrong about that? No. By making T2 expensive it helps keep T1 usefull.


EDIT: You don't need a high cost ship to be competitive, you need good gang coordiantion. If you go on 1v1, then the high cost ships is most usefull, but not mandatory.

Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2008.05.12 06:47:00 - [10]
 

T2 components are calculated and they have their base prices, but POS owners are more greedy ;)

sg3s
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.05.12 11:06:00 - [11]
 

hmmm
- crow, 20m
- rigs, 105m (!)
- rest fitting, 45m
- total 170m

Losing it to a computer failure, priceless.

I'm not complaining though, t2 ships and expensive fittings is what seperates the lazy people from people that work for their fittings, know what will survive, and can deal with the loss.

Get over it.

Koyama Ise
Caldari
Posted - 2008.05.12 11:33:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: sg3s

- rigs, 105m (!)


You're using polycarbons, hi-five.

Now about T2 insurance it works by saying 64 moons produce stuff I think 64 isk a unit, but due to the difficulty to obtain certain moon minerals the price goes way above the 64 isk a unit or whatever. With this system T2 becomes an "isk-sink" as someone said before (Though it's not an isk sink as more you're not generating as much money) and in 0.0 PvP being able to "hurt" your enemy as much as possible is a good thing and if that means they lose 40mil from an insured Pilgrim alone, so be it.
Rule no. 1 of EVE: Never fly what you can't afford to lose.
Rule no. 2 of EVE: As soon as you hit undock assume the ship is already dead.

Kalica Kahn
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.12 11:37:00 - [13]
 

Yay for losing a ship costing/meaning something

Nemtar Nataal
Demonic Retribution
Posted - 2008.05.12 11:46:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Kalica Kahn
Yay for losing a ship costing/meaning something


If you could fully ensure a T2 ship there would never be any reason for flying T1 ships. Ensuring T2 ships is over a short time going to create a huege rift between people who can fly and fit T2 ships and those who cant.

This will make it a requirement to fly a T2 ship and slowly the rift will be closed. However its going to make it even harder of new players to get into the game in the first place cause they will be even further away.

Its going to be like WoW where the game only really starts when you hit lvl60. EVE is just going to start when you buy and ensure your first T2 ship.

Its a bad idear


If you want the extra benefits of flying the T2 ships you should be willing to suffer the consequences!

Andreya
Red Federation
Posted - 2008.05.12 14:09:00 - [15]
 

OMG, worst idea ever! holy crap, the whole reason Eve has ahhardcore following is because actions and reactions have actual consequences!
i for one have been voting to REMOVE insurance (or basically cut the payouts by half on battleships, and a third on BCs)

inflation in eve is way too high, and poeple dont care about running into pvp with a t1 cheapo suicide BS... when i kill them i want it to hurt, if it doesnt hurt there wallet, i get no thrill in pvp... yes i am a evil ****er... but thats the whole thing about eve, if you want something more friendly or easy, go play 'WoW'

second of all. if you dont like it, fdont fly tech 2!... or .. dont fail and die as much... or, dont fly what you cant afford!

also.. ccp didnt make crows 20 mil, and vagabonds 100 . its the players! so BLAME YOURSELVES for expensive ships... if your some carebear pos huggin yuppy who whines and complains about moon minerals prices and shyte, YOU are one of the poeple who are contributing to ******edly high prices.

stop being a baby, and dont loose ships

CCP Atropos

Posted - 2008.05.12 14:20:00 - [16]
 

The reason insurance is the way it is, is due to the 'base cost' of the components used to build a ship. For Tech I ships, it's reasonably in line, but for Tech II ships, there are ancilliary costs that aren't reflected in the component list.

So what would you have us do? We've discussed internally, the concept of having the base prices for all components (such as minerals and whatever) follow a mean value as determined by the player market, and this would still provide decent insurance for Tech I ships, but theres still that difference for Tech II.

We aren't going to artificially multiply the insurance payout for Tech II ships, because the insurance payout is one of the downsides you have to accept when you fly a ship that is inherently better than it's predecesor. But if you have any ideas for ways that we could improve it, we're all willing to listen.

Malachon Draco
eXceeded
Posted - 2008.05.12 14:30:00 - [17]
 

Nonono, don't increase insurance on T2 ships. It will drive the price up further. (More people can afford T2 ships, demand goes up, supply is less flexible, so price goes up).

T2 ships are fine insurance wise. If you want to change anything, you could consider doing the following:
- Make invention better. Make it possible to research T2 BPCs from invention to get from ME -4 to ME 0. That would help a lot.

- Make highend moon materials more available. I would personally suggest some kind of T2 refining array on POS that could refine Dysprosium and such from Atmospheric gasses at a low rate, say 1/10th of the rate of a proper R32/R64 moonharvester. That would put a reasonable cap on T2 component prices, while providing an additional isk sink (more towers running to farm lowend moonmats and refine them means more fuel expenditure).

Not saying you have to do it, but if you want to do anything, those are the best options in my opinion.

Siigari Kitawa
Gallente
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2008.05.12 14:31:00 - [18]
 

Atropos leave it be.

Tech 2 is not insurable for a reason. Actually, if you took away insurance completely it would make them a slight bit more prestigious in my opinion.

That way when you make a tech 2 ship and fit it out, you're gonna go all out, because you have EVERYTHING TO LOSE. Makes it all or nothing, you know?

Thebro Nobrunder
Schrodinger's Renegades
Posted - 2008.05.12 17:28:00 - [19]
 

Personally I'd love to see insurance run more like a real insurance business...

The player when asking for insurance decides how much they want to insure their ship for. The insurer then applies a risk management model to the application. This sort of thing is very mundane in the real world.

The risk model would probably include the following things.
Character's
* security status
* history
Ship's
* market value
* value of rigs (since they cannot be removed)
* type

A miner with a 2.0 security status insuring a hulk would be very low risk.
A PVPer with a -8 security status insuring an ishtar and with 6 recorded ishtar losses and associated payouts is a huge risk.

As it is now insurance is very artificial... and mostly a freebie.
You shouldn't complain about insurance payouts because they are essentially free money for you.




Alski
Ministers Of Destruction.
Posted - 2008.05.12 17:33:00 - [20]
 

I’m gonna be honest here, and that means what I’m gonna say will probably get me flamed…

I’m on two minds about this, on one side I think its true that if you lose the non-insurable nature of T2 ships then you also lose some portion of the kind of rush and excitement from going into battle with them.

On the other side, I sometimes wish I’d never trained for HACs and recons, the problem is simply that I’ve been playing so long that grinding rats or missions or exploration (would say mining but I suck at mining) just isn’t enough fun anymore, 80% of the ingame activities I play Eve for is PvP, and suffering hours of ratting often doesn’t feel worth the penalty for flying the larger T2 ships… and yet because of the fact I’ve been playing as long as I have makes me feel that not flying HACs or recons would be a waste of both SP and experience.

Sure some of that is either my own fault for not being better at making isk, or just the fact that I get bored of repetitive tasks very easily, or poor decision making when I trained for ships I knew require more grinding to replace, but regardless of all that Eve is still a game and we play games to have fun, to many people making isk in all the standard easy to access ways stop being fun once you’ve been playing for a few years, which does have a kind of advantage in that it makes loss of a nice HAC or whatever all the more real, which is a very Eve-ish thing…Though it also adds to the burnout factor that almost any longtime Eve player has experienced.

I quite often approach discussions of game balance / features and ideas and such from radically different angles than what the OP and other posters do, and this post will be no exception in my ideas for a solution or compromise, but before I go in that direction I’ll also throw my support behind the simple of ideas of just *slightly* (at absolute most; doubling) the insurance payout of T2 ships, to make their loss slightly less painful without losing the rush factor of “AGHHH I’m about to lose 200m”.
Also allowing lower tier moon minerals to be slowly and inefficiently converted into higher end minerals is probably a change that needs to happen anyway, regardless of T2 ship/module costs and balance, I think many people who are taking note of the current moon mineral market trends would agree, though that’s an entirely different topic, so…..

Problem:

I know quite a few players in Eve, some of whom I know in RL who are all in more or less the same boat as me, that being “I don’t do any of the ‘advanced’ or difficult to access methods of isk making, and replacing T2 PvP ships is becoming a chore”
I think a large part of this is down to RL constraints, most people have jobs, family’s, a social life, and as such don’t have enough time to play to make the amount of ISK required to make losing a nicely pimped HAC or whatever palatable.

The alternative ideas to messing with insurance:

CCP, like most MMO companies wants us to play, the more we play the more interested we are, the more addicted we get, the more likely we are to keep renewing our subs… so in that sense having to grind for ISK is good, esp. since ISK is the only real grind Eve has, but for those of us who find ourselves with either not enough playtime for serious ISK making, or just apathy for all the same methods of ISK making that we’ve been rinsing and repeating for the last 2 or 3 or more years it would be nice to have methods of making our currency in easily accessible ways that are:
-More risky (to keep us interested)
-Make us a large amount of ISK
-In a short amount of time, and…
-Are restricted in such a way that regardless of how much time you have to play, you can’t just repeat the method over and over and make ridiculous sums of money. (basically, be non-farmable)

cont...

Alski
Ministers Of Destruction.
Posted - 2008.05.12 17:33:00 - [21]
 

I don’t want to go into detail about how to accomplish the above idea (I do have a few ideas) because this post is wayyyy off topic already, I’m merely suggesting that there should be alternatives available for people like myself who just want to PvP and don’t like sinking most of our playtime into making ISK.

note I am NOT suggesting that people should just be entitled to easy ISK or riskless losses, merely I’m saying that Risk and Loss and Cost are all relative depending on how you play, how much play time you have, and what ways you enjoy making your iskies, and rather than remove or change insurance, other game mechanics can be introduced to even up the “haves” and “have nots” a little.

Ok this post is now well past wall-of-text length (my CEO would be proud Razz ) so I’ll just throw out these very simplified ideas and let them get flamed to hell since I won’t be adding any cravats or explations:
- Make T2 cheaper and make it a new baseline, offset this with more goodies for rich players.
- Time for T3?!
- Make Faction mods more common, and so more likely be used in PvP to offset a higher T2 insurance payout and allow those players with lots of ISK to remain superior.
- Custom designed ships / modifiable attributes with modifiable construction requirements (this one I know is EXTEAMLEY technically difficult to code and balance but its just an idea) ie: can’t afford a “real” vagabond? Buy a custom design vaga that is cheaper, slower, not as tough… its not as good, but you can afford it and your using all those nice lvl 5’s you worked so long on
- Ingame tools to support NPC subsidized but player sold insurance as a new business model.
- More ways to enhance the ability of T1 ships that penalise them in other ways, making T2 still superior, but T1 more versatile for those with lots of SP (rigs and heat are good examples of what we have already)

<walloftextoff>

Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2008.05.12 17:51:00 - [22]
 

Cant CCP basically figure out the absolute factual minimum cost it would take to make a t2 ship assuming 0% loss and everything?

Then set the base cost to that?

Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2008.05.12 17:56:00 - [23]
 

This cost is something about 1000 isk (for some mechanical parts).

Dr Aryandi
Posted - 2008.05.13 11:19:00 - [24]
 

The comment above about fixing invention got it in one.

It's simply not economical for us to make T2 cruisers at less than around 80 to 90 mill a pop if we want to get any sort of profit at all out of the deal. That cost is actually rising at the moment due to the increase in moon mineral and decryptor costs.

The rising cost of decryptors is really hammering things, 14 mill for what cost 2 mill 3 months ago adds a lot to the cost on each ship and because of the way the system works there is no flexibility. The maths are pretty simple and we know what the cut off price on each decryptor is that makes it worth using or not. It is actually getting to the point on some ships where it is just not worth using any decryptor!

Fundamentally we need SOMETHING to allow the hardcore inventors to pull away from the pack. Whether that means making the ME and PE of the T1 BPC matter (for example divide by 10, hell divide by 50 for all I care just have it do something, and add it to the T2 BPC).

How about expensive implants that give a boost to ME, PR or runs - could even be sneaky and have 3 different implants that go in the same slot and boost different things to make people choose.

Skills to improve ME, PE and Runs with high pre-reqs, rank and cost.

We just need something, anything.

Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.05.13 13:00:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder
Personally I'd love to see insurance run more like a real insurance business...

The player when asking for insurance decides how much they want to insure their ship for. The insurer then applies a risk management model to the application. This sort of thing is very mundane in the real world.

The risk model would probably include the following things.
Character's
* security status
* history
Ship's
* market value
* value of rigs (since they cannot be removed)
* type

A miner with a 2.0 security status insuring a hulk would be very low risk.
A PVPer with a -8 security status insuring an ishtar and with 6 recorded ishtar losses and associated payouts is a huge risk.

As it is now insurance is very artificial... and mostly a freebie.
You shouldn't complain about insurance payouts because they are essentially free money for you.






Just off the top of my head, but what if you insure the ship, then remove all the mods and blow it up. The payout could be more than ship is worth. Take a cheap ship, fit it with a bunch of expensive mods, insure it to the hilt. Remove mods, blow up ship, make lots of isk. This is insurance fraud, and a program simply cant handle that.

Id say what we need is for a player corp to insure ships. Take a screen shot of your setup and submit to corp. Corp tells you what it will cost to insure. Once your ship blows up, submit a kill mail for reimbursement. Since this can easily be photoshopped, some investigation will be needed to verify claim.

Since this sounds too complex, Id say just get rid of CCP insurance let the players figure it out.

Letrange
Minmatar
Red Horizon Inc
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2008.05.13 14:52:00 - [26]
 

I don't know, my position on the insurance issue will probably not be popular but here goes:

The current insurance system is basically what is known as "no fault" insurance. It's a feature of more socialist societies. I find it actually horribly out of place with the gritty universe that EvE seems to be trying to portray. Personally I'd love to see things moved even more into the hands of the players. What I'd do is:

1) Move the insurance system away from a universal system and into a corporation system. This would allow CPP to keep the existing insurance system for the newbies (the main reason given for it's continued existance) by providing insurance thru the NPC corps.

2) Allow insurance contracts. Personally I'd like to see renewable contracts where they have a weekly/monthly payment schedule and the contract only dies if the payment isn't met or the ship dies. This would simplify the constantly writing new contracts all the time.

I realize this would possibly unbalance things so it would need to be analyzed ahead of time because it turns off one of the faucets in the game. But it would have the added benefit of removing the mineral floor (for the most part).

Conrad Rock
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.05.13 15:06:00 - [27]
 

A real insurance business would only insure Burn Eden.

None of you would be insured.

Thebro Nobrunder
Schrodinger's Renegades
Posted - 2008.05.13 15:19:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Jonathan Calvert

Just off the top of my head, but what if you insure the ship, then remove all the mods and blow it up. The payout could be more than ship is worth. Take a cheap ship, fit it with a bunch of expensive mods, insure it to the hilt. Remove mods, blow up ship, make lots of isk. This is insurance fraud, and a program simply cant handle that.

Id say what we need is for a player corp to insure ships. Take a screen shot of your setup and submit to corp. Corp tells you what it will cost to insure. Once your ship blows up, submit a kill mail for reimbursement. Since this can easily be photoshopped, some investigation will be needed to verify claim.

Since this sounds too complex, Id say just get rid of CCP insurance let the players figure it out.


This is why I mentioned rigs, but not modules... rigs cannot be removed (without destruction). Therefore it would be valid to insure the ship + rigs.
In any case the ship should never be insured for more than the market price or the purchase price... whichever is lower.



Jonathan Calvert
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.05.13 18:56:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Thebro Nobrunder
Originally by: Jonathan Calvert

Just off the top of my head, but what if you insure the ship, then remove all the mods and blow it up. The payout could be more than ship is worth. Take a cheap ship, fit it with a bunch of expensive mods, insure it to the hilt. Remove mods, blow up ship, make lots of isk. This is insurance fraud, and a program simply cant handle that.

Id say what we need is for a player corp to insure ships. Take a screen shot of your setup and submit to corp. Corp tells you what it will cost to insure. Once your ship blows up, submit a kill mail for reimbursement. Since this can easily be photoshopped, some investigation will be needed to verify claim.

Since this sounds too complex, Id say just get rid of CCP insurance let the players figure it out.


This is why I mentioned rigs, but not modules... rigs cannot be removed (without destruction). Therefore it would be valid to insure the ship + rigs.
In any case the ship should never be insured for more than the market price or the purchase price... whichever is lower.





But even that wouldnt be enough. Mods on my ships are sometimes worth more than the ship and rigs. Perhaps you insure youre assets seperately. Then whichever ship they are on, it doesnt matter. Like home insurance. List your assets. If you buy more, they arent covered. If you sell them, they arent covered. Id say this is too complex to automate though, and eve is a sandbox, so enabling players to make up an insurance company is the way to go, which we already can do. So to the OP, if you dont like CCPs way, make your own.

La5eR
Amarr
Infinite Improbability Inc
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2008.05.13 19:47:00 - [30]
 

Heres what you could do to combat this issue. Since each station is undoubtedly in a region. Why not insure the ship based on this formula <region average> - <region average> * .8. For factional warfare you could take this a step further by modifying that .8 to .5 or there abouts if lets say an amarrian were wanting to insure his/her ship in a gall or min station.


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