open All Channels
seplocked Jita Park Speakers Corner
blankseplocked Corp hopping to avoid a War Dec. Exploit , lame or fine?
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic

Farrqua
Minmatar
In Igne Morim
Posted - 2008.05.12 20:26:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 12/05/2008 18:15:26
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 12/05/2008 17:48:09
Originally by: Esmenet
This is a silly argument that is often repeated but it has no meaning. EVE is based on pvp, and you risk getting blown up the second you log on. If you hate that why are you playing EVE?

...

To use your own words: Many people find this pvp mechanic to be FUN. Why should anyone force us that enjoy this (we pay money too) to stop?



PvP is a major driving force behind the games economy (among other things) but saying that eve is all about pvp and that someone who wishes to mine in peace should play a different game is just being shortsighted. There are many people who do not look for conflict and who do not wish to 'test their mettle' time after time, they just want to mine some veldspar. I believe that NOBODY should be forcing anything on anyone. Carebearing shouldnt be forced on anyone (so no 100% safe zones) and pvp shouldnt be forced on anyone. I believe everyone has a right to play this game, this sandbox game, the way they enjoy it. I also believe people do NOT have the right to ruin anyones gameplay consistently (meaning, one gank is ok, repeatedly targetting the same person to drive him or her out of the game is not). If someone claims their idea of enjoyment is to ruin other peoples fun (thus creating a problem with my two statements), I would suggest them to seek professional counceling.

Then, saying that pvpers would be forced to stop pvping is nonsense, and you clearly cannot turn my words around. There is PvP everywhere. 0.0, low sec, and high sec. If pvpers war dec a corporation, and all members of that corporation leave to an NPC corp, that doesnt stop the pvpers from getting pvp. All they need to do is go to low sec, 0.0 or war dec another corporation. And - if the pvpers have any real balls or desire for actual pvp - they'll war dec an actual pvp corp, instead of industrials.


This sounds like the line of reasoning players use "I was minding my own business why did you kill me?!!!" Which is the same line of reasoning player use to push for flagging and instancing which dilutes or can destroy the PVP aspect of the game.

I do not care how you package it, EVE is conflict. The threat is always there to everyone no matter how new, old or how small your corp is. It is up to the player/corp/alliance to figure out how to deal with it.

One of things I would like to see the CSM's to do first before anything else is to help the new players understand EVE. (and probably some of the existing ones)Once players understand truly what EVE is really about you will see less frivolous whines and more focused issues to address.

I sit in the n00b NPC channel from time to time and I see all types of misstatements, misconceptions and false understandings. And these new players get eaten alive when they get into the mainstream EVE because most of the things they have learned are wrong.

Best thing I can suggest is to find a better vehicle to help our player base understand the game a lot better.

ShardowRhino
Caldari
Torque Theory
Posted - 2008.05.13 06:01:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Arcani Victus
Don't make it appear as if all wardecs are performed by griefers. There are legitimate reasons for a lot of wars, and when the enemy hops corps, it's very frustrating. I think that if you want to leave a corp at war, you should still be a valid wartarget (or at least flashing red) for 72 hours.



mother frakker still ripping off my idea? My idea(the original,shown in another thread) was to have the members that leave the corp remain valid targets for the endurance of the first week of the wardec.

Someone mentioned paying to have to leave a wardeced corp, that could work in tandem with my idea above. The fee would go to the decing corp's wallet, basically a ransom . It should also be up to the wardecing corp to allow such and to set the fee.

Those that leave a corp that was wardeced should have to wait a week before joining any corp including the one they abandoned. This penalty will discourage corphoppers looking to avoid a wardec.

As for jacking up the price of a wardec in an apparent move to pander to those that dont want to fight in a PVP(ask the devs) game is a bad idea. As another thread went over, 0.0 aka the only 100% open pvp zone isn't exactly open to the public if your a small corp. lowsec is empty and you still have to worry about gate guns which reduces where you can fight and when. anyone screwing with you in empire is basically immune. ore laundering and suicide ganks leaves the victim with few options, 1 being a wardec.

Sure there might be 100man corps decing new 5man corps of new players, that sucks for the little guy. But to jack up the cost to 100mil(the current going rate to dec an alliance) is going to virtually remove the 1 tool people have for empire justice. also without conditions for those that bail out of a decced corp the original aggressor could further grief the victim that turns to a wardec to get some justice.

EVE is either fluffy,fuzzy warm land or its a cold,harsh gaming world. What is it going to be?

jacking up wardec costs + leaving the system as it is = disneyland

patching up the loopholes for corphopping+leaving dec costs as is(remember they do stack)=walking through Compton at 3am wearing the wrong colors. one is happy and non threatening and the other will get you killed if you make a wrong move.

If people are unwilling to fight to save their corp then they don't deserve to be in a corp. They should stick to npc corps where they will never have to worry about another wardec the rest of their eve lives.


I don't want an eve council of players if they are going to end up acting like the government spoon feeding us and telling us to play nice. PVP no matter who is the aggressor should not be the sole domain of 0.0 alliances.

IF CCP were to listen to any of the fluffy feel good ideas above then lets slap billions of isk wardec fees on alliances. no alliance wardec= you cant shoot at non blue targets. that would truly open up 0.0 to the small corps as they would be immune since concord will come in and blast you for attacking a non deced player. But im sure you'll think this idea is absurd but it is equal to 100m wardecs as well as no penalty for leaving a corp that is deced.

Not everyone enjoys massive fleet lagfests using specified ships and fittings. Not everyone wants to be in a massive corp. Not everyone wants to follow someone else's rules. Not everyone wants to participate in pos warfare. Huge wardec fees is just 1 step closer to making us choose an alliance at the character selection screen. Alliance warfare just isn't everyone's style so don't remove the means to create our own pvp with similar rules to that of 0.0 .

Don't want to pvp ever? dont put yourself in a position to be attacked for whatever reason. Next on the list will be agreements in order for people to "surprise pvp" another person in lowsec. If they dont agree to let you attack they are immune until they decide. FFS, is this hello kitty or eve?

ellie mayer
Posted - 2008.05.13 07:12:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: ellie mayer on 13/05/2008 07:25:44
Dude, you're blood pressure, have some herbal tea, take a break andDude, you're blood pressure, have some herbal tea, take a break and calm down !!!

Don't think many who are in corp want to be immune from wars, certainly not see a lot of evidence here.

It's a thread about corp hoping to avoid a dec.

This problem is mainly caused by the random dec comming out of the blue from corps who specialise in empire wars and are nothing on the whole to do with punishment, wars for a reason are generally fought out between corps with a balanced player base.

In you're post you mention the way wars are the only way of empire justice, this view would be valid if the deccing corp was a industrial corp as well but most of the time they are just pvp'ers, an incresing cost of a dec wouldn't effect the justice war's just the random one's declared for fun.

Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.13 08:01:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Ankhesentapemkah on 13/05/2008 08:13:50
Originally by: Farrqua
This sounds like the line of reasoning players use "I was minding my own business why did you kill me?!!!" Which is the same line of reasoning player use to push for flagging and instancing which dilutes or can destroy the PVP aspect of the game.

I do not care how you package it, EVE is conflict. The threat is always there to everyone no matter how new, old or how small your corp is. It is up to the player/corp/alliance to figure out how to deal with it.

The problem is that the current game mechanics allow for situations where one just cannot deal with. One sided mechanics that favor aggressors and griefers without giving the small defending parties and victims of crime any chance of resolve.

Currently war mechanics are just a free for all shootout which can completely push small groups of players out of the game. How long can you remain docked up? Weeks? Months? Remember that this is a GAME, which is meant to be played and provide fun, and that players are not paying to see the inside of a station, hoping for the dec to go off. If other players can completely and continuously destroy your ability to play the game, and thus make it impossible for you to have fun, then there's something wrong with the mechanics.

Remember that there are people in this game that demand people being kicked from NPC corps as well as keeping people valid targets if they leave a decced corp! This is absurd and only shows that the mindset of these players is to grief and harrass weak and defenseless players. This behaviour is disgusting and not even worthy of being called PVP.

PVP in itself is fine and an integral part of the game. But it should not turn into a endless one sided slaughter which cannot be avoided by the weaker party. Likewise, it should be possible for players to resolve conflicts in hi-sec. But that does not mean that unprovoked, deliberate and continous griefing is excusable.

The problem is that there's no CONCORD committee on the other side that reviews the wardecs like they would in real life. There's a stupid computer on the other side, which cannot see if a wardec is a valid provoked one or just being used to bend the rules and shoot at people that are "minding their own business" for no valid strategic or economic reason at all.

Because we are dealing with dumb computers here, the only way we could address issues is through rigid and inflexible structures. And it is always a challenge to account for human behaviour.

Thus it will be quite a challenge to come up with an alternative system that still allows players to engage in conflicts, while giving weaker, non agressive players some protection from obvious bullies. Especially because as soon as one percieved issue is fixed, other types of players will make use of the system as well. And a computer cannot see who is a peaceful small industrial corp, opposed to who has been stripping belts all the time in another corps 'home' system, and who are a notorious group of canflippers and ore thieves.


Originally by: Farrqua

One of things I would like to see the CSM's to do first before anything else is to help the new players understand EVE. (and probably some of the existing ones)Once players understand truly what EVE is really about you will see less frivolous whines and more focused issues to address.

I sit in the n00b NPC channel from time to time and I see all types of misstatements, misconceptions and false understandings. And these new players get eaten alive when they get into the mainstream EVE because most of the things they have learned are wrong.

Best thing I can suggest is to find a better vehicle to help our player base understand the game a lot better.

Understand what? "Hey your sole purpose in this game is to be food for the top dogs, now bend over and get it!"

I don't think you know what a GAME in general is about.

Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Posted - 2008.05.13 10:28:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Ben Derindar on 13/05/2008 10:30:03
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Originally by: Farrqua

One of things I would like to see the CSM's to do first before anything else is to help the new players understand EVE. (and probably some of the existing ones)Once players understand truly what EVE is really about you will see less frivolous whines and more focused issues to address.

I sit in the n00b NPC channel from time to time and I see all types of misstatements, misconceptions and false understandings. And these new players get eaten alive when they get into the mainstream EVE because most of the things they have learned are wrong.

Best thing I can suggest is to find a better vehicle to help our player base understand the game a lot better.

Understand what? "Hey your sole purpose in this game is to be food for the top dogs, now bend over and get it!"

I don't think you know what a GAME in general is about.

Respectfully Ankh, I think you mistake Eve for being just like any other game.

I agree with Farrqua, and I have all the time in the world for the volunteers who spend their time in the noob channels answering questions. I do it myself on my alts occasionally as well, and that's enough for me. Smile EDIT: hopefully the Evelopedia project will help with this down the track, too.

/Ben

Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.13 11:01:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah

The problem is that the current game mechanics allow for situations where one just cannot deal with. One sided mechanics that favor aggressors and griefers without giving the small defending parties and victims of crime any chance of resolve.

Currently war mechanics are just a free for all shootout which can completely push small groups of players out of the game. How long can you remain docked up? Weeks? Months? Remember that this is a GAME, which is meant to be played and provide fun, and that players are not paying to see the inside of a station, hoping for the dec to go off. If other players can completely and continuously destroy your ability to play the game, and thus make it impossible for you to have fun, then there's something wrong with the mechanics.


That is simply not true and shows your complete lack of experience. If anything its your mindset that sets the limits, not the game mechanics. Its very easy to avoid combat in high sec even when there is a war on if you know what you are doing. You will be a little less effective at grinding isk but it will in no way stop you from playing.

Its much easier to avoid combat than to stop someone from getting away. But it requires you to be smart, pay attention and preferably get your corp to work as a team.

Quote:

Remember that there are people in this game that demand people being kicked from NPC corps as well as keeping people valid targets if they leave a decced corp! This is absurd and only shows that the mindset of these players is to grief and harrass weak and defenseless players. This behaviour is disgusting and not even worthy of being called PVP.


If you are weak and defenseless thats your own choice.

Quote:

PVP in itself is fine and an integral part of the game. But it should not turn into a endless one sided slaughter which cannot be avoided by the weaker party. Likewise, it should be possible for players to resolve conflicts in hi-sec. But that does not mean that unprovoked, deliberate and continous griefing is excusable.


It has nothing to do with griefing.

Quote:

And a computer cannot see who is a peaceful small industrial corp, opposed to who has been stripping belts all the time in another corps 'home' system, and who are a notorious group of canflippers and ore thieves.

In EVE a "peacful" small industrial corp is doing pvp, on a market level.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.13 12:29:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Something should be done about wardeccing corps that love to stomp smaller corps for the heck of it.

Quote:
However, declaring war is also used as means to deliver payback to corps that engage in griefing and hi-sec crime. And if there's some new mechanic which allows corps to avoid wardecs even more easily than corp-hopping, you can bet that these criminals will use it.

Unbiased, right? :D Griefers? What? If one can't take the heat should stay in n00b corp forever. Some evolve though.
Quote:
Hmm, something which discourages unprovoked wardecs, and encourages provoked ones...

Babe, can you please define "provoked" and "unprovoked"... no offense what you said here is meaningless, you can't define those therefore you can't really make a difference between them.
Quote:
current game mechanics allow for situations where one just cannot deal with. One sided mechanics that favor aggressors and griefers without giving the small defending parties and victims of crime any chance of resolve.

No, some can't deal with. And those don't belong to this game. I have survived wardecs while being in a small industrial corp. The corp eventually didn't. All members that wanted to, learned from that experience and took steps to try and avoid wars they can't win in the future.
Quote:
How long can you remain docked up?

How long you want to? What do you intend to do about it?
Quote:
If other players can completely and continuously destroy your ability to play the game, and thus make it impossible for you to have fun

Eve is the land of all possibilities. It has been proven countless times. :D
Quote:
Remember that there are people in this game that demand people being kicked from NPC corps as well as keeping people valid targets if they leave a decced corp! This is absurd and only shows that the mindset of these players is to grief and harrass weak and defenseless players. This behaviour is disgusting and not even worthy of being called PVP.

Worried to lose your nice cozy n00b corp? If someone is harrassing you, report them! There's a section under "petitions" for that if I'm not wrong. F12 if I remember correctly. Other than that, adapt. All of us need to adapt, constantly, as the game and we are changing.
Quote:
PVP in itself is fine and an integral part of the game. But it should not turn into a endless one sided slaughter which cannot be avoided by the weaker party. Likewise, it should be possible for players to resolve conflicts in hi-sec. But that does not mean that unprovoked, deliberate and continous griefing is excusable.

Are you proposing a quake-like, FFA or gladiator system (only consentual PVP with matchmaking)? Half the players will cancel their accounts if that happens. Really.
I remember someone saying, in Eve all PvP is consentual - you agree to it when you log in. I came to accept this, with time. I wasn't always the fearsome PvPer I am today. :)
Quote:
we are dealing with dumb computers here, the only way we could address issues is through rigid and inflexible structures. And it is always a challenge to account for human behaviour.

Catchy phrases. You're good at talking without content.
Overally, the wardec system is flawed. The least would be to drastically increase the fees. But you can't really create a matchmaking system to make sure only evenly "powerful" corps can fight without ruining Eve as it is. Besides, it'd be too easy to go around it. Average SP based corp matching? Join n00b alts. Total SP based comparison? Specialized alt corps. Wealth? Carebears have more isk than pvpers. You could somehow match the wardeccer corp's SP to the industrial corp's wallet for example, but that's really tough because of the (dynamically changing) merc fees.

There's shooting others, market PvP, forum PvP... it's all pvp. Yes hisec ganking is flawed as it is now, too, but doesn't mean it has to be removed; as another example.

Farrqua
Minmatar
In Igne Morim
Posted - 2008.05.13 14:58:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Farrqua on 13/05/2008 14:58:57
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah

Understand what? "Hey your sole purpose in this game is to be food for the top dogs, now bend over and get it!"

I don't think you know what a GAME in general is about.


For some one that is supposed to be listening to the player base you seem to have selective hearing.

You also seem not to understand what THIS GAME is about.

Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.13 17:34:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Esmenet
That is simply not true and shows your complete lack of experience. If anything its your mindset that sets the limits, not the game mechanics. Its very easy to avoid combat in high sec even when there is a war on if you know what you are doing. You will be a little less effective at grinding isk but it will in no way stop you from playing.

Its much easier to avoid combat than to stop someone from getting away. But it requires you to be smart, pay attention and preferably get your corp to work as a team.

Yes and if your corp consists of say, 5 real life friends, their teamplay can be good but they're still going to be pinned down.

What are they going to do when the attacking corp found out what station they're in? You can't undock if there are 15 players waiting outside. Even if you fit to avoid getting scrambled and safely get into warp, what are you going to do? You can't run missions if you got a rack of stabs fitted, especially if foes can warp in any time. And you can't hang around in belts for very long either. And I personally wouldn't haul much goods if I know there are a bunch of guys out to get me.

Quote:
If you are weak and defenseless thats your own choice.


Yes of course every new player is automatically head of an alliance with a few dozen titans.

There is always a bigger fish around, and it's not the indiviual player's fault that there is. There must be some mechanics around to prevent stronger parties pushing around weaker ones, especially in hi-sec.

No I don't want to turn this game into WoW/HKO, and I wouldn't want to see player freedoms hollowed out. But that doesn't mean that there aren't any issues with the current wardec system.

Quote:
It has nothing to do with griefing.

Then tell me what wardeccing 10 men players with 100+ PvP skilled characters for no reason at all is?

Quote:

In EVE a "peacful" small industrial corp is doing pvp, on a market level.


However, that often is not the reason why these corps get wardecced.

Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.13 17:54:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Sariyah
Babe, can you please define "provoked" and "unprovoked"... no offense what you said here is meaningless, you can't define those therefore you can't really make a difference between them.

Its extremely easy to define them, but it's impossible for a computer to distinguish them.

Provoked: Corps that canflipped your members, took salvage in missions, mine continously in 'your' system, undercut your prices on the market, and so on.
Unprovoked: You've never dealt with these guys but just dec them to ruin their enjoyment.

Quote:
No, some can't deal with. And those don't belong to this game. I have survived wardecs while being in a small industrial corp. The corp eventually didn't. All members that wanted to, learned from that experience and took steps to try and avoid wars they can't win in the future.

Guess what would happen to Eve if a non-PVP server opens. I've seen it happen with another game. These players mean much more to the game than you credit them for.


Quote:
Eve is the land of all possibilities. It has been proven countless times. :D

Yep give me some concrete ways for a 5 men friend corp to deal with a 150 man grief corp that just wants to keep them decced indefinately.

Quote:
Worried to lose your nice cozy n00b corp? If someone is harrassing you, report them! There's a section under "petitions" for that if I'm not wrong. F12 if I remember correctly. Other than that, adapt. All of us need to adapt, constantly, as the game and we are changing.

Demanding that players simply adapt is no excuse for faulty game mechanics.

Quote:
Are you proposing a quake-like, FFA or gladiator system (only consentual PVP with matchmaking)?

No.

Quote:
Half the players will cancel their accounts if that happens.

Yeah the vast majority that never leaves hi-sec, surely will. ugh

Quote:

Really.
I remember someone saying, in Eve all PvP is consentual - you agree to it when you log in. I came to accept this, with time. I wasn't always the fearsome PvPer I am today. :)

PVP is fine, GRIEFING is not.

Quote:
Catchy phrases. You're good at talking without content.
Overally, the wardec system is flawed. The least would be to drastically increase the fees. But you can't really create a matchmaking system to make sure only evenly "powerful" corps can fight without ruining Eve as it is. Besides, it'd be too easy to go around it. Average SP based corp matching? Join n00b alts. Total SP based comparison? Specialized alt corps. Wealth? Carebears have more isk than pvpers. You could somehow match the wardeccer corp's SP to the industrial corp's wallet for example, but that's really tough because of the (dynamically changing) merc fees.

There's shooting others, market PvP, forum PvP... it's all pvp. Yes hisec ganking is flawed as it is now, too, but doesn't mean it has to be removed; as another example.

I already said that it probably is impossible to program a dumb computer to detect the difference between griefing and valid PVP. And that any change to the mechanics will most likely only result in 'creative use'. All of these things need to be taken into consideration, and we definately do not want to hurt legitimate corp warfare.

Farrqua
Minmatar
In Igne Morim
Posted - 2008.05.13 18:33:00 - [41]
 

Personally I do not think you know what the difference is. I really think you have no idea about corp structure, war dec'ing, PvP, griefing nor what it takes to make a corp successful. You are not intouch with this side of EVE, and unfortunately that side of EVE is the meat of the game.

You have a great fire Ank, and I truly do respect that, but you are blinded by your own agenda's.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.13 19:57:00 - [42]
 

The fundamental flaw is that there's no such thing as griefing, not in the sense people like to use this word. Pvp is not griefing, even tho if from some people's point of view it seems to be.
So griefing and wardec are two words that should not appear in the same sentence normally. Corp hopping is lame, get out and stay in a noob corp for a while if **** hits the fan and you can't handle it. For now, CCP protects you that way. You can still use the same chat and voice comm, can gang up etc. so it should not be an issue.
Never did it, but if at some point in my Eve life I want to find and wardec a juicy full industrial corp, I want to be able to do so. It is one of my fundamental rights that I simply refuse to give up.
You'd be surprised, some people actually can solve war problems; hiring mercs, calling some friends into corp temporarily to help, etc. It just takes a little bit of thinking, effort and diplomacy. Keywords that might be missing from full newb corps, this is why they either grow up quickly or perish. Oh well, tough ****e.
You seem to be a very naive nice young girl with a lot of time to spare, and I wish you success in both RL and Eve, but I hope you're not going to represent people here. There's better and more experienced carebears at that.

MongWen
Xeno Tech Corp
Self Destruct.
Posted - 2008.05.13 20:55:00 - [43]
 

Corp hoping is done in three ways (that I have seen). (reason for the war is irrelevant, and so is member count)

Example 1:
Corp A decs Corp B, Corp B does not want to fight and leaves, and recreates under the same name. And all members join back in. (if its done repeatedly is considered an exploit by CCP)

Example 2:
Corp A decs Corp B, Corp B does not want to fight so they disband, and creates Corp C, all members that was in Corp B joins up (is not considered an exploit by CCP)

Example 3:
Corp A decs Corp B, Corp B does not want to fight so they disband leaving 1 place holder to keep, and creates Corp C, all members that was in Corp B joins up, after the war against Corp B is over members in Corp C jumps back to Corp B (can be considered an exploit by CCP if done repeatedly)

Now I have seen both examples being used in game, I have war dec’ed a larger Corp than my Corp (pre the creation of UCAM), and seen them disband and create a new corp within the 24 hour warm up timer.

Short info on the war mechanic:
For a corp to war dec a corp/alliance, it takes 24 hours to vote to go to war or not, and a other 24 hour wait to fight. Cost: 2 mil (corp), 50 mil (alliance)
For an alliance to war dec a corp/alliance, it takes 24 for the warm up timer. Cost: 50 mil
To end a war takes 24 hours to cool down (regardless of what way it is done).
Now to leave a corp, it takes 24 hours if you have roles, and seconds if you don’t have any roles.

Now for a corp that deces an other corp normally does it for a reason, and it is far form the goal of the aggressing corp to disband the target since if the target jumps corps just to start doing the same thing that you deced them for, is not a victory in my mind and the isk spent on the dec just doubled since the aggressor will dec that corp in order to get to the goal.

And there are corps that just decs in order to have easy targets and ganks where ever they can find it. But basing a change to the war dec mechanic on that kind of play style is bad.

Jumping form a corp should be a last resort, there are ways to avoid wars in game at the moment. And denying the aggressor’s kills they want and ignoring them gets them bored, and more likely for them to drop the war dec. A player corp can get friendly corps in game to help you. Or hire mercs, and there are more ways to avoid a war.

Form my point of view as a player, the war mechanics needs a work over, and for fixes I don’t think that upping the price will solve anything since that may limit wars to the Corps and alliances that has massive amounts of isk to throw away, not where I want eve to go. And forcing the defending corp to stay is a bit too harsh, same goes for flagging them for the remaining time of the war.

Personally I would like to see the flag idea to last 48 hours after the dec mails are sent, Or locking them form leaving within that amount of time. This can also act as a kicker to get bigger corps and prevent what most carebears call “grief”.

Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.13 21:45:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Sariyah
The fundamental flaw is that there's no such thing as griefing, not in the sense people like to use this word. Pvp is not griefing, even tho if from some people's point of view it seems to be.

So griefing and wardec are two words that should not appear in the same sentence normally.

I did not say it was.

PVP and griefing are just as different as PVE is to PVP. It is just that people in Eve use PVP tools as means to accomplish grief. That does not mean it is restricted to PVP. In other games with limited PVP options, people often use PVE tools to grief: A powerful player following a younger one around and killing all the NPCs around him so he cannot complete quests or gain xp/loot/whatever is a PVE example of griefing.

Griefing is any antisocial action that is aimed at upsetting others and deliberately ruining their enjoyment for the sake of it. Not for isk or strategic objectives, no, to go out and see how you can frustrate another player, destroying as much of his work as possible in the process (which is probably why people mistake griefing for PVP). Bonus points if they can't do anything about it. Actually it's a form of harrassment, but good luck building a case.

Originally by: Sariyah
Corp hopping is lame, get out and stay in a noob corp for a while if **** hits the fan and you can't handle it. For now, CCP protects you that way. You can still use the same chat and voice comm, can gang up etc. so it should not be an issue.
Never did it, but if at some point in my Eve life I want to find and wardec a juicy full industrial corp, I want to be able to do so. It is one of my fundamental rights that I simply refuse to give up.
You'd be surprised, some people actually can solve war problems; hiring mercs, calling some friends into corp temporarily to help, etc. It just takes a little bit of thinking, effort and diplomacy. Keywords that might be missing from full newb corps, this is why they either grow up quickly or perish. Oh well, tough ****e.
You seem to be a very naive nice young girl with a lot of time to spare, and I wish you success in both RL and Eve, but I hope you're not going to represent people here. There's better and more experienced carebears at that.

Then I'm going to prove you wrong. Cool

Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
Posted - 2008.05.13 22:03:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Something should be done about wardeccing corps that love to stomp smaller corps for the heck of it


Yea, they should buck up and fight. Or hire some mercs.


Yeah that's really going to help your 5-10 man real-life friend corp that just got wardecced by some 100 man grief corp. As if they have the funds to hire enough mercs in the first place.

Please justify the 5-10 man real-life friend corp's right to exist.


Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.13 22:11:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah

Yes and if your corp consists of say, 5 real life friends, their teamplay can be good but they're still going to be pinned down.

What are they going to do when the attacking corp found out what station they're in? You can't undock if there are 15 players waiting outside. Even if you fit to avoid getting scrambled and safely get into warp, what are you going to do? You can't run missions if you got a rack of stabs fitted, especially if foes can warp in any time. And you can't hang around in belts for very long either. And I personally wouldn't haul much goods if I know there are a bunch of guys out to get me.


You have never actually been in a war have you?

Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.13 22:24:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah

Yes and if your corp consists of say, 5 real life friends, their teamplay can be good but they're still going to be pinned down.

What are they going to do when the attacking corp found out what station they're in? You can't undock if there are 15 players waiting outside. Even if you fit to avoid getting scrambled and safely get into warp, what are you going to do? You can't run missions if you got a rack of stabs fitted, especially if foes can warp in any time. And you can't hang around in belts for very long either. And I personally wouldn't haul much goods if I know there are a bunch of guys out to get me.


You have never actually been in a war have you?

Actually I have.

Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:12:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Roy Batty68
Please justify the 5-10 man real-life friend corp's right to exist.


It is fun.
It is allowed by game mechanics.
It does not harm other players.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.13 23:17:00 - [49]
 

Edited by: Sariyah on 13/05/2008 23:20:59
Game mechanics allow it sometimes, sometimes don't Rolling Eyes
Sometimes the big fish eat the small one. If they meet. Keeping a low profile in a low-populated area helps, too...

Farrqua
Minmatar
In Igne Morim
Posted - 2008.05.14 03:11:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Farrqua on 14/05/2008 03:16:22
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Originally by: Sariyah
The fundamental flaw is that there's no such thing as griefing, not in the sense people like to use this word. Pvp is not griefing, even tho if from some people's point of view it seems to be.

So griefing and wardec are two words that should not appear in the same sentence normally.

I did not say it was.

PVP and griefing are just as different as PVE is to PVP. It is just that people in Eve use PVP tools as means to accomplish grief. That does not mean it is restricted to PVP. In other games with limited PVP options, people often use PVE tools to grief: A powerful player following a younger one around and killing all the NPCs around him so he cannot complete quests or gain xp/loot/whatever is a PVE example of griefing.

Griefing is any antisocial action that is aimed at upsetting others and deliberately ruining their enjoyment for the sake of it. Not for isk or strategic objectives, no, to go out and see how you can frustrate another player, destroying as much of his work as possible in the process (which is probably why people mistake griefing for PVP). Bonus points if they can't do anything about it. Actually it's a form of harrassment, but good luck building a case.

Originally by: Sariyah
Corp hopping is lame, get out and stay in a noob corp for a while if **** hits the fan and you can't handle it. For now, CCP protects you that way. You can still use the same chat and voice comm, can gang up etc. so it should not be an issue.
Never did it, but if at some point in my Eve life I want to find and wardec a juicy full industrial corp, I want to be able to do so. It is one of my fundamental rights that I simply refuse to give up.
You'd be surprised, some people actually can solve war problems; hiring mercs, calling some friends into corp temporarily to help, etc. It just takes a little bit of thinking, effort and diplomacy. Keywords that might be missing from full newb corps, this is why they either grow up quickly or perish. Oh well, tough ****e.
You seem to be a very naive nice young girl with a lot of time to spare, and I wish you success in both RL and Eve, but I hope you're not going to represent people here. There's better and more experienced carebears at that.

Then I'm going to prove you wrong. Cool


You have not proven anything. You keep dancing around the issue and you offer no solutions. I think you are afraid to really tell us what you want to do because you will probably will get blasted right off the forums.

All you have shown is your personal vendetta towards players you perceive as Griefers. From what I have read from your previous posts, you seem to be leaning very hard to restricting PvP and pushing your own agenda.


Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.14 06:48:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Guess what would happen to Eve if a non-PVP server opens. I've seen it happen with another game. These players mean much more to the game than you credit them for.


I did laugh of this idea irl Very Happy It would die by itself after everyone is a billionaire with personal titans.

Eve online is considered a hardcore game by many, rightfully. It is not supposed to be a wow even if some would want it to be (why?). If I want cartoonish easy entertainment where I never actually lose I play that or similar games.

Cipher7
Posted - 2008.05.14 06:52:00 - [52]
 


Yes corp hopping to avoid war is an exploit, but so are %99 of wardecs out there.

Wardec is supposed to be meaningful, for some purpose, not just to turn Eve into BF2.

And no "we want to take their loot" is not a real reason, if you want to do piracy go to lowsec, theres an entire universe open to robbery and gatecamping, but no you still suck on the highsec teat by wardeccing random "mining corps" or whatnot.

System sec 1.0 to 0.0 is supposed to exist for a reason, it is supposed to become more unsafe as you go lower, highsec is not supposed to be the most heavily pirated area in Eve.

At the same time I feel that level 3 and level 4 missions in highsec is completely unsuitable.

Highsec is supposed to be the newbie playground area, there should be no pirates, 4-year old carebears, chinese farmers, or anybody else living in highsec on a permanent basis.

From my viewpoint the mechanics of the game are essentially broken and being exploited on a daily basis by everybody, gankbears, carebears, mercs, pirates, griefers, twits, goons, farmers, and everybody else.

So really who cares if hopping is an exploit.

Fix the other exploits first.

Make wardec cost 500m a day, which is what it SHOULD cost, then we can talk about making corp hopping an exploit.

Wtf is 2-3 million? Thats 1 mission by 1 person. You're saying I can run 1 mission and **** a mining corp for an entire week? That's just silly. Why do you even bother putting a fee, you might as well just make it free.

Theres individuals out there making 2-3 bil a month, thats just 1 person, you want to wardec a corp? Ok pay 500m a day, which should be easily affordable to any serious corp.

Also the cost of CREATING a corporation is way too low. 1.6 mil? Thats another joke.

Corp creation should cost 1 bil.

No more noobs running corps. If you cant farm 1 bil then you have no business running anything.

Once all that is set, then I would be ok with having to pay 500m to leave a corp during a war.

But no, you don't get to eradicate one exploit while all the other exploits are still in place, they have to be fixed at the same time.

Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.14 09:11:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Farrqua
You have not proven anything. You keep dancing around the issue and you offer no solutions. I think you are afraid to really tell us what you want to do because you will probably will get blasted right off the forums.

I have already done that in the past, and I don't care for the flamers and trolls and what they say, because for every one of those there are at least three players that agree with what I say. I have never been affraid to tell what I want, and there's plenty of posting history to prove that.

Originally by: Farrqua
All you have shown is your personal vendetta towards players you perceive as Griefers. From what I have read from your previous posts, you seem to be leaning very hard to restricting PvP and pushing your own agenda.

Read my candidacy FAQ:
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=763232&page=1#2

I want MORE PVP not less.

Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.14 09:24:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Sariyah
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah
Guess what would happen to Eve if a non-PVP server opens. I've seen it happen with another game. These players mean much more to the game than you credit them for.


I did laugh of this idea irl Very Happy It would die by itself after everyone is a billionaire with personal titans.


Actually what happened in 2000 with the Renaissance release in Ultima Online was that 80-90% rushed to the PVE part and never returned for PVP. The 10-20% of the PVPers whined and moaned now that all their easy targets were gone, because now they only had eachother to battle, and they were not looking for fair fights, apparantly.

The economy did not go to hell. Items still wore out back in those days and you could easily lose them to PVE monsters too (this was changed in 2003 with the Age of Shadows expansion, which totally destroyed the economy and the item system).

The addition of a non-PVP server led to a huge increase in subscriptions, which can be seen in this graph here:
http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html

Even though Eve is a lot more PVP orientated, it cannot do without the PVE players.

Originally by: Sariyah
Eve online is considered a hardcore game by many, rightfully. It is not supposed to be a wow even if some would want it to be (why?). If I want cartoonish easy entertainment where I never actually lose I play that or similar games.

I wouldn't want Eve to be like WoW or like any other game.

ShardowRhino
Caldari
Torque Theory
Posted - 2008.05.14 12:02:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah

Yes and if your corp consists of say, 5 real life friends, their teamplay can be good but they're still going to be pinned down.

What are they going to do when the attacking corp found out what station they're in? You can't undock if there are 15 players waiting outside. Even if you fit to avoid getting scrambled and safely get into warp, what are you going to do? You can't run missions if you got a rack of stabs fitted, especially if foes can warp in any time. And you can't hang around in belts for very long either. And I personally wouldn't haul much goods if I know there are a bunch of guys out to get me.

There is always a bigger fish around, and it's not the indiviual player's fault that there is. There must be some mechanics around to prevent stronger parties pushing around weaker ones, especially in hi-sec.





First off this is a game and its SUPPOSED to be "pvp based". You say you want to avoid making it like wow yet all you have to say is "I want it to be fair!!!". I thought eve was pushed as a "cold hard world where no one gives a damn about you so you better learn fast" kind of game. I thought all of the countless posts backed it up. I thought the devs mentioning it also reinforced that crazy idea, that lie i was fed about this game.

Eve is also pushed as a sandbox where the players determine what they do. If people have to fill out forms and prove that their wardec is "justified" to you and everyone else in the game then that destroys the sandbox idea,does it not? You start regulating things like wardecs and your discouraging "PVP".

PVP is player vs player, in no way does it say "equally skilled and equally equipped player versus player"fighting. You "say" you want to avoid making a match up system and dont want to degrade player freedom but at the same time your pushing for exactly that.

Player freedom? It is my corp or any other corp's choice to wardec another corp. It is just as much a choice for 5 friends to make their own little corp. I nor anyone else forced them to make that decision to leave the safety of npc corps. They chose to take a step that opened up a slew of possibilities and one of those is getting wardeced. They took a step that set them up for rewards but because they are 5 friends that are new players they are immune to the risks?

If you saw a 2week old nub cruising in 0.0 ratting it up would you not pop him if he isnt blue? I doubt few will say "oh i feel sorry for the nubkin so ill let him keep his shiny new bs,aww how cute!". What would really happen is that little nub will be screaming "****!!!" as you and a gang have you way with his ship. While hes crying about you attacking him and asking why hes now floating in an egg your not going to show mercy, your going to pop him or attempt a ransom. If you still say you would, remember you cant blow up ships with your mining lasers anyways.

Remember there are players that are mercenaries. Those players would NEVER have justification for a wardec if you change it to some fluffy system you want to install. They are not the ones being given the justification to use a wardec. That playstyle is Dead once your idea is put in game.

Mercs would be a way for a weak group to get some help. Also if your so interested in saving the endangered carebear your corp could make a life of being an equalizer.

ShardowRhino
Caldari
Torque Theory
Posted - 2008.05.14 12:13:00 - [56]
 



The idea of people remaining WTs even if they leave a corp could go either way. Either a griefer could still hunt someone down that tried to avoid fighting by leaving the corp OR a griefer that is in a corp that was wardeced will get to be hunted. The griefer that abandoned his corp wouldn't be able to get away with what he did to **** off the decing corp. Instead he has to watch his back.

Since we are dealing with computers and not a council or police force there is no way to go after someone 15minutes after he steals your ore. He gets away with it and no one is keeping track of how bad this guy is. Theres no detective tracking the guy down and no database to show what crimes hes commited and gotten away with.

There is no other way to deal with such a person 15minutes after he steals your ore, other then a wardec. BUT he can also use the same broken mechanic that fluffy carebears can use to avoid empire justice.

All in all you cant screw over one group without screwing over others. If someone is trying to get elected into some council in eve, someone shouldn't be pushing for ways to destroy the game.

It is not anyone's fault if new players want to set out and make their own corp. Been there, done that myself but we knew the risks the entire time. Your idea of jacking up wardec costs in addition to the current system and trying to justify everything(regulate) is equal to the government spoon feeding people while keeping them hogtied.

"RISK VS REWARD", something people obviously don't even have the prerequisite skills for.

Mundia
Posted - 2008.05.14 12:17:00 - [57]
 

One thought from me:

I think EVE is pvp at it's heart. However many people fail to realize PVP is also economics (e.g. market PVP, the ability to bring enough materials on the battlefield sustainedly, etc.). To fix the loophole where small or industrial corps have no ability to fight, I have long held the belief CONCORD should be allowed to be paid off in an equal amount by the receiver of a wardec to stop a war (24 hour cooldown). This does two things:

1. Creates another ISK sink keeping possible future inflation under control
2. Allows people that do not want to fight with assets, but are willing to pay to get rid of a war to resolve a war peacefully.

I realize the problem could be that it takes away from people using mercs, but those that wish to incur losses on the wardeccing party still will use mercs. Now additionally there may be a need to either limit concurrent wardecs and/or allow the wardeccing party to raise the stakes.

Candidates your thoughts?

Sunwillow Auryn
Posted - 2008.05.14 12:39:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: AnkhesentapemkahActually what happened in 2000 with the Renaissance release in Ultima Online was that 80-90% rushed to the PVE part and never returned for PVP. The 10-20% of the PVPers whined and moaned now that all their easy targets were gone, because now they only had eachother to battle, and they were not looking for fair fights, apparantly.

The economy did not go to hell. Items still wore out back in those days and you could easily lose them to PVE monsters too (this was changed in 2003 with the Age of Shadows expansion, which totally destroyed the economy and the item system).

The addition of a non-PVP server led to a huge increase in subscriptions, which can be seen in this graph here:
[url="http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html"

http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html[/url]

Even though Eve is a lot more PVP orientated, it cannot do without the PVE players.


Long term MMORPGers see this pattern in almost every game produced - EVE is actually quite unusual in managing to maintin its PvP credentials as long as it has. Examples:

Meridian 59 was pure PVP on all of its servers (I think there were something like 10 English speaking, 10 German speaking and maybe some more at its height in the late 90s), but as soon as other games came onto the marketplace that allowed pure PvE (notably EverQuest), the populations plumetted.

Everquest, the first MMORPG that broke 100 thou subscribers, had over 30 servers at its peak, of which 3 were PvP of varying types. Now the ratio is something like 15 to 1.

WoW, which regardless of what you think of the game is still the most popular ever, has 100% PvP and also allows consensual PvP on the PvE servers. Similar 10:1 ratio of PvE to PvP, and look on the PvEs and you will see next to no one with the PvP flag enabled.

And so on.

PvE is a massive part of the game - even EVE which is defined by it's PvP nature will have probably the majority of its players who would go PvE only if given the choice. I freely admit to being an Empire carebear who hates being involved in PvP, and in the past when my corp has been decced I have sat in station training skills while I play an alt or do a trial account or something until the deccer gets bored and goes away. My enjoyment of EVE comes from character development and testing my ships & set up against PvE opponents. I play to relax and don't want to go through the stress and adrenalin of PvP (which I suck at anyway and always lose - and have zero desire to actually learn to get better at).

Someone above (I forget who, sorry) posted an idea about having the aggressor set goals for victory, and if they failed to achieve them they would lose the war and be unable to dec the same corp again until they had spent as much time in peace as they had been at war - the example given was 1 bil isk value of ships destroyed. I think that's a great idea and would definitely make random war decs less likely to happen, especially if the loser had to pay reparations to the winner - that's what happens in real world wars isn't it?

Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.14 13:01:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Sunwillow Auryn

Long term MMORPGers see this pattern in almost every game produced - EVE is actually quite unusual in managing to maintin its PvP credentials as long as it has. Examples:



Thats why EVE will remain a niche game. But for those people in that niche EVE is the best mmo out there. If you hate that niche there is a ton of other games out there that offers a singleplayer like PVE experience.

If you make a PVE server for EVE it will be a massive disaster even for the PVE minded people. As nearly all purpose in the game will disappear and you are left with agent missions.

I dont really understand why PVE mmos are so popular as any singleplayer rpg will offer a better experience. Mobs in mmo's have no AI and there is no real story.

But hopefully the EVE devs will continue to make their own game and market it towards the niche of pvp'ers so the minority at least has one mmo to have fun in.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.14 13:41:00 - [60]
 

Edited by: Sariyah on 14/05/2008 13:41:50
Originally by: Esmenet
hopefully the EVE devs will continue to make their own game and market it towards the niche of pvp'ers so the minority at least has one mmo to have fun in.


QFFT

And no Ankh you're wrong, it's the other way around, PvPers can do without the PvEers, but it's one aspect of the game you can't possibly know much about except reading forums / hearing stuff from strangers. In my experience PvPers are more experienced in the game overally, many have PvE alts (miners, manufacturers, they can run missions etc). You'd be surprised how many 0.0 alliances have strong industrial backbones using alts / alt corps that build a lot of stuff. But the PvEers would quickly lose their purpose in the game as stated above, market would really crash. Why train for months to build some ship(s) when you can hardly sell them? Currently in Eve PvE there's no real way to lose a ship unless you crash (even then you emergency warp out quite fast). I've been running missions on my alt char in empire recently with an unstable PC, that is I crashed 1-2 times every evening in missions still in weeks I didn't lose a single ship.

Eve PvEers are just there to support the PvP. If you run missions, you'll use the LP to get items and sell them, quite a lot of those go to PvPers. Also you reprocess loot, salvage, to be able to sell it and those turn into ships and rigs, again, used mostly by PvPers. If you run complexes - same. Who in their right mind would use Gistii MWDs for PvE use, and why? To travel? :) Also the faction nos/neutralizers/scramblers/webs/ammo/special implants are used, bought and lost on a daily basis, while PvEers fit a faction ship to do missions, and most of them don't even use faction ammo as it's hardly worth its price (maybe the ones using Marauders use it as they use less ammo). I was also hanging around the "lvl4" channel and to my surprise the most popular ship for lvl4 missions seems to be simple t2 fitted Domi. Not very quick to kill, certainly good enough, also can tank pretty much all full spawns. I was a minority there with my Raven. :)

PvPers play PvE too to support their PvP losses
PvEers play only PvE to... dunno... make billions. Most of it from selling the loot to PvPers in form of faction / deadspace modules and ships. It's a perfectly good thing to do if someone enjoys it, but it's not a self-sustainable playstyle in terms of fun on it's own.

I imagine on a PvE server highsec would be totally empty since you get 0.0 without moving a finger, jump into your ship and afk autopilot to wherever you like. Ah well, we have a test server for that.
No, the existence of PvE (in EVE!) is just to support PvP and to provide short term entertainment for noobs or people that hardly play anymore; just log on occasionally to do a mission and then log off for the week. Or, umm, chat.

As it is now, no you cannot have the whole universe for free. I know it's so unfair but that's how it is. YARRRR!!


Pages: 1 [2] 3

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only