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Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.19 15:43:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: Sariyah
Osprey


Osprey should be running 3 Electron Blasters and a HAML for 238 DPS.

Enyo does not fit the 2 MFS, 4 Neutrons, and a RL. It runs out of CPU for a warp scrambler[even a best named]. You have to drop down to Ions. Though it still hits 288. That is 21%. For the highest damage frigate vs one of the lowest damage cruisers.

Quote:

While I don't know anything about game theory (and that it has absolutely nothing to do with this topic or eve in general) I think you fail to see that the weights of the payoffs are not defined in Eve. You can use isk, or k:d ratio but I never, NEVER calculate those before deciding to engage.


Yes you do. you simply do not sit down and do the math each time. You estimate what you can win and what you can lose. I am saying you are doing this sub-optimally if you claim to ignore tacklers and other smaller ships instead of dealing with them properly.

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Since you have managed to convince me that we're not playing Eve but pulling numbers off EFT I tried it and got a Deimos with 45k tanked ehp and a brutix with 24k. That's roughly half.


Well, i am looking at a Zealot to a Harbinger and the Zealot is running 45k EHP, the Harb is running 41k EHP and is just as fast with more DPS[and more cap, and it actually fits without running out of cpu]. You are not required to fit zero mods relating to hit points if you are shooting for a target speed and agility. That being said, a brutix[not being tier 2] probably won't quite top the Deimos.

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Ok, let's try this again: It's there. Fit it for tank and it's less speed more hp and/or firepower.


Yes, and i "can" also fit civilian shield boosters on my Armageddon, and you are "free" to jump off the empire state building. Just because the fitting is physically possible does not mean that the fitting is reasonable.

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You can't compare two things while changing the rules/environment the test is performed in. A 1kg stone falling on your head on Earth hurts you more than a 2kg one on Moon. It's not the stone, it's the different environment. Compare both stones either here or there. Any simpler now?


But i am not comparing them in a different environment. I am comparing them in the same environment. In the current environment, why would you ever want to tank a frigate?

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Buying a Smart and expecting it to perform like an Audi r8 is not realistic.


1. Eve is an internet spaceship game. Spaceship Game. Eve is not an internet life simulator. That means that you have to to take into account things like risk and reward and utility when you design the game. And not things like realism.

2. No one expects t1 frigates to perform like HACs. No one expects t1 frigates to perform like cruisers. No one expects cruisers to perform like HACs. The problem comes in when people expect HACs to perform like frigates as well as HACs. Just as i should not expect a smart car to behave like an R8, i should not expect an R8 to get the gas mileage of the Smart car.

In this case its "just as i would not expect a t1 frigate to perform like a HAC i do not expect a HAC to perform like a frigate"

Quote:

Ahha, so you're starting to get it now. :)


Answer the question. Why is this(that its O.K. for a cruiser to be a frigate but not for a frigate to be a cruiser) so?

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Light tacklers, yep, a couple will help a great deal.

Unneeded.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.19 18:31:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Osprey should be running 3 Electron Blasters and a HAML for 238 DPS.

Sais who? I am comparing different fits like speed fit Osprey (so ranged) with max dps Enyo. Just like you compare speed cruisers to different fit other ships.
Originally by: Goumindong
Enyo does not fit the 2 MFS, 4 Neutrons, and a RL. It runs out of CPU for a warp scrambler[even a best named]. You have to drop down to Ions. Though it still hits 288. That is 21%. For the highest damage frigate vs one of the lowest damage cruisers.

Use a co proc and some low cpu usage module. Maybe a nano, overdrive or something. 50+ % I say.
Originally by: Goumindong
Yes you do. you simply do not sit down and do the math each time. You estimate what you can win and what you can lose. I am saying you are doing this sub-optimally if you claim to ignore tacklers and other smaller ships instead of dealing with them properly.

I don't ignore tacklers. I just don't run away from 1 big BS. Even if it may be able to hurt me. I am not doing it sub optimally. You are with missing out all the juicy targets.
Originally by: Goumindong
Well, i am looking at a Zealot to a Harbinger and the Zealot is running 45k EHP, the Harb is running 41k EHP and is just as fast with more DPS[and more cap, and it actually fits without running out of cpu]. You are not required to fit zero mods relating to hit points if you are shooting for a target speed and agility. That being said, a brutix[not being tier 2] probably won't quite top the Deimos.

Your extreme example works out fine for you, cheers. Mine works out for me.
Originally by: Goumindong
Yes, and i "can" also fit civilian shield boosters on my Armageddon, and you are "free" to jump off the empire state building. Just because the fitting is physically possible does not mean that the fitting is reasonable.

You said it's not possible to fit so you have less speed and more hp. Go to EFT and see it is if you don't believe me. I wasn't talking of civilian mods but normal t2 fitting for the ship that size. Strawman argument? Laughing
Originally by: Goumindong
But i am not comparing them in a different environment. I am comparing them in the same environment. In the current environment, why would you ever want to tank a frigate?

Believe it or not I do fit frigs for other than speed sometimes. Not optimal, tho, since I'm bad at tackling. But I'm not bragging with it, you are the one insisting on tanking frigs Shocked
Originally by: Goumindong
That means that you have to to take into account things like risk and reward and utility when you design the game.

Cheap ship = low risk. ==> low rewards.
Originally by: Goumindong
The problem comes in when people expect HACs to perform like frigates as well as HACs [...] Just as i should not expect a smart car to behave like an R8, i should not expect an R8 to get the gas mileage of the Smart car.

Noone expects hacs to perform like frigates. If I would I would cry loud on forums to boost cruisers agility and speed so they can be better in these, too. They can't.
Originally by: Goumindong
i do not expect a HAC to perform like a frigate

Good as that wouldn't be reasonable.
Originally by: Goumindong
Why is this(that its O.K. for a cruiser to be a frigate but not for a frigate to be a cruiser) so?

Cruisers are not frigs and frigs are not cruisers but with specialized fit and implants you can get the overlap, somewhat. And it's ok, I just used that argument to show you there's different overlaps not just yours. And it's perfectly fine. I don't want only 1 option if I want speed: frig. I'm guilty of liking variety.
Originally by: Goumindong
Unneeded.

I'll prove you wrong. My gang just let go of a 12k m/s vaga as we all do less. I don't have a billion for full implants and faction fit. A good tackler frig would've got it long enough so we can put another point and web and kill it. We simply didn't have a small ship to do so. Keeping it in range just so we can lock him would have done it. 3 seconds.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.19 18:49:00 - [183]
 

Originally by: Sariyah

I'll prove you wrong. My gang just let go of a 12k m/s vaga as we all do less. I don't have a billion for full implants and faction fit. A good tackler frig would've got it long enough so we can put another point and web and kill it. We simply didn't have a small ship to do so. Keeping it in range just so we can lock him would have done it. 3 seconds.


Your nano gang you mean?

Also, if it had 1 web on it before it hit its mwd it would be going 1.2km/s. Easily slower than your nano-cruisers. If it had 1 web on it after it hit its mwd another web would not have mattered because its inertia would have carried it the same distance until it hit 1.2km/s... where it would not be faster than your nano-cruisers. So if it got webbed by 1 web and still got out, a second web would not have mattered since you were still faster and roughly as agile as the target.

Quote:

Sais who? I am comparing different fits like speed fit Osprey (so ranged) with max dps Enyo. Just like you compare speed cruisers to different fit other ships.


Because there is no loss in the other fitting in terms of what we are quantifying. If your requirement was range then we would have had to put rails on the enyo. By using blasters i was figuring your requirement was not range

Quote:

Use a co proc and some low cpu usage module. Maybe a nano, overdrive or something. 50+ % I say.


Not enough CPU gained. You would need 2 Co-pro and that means you are out of slots

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I don't ignore tacklers. I just don't run away from 1 big BS. Even if it may be able to hurt me. I am not doing it sub optimally. You are with missing out all the juicy targets.


If you are not keeping at range and killing the tacklers first you are doing it sub-optimally yes.


Quote:

You said it's not possible to fit so you have less speed and more hp. Go to EFT and see it is if you don't believe me. I wasn't talking of civilian mods but normal t2 fitting for the ship that size. Strawman argument?


Yes, your argument is a strawman, thank you for beating me to the punch and declaring it so. Physically possible is very different something that is reasonable to fit. I want to increase the number of reasonable fits. Remember the pictures? All off the lines are "possible" but only the ones without overlap are reasonable.

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Cheap ship = low risk. ==> low rewards.


The correlation between risk and reward has never been 1 to 1. This is what i was saying and this is what you are ignoring.

Quote:

Noone expects hacs to perform like frigates. If I would I would cry loud on forums to boost cruisers agility and speed so they can be better in these, too. They can't.


They currently are with the help of speed modules

Quote:

Cruisers are not frigs and frigs are not cruisers but with specialized fit and implants you can get the overlap, somewhat.


The level of overlap is not anywhere near O.K.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.19 19:46:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Also, if it had 1 web on it before it hit its mwd it would be going 1.2km/s. Easily slower than your nano-cruisers. [...]

Yep, conclusion have a frig with you they can be good :) They lock fast so they can have that extra edge with the web. Since he was running away not for the gate. 2nd web would help in case he reconsiders and goes for gate with 1200 altho yea wouldnt matter because of his inertia sicne we were 5.
Originally by: Goumindong
Because there is no loss in the other fitting in terms of what we are quantifying. If your requirement was range then we would have had to put rails on the enyo. By using blasters i was figuring your requirement was not range

It was simple dps comparison while ignoring other attributes (wrong way to do it). You don't fit blasters on a nano ship.
Originally by: Goumindong
Not enough CPU gained. You would need 2 Co-pro and that means you are out of slots

cpu 2xmfs / named mwd named disruptor / 4xneut 1xarbalest
1 free low slot for something w/o cpu use. like overdrive,nano,inertia stab or passive resist plate that doesnt use cpu
Originally by: Goumindong
If you are not keeping at range and killing the tacklers first you are doing it sub-optimally yes.

Again, if I go out of range while killing tacklers he will run away. In a 1 bs 3-4 frig gang the bs is the main target. I go in to kill him not the frigs (while obviously I want them but I want to keep the bs there while I do so).
Originally by: Goumindong
Yes, your argument is a strawman, thank you for beating me to the punch and declaring it so.

Shocked read again what you wrote about civilian modules and reconsider.
Originally by: Goumindong
The correlation between risk and reward has never been 1 to 1. This is what i was saying and this is what you are ignoring.

I'm not ignoring anything. I don't know the exact ratio but obviously with a frig you can kill small stuff, with bigger ships you can kill bigger stuff.
Originally by: Goumindong
They currently are with the help of speed modules

Fit frigs with speed modules for a fair comparison and see that they aren't.
Originally by: Goumindong
The level of overlap is not anywhere near O.K.

It is just fine and it makes the game more interesting and complicated.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.19 20:02:00 - [185]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 19/05/2008 20:02:20
Originally by: Sariyah
read again what you wrote about civilian modules and reconsider.


The only difference was the severity of the deficiency[hyperbole, not strawman]. You don't put shield boosters of any kind on geddons.

Quote:

Yep, conclusion have a frig with you they can be good :) They lock fast so they can have that extra edge with the web. Since he was running away not for the gate. 2nd web would help in case he reconsiders and goes for gate with 1200 altho yea wouldnt matter because of his inertia sicne we were 5.


Nope, it makes no difference. He was running away from the gate and such would be decelerating to a point when he hit 1.2km/s. An extra web would not have slowed him any faster. If you did not catch him by the time he hit 1.2km/s then you did not catch him and he would have out-flown the second web. The only time multiple webs matter is when the webbing ship is not faster than the now webbed ship[or much less agile)

Quote:

It was simple dps comparison while ignoring other attributes (wrong way to do it). You don't fit blasters on a nano ship.


1. Why not?

2. Because you don't fit blasters period.

3. Why not?

4. Because you need a tank to justify getting into web range when it will take you 10 times longer or more to escape. This makes blasters useless when nano'd. Larger ships with more range and DPS when nano'd going faster with more tank make blasters useless when tanked.

5. Exception: In a gang environment when you are unable to fit rails, blasters can be valuable with nano-mods used to keep re-engagement time low. However you are vastly inferior to longer ranged ships and if things go wrong you will die.

Quote:

cpu 2xmfs / named mwd named disruptor / 4xneut 1xarbalest
1 free low slot for something w/o cpu use. like overdrive,nano,inertia stab or passive resist plate that doesnt use cpu


Yea, 2 mfs/4 neut II/t2 rocket launcher is what i fit to get 288 dps.

Quote:

I'm not ignoring anything. I don't know the exact ratio but obviously with a frig you can kill small stuff, with bigger ships you can kill bigger stuff.


The ratio is not constant. It never has been, it never will be

Quote:

Fit frigs with speed modules for a fair comparison and see that they aren't.


Its only a fair comparison if i can take frigs and fit damage mods on them to do tier 3 cruiser DPS/EHP(when those ships are not fitting damage mods). You simply cannot justify one overlap "just because" without justifying any other overlap.

Quote:
It is just fine and it makes the game more interesting and complicated.


How does "fewer viable fits" make the game more interesting and complicated?

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.19 23:02:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
The only difference was the severity of the deficiency[hyperbole, not strawman]. You don't put shield boosters of any kind on geddons.

So fitting t2 medium modules on a hac is comparable to fit civilian modules on a geddon. Or fit t2 small modules on a frig. No deficiency, you created one. Very constructive.
Originally by: Goumindong
Nope, it makes no difference. He was running away from the gate and such would be decelerating to a point when he hit 1.2km/s. An extra web would not have slowed him any faster. If you did not catch him by the time he hit 1.2km/s then you did not catch him and he would have out-flown the second web. The only time multiple webs matter is when the webbing ship is not faster than the now webbed ship[or much less agile)

Ok, I understand now what's the problem. I meant a frig can slow him down just till we can get him. I was saying this, because going along with your previous ideas, the frig will be dead seconds after he is locked by the cruiser. But he can lock fast, web, hold till we lock and web/scramble. Then he either disengages or dies or does whatever he can / see fit. What I am saying is that frigs are required to tackle in a gang if we are looking at a general picture and not taking 1 specific case. A frig means more killed targets on the long run on a gatecamp for example. We just never sacrifice someone for remote sensor booster, we use someone that can't come in anything bigger usually (lack of isk, lack of sp, lack of ship available). Of course a pimped sabre does the job too, but that's not always available either :)
Originally by: Goumindong
Quote:
You don't fit blasters on a nano ship.

1. Why not?
2. Because you don't fit blasters period.


So not true. You do fit blasters. In this moment I have about 8-10 combat ships fitted. I have tackler, combat frig, speed cruiser, blaster/tanked cruiser, sniper BS and a couple of (differently fitted) blasterBSes. I like blasters. ;) And use them.
But on a nano ship they are not good since you are way too vulnerable to go to blank point range. You use the extra survivability, the chance to disengage. And yes I know you're gasping for air to quote me immediately, and yes nano ships have more chances to disengage of course, that means chance not certainty. A blaster ship is a suicide ship by nature. But sometimes you still win! :) There is no different way to fit a blaster ship but either GOOD tank (electrons, bleah; but maybe good for bait) or GOOD gank. And yes you sometimes win and it's a god damn good feeling :) And if you die just have a laugh and get another ship. When I board a blaster ship I accept whatever it may come. Means I'm not too upset if I die. It's a special kind of ship. Not the nano kind :)
Originally by: Goumindong
5. Exception: In a gang environment [...] blasters can be valuable with nano-mods

Never. Nano + blasters sound like g** priests. Just doesn't fit. And no offense to anyone :)
Originally by: Goumindong
The ratio is not constant. It never has been, it never will be

Again too much too vague theory, not sure what you mean. I am talking generally not in one or another specific situation.
Originally by: Goumindong
Its only a fair comparison if i can take frigs and fit damage mods on them to do tier 3 cruiser DPS/EHP(when those ships are not fitting damage mods). You simply cannot justify one overlap "just because" without justifying any other overlap.

Accept that overally cruisers > frigs, their class justifies it. Frigs can only be "better" for special tasks, special fits. And that ensures that they're still viable and used sometimes even by experienced players.
Originally by: Goumindong
How does "fewer viable fits" make the game more interesting and complicated?

You don't promote more. You promote only frigs being good speed ships. They already are. But if you nerf cruisers agility and speed they won't be viable anymore.

Primnproper
Posted - 2008.05.20 13:59:00 - [187]
 

1) I like nano's and I like flying nano's, its fun, its danagerous (countrary to popular belife its very easy to die wheen your flying a nano ship), its varied and its not just warp in press f1 => f8 wait for you or enemy to die.

2) Countering nano's is a simple case of having lots of 6k plus inties with webs and a few miny recons, but wait that would be adapting the problem instead of crying for game changes to suit your play style.

3) If you really want to bring in another counter then surely the web bubble (dictor launched or static) is the perfect answer.....

4) Please for the love of god, don't destroy the only way small gang pvp can happen in 0.0.

Jakke Logan
Caldari
F Off And Die
Posted - 2008.05.20 16:49:00 - [188]
 

You know, making Assault frigates a specialist anti-nano ship (by giving it some crazy tracking bonuses and/or missile velocity explosion velocity bonuses) might be a nice role for a ship that currently has no role...

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.20 21:34:00 - [189]
 

No clue how to fix AFs. They are good for pve tho sometimes. I use one for occasional ratting. It's OK in relatively hostile space where I need the agility to warp out real quickly.
PvP role? Would be nice. They have none.

Octavinus Augustus
Amarr
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.21 07:00:00 - [190]
 

Edited by: Octavinus Augustus on 21/05/2008 07:01:08
I know I'm not a candidate and that voting is over, but I'll do a short post regardless on my views.

First a few basic beliefs on my part:

1) Nanogangs are uncounterable (unless by nano gangs) and at current the only effective way to ensure survivability in hostile space. However they're overpowered in the sense that they're safe. As has been pointed out above, if the engagement is going badly, you simply disengage.

2) You cant attack someones sovereignty without a blob of your own. There is no room for roaming gangs in sov warfare.

The effect is that some people will gang up in a conventional gang and go looking for a fun fight, knowing they'll eventually lose. Others, who are overly concerned with their killboard efficiency, will use nanos exclusively.

The answer for me lies in nerfing the nano and at the same time give conventional gangs a place in sovereignty warfare.

On the last bit (and totally outside the scope of this thread) I posted some suggestions on "Features and ideas" a while ago - but that didnt spark much of a debate. You are free to use any of these suggestions you see fit - even without paying royaltiesVery Happy.

I also quite like the idea (wether by Guomindong or not) about the moon haulers.


PS. At work right now, so didn't have time to read the whole thread. Sorry if these points have been covered already.


Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.21 10:01:00 - [191]
 

Edited by: Sariyah on 21/05/2008 10:04:47
Edited by: Sariyah on 21/05/2008 10:02:12
Originally by: Octavinus Augustus
At work right now, so didn't have time to read the whole thread.

I was sure of this after reading 1).
Try fit webs and nanos and have tacklers; don't try to simply shoot them with your BS while they orbit you with mwd on Very Happy
Also how nanos relate to sovereignty? You surely won't occupy hostile space using nano ships. They are there so people can have some real fun instead of spending hours and hours sitting at enemy (or friendly) POSes. Nano gangs are a natural and good balance to pos warfare.
Originally by: Octavinus Augustus
who are overly concerned with their killboard efficiency, will use nanos exclusively.

It's a real sick, unrealistic and untrue idea that nanos don't die. I know I could just start my own little "nerf" campaign saying tanked ships never die or they do too late, since they got an incredible buff and weapon dmg wasn't modified at all. The difference is some selfishly make it a goal in life to find something they personally hate and start a crusade on forums to get it nerfed. Too upset about the bc you lost to a couple of vagas?
I wonder if ever CCP will nerf EVERYTHING and then we won't have an interesting game to play anymore. Too many mmos destroy their own games in a few years by nerfing or buffing too much in an attempt to "balance" things. While there is never a perfect balance and trying to reach it too much will make the game dull. Let nanos be and let 3 plate trimarked ships be. There are not 1 or 2 but many extremities in Eve and none are invincible as history shown so far.
Edit: Your key ideas seem very, very familiar btw Rolling Eyes


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