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Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.17 20:55:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
it is quite easy to force a tanked BS gang to engage.

That is quite a statement. I would like to know how. Please do explain.
Originally by: Goumindong
Are you stupid?

No, you called me stupid. A personal insult is a personal insult. Forgive me for not quoting to the letter. Are your insults still relevant to this topic btw?
Originally by: Goumindong
There needs to be not guessing and no 5 pages if you follow along.

You asking brief few word questions that all have 1 possible answer and lead to your Eve is misleading and I'm not letting myself be dragged into manipulation. You can certainly appreciate that?
Originally by: Goumindong
This is true only if you are not paying attention. Why are you not paying attention when flying your ship? And no, its not quickly 1000%. It takes 23 seconds for that ship to hit 75% of its speed.

Please do explain how paying attention can negate the law of physics that are related to inertia. Also a BS can align and reach 100 m/s and then activate MWD and I don't think it is 23 seconds, I really doubt it's that long. I'd say probably half or less. I do believe that's what EFT is showing to you but in real world combat it's somehow not true based on my experience. I know that your EFT numbers seem accurate, I do, and I apologize for I can only speak from experience since I did not chose to master EFT combat as of yet. Note I said 1000+ not %!
Originally by: Goumindong
i know pretty well what it will change. But if you are going to figure it out you are going to have to attempt to follow along. I am asking pointed questions because when you are able to answer them you will have made the connection required to answer it.

Mind-games again. Thanks, I rather see you explaining how do neuts, webs and maneuvering not help in catching a speed fit ship.
Originally by: Goumindong
So lets go over the question and the answer again. What do these things have in common? They are both things you use to achieve goals. What does that have to do with winning? Winning is achieved by achieving goals.
When you understand that you will know that flying skillfully and fitting skillfully only differentiate in the time you have to make a decision.

Great example of how philosophy can explain anything, but it has nothing to do with the subject. It is not generic good sounding phrases that kill the enemy, ships flown by pilots do. You know, those small insignificant tools of war that are often considered irrelevant details on a greater scale.
Originally by: Goumindong
I never mentioned a played trimarked crow.

Man, a crow should never be hit by those missiles unless it's fitted totally wrong. Bad example.
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Sariyah
Haha, not quality but oppsite in regard to speed. You really expect tank fit frig to go faster than speed fit cruiser?

"Haha, not quality but opposite in regard to speed. You really expect a tank fit frig to go faster than a speed fit battleship?"
Why should battleships be slower than frigates but not cruisers/hacs?

I don't understand why have you added my quote, modified. I will still try to answer the question.
I don't expect any frig to be slower than a BS. It's 2 classes difference, too much mass/size difference. A speed fit BS can still be faster than a tanked cruiser though, and with I only support what I have been saying all along. With that said, battleships as the biggest non-capital ships are suitable more like for fleet battles rather than skirmish warfare.
Originally by: Goumindong
When a cruiser is not fit for DPS it still does more DPS than a DPS fit frigate. When a frigate is fit for hit points it does not have more EHP than a cruiser not fit for tank. Why should a cruiser fit for speed have more speed than a frigate that is not when the frigate cannot get more DPS or EHP than the cruiser?

1 class higher ==> stronger. Speed is exception, frigs have advantage of base speed/mass/agility, makes sense.. smaller.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.17 21:29:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Sariyah

That is quite a statement. I would like to know how. Please do explain.


A BS takes at least 10 seconds to warp and all ships will lock it before that happens. This allows them to point the ship and its low agility means that you can web it.

It can be possible for the ship to burn back through a gate. In which case you can get on the other side and do the same.

Alternately you bump the battleship off the gate/station, then web and scram it and engage.

Quote:

No, you called me stupid. A personal insult is a personal insult. Forgive me for not quoting to the letter. Are your insults still relevant to this topic btw?




I never said what you are claiming that I said and i have not ever asked the question you have put into my mouth.

Quote:

You asking brief few word questions that all have 1 possible answer and lead to your Eve is misleading and I'm not letting myself be dragged into manipulation. You can certainly appreciate that?


No I cannot. Since i will answer your questions and then explain why the point is wrong it is only courtesy that you answer mine.
Quote:

Please do explain how paying attention can negate the law of physics that are related to inertia. Also a BS can align and reach 100 m/s and then activate MWD and I don't think it is 23 seconds, I really doubt it's that long. I'd say probably half or less. I do believe that's what EFT is showing to you but in real world combat it's somehow not true based on my experience. I know that your EFT numbers seem accurate, I do, and I apologize for I can only speak from experience since I did not chose to master EFT combat as of yet. Note I said 1000+ not %!


The fastest BS runs 1450m/s. It aligns in 23 seconds which is 3/4th of its maximum velocity without plates and with a t2 mwd. That is 23 seconds to 1050m/s for a phoon. Don't believe me? Get on Sisi and test it.

Quote:

Mind-games again. Thanks, I rather see you explaining how do neuts, webs and maneuvering not help in catching a speed fit ship.




Logic is a mind game, and Eve is a game of logic. Neuts, webs, and maneuvering do help in catching speed fit ships. That does not mean they help well enough.

Quote:

Great example of how philosophy can explain anything, but it has nothing to do with the subject. It is not generic good sounding phrases that kill the enemy, ships flown by pilots do. You know, those small insignificant tools of war that are often considered irrelevant details on a greater scale.


Not in this case when you deny the entire idea of being able to do better by making good choices.
Quote:

Man, a crow should never be hit by those missiles unless it's fitted totally wrong. Bad example.


I didn't say it would. I said its sig was high enough. Don't you know how missiles work?(and actually its entirely possible if the crow gets webbed]

Quote:
I don't understand why have you added my quote, modified. I will still try to answer the question.
I don't expect any frig to be slower than a BS. It's 2 classes difference, too much mass/size difference. A speed fit BS can still be faster than a tanked cruiser though, and with I only support what I have been saying all along. With that said, battleships as the biggest non-capital ships are suitable more like for fleet battles rather than skirmish warfare.


Because if there is no reason a cruiser should not be faster than a frigate then there is no reason a battleship should not be faster than a frigate. Unless you want to start making 400-700 DPS frigates that is. The quote is a rhetorical technique used shows you why your logic was faulty by applying it to another clearly faulty scenario

Quote:

1 class higher ==> stronger. Speed is exception, frigs have advantage of base speed/mass/agility, makes sense.. smaller.


Why is speed the exception? Because?

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.17 22:13:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
A BS takes at least 10 seconds to warp and all ships will lock it before that happens.

Omg, tell me what a BS is doing at a gate 10km from the enemies if he doesn't want to engage Shocked
Originally by: Goumindong
I never said what you are claiming that I said

I only quoted you. Lazy to check now if you edited your message to remove it.
Originally by: Goumindong
No I cannot. Since i will answer your questions and then explain why the point is wrong it is only courtesy that you answer mine.

Manipulative questions should not be part of this discussion. I'm not the one you need to mind control. I do answer honest questions.
Originally by: Goumindong
The fastest BS runs 1450m/s. It aligns in 23 seconds which is 3/4th of its maximum velocity without plates and with a t2 mwd. That is 23 seconds to 1050m/s for a phoon. Don't believe me? Get on Sisi and test it.

I can't say anything new here only that in eve online is different than eft online. 'Real' (eve) world experience. Get to 100 m/s then activate mwd and see how much it takes to 800-1000 m/s. A cruiser from 100 to 1000-1500. Not a lot.
Originally by: Goumindong
Logic is a mind game, and Eve is a game of logic. Neuts, webs, and maneuvering do help in catching speed fit ships. That does not mean they help well enough.

Ah so starting to agree. Good. They are good enough, by design they break speed ships. What more you want...
Originally by: Goumindong
Not in this case when you deny the entire idea of being able to do better by making good choices.

Don't derail the discussion. I was basically saying a is good and you answered b is bad. If you want to derail the discussion do it more subtle.
Originally by: Goumindong
I didn't say it would. I said its sig was high enough. Don't you know how missiles work?(and actually its entirely possible if the crow gets webbed]

Crow killed by BS. Aha. Did you pull that from EFT? I'm sure it happens but soo rarely it's not worth considering. I seen noobships kill a domi it doesn't mean you can give ti as general example.
Originally by: Goumindong
Because if there is no reason a cruiser should not be faster than a frigate then there is no reason a battleship should not be faster than a frigate. Unless you want to start making 400-700 DPS frigates that is. The quote is a rhetorical technique used shows you why your logic was faulty by applying it to another clearly faulty scenario

Luckily frigs are not slower than either cruisers or BSs. Cruisers can faster be if you nerf the frig with wrong fit and boost the cruiser's speed therefore offseting for the base difference. Same as BS can be fit to be faster than speed nerfed cruiser. Difference between frigs and BSes is too big to offset with modules. All normal and perfectly logical.
Originally by: Goumindong
Why is speed the exception? Because?

As I already said, but will repeat myself just for you:
Originally by: Sariyah
frigs have advantage of base speed/mass/agility, makes sense.. smaller.


Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.18 05:30:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Sariyah

Omg, tell me what a BS is doing at a gate 10km from the enemies if he doesn't want to engage



Running away unsuccessfully

Quote:

I only quoted you. Lazy to check now if you edited your message to remove it.

You're right. I did say it once, made a mistake. Its easy to get frustrated when is being insulted so often for no reason.

Quote:

Manipulative questions should not be part of this discussion. I'm not the one you need to mind control. I do answer honest questions.


They are honest questions. You do not get to define an honest question as "a question which I do not like the answer to"

Quote:

I can't say anything new here only that in eve online is different than eft online. 'Real' (eve) world experience. Get to 100 m/s then activate mwd and see how much it takes to 800-1000 m/s. A cruiser from 100 to 1000-1500. Not a lot.


The time going between 100 -> 1000 and 0 -> 1000 is very similar. You say its not true, but you wont even get onto Sisi to test it?

Quote:

Ah so starting to agree. Good. They are good enough, by design they break speed ships. What more you want...



Something that works to stop speed ships from disengaging when they want.

Quote:

Don't derail the discussion. I was basically saying a is good and you answered b is bad. If you want to derail the discussion do it more subtle.


This is simply not true. You said there was no optimal play in eve. You fundamentally rejected the premise that we are playing a game.

Quote:

Crow killed by BS. Aha. Did you pull that from EFT? I'm sure it happens but soo rarely it's not worth considering. I seen noobships kill a domi it doesn't mean you can give ti as general example.


I am not mentioning crow kills by battleships. I am mentioning sig radius

Quote:

Luckily frigs are not slower than either cruisers or BSs. Cruisers can faster be if you nerf the frig with wrong fit and boost the cruiser's speed therefore offseting for the base difference. Same as BS can be fit to be faster than speed nerfed cruiser. Difference between frigs and BSes is too big to offset with modules. All normal and perfectly logical.


A frigate with a frigate plate on is not "nerfed". Would you have preferred i used something like a punisher?[less DPS, 700m/s slower BEFORE a plate]

Quote:

As I already said, but will repeat myself just for you:


that is not a reason. Why do smaller things do less DPS and have less EHP than larger ships? Because of sig radius?

No, there are either clear size divisions or there are not clear size divisions. And if there are not clear size divisions then there is no reason why one class advantage can be entirely negated by another, but another class advantage cannot.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.18 10:42:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Running away unsuccessfully

Bad fc / scouts maybe, a bad reason to die indeed. I am not sure if I ever was attacked when I didn't want it. I'm sure it happened, but it's probably like 1% of cases, if that, regardless of my ship.
Originally by: Goumindong
They are honest questions.

Your questions were idiotic questions, the kind of questions you ask a 4 year old. Basically you were trying to ask direct short questions with 1 word answers that by some faulty logic would lead to your truth. What I mean is, instead of trying this kind of logic just explain where you want to go in your own words.
Originally by: Goumindong
The time going between 100 -> 1000 and 0 -> 1000 is very similar. You say its not true

What I was actually saying is that while in 1v1 it's easier to dodge a ship 1v1 is never the case, and in a, say, few vs few already it happens often. My small ships have been neutralized, and I used neuts on others. Not hard when t2 disruptor is 24km and heavy neut is 25km. In best case scenario you have faction disruptor where you have a couple of kms in which you need to navigate, and being locked by say 3-5 ships means if one or 2 of them comes only 2km closer they can already activate it. And what if they have a good neut and you have t2 disruptor, ehm... good faction/faction is also basically same range. When you notice it you can gtfo unless you're tackled, if you're tackled, you can pray that the ecm ship you brought saves your bottom (if you brought one). If even a big slow ship is mwding in one direction your orbit will not be a circle but oval. You either make a tighter orbit to keep warp disruptor on, or get out if you think it's dangerous. Or try to navigate manually but it won't be much better for keeping a fixed distance because of inertia and you'll keep sliding through or in all the time. Or you start tackling a fat target like a BS (don't we all like to kill those) and a cruiser observes your trajectory and intercepts it. You use your 'brakes' but you slide thru like 10-20km towards him. That's bad. :)
Originally by: Goumindong
Something that works to stop speed ships from disengaging when they want.

Ships will never be equal in align time. Live with it.
Originally by: Goumindong
This is simply not true. You said there was no optimal play in eve. You fundamentally rejected the premise that we are playing a game.

No, to my inertia argument you said optimal play is not to play like an idiot. That was the original context. Technical details. No way to play perfectly, you pay attention to your opponent and try to adjust all the time.
Originally by: Goumindong
I am not mentioning crow kills by battleships. I am mentioning sig radius

By crow hit by cruise missile I was thinking of, say, raven killing crow. In which case sig radius should not even come into picture. Shooting stationary afk crows is not fair play, also doesn't happen often does it :)
Originally by: Goumindong
A frigate with a frigate plate on is not "nerfed". Would you have preferred i used something like a punisher?[less DPS, 700m/s slower BEFORE a plate]

I meant speed nerfed, tank optimized. Punisher slower than what? Compare it, say, to an arbitrator. There is a variety of frigs/cruisers, some good for one thing, others good for something else.
Originally by: Goumindong
that is not a reason. Why do smaller things do less DPS and have less EHP than larger ships? Because of sig radius?

Fit a medium gun to a frig. Can't even carry it :) too big. Ehp? Try to fit same armor amount/shield generator. Dunno, fit a 2L v8 engine on a moped. I don't know, it just seems logical to me.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.18 11:24:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Sariyah

Bad fc / scouts maybe, a bad reason to die indeed. I am not sure if I ever was attacked when I didn't want it. I'm sure it happened, but it's probably like 1% of cases, if that, regardless of my ship.


Someone has to be attacked involuntarily. Otherwise no one would die.

Quote:

Your questions were idiotic questions, the kind of questions you ask a 4 year old. Basically you were trying to ask direct short questions with 1 word answers that by some faulty logic would lead to your truth. What I mean is, instead of trying this kind of logic just explain where you want to go in your own words.


I did that, and when i did you rejected the entire idea that you could make good decisions in eve. So we have to start with establishing that instead of taking it for granted.

Quote:

What I was actually saying is that while in 1v1 it's easier to dodge a ship 1v1 is never the case, and in a, say, few vs few already it happens often. My small ships have been neutralized, and I used neuts on others. Not hard when t2 disruptor is 24km and heavy neut is 25km.


It is only not difficult when the optimal play is "burn in the other direction of all the ships"

Also, overload your point.

Quote:
Or you start tackling a fat target like a BS (don't we all like to kill those) and a cruiser observes your trajectory and intercepts it. You use your 'brakes' but you slide thru like 10-20km towards him. That's bad. :)


You are shooting the wrong target. Cruisers first, battleships second.

Quote:

Ships will never be equal in align time. Live with it.


Irrelevant. Because what is important is not align time compared to align time. What is important is the time it takes to disengage.

Quote:

No, to my inertia argument you said optimal play is not to play like an idiot. That was the original context. Technical details. No way to play perfectly, you pay attention to your opponent and try to adjust all the time.


Your "inertia" argument hedged on the nano ship burning right at a battleship.

Quote:

By crow hit by cruise missile I was thinking of, say, raven killing crow. In which case sig radius should not even come into picture. Shooting stationary afk crows is not fair play, also doesn't happen often does it :)


Comments made aside are secondary and explanatory to the point. The point is that signatures are largely unimportant.

Quote:

I meant speed nerfed, tank optimized. Punisher slower than what? Compare it, say, to an arbitrator. There is a variety of frigs/cruisers, some good for one thing, others good for something else.


It doesn't matter if its tank optimized or speed optimized. You cant make a frigate tank more than a cruiser you cant make a frigate dps more than a cruiser no matter what the fit, why should you be able to make a cruiser faster than a frigate?

Also, yea, a punisher with and MWD and no speed mods and no plates is slower than a speed fit arbitrator with less tank, less EHP, and less DPS.

Quote:

Fit a medium gun to a frig. Can't even carry it :) too big. Ehp? Try to fit same armor amount/shield generator. Dunno, fit a 2L v8 engine on a moped. I don't know, it just seems logical to me.


Good, so we have gotten to the point where you recognize that a frigate is not a cruiser. Now we have to get to the point where you realize that a cruiser is not a frigate.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.18 12:06:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Someone has to be attacked involuntarily. Otherwise no one would die.

Outsmarting your enemy sometimes works, usually doesn't. I think most fights are sort of, consentual. When either both sides think they can win or they are just bored of not fighting and give it a try anyway.
Originally by: Goumindong
I did that, and when i did you rejected the entire idea that you could make good decisions in eve. So we have to start with establishing that instead of taking it for granted.

Suppose a few vs few fight. Theres a BS I obviously don;t want to leave so I tackle it, flying at say 4-5k m/s so he can;t hit me. A tackler (frig/cruiser) counters my orbit and tries to intercept me. I will probably notice it say quarter to 1/3 orbit before he reaches me and make a sudden turn. That makes my ship slow down before taking the turn and I slide thru 15km. On an orbit of 25 that means I will likely be in his web range by this time if he just continues his trajectory as well. How inertia makes me stupid? I cannot make a decision on how to counter only after I see it, and he is mid his maneuver. And there's a delay to change mine.
Originally by: Goumindong
It is only not difficult when the optimal play is "burn in the other direction of all the ships"

If I don't want to engage, I probably won't even be in the same grid with them. I don't go in, look at them and run away, there's the onboard scanner for making the decision.
Originally by: Goumindong
Also, overload your point.

For how long, if I have to kill several cruisers before getting him? Also, he overloads his neut if he needs an extra bit of range to screw me. Same thing really. You can;t consider a situation as general where I have thermo skill and he doesn't :)
Originally by: Goumindong
You are shooting the wrong target. Cruisers first, battleships second.

Who was talking about shooting? I am shooting the cruisers/frigs but it takes time to burn through their tank. I obviously don't want to let the fat target go away in the meantime... it's an extra risk pretty much anyone would take.
Originally by: Goumindong
Irrelevant. Because what is important is not align time compared to align time. What is important is the time it takes to disengage.

Align time is probably the most important factor in running away from a fight Shocked
Originally by: Goumindong
Your "inertia" argument hedged on the nano ship burning right at a battleship.

I guess that qualifies for your "slow ships must be able to kill all" ship category.
Originally by: Goumindong
Comments made aside are secondary and explanatory to the point. The point is that signatures are largely unimportant.

No idea really, never tried to get hit in a stationary ship. That stat alone doesn't keep you alive and never will.
Originally by: Goumindong
It doesn't matter if its tank optimized or speed optimized. You cant make a frigate tank more than a cruiser you cant make a frigate dps more than a cruiser no matter what the fit, why should you be able to make a cruiser faster than a frigate?

I can't if the frig pilot knows how to fit or has some corpmates to tell him/her how to do so. Frigs are supposed to be fast ships, don't try to use them for something they can't do.
Originally by: Goumindong
Also, yea, a punisher with and MWD and no speed mods and no plates is slower than a speed fit arbitrator

Of course it is. Never said it isn't. Fit some speed mods. There's a reason people doesn't fly plated crows, it's nonsense. Flying combat frigs is a rare situation and then you don't engage multiple cruisers anyway.
Originally by: Goumindong
Good, so we have gotten to the point where you recognize that a frigate is not a cruiser. Now we have to get to the point where you realize that a cruiser is not a frigate.

It isn't indeed, that's why cruisers have worse base speed and mostly, agility. You can fit a better engine but you still have inertia to fight with.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.18 13:28:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Sariyah

Outsmarting your enemy sometimes works, usually doesn't. I think most fights are sort of, consentual. When either both sides think they can win or they are just bored of not fighting and give it a try anyway.


If most fights are "sort of" consensual they are not really consensual at all.

Quote:

Suppose a few vs few fight...


How do you not see the cruiser, did you turn off your overview? In a few vs a few fight you should be locking it up to prepare to engage it.

Quote:

If I don't want to engage, I probably won't even be in the same grid with them. I don't go in, look at them and run away, there's the onboard scanner for making the decision.


And when you are? And when you make a decision to engage and then leave?

Quote:

For how long, if I have to kill several cruisers before getting him? Also, he overloads his neut if he needs an extra bit of range to screw me. Same thing really. You can;t consider a situation as general where I have thermo skill and he doesn't :)


Neuts do not overload for range. They overload for RoF. You should be able to overload your point for several minutes.

Quote:

Who was talking about shooting? I am shooting the cruisers/frigs but it takes time to burn through their tank. I obviously don't want to let the fat target go away in the meantime... it's an extra risk pretty much anyone would take.


No, that is your decision to play sub-optimally. And no, it does not take long to burn through their tank when you are primarying them. If you are flying alone why do you think you have the right to kill multiple enemy ships with so little risk.

Quote:

Align time is probably the most important factor in running away from a fight


Comparative align time is not the most important factor in running away from a fight. The most important factors are align time versus lock time and speed versus engagement range.

There are two ways to escape you fly away from the engagement range or you warp before the fight starts. Bubbles mean you do not warp before the engagement starts. So its pretty much all down to speed. And at that point its about how much damage can be done before the target leaves the area. With nano-ships either the damage needed is too high, the ability to leave is too fast, or the range at which they need to go is too small.

Quote:

I can't if the frig pilot knows how to fit or has some corpmates to tell him/her how to do so. Frigs are supposed to be fast ships, don't try to use them for something they can't do.


This is part of the problem that non-nano fit frigs have become obsolete. Saying "Don't fly them they are obsolete" does not change the fact that they should not be obsolete.

How about this "Cruisers are not supposed to be fast ships, they are supposed to be medium speed ships"

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Of course it is. Never said it isn't. Fit some speed mods. There's a reason people doesn't fly plated crows, it's nonsense. Flying combat frigs is a rare situation and then you don't engage multiple cruisers anyway.


Yes there is a reason people don't fly plated crows, and its because doing so is stupid. How do you not see the connection between speed fit cruisers and obsolete tanked frigates?

Quote:


It isn't indeed, that's why cruisers have worse base speed and mostly, agility. You can fit a better engine but you still have inertia to fight with.


So you are proposing removing inertia stabilizers and nanofibers from the game? Isn't that a little bit harsh?

There is nothing wrong with fitting a bigger engine. There is something wrong when a bigger engine means that there is only way to fit a smaller ship.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.18 14:30:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
If most fights are "sort of" consensual they are not really consensual

Yep they are. There's no need to formally agree to fight. If you attack, or sit and wait to be attacked, that's what I consider consentual. Or just dumb? By not scouting properly you allow people to attack you, you seem to be fine with that.
Originally by: Goumindong
How do you not see the cruiser, did you turn off your overview?

Has nothing to do with the overview. Based on the overview I can't decide if he's maneuvering against me since he'll likely even get some distance instead of closing up at first. 10 ships all flying in random directions on the screen, if you know what I mean.
Originally by: Goumindong
And when you are? And when you make a decision to engage and then leave?

When I do it means I'll go close thus making myself vulnerable instead of "burning away in opposite direction".
Originally by: Goumindong
Neuts do not overload for range.

Wasn't aware of that. Never tried tbh. It's not a module I'll likely overload, it's more likely the mid slots, tank, or weapons. Then probably others don't really do it either. So I indeed have an extra 3 km to navigate in. Which is good if the opponent is stationary and I have carefully established the orbit for, say, 27km. That means a set orbit of roughly 22 while doing perfect circle because of inertia.
Originally by: Goumindong
that is your decision to play sub-optimally. [...] it does not take long to burn through their tank when you are primarying them.

I don't want to sacrifice kills to be more safe. And no a few tanked cruisers don't die in 10 sec to another few that aren't gank setups.
Originally by: Goumindong
Comparative align time is not the most important factor in running away from a fight.

If I align slowly most will lock me. If I align quickly and neut a closeby frig I can possibly get away. I can't get away from a swarm of frigs, obviously.
Originally by: Goumindong
There are two ways to escape you fly away from the engagement range or you warp before the fight starts.

If I don't intend to fight I don't go to same grid or don't let the enemy come to same grid. If at some point one group choses to run, some will prolly be able to. Dictor bubbles aren't that huge. There's a few reasons I have mwd fitted for to ALL my ships. Primary, and maybe 1-2 others will die if the enemy is strong and good. The others get away anyway since you can't tackle them all and still hit a primary effectively and make sure he doesn't run.
Originally by: Goumindong
This is part of the problem that non-nano fit frigs have become obsolete. Saying "Don't fly them they are obsolete" does not change the fact that they should not be obsolete.

Also frigs should be able to snipe to 200+ km, and t1 cruisers tank like a BS, since there's no reason why not to, right? Flawed logic. Use ships for what they are good to do. They aren't all the same and universal.
Originally by: Goumindong
How about this "Cruisers are not supposed to be fast ships, they are supposed to be medium speed ships"

They are.
Originally by: Goumindong
Yes there is a reason people don't fly plated crows, and its because doing so is stupid. How do you not see the connection between speed fit cruisers and obsolete tanked frigates?

Not obsolete, it was never really viable. A frig never was and will be able to tank big ships, not enough hp. With that being said I tried and for ex. had great fun killing a mega with a swarm of t1/t2 frigs. No my tank didn't hold Very Happy
Originally by: Goumindong
So you are proposing removing inertia stabilizers and nanofibers from the game? [...] There is something wrong when a bigger engine means that there is only way to fit a smaller ship.

Never suggested that not even remotely Shocked that'd kill an entire play style.
Frigs are tacklers primarily. I know it's a tradition for Goons to fly swarms of frigs and die horribly. I die horribly in combat frigs, too, and I think it's still fun while it lasts.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.18 15:15:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Sariyah
Yep they are.
It is not a matter of whether or not you attempt to be get away its a matter of whether or not they let you escape.

Quote:

Has nothing to do with the overview. Based on the overview I can't decide if he's maneuvering against me since he'll likely even get some distance instead of closing up at first. 10 ships all flying in random directions on the screen, if you know what I mean.


You should be shooting him. How in the world do you not know where he is if you are shooting him? That you choose to fly sub-optimally[specifically you choose to orbit the BS at close range instead of killing the cruisers first and flying away from the BS] does not make nano-ships balanced.

Quote:

When I do it means I'll go close thus making myself vulnerable instead of "burning away in opposite direction".



I am still failing to understand why you are making yourself vulnerable instead of killing their tackling support before moving in to attack the larger ships. If you choose to fly sub-optimally it is not the fault of the game.

Quote:
Wasn't aware of that. Never tried tbh.


Seriously? You haven't tried it? I thought were were an expert on killing nano-ships in battleships...

Quote:

I don't want to sacrifice kills to be more safe. And no a few tanked cruisers don't die in 10 sec to another few that aren't gank setups.


Yea they do. 300 DPS a ship is 30,000 Damage in 10 seconds +/- volley damage = about a tanked cruiser/HAC.

Quote:

If I align slowly most will lock me. If I align quickly and neut a closeby frig I can possibly get away. I can't get away from a swarm of frigs, obviously.


Turn your mwd on and burn away. Kill them as they follow you.

Quote:

If I don't intend to fight I don't go to same grid or don't let the enemy come to same grid.
Aha ha ha ha ha ha.
Quote:

Also frigs should be able to snipe to 200+ km, and t1 cruisers tank like a BS, since there's no reason why not to, right? Flawed logic. Use ships for what they are good to do. They aren't all the same and universal.


You are the one saying that cruisers should be frigates, not me. My argument is that these things you list are ridiculously unbalanced in the same way that cruisers fulfilling the role or frigates and breaking that class barrier is

Quote:

Not obsolete, it was never really viable. A frig never was and will be able to tank big ships, not enough hp. With that being said I tried and for ex. had great fun killing a mega with a swarm of t1/t2 frigs. No my tank didn't hold


They certainly have been able to and had reasons to fit for tank before the change in speed mods made fitting for speed a necessity. Pre nov 06 plated frigates were about as common as fast frigates.

Quote:

Never suggested that not even remotely Shocked that'd kill an entire play style.
Frigs are tacklers primarily. I know it's a tradition for Goons to fly swarms of frigs and die horribly. I die horribly in combat frigs, too, and I think it's still fun while it lasts.


You didn't I thought you said that you could put a big engine in cruisers but they would still be really unagile. Doesn't that imply that you can't just put inertia mods on your ship to fix that? Cause i mean, if you can fit inertia mods to fix that then there is no agility difference between the ships either. E.G. an omen with 2 nanofibers, and 2 i-stabs is as agile as an unplated rifter let alone a punisher[its also faster than a punisher, with more hit points, and more dps and...]

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.18 16:08:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
It is not a matter of whether or not you attempt to be get away its a matter of whether or not they let you escape.

Or I let them catch me.
Originally by: Goumindong
You should be shooting him. How in the world do you not know where he is if you are shooting him? That you choose to fly sub-optimally[specifically you choose to orbit the BS at close range instead of killing the cruisers first and flying away from the BS] does not make nano-ships balanced.

Him or them. 1 tackler is easy to manage, never said it wasn't. Killing enemies is optimal not sitting in a safe for hours because there is a BS.
Originally by: Goumindong
I am still failing to understand why you are making yourself vulnerable instead of killing their tackling support before moving in to attack the larger ships. If you choose to fly sub-optimally it is not the fault of the game.

Lol, I will ask them next time to keep tacklers at least 100 km away from the short range BSes.
Originally by: Goumindong
Seriously? You haven't tried it? I thought were were an expert on killing nano-ships in battleships...

Overheating is not a feature I like to use it all the time,just when I find it necessary. So far it was never necessary to overheat a neut to reach a nano ship that is scrambling me.
Originally by: Goumindong
Yea they do. 300 DPS a ship is 30,000 Damage in 10 seconds +/- volley damage = about a tanked cruiser/HAC.

If I want to tank a HAC I get much more than that.
Originally by: Goumindong
Turn your mwd on and burn away. Kill them as they follow you.

If I want to warp away I warp away if I can. If I cannot align quickly it means I'm slowly turning and letting everyone and their dog lock me. Not likely I will run away then.
Originally by: Goumindong
Quote:
If I don't intend to fight I don't go to same grid or don't let the enemy come to same grid.
Aha ha ha ha ha ha.

Very insightful comment.
Originally by: Goumindong
You are the one saying that cruisers should be frigates, not me. My argument is that these things you list are ridiculously unbalanced in the same way that cruisers fulfilling the role or frigates and breaking that class barrier is

No I'm not. You're saying that frigs should be cruisers. Shocked
Originally by: Goumindong
They certainly have been able to and had reasons to fit for tank before the change in speed mods made fitting for speed a necessity. Pre nov 06 plated frigates were about as common as fast frigates.

Also there was a time when I used thorax with 8 heavy drones and 1600mm plate. Not a proper role for it so it was changed. Just as frigs are not made to do dps or tank but to tackle.
Originally by: Goumindong
You didn't I thought you said that you could put a big engine in cruisers but they would still be really unagile. Doesn't that imply that you can't just put inertia mods on your ship to fix that? Cause i mean, if you can fit inertia mods to fix that then there is no agility difference between the ships either. E.G. an omen with 2 nanofibers, and 2 i-stabs is as agile as an unplated rifter let alone a punisher[its also faster than a punisher, with more hit points, and more dps and...]

Fit all inertia stabs if you wish and let's see how you perform. Btw I think every speed cruiser is faster than any speed frig. And that's fine. And don't come up with ships with illogical roles or fits, I could say fit a miner or hauler cruiser and see how bad it is for speed but I don't since that's not their role. If you're a newb and can't use any better ship then tank a punisher and try to score some tackler kills. In a 10-20 mixed frig/cruiser sized gang you can have some success.
Let's be real nearly noone uses t1 ships anymore because there's better ships for every role. Newbs use them, and they obviously have limited success, which is also fine and balanced. The difference is AFs that are good for PvE but not for PvP and maybe that's going to be changed by giving them some role in PvP combat.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.18 16:33:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Sariyah

Him or them. 1 tackler is easy to manage, never said it wasn't. Killing enemies is optimal not sitting in a safe for hours because there is a BS.


What in the world are you talking about? Its not hard. When they have fast tacklers you burn away from the heavy ships and engage the tacklers. When those are dead you kill the rest of the fleet. That is optimal play and you choosing to fly some way else does not make it any less optimal.

Quote:

Lol, I will ask them next time to keep tacklers at least 100 km away from the short range BSes.



You burn away from the BS and kill the tacklers as they follow you. If they do not follow and you cannot kill the tacklers you have left the fight with no losses. No keeping of tacklers away from BS is necessary.

Quote:

Overheating is not a feature I like to use it all the time,just when I find it necessary. So far it was never necessary to overheat a neut to reach a nano ship that is scrambling me.


That is because its impossible. And how many of those nano-ships did you kill without nano-ships in your gang?

Quote:

If I want to tank a HAC I get much more than that.


Not really, no. A Zealot or Deimos with a 1600rt is around 40k EHP. It will drop under concentrated DPS very fast.

Quote:

If I want to warp away I warp away if I can. If I cannot align quickly it means I'm slowly turning and letting everyone and their dog lock me. Not likely I will run away then.


So every time you jump into a bubble you die?

Quote:

No I'm not. You're saying that frigs should be cruisers.


How in the world is the person who is saying that cruisers should not be faster than frigates and frigates should not do more DPS than cruisers and frigates should not have more EHP.

The questions i am asking are rhetorical. If a cruiser can fly as fast as a frigate why can't a frigate do as much dps as a cruiser? <- is a rhetorical question.

Quote:

Also there was a time when I used thorax with 8 heavy drones and 1600mm plate. Not a proper role for it so it was changed. Just as frigs are not made to do dps or tank but to tackle.


So there is only one fit for every ship that is reasonable?

Your last part makes zero sense.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.18 17:36:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
What in the world are you talking about? Its not hard. When they have fast tacklers you burn away from the heavy ships and engage the tacklers. When those are dead you kill the rest of the fleet. That is optimal play and you choosing to fly some way else does not make it any less optimal.

Originally by: Goumindong
You burn away from the BS and kill the tacklers as they follow you. If they do not follow and you cannot kill the tacklers you have left the fight with no losses. No keeping of
tacklers away from BS is necessary.

Your scenario means I lost before I engaged. Like I went in to kill your rifter and punisher. Not much to fight for. Confused It only means the 2 of us fight differently. I fight to win not to kill a frig and then run. If I go to get a gang I go there with the intention of killing them all not killing 2 frigs 50-80km away while all the rest warps out, lol.
Originally by: Goumindong
That is because its impossible. And how many of those nano-ships did you kill without nano-ships in your gang?

No, someone comes to tackle I neut and shoot. Simple. And no I don't go to roam in BS without having tackler support that's stupid so none since I never undock in a BS without having support. Do you?
Originally by: Goumindong
Not really, no. A Zealot or Deimos with a 1600rt is around 40k EHP. It will drop under concentrated DPS very fast.

I think it's more, maybe 45 but not sure... that's 50% more than you said initially but no issue. Never said they won't have casualties, they will of course. Your lone BS will die tho, that's for sure. Very Happy
Originally by: Goumindong
So every time you jump into a bubble you die?

If I'm slow to align then I die even if I'm not primary. If I'm fast to align and am not primary I can get out of the bubble. If agility was not an issue everyone would fit full overdrives to be fast. I fit nanos instead of overdrives to be agile even if I'm slower and have less hp.
Originally by: Goumindong
The questions i am asking are rhetorical. If a cruiser can fly as fast as a frigate why can't a frigate do as much dps as a cruiser? <- is a rhetorical question.

Actually I'm sure there's frigs that can do more dps than a cruiser fitted for something else. Try an Osprey, fit it without dmg mods like tank it or whatever. And then check an enyo with neuts and 2x mfs. I think the latter will do more dps but check in EFT online and let me know. But no it is not a realistic comparison as yours aren't either most of the time.
Ask questions that apply to real eve world fights not to EFT or other theoretical situations. I'm sure forum combat is not why people pay the subscription but the practical ingame situations.
Originally by: Goumindong
So there is only one fit for every ship that is reasonable?

Unlike you I can recognize what certain ships are for and I don't want every ship to be able to do the same thing with the same effectiveness and same way / fit. I think that's unreasonable. You preached variety and yet you want every ship to be able to do same thing. I'm happier to use different ships not only fits for different purposes. I think this kind of variety (using 5 ships for 5 purposes) is way better than using 1 ship for different purposes with 5 fits.
Originally by: Goumindong
Your last part makes zero sense.

Please, do explain why do you feel so. I can try to rephrase to make it more clear if you didn;t understand it from my above explanation.

Xofii
Hedion University
Posted - 2008.05.18 18:27:00 - [164]
 

Isnt the penalties from acually plating ships whats causing alot of the detriment in this equation? If plates didnt kill speed as much, it would be viable to forgoe *pure* speed mods on smaller ship and opt for a larger ehp which gives you more time to escape. This would result in more benefit plating smaller ships and keep the class characteristics more even considering the slot deficiancy in smaller ships.

Also allmost everything regarding the balance of nanos and the availible choices for fitting, with regards to fullfilling some sort of usefulness, stems from how the different speed mods interact. Ideally a gallente ship would be faster than a minnie but with low enough agility so that its only usefull to bullrush, then web+scram & wtfpwn you opponent, minnie fast and agile so that they can dictate range but still be bull-rushed by highspeed low-agility ships?

//Xofii

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.18 18:53:00 - [165]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 18/05/2008 18:53:30
Originally by: Sariyah

Your scenario means I lost before I engaged. Like I went in to kill your rifter and punisher. Not much to fight for. Confused It only means the 2 of us fight differently. I fight to win not to kill a frig and then run. If I go to get a gang I go there with the intention of killing them all not killing 2 frigs 50-80km away while all the rest warps out, lol.


You fight to kill your ship, and not lose your own. Playing smartly in this game means that you might not kill every ship it is possible to kill but your ship will live longer. You do not have to kill a frig and then run under the current scenario. You simply kill the frigates first and do not take unnecessary large risks to keep an opponent scrambled[also, you should overload your point]

Quote:

No, someone comes to tackle I neut and shoot. Simple. And no I don't go to roam in BS without having tackler support that's stupid so none since I never undock in a BS without having support. Do you?


No. But i still don't see how you are defending your position of continuing to orbit battleships <24km when his tacklers are trying to kill you.

Quote:

I think it's more, maybe 45 but not sure... that's 50% more than you said initially but no issue. Never said they won't have casualties, they will of course. Your lone BS will die tho, that's for sure.


40k is 33% more and its a large stretch. The ships will fold under concentrated DPS very fast, much faster than it takes them to reach you.

Quote:

If I'm slow to align then I die even if I'm not primary. If I'm fast to align and am not primary I can get out of the bubble. If agility was not an issue everyone would fit full overdrives to be fast. I fit nanos instead of overdrives to be agile even if I'm slower and have less hp.


And if you are primary you cant get out if you are fit fast? Seems that is not an absolute answer and it depends on the forces on the other side.

Quote:
Actually I'm sure there's frigs that can do more dps than a cruiser fitted for something else. Try an Osprey, fit it without dmg mods like tank it or whatever. And then check an enyo with neuts and 2x mfs. I think the latter will do more dps but check in EFT online and let me know. But no it is not a realistic comparison as yours aren't either most of the time.
Ask questions that apply to real eve world fights not to EFT or other theoretical situations. I'm sure forum combat is not why people pay the subscription but the practical ingame situations.


Yea, a frigate is going to do more DPS than a ship that doesn't fit any guns or drones for damage. :roll: a cruiser is going to be faster than a frigate that doesn't fit an MWD. Lets not compare fits that are set for different types of play[pve/posrepping/etc]. All these fits have an mwd and all of them have guns in the high slots. The frigate is not out-doing the cruisers even when fitting a lot of damage mods.

Quote:

Unlike you I can recognize what certain ships are for and I don't want every ship


I am not asking for ships to be able to do everything you are making things up again. I am asking for ships to have ranges of fits that are useful for various things. A frigate should not tank as well as a cruiser. A cruiser should not be going faster than a frigate.

That is 5 ships with 5 roles and 5 varying ways to fit in that role.

Quote:

Please, do explain why do you feel so. I can try to rephrase to make it more clear if you didn;t understand it from my above explanation.


O.K. Well you said that cruisers weren't agile like frigates. And i said "yes they are, just put the mods on" and you said something that had nothing to do at all with whether or not cruisers were as agile as frigates or should be allowed to be.

posteroid
im right your wrong
Posted - 2008.05.18 19:24:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Goumindong



I am not asking for ships to be able to do everything you are making things up again. I am asking for ships to have ranges of fits that are useful for various things. A frigate should not tank as well as a cruiser. A cruiser should not be going faster than a frigate.



Since when are cruisers faster than friggies?. Well i suppose a non speed fitted friggie vs a fully speed fitted vaga but both fitted identically for speed the friggies win i think. Why do you insist on fudging details and facts to make you whines seem real?.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.18 19:47:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
You fight to kill your ship, and not lose your own. Playing smartly in this game means that you might not kill every ship it is possible to kill but your ship will live longer. You do not have to kill a frig and then run under the current scenario. You simply kill the frigates first and do not take unnecessary large risks to keep an opponent scrambled[also, you should overload your point]

Originally by: Goumindong
No. But i still don't see how you are defending your position of continuing to orbit battleships <24km when his tacklers are trying to kill you.

If my gang finds a BS with 5 t1 frigs we do try to keep the BS there or there was no point going in. I can see how you lure a t1 frig away, kill it, then say nano cruisers are overpowered. They are against a frig.
And yes I can't do without tacklers indeed as how you said correctly.
Originally by: Goumindong
40k is 33% more and its a large stretch. The ships will fold under concentrated DPS very fast, much faster than it takes them to reach you.

I said 45k but I'm sure it's all the same if its even 10 or 45 if you say so Rolling Eyes
Originally by: Goumindong
And if you are primary you cant get out if you are fit fast? Seems that is not an absolute answer and it depends on the forces on the other side.

Of course. No 2 fights are exactly the same.
Originally by: Goumindong
Yea, a frigate is going to do more DPS than a ship that doesn't fit any guns or drones for damage. :roll: [...] The frigate is not out-doing the cruisers even when fitting a lot of damage mods.

In the example I gave, I think it does. Fit 2 launchers 2 guns with mwd etc. generic fit on said cruiser and fit the low slots for tank or speed. Check the dps. It's less than half Shocked so there are exceptions in every direction.
Originally by: Goumindong
I am not asking for ships to be able to do everything you are making things up again. I am asking for ships to have ranges of fits that are useful for various things. A frigate should not tank as well as a cruiser. A cruiser should not be going faster than a frigate.

Yep, you want to boost frigs and nerfs cruisers. Why? You're not introducing more variety just shifting the balance.
Originally by: Goumindong
O.K. Well you said that cruisers weren't agile like frigates. And i said "yes they are, just put the mods on" and you said something that had nothing to do at all with whether or not cruisers were as agile as frigates or should be allowed to be.

No, you compared a speed fitted ship to a brick-like t1 frig so I said that it's not fair to want frigs in general to be on same level with cruisers, they can be faster but _normally_ don't do more dps or have more hp (there are usually exceptions).

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.18 21:20:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: posteroid
Originally by: Goumindong



I am not asking for ships to be able to do everything you are making things up again. I am asking for ships to have ranges of fits that are useful for various things. A frigate should not tank as well as a cruiser. A cruiser should not be going faster than a frigate.



Since when are cruisers faster than friggies?. Well i suppose a non speed fitted friggie vs a fully speed fitted vaga but both fitted identically for speed the friggies win i think. Why do you insist on fudging details and facts to make you whines seem real?.


Ive never said a speed fit cruiser is faster than a speed fit cruiser. I said that a speed fit cruiser is faster than a tank fit frigate.

Unless the tank fit frigate is doing more dps with more hit points than the speed fit cruiser there is a balance problem that is breaking legitimate fits for frigates.[and cruisers]

posteroid
im right your wrong
Posted - 2008.05.18 21:34:00 - [169]
 

Edited by: posteroid on 18/05/2008 21:49:04
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: posteroid
Originally by: Goumindong



I am not asking for ships to be able to do everything you are making things up again. I am asking for ships to have ranges of fits that are useful for various things. A frigate should not tank as well as a cruiser. A cruiser should not be going faster than a frigate.



Since when are cruisers faster than friggies?. Well i suppose a non speed fitted friggie vs a fully speed fitted vaga but both fitted identically for speed the friggies win i think. Why do you insist on fudging details and facts to make you whines seem real?.


Ive never said a speed fit cruiser is faster than a speed fit cruiser. I said that a speed fit cruiser is faster than a tank fit frigate.

Unless the tank fit frigate is doing more dps with more hit points than the speed fit cruiser there is a balance problem that is breaking legitimate fits for frigates.[and cruisers]


Balance problem my aunt fanny the only problem with balance is your idea of it and the way you constantly use the word for your silly ideas.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.18 21:39:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 18/05/2008 21:41:04
Originally by: Sariyah

If my gang finds a BS with 5 t1 frigs we do try to keep the BS there or there was no point going in. I can see how you lure a t1 frig away, kill it, then say nano cruisers are overpowered. They are against a frig.
And yes I can't do without tacklers indeed as how you said correctly.



No, if you miss the BS, you follow it and try again. If you don't kill it totally you tie[or win partially as you have killed tacklers], as you have not lost ships.

Quote:

Of course. No 2 fights are exactly the same.


When do you get out and when do you not?

Quote:

Yep, you want to boost frigs and nerfs cruisers. Why? You're not introducing more variety just shifting the balance.



You have ships which have ranges of attributes of speed, DPS, and EHP. The bigger the ship, the more EHP and DPS it has, the less speed it has. If the speed of the larger ships overlaps with the smaller ships you remove valid fits for the smaller ships.

Think of it like ranges you have speed and hit points if the hit points of the cruiser are larger than the frigate for all fits as well as the DPS then your range of speeds currently looks like this


-------battleships--------
----battlecruisers----
----cruisers---------
-----frigates---------


The number of viable fits are shown by the part of the lines that have nothing above them. Now look what happens when there is no overlap


---battleships---
---battlecruisers---
---cruisers---
---frigates---


As you can see there are more viable fits[note: This does not need to hold true for battlecruisers since they have mods nothing else can fit]

Quote:

In the example I gave, I think it does. Fit 2 launchers 2 guns with mwd etc. generic fit on said cruiser and fit the low slots for tank or speed. Check the dps. It's less than half Shocked so there are exceptions in every direction.


Are you seriously comparing to an osprey?

Also, a t2 osprey with 0 damage mods, 3 blasters[electron with Null] and a missile launcher does 201 DPS. A t2 rifter with 3 damage mods, 3 200mm ACII(hail), and 1 Rocket launcher II(CN ammo) does 194 DPS.

201>194

Quote:

No, you compared a speed fitted ship to a brick-like t1 frig so I said that it's not fair to want frigs in general to be on same level with cruisers, they can be faster but _normally_ don't do more dps or have more hp (there are usually exceptions).


No, they can be faster, but don't ever do more DPS or have more EHP[with equivalent tech level fits]. This means that attempting to fit for DPS or EHP means you should have instead fit a cruiser for speed.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.18 22:11:00 - [171]
 

Edited by: Sariyah on 18/05/2008 22:11:49
Originally by: Goumindong
No, if you miss the BS, you follow it and try again. If you don't kill it totally you tie[or win partially as you have killed tacklers], as you have not lost ships.

Primary goal is to kill. If self preservation was more important I'd stay docked in a hisec station.
Also if the BS warps out he won;t be idling on a gate, he'll be switching SSs in space ==> no chance of getting him.
Originally by: Goumindong
When do you get out and when do you not?

I can only tell after the fight :) I just lost a speed fit ship and I wish I had a heavy hitter instead.
Originally by: Goumindong
You have ships which have ranges of attributes of speed, DPS, and EHP. The bigger the ship, the more EHP and DPS it has, the less speed it has. If the speed of the larger ships overlaps with the smaller ships you remove valid fits for the smaller ships.

If you're talking theory yes even dps can overlap. Tackling is most fit role for frigs and it's viable as they are fastest class of ship ingame. And I like your first drawing better, looks more interesting and it actually means more options available for a fleet composition since you can chose to use heavy tacklers if you expect even heavier targets and you don't need max speed.
Originally by: Goumindong
a t2 osprey with 0 damage mods, 3 blasters[electron with Null] and a missile launcher does 201 DPS. A t2 rifter with 3 damage mods, 3 200mm ACII(hail), and 1 Rocket launcher II(CN ammo) does 194 DPS.

Fit an enyo with 4 neutrons and 2 mfs. If you like to use faction ammo then use faction AM for the comparison.
Originally by: Goumindong
No, they can be faster, but don't ever do more DPS or have more EHP[with equivalent tech level fits]. This means that attempting to fit for DPS or EHP means you should have instead fit a cruiser for speed.

Glad that we agree it can be faster. No using a cruiser means there's many targets you won't be able to catch because of longer lock time. Or because not enough speed. If a frig can hold a target 5 sec it's good enough for the other cruisers to lock him too so the frig can either run or die or whatever. It did its tackling job.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.19 08:52:00 - [172]
 

Originally by: Sariyah

Primary goal is to kill. If self preservation was more important I'd stay docked in a hisec station.
Also if the BS warps out he won;t be idling on a gate, he'll be switching SSs in space ==> no chance of getting him.


There are levels of risk, taking unnecessary ones and flying foolishly does not change optimal play style.

Quote:

If you're talking theory yes even dps can overlap. Tackling is most fit role for frigs and it's viable as they are fastest class of ship ingame. And I like your first drawing better, looks more interesting and it actually means more options available for a fleet composition since you can chose to use heavy tacklers if you expect even heavier targets and you don't need max speed.


There is nothing in the second figure that says you cannot use heavy tacklers. It is only that your heavy tacklers will not be out-running frigates.

Quote:

Fit an enyo with 4 neutrons and 2 mfs. If you like to use faction ammo then use faction AM for the comparison.


Yes, one DPS fit assault frigate can barely beat the DPS of an Osprey that doesn't have any damage mods fitted.. :roll:

Quote:

Glad that we agree it can be faster. No using a cruiser means there's many targets you won't be able to catch because of longer lock time. Or because not enough speed. If a frig can hold a target 5 sec it's good enough for the other cruisers to lock him too so the frig can either run or die or whatever. It did its tackling job.


The difference in lock time is irrelevant when remote sensor boosted(gate camp) or when the enemy is in a bubble. A frig will not hold a target for 5 seconds if the target is a speed fit cruiser. The target will be gone and you need speed fit cruisers to get in and tackle the target.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.19 10:02:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
There are levels of risk, taking unnecessary ones and flying foolishly does not change optimal play style.

Or rather your optimal play style which is survive at any cost even if you spend a half day out there without shooting anything. Aha.
Originally by: Goumindong
There is nothing in the second figure that says you cannot use heavy tacklers. It is only that your heavy tacklers will not be out-running frigates.

Hell BSes can outrun cruisers if the difference in fit allows it. Why is that wrong? If you want slowest cruiser with plate and trimarks to be faster than faction mwd overdrive/nanoed polycarboned snaked fastest BS that would mean this BS will do like 1k m/s tops. Which means a BS plated/trimarked will do what, 30? Does that seem ok? I think the current state of things is the best balance we can get. People need to learn to fit optimally, anything different is stupid and the whines need to be ignored.
Originally by: Goumindong
Yes, one DPS fit assault frigate can barely beat the DPS of an Osprey that doesn't have any damage mods fitted.. :roll:

What's your problem with that? I think it's more than barely. I'm sure there's much more than 1 cruiser that if fit for speed and range, doesn't outdps said frig.
Originally by: Goumindong
The difference in lock time is irrelevant when remote sensor boosted(gate camp) or when the enemy is in a bubble. A frig will not hold a target for 5 seconds if the target is a speed fit cruiser. The target will be gone and you need speed fit cruisers to get in and tackle the target.

I don't tend to nerf my fits by using dual sensor booster frigs and the like just to be able to catch a pod or a shuttle. That takes a serious km *****. I instead fit my ships optimally and get some tacklers with me.
Ok I'll rephrase: a frigate can tackle a target for 5 secs. If it will or won't, it's up to the pilot. You're right, if he is afk or not willing he won't. If he wants to, he will likely put a point and a web for a few seconds to do its tackling job.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.19 11:40:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Sariyah

Or rather your optimal play style which is survive at any cost even if you spend a half day out there without shooting anything. Aha.


Short answer: You not playing optimally has nothing to do with whether or not its sub-optimal.

Long answer: Create a payout matrix with your various play styles and see which one comes on top. It will not be yours.

Quote:

Hell BSes can outrun cruisers if the difference in fit allows it. Why is that wrong? If you want slowest cruiser with plate and trimarks to be faster than faction mwd overdrive/nanoed polycarboned snaked fastest BS that would mean this BS will do like 1k m/s tops. Which means a BS plated/trimarked will do what, 30? Does that seem ok? I think the current state of things is the best balance we can get. People need to learn to fit optimally, anything different is stupid and the whines need to be ignored.




While it is unreasonable to suggest that the slowest cruiser be faster than a faction pimped battleship. It is not unreasonable to suggest that standard speed mods should not bring a battleship or battlecruiser to cruiser type speed and agility. But when standard fits with the baseline equipment[and t2 is baseline now] are overlapping it means that ships have their roles removed. If you fly a tanked cruiser for DPS support in a fast moving gang you are better off flying a nano-battlecruiser. Since the nano-BC is simply better in every way than the tanked cruiser. If you want to fly a DPS frigate in a really fast moving raiding gang you are better off flying a nano-cruiser as it will be faster, do more dps, and have more hit points.

This overlap means that there is no middle-ground where you can choose to have less speed for more hit points. Because its always better to size up if you want more hit points and dps. Even if you still have to move fast because you make no-trade off for that DPS

Quote:

What's your problem with that? I think it's more than barely. I'm sure there's much more than 1 cruiser that if fit for speed and range, doesn't outdps said frig.


You might out-damage a Maller as well. But you will not for any combat cruiser of decent quality.

Quote:

What's your problem with that? I think it's more than barely. I'm sure there's much more than 1 cruiser that if fit for speed and range, doesn't outdps said frig.


No, its barely. Its about 10%[and the Osprey is faster, has more range, has more EHP, more cap and more tackle]

Quote:

I don't tend to nerf my fits by using dual sensor booster frigs and the like just to be able to catch a pod or a shuttle. That takes a serious km *****. I instead fit my ships optimally and get some tacklers with me.
Ok I'll rephrase: a frigate can tackle a target for 5 secs. If it will or won't, it's up to the pilot. You're right, if he is afk or not willing he won't. If he wants to, he will likely put a point and a web for a few seconds to do its tackling job.


Remote sensor boosters and no, they don't nerf your fits, and no, most frigates are not going to be getting tackles before the nano-cruisers are off into the distance and none of them will be getting webs.

posteroid
im right your wrong
Posted - 2008.05.19 11:49:00 - [175]
 



So if you want nanos to be nerfed by your rep vote gourmindong and if you do not vote Sariyah.

But if you want to be somebody to represent you (the player) instead of their own ideas vote for neither of them.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.19 12:29:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: posteroid


So if you want nanos to be nerfed by your rep vote gourmindong and if you do not vote Sariyah.

But if you want to be somebody to represent you (the player) instead of their own ideas vote for neither of them.



Too late now, voting is closed

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.19 13:59:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Short answer: You not playing optimally has nothing to do with whether or not its sub-optimal.
Long answer: Create a payout matrix with your various play styles and see which one comes on top. It will not be yours.

To use your reasoning I could say, I am. You're not. But I'm not going to do it so; I'll only say that optimal play for you means something different that it means to me. I can only agree that speed fit ships are better in flying around randomly in non-hostile space than tank or gank ones.
What would be the parameters of the matrix? I don't like losing ships still I do sometimes because I risk by engaging even when full victory is not 100% assured. If I would only gank lone ships when in 4-5 ship gang myself, that'd be optimal isk-wise but less optimal fun- and game experience-wise. Since this is a game I assume most people play it to have fun, not to make fortunes and have a linear worth increase. Therefore your argument is not valid here.
Originally by: Goumindong
While it is unreasonable to suggest that the slowest cruiser be faster than a faction pimped battleship. It is not unreasonable to suggest that standard speed mods should not bring a battleship or battlecruiser to cruiser type speed and agility. But when standard fits with the baseline equipment[and t2 is baseline now] are overlapping it means that ships have their roles removed. If you fly a tanked cruiser for DPS support in a fast moving gang you are better off flying a nano-battlecruiser. Since the nano-BC is simply better in every way than the tanked cruiser.

A nano bc can hardly have the same ehp as a tanked hac. Actually it suffers greatly from the hp/tank side. And t1 frigs are just poor people's cruisers anyway and they're bad at everything, but still can be good for their price.
Originally by: Goumindong
If you want to fly a DPS frigate in a really fast moving raiding gang you are better off flying a nano-cruiser as it will be faster, do more dps, and have more hit points.

A t1 cruiser won't do it. So yes a hac will be preferred and it's normal, greater firepower. If I want to take a frig I take a fast one, as frigs are primary tacklers. Don't insist on fitting frigs for tank and then I won't insist on fitting indies for it either. Also, there's bombers with decent survivability; paper but cloakers that have both range and good dps for them being frigs.
Originally by: Goumindong
This overlap means that there is no middle-ground where you can choose to have less speed for more hit points.

Chosing less speed for more hitpoints is always there. Fit differently for example. Or use bigger ship. More sturdy, slower.
Originally by: Goumindong
You might out-damage a Maller as well. But you will not for any combat cruiser of decent quality.

That is irrelevant. Still a frig outdpsing a cruiser is outrageous, luckily I am not the kind preaching for nerfs so I won't be blindly insisting on that.
Originally by: Goumindong
No, its barely. Its about 10%[and the Osprey is faster, has more range, has more EHP, more cap and more tackle]

Hehe, speed fit osprey and enyo 10%, i think you forgot a digit but ok ;)
Originally by: Goumindong
Remote sensor boosters and no, they don't nerf your fits, and no, most frigates are not going to be getting tackles before the nano-cruisers are off into the distance and none of them will be getting webs.

Remote sensor boosters? Who on earth will be doing that. They rather jump into a dps ship, tackler or ecm recon themselves. They nerf the gang by not bringing any dps. Logistics, I understand. Afk remote sensor booster ships, a waste.
Yes, if frigats are standing they cannot catch much indeed. They need to move to catch the enemy, true. Rolling Eyes

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.19 14:00:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: posteroid


So if you want nanos to be nerfed by your rep vote gourmindong and if you do not vote Sariyah.

But if you want to be somebody to represent you (the player) instead of their own ideas vote for neither of them.



The difference is I am not a rep who is making him/herself a fool by arguing for ridiculously long on 1 of the many subjects that players are interested in. I can afford to waste time as I'm wasting mine not my potential voters'. Cool

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.19 14:17:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Sariyah
What would be the parameters of the matrix?


The same parameters they are going to be for any payoff matrix. Your options and his options.

Quote:

A nano bc can hardly have the same ehp as a tanked hac. Actually it suffers greatly from the hp/tank side. And t1 frigs are just poor people's cruisers anyway and they're bad at everything, but still can be good for their price.



1. yes they can, you should look into it.

2. So you are saying its O.K. that T1 frigs are terrible? If they are, why should they even be in the database if they don't get any legitimate use?

3. Tech 1 ships being useless goes against the design mantra set out by CCP.

Quote:

Chosing less speed for more hitpoints is always there. Fit differently for example. Or use bigger ship. More sturdy, slower.
It is not there. It is only there when making your ship larger. Otherwise its all about speed.

Quote:
That is irrelevant. Still a frig outdpsing a cruiser is outrageous, luckily I am not the kind preaching for nerfs so I won't be blindly insisting on that.
Why it is irrelevant? The slower cruisers will still run faster than the faster frigates(when tanked) under the current system. Why is a frig outdpsing a cruiser outrageous but a cruiser being faster and more agile isn't?

Quote:

Hehe, speed fit osprey and enyo 10%, i think you forgot a digit but ok ;)


The Osprey does 227 DPS at twice the range the Enyo does ~270 DPS. [The osprey is faster and has 2 more med slots], so its about 20% more DPS

Quote:

Remote sensor boosters? Who on earth will be doing that. They rather jump into a dps ship, tackler or ecm recon themselves. They nerf the gang by not bringing any dps. Logistics, I understand. Afk remote sensor booster ships, a waste.
Yes, if frigats are standing they cannot catch much indeed. They need to move to catch the enemy, true.


its very effective when you are there before the enemy. Especially since only one person usually needs to lock fast

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.19 15:00:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
The same parameters they are going to be for any payoff matrix. Your options and his options.

While I don't know anything about game theory (and that it has absolutely nothing to do with this topic or eve in general) I think you fail to see that the weights of the payoffs are not defined in Eve. You can use isk, or k:d ratio but I never, NEVER calculate those before deciding to engage. So while winning for me is having a good fight and shooting as many enemies as possible, for you it means doing the most damage possible while never losing anything. I sometimes go into suicide or very low chance fights and sometimes don't.
Originally by: Goumindong
1. yes they can, you should look into it.

Since you have managed to convince me that we're not playing Eve but pulling numbers off EFT I tried it and got a Deimos with 45k tanked ehp and a brutix with 24k. That's roughly half.
Originally by: Goumindong
2. So you are saying its O.K. that T1 frigs are terrible? If they are, why should they even be in the database if they don't get any legitimate use?

Tell a newb they need to mine using their civilian miner on their noob ship till they get 100m to use a hac. Yes t1 frigs as t1 cruisers are mostly used by new players. I said this before, go back and read it. The first t1 ship class that is somewhat popular regardless skill points is the BCs. A t1 cruiser does what it should for the isk invested. Richer people want more thus spend more. Buying a Smart and expecting it to perform like an Audi r8 is not realistic. You chose the smart because a) you can't afford the Audi, or 2) It suits your needs and you don't need any better 3) you decide it's a good money/performance ratio.
Originally by: Goumindong
3. Tech 1 ships being useless goes against the design mantra set out by CCP.

Not useless, less, or considerably less useful. Man you sure only know extremes. Check killboards and you'll find frigs killed which means they are used. Probably not as often.
Originally by: Goumindong
Quote:

Chosing less speed for more hitpoints is always there.
It is not there.

Ok, let's try this again: It's there. Fit it for tank and it's less speed more hp and/or firepower.
Originally by: Goumindong
Why it is irrelevant? The slower cruisers will still run faster than the faster frigates(when tanked) under the current system.

You can't compare two things while changing the rules/environment the test is performed in. A 1kg stone falling on your head on Earth hurts you more than a 2kg one on Moon. It's not the stone, it's the different environment. Compare both stones either here or there. Any simpler now?
Originally by: Goumindong
Why is a frig outdpsing a cruiser outrageous but a cruiser being faster and more agile isn't?

Ahha, so you're starting to get it now. :)
Originally by: Goumindong
The Osprey does 227 DPS at twice the range the Enyo does ~270 DPS. [The osprey is faster and has 2 more med slots], so its about 20% more DPS

Enyo with 4 neutrons 1 arbalest standard launcher 2 mfs (dps fit, mwd still fits etc so realistic dps fit) and 1 hobgoblin II shows as 288 dps (faction ammo).
Osprey with 3x dual 150mm t2, heavy launcher t2, 4 hobgoblin t2 shows as 187. Not possible to fit 200mm rails that'd need 2 RCUs which means 1 slot for speed != not valid fit (no dps, no tank, no speed, no nothing but range which alone is not enough).
Seems like 54% to me. So yes some dps fit frig can do considerably more dps than some speed fit cruisers. I have deliberately shown a bad example, like you used brick like frigs for yours.

its very effective when you are there before the enemy. Especially since only one person usually needs to lock fast

Light tacklers, yep, a couple will help a great deal.


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