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Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.16 15:55:00 - [121]
 

To be totally honest I'm just having fun. Yes I am worried that newbies may believe this guy, since his arguments look good if you don't know anything about the subject. I know I can't convince him since he's not really reading any of it anyway besides he'd perceive it a personal failure if he'd need agree with someone else.
A good preacher or politician, and no I don't hold much respect for neither of these professions as both serve mass manipulation.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.16 15:59:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Sariyah
...


I am sorry when did anyone claim they wanted to remove t2 modules?

Quote:
Goon your logic is, plated / tanked ships should be faster than speed fitted ones and you claim that web and neuts can't stop speed fitted ships.


No, i am saying that speed fit larger ships should not be faster than tanked smaller ships in the same manner that gank fit smaller ships do not do more DPS than tank fit larger ships in the same way that tanked fit smaller[i] ships do not have more EHP than speed fit or gank fit [i]larger ships

Quote:

Overally tanking is boring and you guys want to promote a boring gameplay instead of a fun one. One moment you want to remove speed fits the other you're saying that's not your intention. If nanos were not nerfed as you say then go fit a speed BS and try for yourself.


No, tanking is not boring. Tanking may be boring to you. But that does not mean its boring to everyone. The idea is not to remove speed fits and there has been no suggestion made to do so, please stop strawmanning me

Quote:
You really want to make the best pimped cruisers with pilots who use implants (worth maybe close to a billion) slower than a plated taranis (what was it, 15m isk)? Lol. Weird sense of balance I must say!


Isk is not an argument for imbalance.

Quote:


If you can't afford a nano ship yourself then still, web and/or neut > nano ships. Use them. Nano problem solved.


13km web? Yea, that works... Do you know what inertia is? Here is a question for you. If there was a counter to speed fit ships that were not speed fit ships themselves then why are people not using it? Why instead are they flying nano ships?

Quote:
By the way one could also argue that a damage fitted ship usually can't kill a tanked one, so I guess tanking is overpowered and MUST be NERFED into the ground asap. Dangerous ideas as I said and your intention is to ruin Eve as Goons have proven countless times so far. Enhance the game not kill it.


There is a very easy way to kill a ship that can permanently tank you. You simply bring more ships. Any will do. There is not a similar way to defeat nano ships.[Also, neuts/nos are an effective counter]

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.16 16:00:00 - [123]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Strawman



If you aren't interested in having an argument based on logic then please withdraw from the CSM and save us all a headache.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.16 16:05:00 - [124]
 

Edited by: Jade Constantine on 16/05/2008 16:05:38

Originally by: Sariyah
To be totally honest I'm just having fun. Yes I am worried that newbies may believe this guy, since his arguments look good if you don't know anything about the subject. I know I can't convince him since he's not really reading any of it anyway besides he'd perceive it a personal failure if he'd need agree with someone else.
A good preacher or politician, and no I don't hold much respect for neither of these professions as both serve mass manipulation.


Ah fair enough, have fun then Very Happy

I think generally most sensible people do know how to disregard these silly opinions spawned on spurious logic, EFT warrior flights of fancy and made up qualifications fortunately. The joy of Eve is variety in fitting and the constant challenge of refining loadouts in the challenging environment of the live server - long live the speed-fit cruiser that can outrun the 400m plate-tanked frigate, thats what I say.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.16 16:10:00 - [125]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
The joy of Eve is variety in fitting and the constant challenge of refining loadouts in the challenging environment of the live server - long live the speed-fit cruiser that can outrun the 400m tanked frigate, thats what I say.



Are you being willfully ignorant?

Lets run this down very simply for you. Currently you have this situation

Speed fit BC > Tanked Cruiser.
Speed fit cruiser > tanked frigate

Ergo the viable fittings are

Speed fit BC
Tanked BC
Speed fit Cruiser
Speed Fit Frigate

If you remove that clear advantage you get

Speed fit BC
Tanked BC
Speed fit Cruiser
Tanked Cruiser
Speed fit frigate
Tanked Frigate

6 is a larger number than 4. That is more available fittings and options. That means more variety by definition

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.16 16:13:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: Sariyah on 16/05/2008 16:16:27
Edited by: Sariyah on 16/05/2008 16:15:28
Dude, nerfing a full set / faction speed fitted vaga to 3 km/sec means a no implant / t2 will go what, 800? Do you think ANYONE will ever use it then? You are proposing the removal. You either think that everyone is stupid/blind or you have no clue of the consequences. Either of these is really bad and means you're really bad for a leader. Words don't always cut it.
Yes approach and activate all modules then wait for an outcome in a cheap ship can be classified as boring for anyone that has a decent iq to play Eve (or what currently is, at least).
Isk is not a factor? Ahha. Then please supply my pvp needs for the next 10 years. I'd be happy if you would since it's a real pain to farm all the isk to fit a ship / get implants, I hate it and takes a lot of time.
Ok, so you're trying to say webs are ineffective? You do know that tanked ships can fit a mwd too, right? And sometimes, you can web the opponent and don't let it go with your mwd active? Yes if they don't come into web range and are careful then it won't happen. Well, try and counter their orbit so they do. Do I really need to spell it all out for you? You surely used something different than a mining ship or indy is it?
Mentioned it several times you always ignored it, yet now you're bringing it up as your own argument - neutralizers nearly stop a nano ship. Yes theres inertia but you surely can fit a mwd yourself? And a t2 warp disruptor? You know polycarbons don't give base speed, even if you think they do.

I fit speed ships because 1) it's fun and 2) it's mobile. If I'd always need to only make 2 jumps for a fight, you can be sure that I'd use different fits more often. I do sometimes use a deimos fitted for gank mostly and it is a fun and viable option, too, even if it's a suicidal one because of the range.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.16 16:33:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Sariyah

Dude, nerfing a full set / faction speed fitted vaga to 3 km/sec means a no implant / t2 will go what, 800? Do you think ANYONE will ever use it then?


I am sorry where would i have said that we should be nerfing a full set/faction speed fit vaga to 3km/s?

Quote:
Isk is not a factor?


No. Would you please point me to where i said is was not a factor? I said isk has never been a reason to be overpowered.

Quote:
Mentioned it several times you always ignored it, yet now you're bringing it up as your own argument - neutralizers nearly stop a nano ship. Yes theres inertia but you surely can fit a mwd yourself? And a t2 warp disruptor? You know polycarbons don't give base speed, even if you think they do.


1. Neutralizes do not nearly stop anything. They reduce an enemies capacitor.
2. Inertia cuts both ways. It cuts in the way that the cruiser will be moving fast when its neuts and it cuts in the way that an unplated battleship will take around 23 seconds to reach 2/3 of its velocity. A nano cruiser will get to its full velocity when not using an MWD in about 5 seconds. Which means it will be putting distance on you for 15 seconds and all it needs is one clip of the MWD to be gone. Keep in mind. that is your optimal solution.
3. I am not sure what the warp disruptor is supposed to do. I mean, i fit them all the time because they stop ships from warping. But the nano-ship will leave the disruptor's range
4. I will admit it might seem like I was saying they did. But i was referring to the speed you gain when MWD'ing.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.16 16:50:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
I am sorry where would i have said that we should be nerfing a full set/faction speed fit vaga to 3km/s?

Since a plated ranis oes 3.5k or so, you want the best fitted fastest cruiser to be well under it. Your words, not mine.
Quote:
No. Would you please point me to where i said is was not a factor? I said isk has never been a reason to be overpowered.

Oh, but speed fit is not overpowered, they are just good for roaming gangs and they can be damn expensive for being good.

Quote:
1. Neutralizes do not nearly stop anything. They reduce an enemies capacitor.
2. Inertia cuts both ways. It cuts in the way that the cruiser will be moving fast when its neuts and it cuts in the way that an unplated battleship will take around 23 seconds to reach 2/3 of its velocity. A nano cruiser will get to its full velocity when not using an MWD in about 5 seconds. Which means it will be putting distance on you for 15 seconds and all it needs is one clip of the MWD to be gone. Keep in mind. that is your optimal solution.
3. I am not sure what the warp disruptor is supposed to do. I mean, i fit them all the time because they stop ships from warping. But the nano-ship will leave the disruptor's range
4. I will admit it might seem like I was saying they did. But i was referring to the speed you gain when MWD'ing.

The Ishtar I am currently in does close to 5k and w/o mwd I do, umm, 400 something. Mwd needs cap, a lot. A heavy neut ****s my cap = no more mwd. Yea theres inertia still a plated hac does 1.5k and can reach and web me then. Or a blasterthron with neutrons and null 1 shots me, if you wish. BSs don;t need to compete with cruisers in speed, they can neut and bring dps, someone else can close in and web/scramble (your plated Taranis for instance).

Inertia? Aha. You say both ways and present 1. Ok let me tell you the other side of inertia. It makes me outrun many things (enemies, gates etc) and that's either just bad or dangerous. Inertia also makes me get too close to my enemies (the ones that have an mwd fitted and can click in space with their mouse, that is). Therefore your argument about inertia is invalid since it is speedfit ships' greatest "natural" enemy.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.16 17:01:00 - [129]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 16/05/2008 17:02:07
Originally by: Sariyah

Since a plated ranis oes 3.5k or so, you want the best fitted fastest cruiser to be well under it. Your words, not mine.


No. This is what you said i said. That is not what I said. I have always been comparing similar quality setups.

Quote:

Oh, but speed fit is not overpowered, they are just good for roaming gangs and they can be damn expensive for being good.


Rock beats paper
Paper beat scissors
Scissors ties rock.

What is wrong with the above situation?

Quote:

The Ishtar I am currently in does close to 5k and w/o mwd I do, umm, 400 something. Mwd needs cap, a lot. A heavy neut ****s my cap = no more mwd. Yea theres inertia still a plated hac does 1.5k and can reach and web me then. Or a blasterthron with neutrons and null 1 shots me, if you wish. BSs don;t need to compete with cruisers in speed, they can neut and bring dps, someone else can close in and web/scramble (your plated Taranis for instance).


1. a 4k Ishtar does 400m/s without its mwd.
2. That is still plenty
3. That is why you primary small ships. Its also why your ishtar doesn't turn its mwd off next to battleships[have you flown an ishtar?]
4. There is no battleship that can volley an Ishtar. Not even if every hit is wrecking.
5. Optimal play strategy for nano ships is not "fly like an idiot" its "kill the tacklers then move in against larger stuff". A plated taranis is going to die in under 10 seconds against the weakest of nano-ships while alone. Let alone a gang.

Quote:

Inertia? Aha. You say both ways and present 1. Ok let me tell you the other side of inertia. It makes me outrun many things (enemies, gates etc) and that's either just bad or dangerous. Inertia also makes me get too close to my enemies (the ones that have an mwd fitted and can click in space with their mouse, that is). Therefore your argument about inertia is invalid since it is speedfit ships' greatest "natural" enemy.


Not if you are smart enough to click in space.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.16 18:42:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
I have always been comparing similar quality setups.

That is a lie.
Originally by: Goumindong
A rifter with a 400mm plate will go 2600m/s with a 5.6s align and do 90 DPS at 1.2+7.5km and have some 5k hit points.
A Maller with 2 OD, 2 nano, 2 istab will go 2600m/s with a 4.8 second align and do 157 DPS to 20km with 8k hit points.

Originally by: Goumindong
Quote:

Oh, but speed fit is not overpowered, they are just good for roaming gangs and they can be damn expensive for being good.

Rock beats paper
Paper beat scissors
Scissors ties rock.

What is wrong with the above situation?

Nothing, except it's not related to what I said.
Originally by: Goumindong
Quote:

The Ishtar I am currently in does close to 5k and w/o mwd I do, umm, 400 something. Mwd needs cap, a lot. A heavy neut ****s my cap = no more mwd. Yea theres inertia still a plated hac does 1.5k and can reach and web me then. Or a blasterthron with neutrons and null 1 shots me, if you wish. BSs don;t need to compete with cruisers in speed, they can neut and bring dps, someone else can close in and web/scramble (your plated Taranis for instance).

1. a 4k Ishtar does 400m/s without its mwd.
2. That is still plenty
3. That is why you primary small ships. Its also why your ishtar doesn't turn its mwd off next to battleships[have you flown an ishtar?]
4. There is no battleship that can volley an Ishtar. Not even if every hit is wrecking.
5. Optimal play strategy for nano ships is not "fly like an idiot" its "kill the tacklers then move in against larger stuff". A plated taranis is going to die in under 10 seconds against the weakest of nano-ships while alone. Let alone a gang.

1) ?
2) You try to stop and see what a short range gank BS can do to you.
3) Read at least what you quote next time. There is no post count considered on these forums so you can take your time.
4) see 2)
5) a) transversal b) was just an example (as I stated) c) that is the order of things right? it's smaller it should die alone. It can go and web it tho, till it dies, means it served its purpose. You are basically saying that 10 sec is not enough for a tanked ship to kill a stationary nano one. Shocked Then it's not speed that's the problem, your fitting lacks seriously (to be gentle).
Originally by: Goumindong
Quote:

Inertia? Aha. You say both ways and present 1. Ok let me tell you the other side of inertia. It makes me outrun many things (enemies, gates etc) and that's either just bad or dangerous. Inertia also makes me get too close to my enemies (the ones that have an mwd fitted and can click in space with their mouse, that is). Therefore your argument about inertia is invalid since it is speedfit ships' greatest "natural" enemy.

Not if you are smart enough to click in space.

I'm flattered you like my reasoning and try to use it, too.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.16 19:58:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 16/05/2008 19:59:29
Originally by: Sariyah

That is a lie.



Both setups are full t2. None use implants. None use rigs.

Quote:

Nothing, except it's not related to what I said.


Yes it is. Take the example given. Find which option is optimal and explain why. When you have done this, go back and look at the speed fits. I am done explaining this to you and you ignoring it, so maybe a bit of pedagogy will help.

Quote:

1,2,3,4,5


1. If a 4k ishtar does 400m/s then a 5k ishtar is moving faster
2. Why are you stopping again? Are you stupid? You can't balance the game around people being stupid
3. I read it. You primary the small ships as you burn away from the large/slow ships. You then work your way up. Priority goes to rapiers, huginns, hyenas, and ECM.
4.
Originally by: "you"
Or a blasterthron with neutrons and null 1 shots me, if you wish.


A Neutron gank blasterthron will not 1 shot any t2 cruiser with null. It won't even volley a Zealot[which have the lowest hit points of any of them]. It certainly won't volley an Ishtar[which will have 8320 shields(more than the raw volley damage a neutron gank blasterthron can do with CN antimatter, let alone null in falloff against a moving cruiser sized target with 85% kinetic resistances and 60% thermal.)

5. A plated taranis is going to last >10 alone before the point it webs a target, not after the point that that happens. A full gank Armageddon or Abaddon[the best BS for hitting nano-ships] hitting perfectly will do about 6000-9000 damage in 10 seconds[depending on when the volleys land] which will only kill a Zealot of all the nano ships. Furthermore the nano-ship will not be stationary for the duration of those 10 seconds. Not even close.

Quote:

I'm flattered you like my reasoning and try to use it, too.


I am using your rhetorical technique. I am not using your reasoning. These are two different things

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.16 21:11:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Sariyah on 16/05/2008 21:17:27
Ok I will indeed spell i out for you.
I said a neut nearly stops a nano ship (with help, it reduces speed to 10% or less) and you ask why am I stopping, I have tried to use very simple examples to explain stuff but you don't want to understand, that's fine, I can't force you if you deliberately ignore what I wrote.
A 4k ishtar does 400 without mwd if its using your skills/fit but in eve these are hardly carved in stone this is not a purely stat game. I said the one im sitting in does nearly 5k and 400 something without mwd. Not that it matters really, but yea it does less than 500 and don't know how much at this moment. Point is my ishtar at 4k mwd won't do exactly 400m/s without but you are really splitting hair here. Again I am not using your skills and the fit that you copied from your pvpers threads so the figures might not match exactly. Yes you can play with a few slots to slightly modify a ships behavior. Shocked
Just to go on with your little game, obviously you never in your life seen a 2k wrecking... guess it's ok if you don't pvp.

You're pathetic, lying, hair splitting and primitive insults don't make up for the lack of arguments. Better just think and either accept that what I'm saying is correct, think to counter them with logic, or just drop the subject.

On a sidenote, I'm sure that by now it's obvious to everyone that you're of destructive nature and can't really come up with anything constructive.
I'm curious, if you somehow get in, what credibility will you be able to build at CCP Cool

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.16 22:00:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Sariyah



1. A neut doesn't stop a nano ship, it doesn't nearly stop a nano-ship. Stop implies it will slow the target down. Which it will not do. It might shut off its mwd. But proper defensive flying will make that irrelevant.

2. A 2k wrecking on unresisted structure is quite possible with artillery and tachybaddons. [4k on a Nightmare/Paladin] But 8 2k wrecking hits is 16000 effective damage. An Ishtar has 17.4k EHP against multifreq. So it is possible for an Abaddon to one volley you with a tachyon setup[though the chance of this happening is .00000000000001%, that is 1 in 100,000,000,000,000 activations or 1 in 100 trillion activations]. A mega with null will be even worse. A lot worse.

If you want to have a discussion about what is and isn't possible you will need to quit insulting and start going after the arguments. Oh and answering my question regarding how to play the modified game or rock paper scissors would go a long way to getting you on the same page as the rest of us.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.16 22:26:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: Sariyah on 16/05/2008 22:27:44
1. Ok, you're saying mwd has no effect on speed whatsoever, I must've misread the description. Or you mean it gives a bonus whether activated or not?
2. So basically you never tackled a bs to get neutralised and get a bad beating. You saying a speed of 400 m/s is more than safe to fly around against any BS. Umm, yea. Please allow me to disagree.
3. Funny how you tell me to stop insulting you, want me to quote where you called me stupid? Just a couple of posts above. How cheap of you.

You keep having this really strange idea in your small world that speed fits are overpowered. Not sure where you pulled that idea from. So far we've all seen they can be slowed down, stopped, killed or chased away using certain modules/ships/tactics.
I'm playing Eve not a paper game or EFT game. Clearly we're playing different games. How about fit a pvp ship and undock for a change.

Edit: I see you're starting to learn, repeating certain things that I say. Good work, I guess.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.17 06:52:00 - [135]
 

1. MWDs have great effects on speed. That is not the question. The question is what is the connection between a Neut and speed. And the answer there is "pretty much none"
2. In a cruiser 400m/s is going to be hit pretty well by some BS. But that is not the question. The question is "why are you going 400m/s?"
3. If you are referring to the statement "not if you are smart enough to click in space" then no. That is not an insult. I am making no claims to your prowess regarding clicking in space. However, what I am doing is saying that optimal play strategy is not what you described and that we cannot balance based on non-optimal play.

Quote:
You keep having this really strange idea in your small world that speed fits are overpowered. Not sure where you pulled that idea from. So far we've all seen they can be slowed down, stopped, killed or chased away using certain modules/ships/tactics.


No. We have seen nothing where they can be slowed, stopped, or killed using tactics that do not fall under either A: Nano-ships, or B: Large volumes of Race Specific Recons which are also nano-ships

Quote:

I'm playing Eve not a paper game or EFT game. Clearly we're playing different games. How about fit a pvp ship and undock for a change.


You could at least check to see if i am active before making this kind of lame attack.

I mean how about this. According to you. You've never lost an ishtar. Why is that? Clearly you should have some experience with other pilots getting the better of you and neuting you down?[You've also never killed a nano-ship in a gang that wasn't composed of mostly nano-ships, why is that if its so easy?]

Civilii
Posted - 2008.05.17 09:41:00 - [136]
 

A shot in the dark... remove turret tracking all together?
Instead, replace it with something along the lines of turret signature radius vs target radius. I mean, rather than 100% chance to miss, it should simply reduce the chance of scoring a hit.

Well, thats my suggestion... Pardon if it has been suggested and toasted - there are 5 pages to look through...

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.17 10:28:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
1. MWDs have great effects on speed. That is not the question. The question is what is the connection between a Neut and speed. And the answer there is "pretty much none"

Not an answer, either yes or no. You're afraid to say no because somewhere you do know that mwd gives speed and uses cap -> if your cap is drained your mwd will stop and a good maneuver can get you in range of a web. Inertia can fail you and get you killed in a situation like this.

2. Same as 1.

3. Let me refresh your memory. Also see 1. again.
Originally by: Goumindong
Why are you stopping again? Are you stupid?


Originally by: Goumindong
No. We have seen nothing where they can be slowed, stopped, or killed using tactics that do not fall under either A: Nano-ships, or B: Large volumes of Race Specific Recons which are also nano-ships

Not true. See 1. again for an example.

Originally by: Goumindong
According to you. You've never lost [...]

I have killed all kind of random ships with random fits and been also killed by random ships using random fits through my and my other characters' career. And I seen gangmembers / corpmembers being killed in many situations some including non-speed vs speed.
There is no "optimal play". There is the Eve-related "real world" combat where noone flies perfectly. A killing B usually happens because a) A is more skilled b) B makes a mistake c) both know their job but A outmaneuvers B because either being smarter, more experienced or just makes the right decision be that even luck d) A outblobs B but B still choses to fight
Really it's exactly the same pattern as in fleet combat.
The only sure way of not dying is to never engage. The moment you engage there's a risk. A tanked bs/bs fleet will never fully slaughter a speed fit fleet of course and that's fine because the latter sacrificed other stats for more speed and/or agility so they can disengage if they start to drop. The slow ships can kill some with the help of neuts/webs/recons, tacklers/support in general, there's a variety of tools available be that modules, ships or tactics. If CCP implements an arena kind of combat (lol) which I don't consider real PvP then you'll get what you want, ships will decide not tactics. There'll be less fights in general. Hit and run tactics are currently part of Eve and should remain so, meaning you will always be able to disengage whether you like it or not.
You want to remove (read: nerf into the ground so no one will use it anymore) a perfectly viable and logical combat style. If your tanked frigs will always catch the speed fit cruiser, that will be the moment everyone switches to your frigs since they will be, obviously, overpowered Shocked And we don't want that, do we?

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.17 11:56:00 - [138]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 17/05/2008 11:57:53
Originally by: Sariyah

Not an answer, either yes or no. You're afraid to say no because somewhere you do know that mwd gives speed and uses cap -> if your cap is drained your mwd will stop and a good maneuver can get you in range of a web. Inertia can fail you and get you killed in a situation like this.


Uhh. I said yes it affects speed. But that does not mean neuts affect your speed.

If its so effective, how come no one has managed to kill your ishtar with a battleship?

2. Same as 1 what? If you voluntarily fly like an idiot you are going to die. This is not a surprise. Nor is it new. You cannot balance the game based on what idiots might do. Because people are largely not idiots. And a imbalances will be found and widely exploited.

3. Same as 1 what? Are you saying its impossible to make a mistake? That there is no difference between clicking approach and clicking in space at a tangential angle when flying a nano ship? That there is no difference between orbiting and keeping at range? Are you serious?

Quote:
Not true. See 1. again for an example.


See 1 what? Neuts do not stop a ship. They do nothing of the sort.

Quote:

There is no "optimal play".


If there is no "optimal play" Then the two following fits must be exactly the same in efficiacy when flown in any manner

[Moa, Fit 1]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Heat Sink II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II

ECM Burst II
ECM Burst II
ECM Burst II
ECM Burst II

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
200mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency M
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, EMP S
125mm Gatling AutoCannon II, EMP S
Rocket Launcher I, Gremlin Rocket

Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Anti-Explosive Pump I
Projectile Burst Aerator I

Hobgoblin I x3

[Moa, Fit 2]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Large Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Electron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
[empty high slot]

Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I

Hobgoblin II x3

I contend that these fits are not equal and because of this there must be optimal play in Eve. I am quite surprised that you contend the opposite.

Quote:

You want to remove (read: nerf into the ground so no one will use it anymore) a perfectly viable and logical combat style. If your tanked frigs will always catch the speed fit cruiser, that will be the moment everyone switches to your frigs since they will be, obviously, overpowered Shocked And we don't want that, do we?


I do not want to remove anything. Not everyone will switch to tanked frigates. Since tanked frigates will have less EHP and DPS than the cruisers. If you want more EHP and DPS and range and less maneuverability to fly a cruiser. If you want to be on the heavy end you tank more if you want to be on the faster end, you nano more. This gives ranges of abilities for ships to achieve without overlapping. This means more viable fitting and more legitimate options.

Quote:
If CCP implements an arena kind of combat (lol) which I don't consider real PvP then you'll get what you want, ships will decide not tactics.


No. I do not want arena combat. I said that your argument that its O.K. for nano ships to be able to disengage so easily does not hold true because Eve is not a system like that.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.17 12:39:00 - [139]
 

Ok, we're starting to understand each other. So you do agree that mwd affects speed, great discovery Exclamation But you're still saying the lack of cap doesn't affect it in a negative way. Are you saying mwds don't need cap, that they don't turn off making you lose 90% of your speed if you don't have cap all of a sudden? I'd like to understand where you're standing but believe me, it's very hard when you just deny basic game mechanics. If you do that then it's true I cannot come up with arguments I can just say that you're lying and that you should undock and try.

Just to go on again with your hair splitting tactics, no I probably didn't lose an ishtar because I didn't fly them long enough. I did lose other speed fit ships not once. Gallente are not famous for their multitude of speed ships so obviously a gallente heavy character won't lose as many speed ships as a minmatar one, for instance. I will lose Ishtars too if I continue to fly them, and that can happen to something else than nano ships as easily. Hope that was not too difficult to follow.

Your 2), insults again, oh, nothing new. Not sure how much 0 cap has to do with iq, since if you want to stay within scramble range it also means you're gonna be well within neut range -> you slow down. Maybe you can get out, maybe not. But you know it already you're just trying to deny everything, not only arguments but basic game mechanics, too.
3. Not only I did not understand these questions, I'm not even sure how they relate to you calling me an idiot. Must be some real good argument that I'm missing I guess Cool

I didn't look at your posted EFT fits but we were talking of optimal play in regard to prowess to use a ship and then you suddenly come up with an "argument" regarding a totally different matter, like opposite fittings. Shocked I will attempt to be more clear in the future. Please try to do the same.

You want frigs to be better than cruisers. Well, they are better at tackling, just much more vulnerable, which makes sense to me considering it's a ship that's much cheaper and much less skill intensive. While certain frigs can be flown with great efficiency and are required in certain gang compositions, I'm sure if you check they are usually used by less skilled people that have less isk than others. A newb ship, if you wish. When I first went to 0.0 I was using frigs for the most part, sometimes t1 cruisers as a) I didn't have skills to use anything better and b) I could not afford to lose more expensive ships. 1 week farming to get 1 ship that I'll likely lose in a day or two didn't sound like good balance to me. I'm sure many young pilots agree with that. Therefore if frigs fitted in the same style than cruisers, with same skills, would be slower, that'd be bad since they should generally be more mobile. But they're not; they're faster. More hp, firepower and range is fine for cruisers since they're a bigger class of ships. Frigs are for tackling, and they're good at that. You won't hit a well fitted crow with a cruiser unless you web it, drain its cap, or the pilot makes some real fatal mistake like make a 180 degree turn (stop for a while) since they're incredibly agile. They can be very dangerous to cruisers or bigger ships, speed fitted or not, there's a good reason I always try to have a neut fitted. Sounds like a familiar scenario? But I probably have no clue of how to fit my ship and that module could be missing from my ship for the exact same effect (since it does absolutely nothing) based on what you're saying. Rolling Eyes

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.17 13:23:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 17/05/2008 13:22:52
Originally by: Sariyah



No, i am saying it doesn't stop the ship and doesn't return kills unless the pilot is foolish.

Quote:

Your 2), insults again, oh, nothing new


No it does not. It simply says that you can't balance the game around people being stupid. I am not claiming you are stupid. I am claiming your argument is false because it hedges on the person flying the nano ship to be stupid.

Quote:
Not sure how much 0 cap has to do with iq, since if you want to stay within scramble range it also means you're gonna be well within neut range -> you slow down


WHEN do you slow down?

Quote:
3. Not only I did not understand these questions, I'm not even sure how they relate to you calling me an idiot. Must be some real good argument that I'm missing I gues


If you do not understand the concept of playing winning strategies for games then I cannot help you. The question of "how should i play in order to win this game?" always has an answer. Ideally we want the answer to be "randomly between a reasonable set of options" and not "do this one certain thing". There are other options[such as making "do this one certain thing" option difficuly], but this is the one we pretty much have to shoot for in Eve. Because eve is not a game where executing is significantly difficult. All the difficulty arises in choosing better than your opponent.

[We will ignore the meta-game for now, but its increased by 'random' being the optimal play strategy and is a good thing.]

Quote:


I didn't look at your posted EFT fits but we were talking of optimal play in regard to prowess to use a ship and then you suddenly come up with an "argument" regarding a totally different matter, like opposite fittings. Shocked I will attempt to be more clear in the future. Please try to do the same.


When attempting to destroy another ship and not have your ship destroyed, what is the difference between fitting your ship differently and flying your ship differently? What is the difference between one min-maxed ship fitting and another? What is the difference between these two questions?

You are claiming that when you go out and fight you do not develop strategy? Unified and otherwise? That you do not attempt to increase your chances of winning and decrease your chances of losing by ship fitting and by piloting type?

Quote:


You want frigs to be better than cruisers. Well, they are better at tackling, just much more vulnerable, which makes sense to me considering it's a ship that's much cheaper and much less skill intensive.


No, I want frigs to be different than cruisers. There needs to be varying levels of effectiveness where it makes sense sometimes to tank a frigate[use it to effectively kill tackling frigates for instance, or very light raiding] and it makes sense sometimes tank a cruiser and it also makes sense to nano a frigate and it also makes sense to nano a cruiser.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.17 14:52:00 - [141]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
No, i am saying it doesn't stop the ship and doesn't return kills unless the pilot is foolish.

Define foolish, one can say it is foolish o engage in a fight. Since your demagogy has been pretty inconsistent so far, I need to ask. I could also say that one engaging a tactically superior opponent is foolish and instead of whining on forums should rethink their strategy.
Besides I think I have used the term "nearly stop", and explained it in great length, that slowing down to 300-500 m/s in a paper ship is as close to death as you can get. If you let them perma mwd around you, then no, you're not gonna hit them with your bs or whatever you think people should use. The problem with speed fit ships is that you need to slow them down to kill them, and yes, there's ways to do that.
Originally by: Goumindong
No it does not. It simply says that you can't balance the game around people being stupid. I am not claiming you are stupid. I am claiming your argument is false because it hedges on the person flying the nano ship to be stupid.

There's words you use too often. And it's probably just me, I thought for a moment you're actually going personal and calling me an idiot. I obviously misread then, perhaps? Very Happy
Originally by: Goumindong
WHEN do you slow down?

Dumb question. Since you can't make basic assumptions or test for yourself I'll tell you: right as your mwd turns off because of the lack of cap.
Originally by: Goumindong
If you do not understand the concept of playing winning strategies for games then I cannot help you. The question of "how should i play in order to win this game?" always has an answer. Ideally we want the answer to be "randomly between a reasonable set of options" and not "do this one certain thing". There are other options[such as making "do this one certain thing" option difficuly], but this is the one we pretty much have to shoot for in Eve. Because eve is not a game where executing is significantly difficult. All the difficulty arises in choosing better than your opponent.

You start talking gibberish. Your question did not make sense as you clearly did not answer to my 3). You were talking about some mistakes and if it's same to navigate by clicking in space or use the limited navigation buttons and that's a discussion you seem to be continuing and we didn't even started it. Shocked Your english and demagogic skills seem just fine, not sure why this sudden lack of proper phrasing.
Originally by: Goumindong
When attempting to destroy another ship and not have your ship destroyed, what is the difference between fitting your ship differently and flying your ship differently? What is the difference between one min-maxed ship fitting and another? What is the difference between these two questions?

Wrong, I was talking of personal skills and then you negated something about fitting. The goal is the same, but these are two entirely different tools to achieve it. If you answer please pay attention to my statements/questions, and don't answer to your own thoughts right after quoting me.
Originally by: Goumindong
No, I want frigs to be different than cruisers. There needs to be varying levels of effectiveness where it makes sense sometimes to tank a frigate[use it to effectively kill tackling frigates for instance, or very light raiding] and it makes sense sometimes tank a cruiser and it also makes sense to nano a frigate and it also makes sense to nano a cruiser.

So you don't want a cruiser to be able to kill a frig, you want only frigs to kill frigs (plated frigs > speed frigs). That's a weird sense of balance. Plated frigs can kill speed frigs but it's hard. Frigs are very agile they don't have as many problems with inertia as bigger ships.
Basically you want a generic tanking > speed situation (doesn't that kill the variety you claim to be after?). I want malaysian twin teens for free. We can all wish stuff, doesn't mean it's reasonable. You're going for CSM, act like it.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.17 16:10:00 - [142]
 

Quote:

Define foolish, one can say it is foolish o engage in a fight. Since your demagogy has been pretty inconsistent so far, I need to ask. I could also say that one engaging a tactically superior opponent is foolish and instead of whining on forums should rethink their strategy.


Engaging a superior force is foolish. This is one of the reasons that nanos[and cloaks as had been brought up] are so strong. You never have to engage a superior force unless that force is nanod.

Quote:

There's words you use too often. And it's probably just me, I thought for a moment you're actually going personal and calling me an idiot. I obviously misread then, perhaps?


yes

Quote:

Dumb question. Since you can't make basic assumptions or test for yourself I'll tell you: right as your mwd turns off because of the lack of cap.


Good, now we are getting somewhere. When does your MWD turn off from lack of cap?

Quote:

You start talking gibberish. Your question did not make sense as you clearly did not answer to my 3). You were talking about some mistakes and if it's same to navigate by clicking in space or use the limited navigation buttons and that's a discussion you seem to be continuing and we didn't even started it. Shocked Your english and demagogic skills seem just fine, not sure why this sudden lack of proper phrasing.


Your number 3 hedged on the nano-pilot making a bone headed error. I then responded saying that you can't balance based on the nano-pilot making a bone headed error. You responded by saying that the pilot could not make an error and that anything he could do was fine to balance by because it was equally strong with any other thing.

Quote:

Wrong, I was talking of personal skills and then you negated something about fitting. The goal is the same, but these are two entirely different tools to achieve it. If you answer please pay attention to my statements/questions, and don't answer to your own thoughts right after quoting me.



What is the difference between personal skills, flying skills, and fitting skills? Pilots need all of them and all of them have optimal solutions[or at least more optimal solutions.

Quote:

So you don't want a cruiser to be able to kill a frig, you want only frigs to kill frigs (plated frigs > speed frigs). That's a weird sense of balance. Plated frigs can kill speed frigs but it's hard. Frigs are very agile they don't have as many problems with inertia as bigger ships.
Basically you want a generic tanking > speed situation (doesn't that kill the variety you claim to be after?). I want malaysian twin teens for free. We can all wish stuff, doesn't mean it's reasonable. You're going for CSM, act like it.


No. I do not want a generic tanking>speed situation. I want a situation where speed is better sometimes and tanking is better sometimes and size is better sometimes not a situation where speed is better all the times unless you are in a battleship.

Specifically this means webs that are worse the smaller a ship is(so that you don't die the instant you are webbed in a small ship). And speed mods made into speed, agility, and size(signature)[so damage avoidance against tracking and missiles is increased, but speed itself is reduced] instead of speed/agility/mass. That way, the ability to tank via speed can be kept the same, or even increased, but the ability to disengage can be reduced.

A good way to think about it is "if you currently took 100 DPS from an enemy gang but could leave in 2 seconds now you will take 50 DPS, but it might take you 6 seconds to leave". This increases the survivability of smaller ships when they are engaging, but reduces the survivability of fast ships overall.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.17 17:55:00 - [143]
 

Edited by: Sariyah on 17/05/2008 17:56:11
Originally by: Goumindong
Engaging a superior force is foolish. This is one of the reasons that nanos[and cloaks as had been brought up] are so strong. You never have to engage a superior force unless that force is nanod.

You never have to engage a superior force even if you have civilian shield boosters and basic miners fitted randomly to your ship either, man. This has nothing to do with nanos.
Originally by: Goumindong
Quote:
I thought for a moment you're actually going personal and calling me an idiot. I obviously misread then, perhaps?

yes

You have denied it before, I quoted it for you and you chose to ignore that, now you're denying again. Let's drop
Originally by: Goumindong
Good, now we are getting somewhere. When does your MWD turn off from lack of cap?

No, we're not. Always. I assume you already have an idea about the relation between mwd-cap-neut-speed and this is just some twisted attempt to achieve something, not sure what. You are basically saying that energy neutralizers are useless against speed ships, well I know better and fit them even on speed ships if i can.
Originally by: Goumindong
Your number 3 hedged on the nano-pilot making a bone headed error. I then responded saying that you can't balance based on the nano-pilot making a bone headed error. You responded by saying that the pilot could not make an error and that anything he could do was fine to balance by because it was equally strong with any other thing.

Quite hard to understand what you mean. I think you mean it's a pilot error to go into neutralizer range? I need to, to scramble. Maybe I have a faction warp disruptor and opponent has t2 neut but that leaves me a margin of 2-3 km to orbit in, that is not enough at all since a nanoed cruiser has a really bad/ugly orbit because of inertia if the other ship has moving, so I either drop the point by drifting out or I get neutralized if I get too close. If I don't go in to tackle, means I'm not engaging at all. If enemy is AFK I can stay out tho as they won't warp away indeed :)
Originally by: Goumindong
What is the difference between personal skills, flying skills, and fitting skills? Pilots need all of them and all of them have optimal solutions[or at least more optimal solutions.

They are totally different tools to achieve a goal, you combine in an attempt for success. That is the only common thing they share.
Originally by: Goumindong
No. I do not want a generic tanking>speed situation. I want a situation where speed is better sometimes and tanking is better sometimes and size is better sometimes not a situation where speed is better all the times unless you are in a battleship.

No, you made it clear that you want frigs to be faster under any circumstances. You gave an example of Rifter vs. Maller I think that had totally opposite fits regarding speed :)
Originally by: Goumindong
webs that are worse the smaller a ship is [...] And speed mods made into speed, agility, and size(signature)[so damage avoidance against tracking and missiles is increased, but speed itself is reduced] instead of speed/agility/mass. That way, the ability to tank via speed can be kept the same, or even increased, but the ability to disengage can be reduced. [...]
This increases the survivability of smaller ships when they are engaging, but reduces the survivability of fast ships overall.

Don't protect small ships too much. They have a small sig already so they're fine. They're cheap, for a reason. They should be more dispensable than bigger, more expensive ships.
Nerfing inertia will mean that cruiser sized ships will hardly be able to even establish an orbit not to mention maintaining it. Inertia will not only increase align time, it also nullifies their ability to maneuver so basically they will only be able to fly fast in a linear direction, which is useless and nearly never the case in pvp. Fighting and participating in a linear sprint speed c

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.17 18:16:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 17/05/2008 18:17:10
Originally by: Sariyah

You never have to engage a superior force even if you have civilian shield boosters and basic miners fitted randomly to your ship either, man. This has nothing to do with nanos.




Yes it does. It would only not if you could fly around a basic miner/civvie shield boosted ship and not ever engage in combat while being able to shoot enemies when possible.

Quote:

You have denied it before, I quoted it for you and you chose to ignore that, now you're denying again. Let's drop




Read it again. You are mistaken.

Quote:

No, we're not. Always. I assume you already have an idea about the relation between mwd-cap-neut-speed and this is just some twisted attempt to achieve something, not sure what. You are basically saying that energy neutralizers are useless against speed ships, well I know better and fit them even on speed ships if i can.


We are only getting nowhere if you refuse to follow the argument.

Quote:

Quite hard to understand what you mean. I think you mean it's a pilot error to go into neutralizer range? I need to, to scramble. Maybe I have a faction warp disruptor and opponent has t2 neut but that leaves me a margin of 2-3 km to orbit in, that is not enough at all since a nanoed cruiser has a really bad/ugly orbit because of inertia if the other ship has moving, so I either drop the point by drifting out or I get neutralized if I get too close. If I don't go in to tackle, means I'm not engaging at all. If enemy is AFK I can stay out tho as they won't warp away indeed :)


overload your point, keep your mwd on enough when engaging BS. Do not fly into neut range of multiple BS at the same time.

Quote:

They are totally different tools to achieve a goal, you combine in an attempt for success. That is the only common thing they share.


Good, no what does that common practice have to do with achieving goals? And what does winning have to do with achieving goals?

Quote:

No, you made it clear that you want frigs to be faster under any circumstances. You gave an example of Rifter vs. Maller I think that had totally opposite fits regarding speed :)


No, they both had t2 fits. That is under specific circumstances.

Quote:

Don't protect small ships too much. They have a small sig already so they're fine. They're cheap, for a reason. They should be more dispensable than bigger, more expensive ships.
Nerfing inertia will mean that cruiser sized ships will hardly be able to even establish an orbit not to mention maintaining it. Inertia will not only increase align time, it also nullifies their ability to maneuver so basically they will only be able to fly fast in a linear direction, which is useless and nearly never the case in pvp. Fighting and participating in a linear sprint speed c


Small sig is worth almost nothing at the moment. A crow has a sig radius of around 150 at max skills. That enough to be hit over half damage by cruise missiles.

There will be no nerfing of agility. There will only be choice. Agility or speed, not agility and speed. Furthermore there will be no nullification. When istabs were nerfed after their buff in nov 06 it did not kill cruiser nano fits even though cruiser nano-fits were more agile then than they are now.

posteroid
im right your wrong
Posted - 2008.05.17 18:26:00 - [145]
 



Oh joy 5 pages of gormindong telling ppl how eve should be instead of listening to what they want....and oh look its his pet hate the nano issue.

Nano ships are popular and that is the most important thing candidates should understand as this is obviously something some of the more opinionated muppets (gourmindong) who want to represent the ppl fail to understand.

Jeeez 5 pages of the tard and his fitting tool pvp xp/knowledge is enough to fry the mind of the most patient stfu all readyShocked.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.17 18:49:00 - [146]
 

Dual MWD ravens and 8 heat sink Geddons were also popular. Popular does not mean balanced.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.17 19:08:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
Yes it does. It would only not if you could fly around a basic miner/civvie shield boosted ship and not ever engage in combat while being able to shoot enemies

No it does not. You can sit in a heavy tanked bs gang and chose not to engage but rather run if you feel you don't have chances/are a coward/whatever.
Originally by: Goumindong
Read it again. You are mistaken.

You called me an idiot. There is no way to misunderstand that. But I'm holding no grudge, don't misunderstand me! I know this is just a computer space ship game. You can call me whatever you like, it's fine. Don't deny it 2 posts after that's all :)
Originally by: Goumindong
We are only getting nowhere if you refuse to follow the argument.

Excuse-me for not following your childish game. Neut -> no mwd -> slow down. No need to write an essay, or to reach to that basic conclusion after 5 pages of guessing game.
Originally by: Goumindong
overload your point, keep your mwd on [...] Do not fly into neut range of multiple BS

Thanks for the tips. Consider I'm in a cruiser. If a BS choses to mwd to me, or smarter, tries to counter my orbit, I won't necessarily notice as he aligned, maybe when he's 500 m/s+ and going up quickly to 1000+. Or a cruiser to 1500+ even faster. That can potentially break my orbit distance with a good 5-8 km. Hell if he is just trying to run away I can't orbit it well and with an orbit set to 20km I'm at 25 by default and I can be anywhere between 20 or 30 sometimes. Yes an overloaded 30km warp disruptor will surely help. Only if he doesn't overload mwd/neut. I can navigate manually but it's also unlikely to keep a certain fixed distance because of the inertia cruisers have.
Realistically, if he wants to he will neut me and as I notice I can possibly GTFO same moment. Depending on the situation. If I'm not alone, it's easier. If they have a tackler I can easily die. I attack their tackler but can't hit it because of its speed (and I don't use a neut, no, they don't work right?). In seconds with my 4-500 m/s I will already have the web of a cruiser/bs on me. Doesn't take a lot of time really.
Originally by: Goumindong
what does that common practice have to do with achieving goals? And what does winning have to do with achieving goals?

Not a clue what your special mind is thinking. Spit it out if you want to share it. They are different things. See you're a good EFT specialist, can calculate 2x2 and possibly more complicated mathematic operations, still you're proposing an inertia nerf with the purpose of having speed cruisers easier to catch, while you have no consideration or knowledge about how that would affect combat itself.
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Sariyah
totally opposite fits regarding speed
No, they both had t2 fits.

Haha, not quality but oppsite in regard to speed. You really expect tank fit frig to go faster than speed fit cruiser? I thought you were joking initially. You're comparing an attribute of tho ships when one is specially fitted for that attribute, then one is against (same as default speed or even lower). A big sharp knife cuts better into stuff than a small blunt one.
Originally by: Goumindong
A crow has a sig radius of around 150 [...] enough to be hit over half damage by cruise missiles.

HAHA PLATED TRIMARKED CROW! brilliant! Laughing No really. Hope you were indeed joking. No crows and cruise missiles in the same sentence please.
Originally by: Goumindong
When istabs were nerfed after their buff in nov 06 it did not kill cruiser nano fits even though cruiser nano-fits were more agile then than they are now.

Speed fits were brought in line with the rest. They were overpowered, they got a big nerf, they are fine now. No more 4-5k m/s phoons/domis. BSs are back to sniping or tanked close range combat.
I'm glad you never in your life seen a speed fitted Machariel. You would ask to nerf it arguing 3-4 bill doesn't justify its speed.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.17 19:10:00 - [148]
 

Originally by: posteroid
Jeeez 5 pages of the tard and his fitting tool pvp xp/knowledge is enough to fry the mind of the most patient stfu all readyShocked.

Cool

posteroid
im right your wrong
Posted - 2008.05.17 19:31:00 - [149]
 

Edited by: posteroid on 17/05/2008 19:34:15
Originally by: Goumindong
Illogical comparison from the tard who preaches junk


You draw the word balance like a gun when ever you want to pitch your moronic ideas, nano ships are balanced you trade of tank or gank/dps for speed.

Interesting that you are willing to ignore whats popular with the players in eve for your own idea of "gourmindong online" while your vying for a place to represent the players in eve who mostly disagree with your stupid ideas.


Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.17 20:14:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 17/05/2008 20:14:39
Originally by: Sariyah

No it does not. You can sit in a heavy tanked bs gang and chose not to engage but rather run if you feel you don't have chances/are a coward/whatever.


This is not true, it is quite easy to force a tanked BS gang to engage.

Quote:

You called me an idiot. There is no way to misunderstand that. But I'm holding no grudge, don't misunderstand me! I know this is just a computer space ship game. You can call me whatever you like, it's fine. Don't deny it 2 posts after that's all :)


I did not, read it again. I said that you were balancing based on the nano-pilot being an idiot.

Quote:

Excuse-me for not following your childish game. Neut -> no mwd -> slow down. No need to write an essay, or to reach to that basic conclusion after 5 pages of guessing game.


There needs to be not guessing and no 5 pages if you follow along. If you are unable to follow along, please state what it is you are not understanding and I will explain further.

Quote:

Thanks for the tips. Consider I'm in a cruiser. If a BS choses to mwd to me, or smarter, tries to counter my orbit, I won't necessarily notice as he aligned, maybe when he's 500 m/s+ and going up quickly to 1000+. Or a cruiser to 1500+ even faster. That can potentially break my orbit distance with a good 5-8 km.


This is true only if you are not paying attention. Why are you not paying attention when flying your ship? And no, its not quickly 1000%. It takes 23 seconds for that ship to hit 75% of its speed.

Quote:

Not a clue what your special mind is thinking. Spit it out if you want to share it. They are different things. See you're a good EFT specialist, can calculate 2x2 and possibly more complicated mathematic operations, still you're proposing an inertia nerf with the purpose of having speed cruisers easier to catch, while you have no consideration or knowledge about how that would affect combat itself.


No, i know pretty well what it will change. But if you are going to figure it out you are going to have to attempt to follow along. I am asking pointed questions because when you are able to answer them you will have made the connection required to answer it.

This ensures i don't have to answer the question again. If i just tell you, which i have done many times, you will not understand and if you do not understand i am just going to have to tell you again.

So lets go over the question and the answer again. What do these things have in common? They are both things you use to achieve goals. What does that have to do with winning? Winning is achieved by achieving goals.

When you understand that you will know that flying skillfully and fitting skillfully only differentiate in the time you have to make a decision.

Quote:

HAHA PLATED TRIMARKED CROW! brilliant! Laughing No really. Hope you were indeed joking. No crows and cruise missiles in the same sentence please.


I never mentioned a played trimarked crow. I mentioned the sig radius of a crow under the current mechanics[its going to be mwding]

Quote:

Haha, not quality but oppsite in regard to speed. You really expect tank fit frig to go faster than speed fit cruiser? I thought you were joking initially. You're comparing an attribute of tho ships when one is specially fitted for that attribute, then one is against (same as default speed or even lower). A big sharp knife cuts better into stuff than a small blunt one.


"Haha, not quality but opposite in regard to speed. You really expect a tank fit frig to go faster than a speed fit battleship?"

Why should battleships be slower than frigates but not cruisers/hacs?

When a cruiser is not fit for DPS it still does more DPS than a DPS fit frigate. When a frigate is fit for hit points it does not have more EHP than a cruiser not fit for tank. Why should a cruiser fit for speed have more speed than a frigate that is not when the frigate cannot get more DPS or EHP than the cruiser?


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