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PsychoBones
Red Goats
Posted - 2008.05.08 08:02:00 - [1]
 

Dear CSM candidates,

I am cold and lonely because nobody loves me. I should be a sight to be feared, not laughed at. Some of my pilots have even been known to fit me with cargohold rigs and use me as a covert hauler Embarassed

When I was a young Arbitrator, deciding what I wanted to do with my life, this is not what I had in mind. It's so depressing, I'm considering 'ending myself' because of a lack of friends. I'm the laughingstock of the universe. Surely if anybody can find beauty in me, it's you compassionate CSM candidates. Won't you please be my friend?

Yours Truly,
Pilgrim

zoolkhan
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.05.08 08:58:00 - [2]
 

no. buy a slaverhound puppy.

next question please Cool

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.05.08 11:53:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 08/05/2008 14:21:14
I think we need to be clear whether or not this is a real issue or if it is a flavour of the month. The pilgrim is used much less than the curse at the moment. However, is this just a temporary thing (people tend to fit ships according to the flavour of the month), or is this an indication of a real issue?

If so, it seems the cloaking bonus doesn't make up for the reduced NOS/Neut bonus. Perhaps the tracking disruptor bonus can be improved. This would allow the pilgrim to focus more on this type of ewar (amarr ewar is highly undervalued).

This is ofcourse just an example.

I'm a sucker for sad letters from ships :(

zoolkhan
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.05.08 14:31:00 - [4]
 

this is not the first "are you going to nerf this and boost that" question.

If it is a popular opinion that the pilgrim is unloved then we and/or ccp will find it out
in due time. Perhaps that is something the CSMs can help with.

I wasnt aware there is a general problem with that ship. Whats its downsides in detail?





Arkios Odymei
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.05.08 14:51:00 - [5]
 


Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.08 14:53:00 - [6]
 


Dear Pilgrim.

Funnily enough in SF we use more of your brother Pilgrim's than we do Curses just because the covert ops cloak and ability to be black ops portal hurled is excellent. Reasonable drone bay, solid build, decent EW functionality in small unit warfare, like all force recon's you are more at home as a combat utility vessel than an out and out damage dealer but your drones probably make you the most damaging of your class. I've seen our pilots sometimes use 3 unbonused lasers plus the drones to make your hitting power extremely potent in comparison other force recons. Though I'd personally be inclined to use Probe/Covert Cyno/Cloak maybe 1 nos/neut for close in defense/putting the boot in when hitting the enemy cap really matters.

Ultimately though, I think you are a ship that excels in filling a utility role in small fleets, its always useful to have ship that can warped cloaked for scouting, you get a sexy covert cyno bonus (30sec undetectable black ops cyno fields are amazing) you can easily fit a probe launcher (for finding those naughty safespots) you've got tracking disruptors to mess with heavy enemy turret ships, you've got drones to get a reasonable damage output, and all in all you are not the worst ship in Eve by any measure.

Just need to understand your essential nature - a combat utility vessel thats useful for a whole range of unexpected encounters and engagements. I know its easy to feel a little shabby in comparison to the range bonused Neut/Nosing carnage of your big brother Curse, but you do fill a very different role and one day when you light a covert cyno after warping cloaked to 60 to an unsuspecting enemy group and suddenly space is filled with a dozen painful little stealth bombers you'll find your niche (and then drop a probe in the water to find the bad guys as they flee!)

Lots of love, Jade.


Arkios Odymei
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.05.08 15:01:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Arkios Odymei on 08/05/2008 15:04:00
Originally by: Jade Constantine

Dear Pilgrim.

Funnily enough in SF we use more of your brother Pilgrim's than we do Curses just because the covert ops cloak and ability to be black ops portal hurled is excellent. Reasonable drone bay, solid build, decent EW functionality in small unit warfare, like all force recon's you are more at home as a combat utility vessel than an out and out damage dealer but your drones probably make you the most damaging of your class. I've seen our pilots sometimes use 3 unbonused lasers plus the drones to make your hitting power extremely potent in comparison other force recons. Though I'd personally be inclined to use Probe/Covert Cyno/Cloak maybe 1 nos/neut for close in defense/putting the boot in when hitting the enemy cap really matters.

Ultimately though, I think you are a ship that excels in filling a utility role in small fleets, its always useful to have ship that can warped cloaked for scouting, you get a sexy covert cyno bonus (30sec undetectable black ops cyno fields are amazing) you can easily fit a probe launcher (for finding those naughty safespots) you've got tracking disruptors to mess with heavy enemy turret ships, you've got drones to get a reasonable damage output, and all in all you are not the worst ship in Eve by any measure.

Just need to understand your essential nature - a combat utility vessel thats useful for a whole range of unexpected encounters and engagements. I know its easy to feel a little shabby in comparison to the range bonused Neut/Nosing carnage of your big brother Curse, but you do fill a very different role and one day when you light a covert cyno after warping cloaked to 60 to an unsuspecting enemy group and suddenly space is filled with a dozen painful little stealth bombers you'll find your niche (and then drop a probe in the water to find the bad guys as they flee!)

Lots of love, Jade.



So its best redeming quality is the fact that it can drop a cyno field... great, Cause Id much rather use my expensive recon be a sitting duck for 5 minutes than use a throw away cyno frig! And on to of that, it will cyno in Stealth BombersLaughing. And to top it off, You can probe out ships slower than a dedicated cov-ops frig! Is there anything this wonderful ship cant do?Rolling Eyes

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.08 15:12:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Jade Constantine on 08/05/2008 15:32:36

Originally by: Arkios Odymei
Edited by: Arkios Odymei on 08/05/2008 15:04:00
Originally by: Jade Constantine

Dear Pilgrim.

Funnily enough in SF we use more of your brother Pilgrim's than we do Curses just because the covert ops cloak and ability to be black ops portal hurled is excellent. Reasonable drone bay, solid build, decent EW functionality in small unit warfare, like all force recon's you are more at home as a combat utility vessel than an out and out damage dealer but your drones probably make you the most damaging of your class. I've seen our pilots sometimes use 3 unbonused lasers plus the drones to make your hitting power extremely potent in comparison other force recons. Though I'd personally be inclined to use Probe/Covert Cyno/Cloak maybe 1 nos/neut for close in defense/putting the boot in when hitting the enemy cap really matters.

Ultimately though, I think you are a ship that excels in filling a utility role in small fleets, its always useful to have ship that can warped cloaked for scouting, you get a sexy covert cyno bonus (30sec undetectable black ops cyno fields are amazing) you can easily fit a probe launcher (for finding those naughty safespots) you've got tracking disruptors to mess with heavy enemy turret ships, you've got drones to get a reasonable damage output, and all in all you are not the worst ship in Eve by any measure.

Just need to understand your essential nature - a combat utility vessel thats useful for a whole range of unexpected encounters and engagements. I know its easy to feel a little shabby in comparison to the range bonused Neut/Nosing carnage of your big brother Curse, but you do fill a very different role and one day when you light a covert cyno after warping cloaked to 60 to an unsuspecting enemy group and suddenly space is filled with a dozen painful little stealth bombers you'll find your niche (and then drop a probe in the water to find the bad guys as they flee!)

Lots of love, Jade.



So its best redeming quality is the fact that it can drop a cyno field... great, Cause Id much rather use my expensive recon be a sitting duck for 5 minutes than use a throw away cyno frig! And on to of that, it will cyno in Stealth BombersLaughing. And to top it off, You can probe out ships slower than a dedicated cov-ops frig! Is there anything this wonderful ship cant do?Rolling Eyes


I think you missed "best damage in class" "decent EW capability" "deployed through a covert jump portal" from the "warp cloaked" "covert cyno" and "recon probe" roster. Seriously Arkios, you sound like you want the moon on a stick. +

Also, you will be fixed in place for 30 seconds. Not 5minutes. COVERT CYNO GENERATOR (for the win).

Sometimes the impression I get from the Eve fitting/ships and modules forum debate people is that they just compare stats in EFT without actually thinking too much about how these ships operate in space in small unit warfare. A ship is more than its raw stats alone and role flexibility and combat utility is vital in assessing overall performance. I mean, lets look at one factor you laugh at me for above. Cyno creation/portal jump. This means we can take our Pilgrim out into 0.0, we can move around cloaked, when we find a likely target we can make an offgrid - or even 300 from target point, pop the covert cyno, and a friendly gang with a Blackops Battleship + more coverts, bombers, force recons, can instantly jump to us. This is a huge advantage. It means that with one little cloaking force recon beyond a gate camp/choke point, suddenly our entire gang can be fired into space right next to the lonely little pilgrim and we're in business.

If you want to be critiquing the Pilgrim on its stats then your valid points of comparison are ships in a similar role - (Falcon, Arazu, Rapier) and consister the class as a whole. But don't pour scorn on what that role actually does. It makes for bad arguments.





Arkios Odymei
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.05.08 15:44:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Arkios Odymei on 08/05/2008 15:55:23
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I think you missed "best damage in class" "decent EW capability" from the "warp cloaked" "covert cyno" and "recon probe" roster. Seriously Arkios, you sound like you want the moon on a stick. +

Also, you will be fixed in place for 30 seconds. Not 5minutes. COVERT CYNO GENERATOR (for the win).


Best in class damage = Good Medium drones and aparrently unbonused lasers too

Decent Ew = 1 nos/neut (cause we are fitting unbonused lasers to have best in class damage!) and a single Tracking disruptor! (God help you if you arent fitting a MWD, web, point, and cap booster in your mids, which leaves you 1 left for the TD)

Warp Cloaked, Covert Cyno, Recon Probe = Nothing any of the other force recons cant do. Why fly the pilgrim over any of them if this is what you want to do?

Ya got me on the Covert Cyno being 30 secs, I'll admit that. But even still, if the only really redeming use for this specific ship is cloaking and droping those covert cynos, thats sad because there is no reason to choose this ship over any of the other force recons. Hey, you hit the nail on the head:
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I know its easy to feel a little shabby in comparison to the range bonused Neut/Nosing carnage of your big brother Curse, but you do fill a very different role and one day when you light a covert cyno after warping cloaked to 60 to an unsuspecting enemy group and suddenly space is filled with a dozen painful little stealth bombers you'll find your niche (and then drop a probe in the water to find the bad guys as they flee!)




P.S.- I do want the moon on a stick. The moon's made of tasty cheese after all...

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.08 15:58:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Arkios Odymei

Warp Cloaked, Covert Cyno, Recon Probe = Nothing any of the other force recons cant do. Why fly the pilgrim over any of them if this is what you want to do?



Well Arkios, I do actually fly all of them. (benefits of cruiser V in all races):

Arazu (currently the weakest because of pitifully nerfed sensor dampers) - its got the long-range scramble bonus, pretty suboptimal damage, you can nano it and keep a point (or two) at range is its role at the moment.

Falcon - excellent jamming, damage of a wet paper towel. Good trade off probably.

Rapier - good web bonus, counters nano, decent speedy tackler, no real EW role damage equiv of Arazu (kinda).

Pilgrim - counters turret ships with tracking disruption, good drone damage.

But I can see a point of all them still. I'd say currently Arazu is the weakest, Rapier is the strongest (though rapier's power is situational in the nano environment). Falcon can gain EW superiority and prevent enemy locks, Pilgrim can neutralize a lot of turret damage from heavier ships. If I was killing a battleship grade turret ship or dps is needed then pilgrim is excellent. If facing enemy nano-gangs then its the Rapier, if I want EW superiority its the Falcon, if I'm gate camping then maybe a sensor boosted Arazu.

Point is yes, the whole class can do the Covert Cyno Portal thing. But this is the "Force Recon" class. This means its not that useful to compare the Pilgrim to the Curse as sometimes people do. Within the Force Recon class the Pilgrim has a role and its a useful ship.

PsychoBones
Red Goats
Posted - 2008.05.09 03:08:00 - [11]
 

While I will admit that the Pilgrim gets the best damage in class, does this make up for the fact that out of all 8 recon ships, it is the only one that needs to get into heavy Neut/web range to be used to it's fullest?

Inertial
Did I just do that
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2008.05.09 06:30:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Pilgrim can neutralize a lot of turret damage from heavier ships. If I was killing a battleship grade turret ship or dps is needed then pilgrim is excellent.



Yes it can neutralize a lot, but not all. A Falcon can Neutralize ALL damage. If you had a choice between having a Tracking Distrupting ship and a ECM ship in gang, you would choose ECM every time (which works against missile ships as well and can distrupt webs and scrams).

The Pilgrims only bonus worth anything is the Nos/Neut bonus tbh. I think the Pilgrim needs to drop the TD bonus and get a range bonus to Nos/Neut.

PsychoBones
Red Goats
Posted - 2008.05.09 08:46:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: PsychoBones on 09/05/2008 08:46:11
Originally by: Inertial
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Pilgrim can neutralize a lot of turret damage from heavier ships. If I was killing a battleship grade turret ship or dps is needed then pilgrim is excellent.



Yes it can neutralize a lot, but not all. A Falcon can Neutralize ALL damage. If you had a choice between having a Tracking Distrupting ship and a ECM ship in gang, you would choose ECM every time (which works against missile ships as well and can distrupt webs and scrams).

The Pilgrims only bonus worth anything is the Nos/Neut bonus tbh. I think the Pilgrim needs to drop the TD bonus and get a range bonus to Nos/Neut.


While that would be nice, it may be a bit much to ask for. To bring it in line with the other recons, it would keep all the same e-war bonuses and lose any damage bonus. At this time its the only Force Recon that doesnt follow this pattern.

As far as the comment about 'flavor of the month', I think we can all agree that nanoships are the fotm. The Pilgrim, with its extra lowslot, would better fit the fotm. Yet, it is not more popular. I wonder why?

And sorry Jade, but 90% of Eve have probably never even used a Black Ops cyno.



 

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