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Aran Makor
Caldari
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Posted - 2008.05.07 11:20:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Aran Makor on 07/05/2008 11:20:19
Missles. Most of us, at one point in our EVE lives have slung one downrange, only to be rewarded with .7 damage. Why .7 damage? No, not because of lack of skill points, but due to the imbalance of physics within the game. It's proven fact that a particle of space dust, moving at speed, when it comes into contact with a space shuttle, is capable of totally penetrating the ship, as a skewer would a piece of meat. When EVE pvp is so centered around "nano" ships, who are completely immune to missle fire, and that in turn negates quite a few players offensive capabilities. If a solid chunk of matter slams into a ship, would it not cause more damage than it does already? I agree that the size of the explosion should match the size of the ship, but rather the explosion velocity of the missle, which is instantaneous upon impact, is the reason EVE pvp is so unbalanced? It forces players to fight with "nano" ships, and makes PVP for the average player totally impossible.

Example-

A Wrath Cruise missle fired from a Manticore, with an explosion radius of 38m, impacts upon an interceptor, and does .7 damage. I have been told that the interceptor is merely outrunning the explosion of the missle. It is my understanding that the explosion of the missle is instant, and in this situation, the size of the explosion matches the ship. Caldari are the worse PVP selection one could make, and barring a complete reskill to something more competitive, we find ourselves at a DISTINCT disadvantage when fighting anything that can move faster than 2k/s. Is it at this point we just give up, eject from the ship, and self destruct our pod for them?

Question-

What can a candidate do, if elected, to make the caldari more viable in PVP?

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.05.07 11:28:00 - [2]
 

Missiles are extremely viable in PvP.

The explosion velocity isn't instantaneous. This is the value that describes how fast the explosion expands, thus, not instantaneous.

I find that missiles CAN be good against nano ships. Just use precision missiles(Buff them, the penalty is nasty).

Aran Makor
Caldari
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Posted - 2008.05.07 11:33:00 - [3]
 

Odd, i have found the contrary to your statement to be true. I distinctly remember putting a volley into a Crusader, as it came to speed. I was using T2 Precision Cruise, fired from a Manticore, at about 40km (time of impact). Each missle struck that Crusader for .7 damage. I fail to see how missles are viable in PVP, as they get outrun, or the ship is just flat out going too fast for the explosion velocity. Rather, on the other hand, guns hit, and they hit hard. The trick there is tracking and transversal. The attacking pilot can compensate for transversal, by simply altering his course. The tracking, if buffed enough, can negate enough of the speed factor to score solid hit after solid hit. Yes, guns may miss once in awhile, but in the long run, missles are underpowered. (All this is said assuming a gunnery pilots is not using 720's to try and hit an interceptor.)

zoolkhan
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.05.07 11:41:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Aran Makor
It's proven fact that a particle of space dust, moving at speed, when it comes into contact with a space shuttle, is capable of totally penetrating the ship, as a skewer would a piece of meat.

If a solid chunk of matter slams into a ship, would it not cause more damage than it does already?


maybe you want to start with "bumping" causing damage, ramming an asteroid beeing fatal?

Or would you agree with me, that spaceshuttles have neither a warp drive nor a shield.

My ships do have a shield that is why a spacedust is not slamming through the hull straight into my whirlpool in the lower hangar decks.

i think it is quiet realistic to assume that missiles have a certain speed
and could be outrun or miss the vulnerable part of the target due to the target moving faster than the missiles homing system can correct course.

with a little fantasy i can make it match.

that nanoships have it easier to void a full hit than slow as ships - seemt to be logical
slow tracking artillery have the same issues with hitting a fast vagabond i.e.

"speed tanking" has become a sometimes annoying tactic, - but - its not more unrealistic than other tactics....

do you want to discuss nanoships in particular?

Aran Makor
Caldari
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Posted - 2008.05.07 11:50:00 - [5]
 

I agree that fast ships should take less damage from missles, but my arguement is that after a certain measureable point, for conversations sake, they become completely immune to missles. I can attain speeds on my missles fired to catch any ship going 10k/s, but when the missle impacts, its pointless. I do not have the skills to use the guns that would be more effective, nor do i think i should be forced into a exhausting skill train into a entirely different race of ships just to be be viable. EVE is all about doing what you please (sandbox reference) but it seems if you want to PVP, you have to be a race that goes just as fast, uses guns, or fly a recon that can web from a long range. The PVP aspect is entirely too linear. Think back to your last PVP encounter, of some scale, and tell me; How many recons, Hacs (vagabonds) and interceptors did you see? That is all PVP is now, unless its a mind numbing POS bust.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.05.07 11:57:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Aran Makor
Odd, i have found the contrary to your statement to be true. I distinctly remember putting a volley into a Crusader, as it came to speed. I was using T2 Precision Cruise, fired from a Manticore, at about 40km (time of impact).

Cruise missiles aren't supposed to hit frigates. They are for cruisers and above.

Aran Makor
Caldari
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Posted - 2008.05.07 11:59:00 - [7]
 

I pointed out it was from a manticore. The ship bonus makes it a small ship killer. I hit frigates harder than I do battleships with it. The fact of the matter is, those frigates are keeping it under 2k/s. Normally, yes, cruise missles are intended for cruiser and above, but as in the case of Stealth Bombers, they recieve an incredible reduction to thier explosion radius, hence, the frigate killer status.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.07 12:55:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 07/05/2008 12:56:25
Originally by: Aran Makor

What can a candidate do, if elected, to make the caldari more viable in PVP?


Manticores are terrible as all stealth bombers are. But Caldari largely do not have the problems you describe. They have viable combat ships at all levels and for all fleet roles. There are a few specific ships that have problems. But you should definitely remember that where your cruise missiles are missing, all other weapons are missing more.

ed: Regarding stealth bombers. You need to use them tactically. Which means drawing people in and then using their cloaked DPS support against webbed targets. Inties are generalist frigates[with a DPS version and a tackling version], not stealth bombers.

Aran Makor
Caldari
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Posted - 2008.05.07 13:10:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Aran Makor on 07/05/2008 13:11:46
Originally by: Goumindong
Edited by: Goumindong on 07/05/2008 12:56:25
Originally by: Aran Makor

What can a candidate do, if elected, to make the caldari more viable in PVP?


Manticores are terrible as all stealth bombers are. But Caldari largely do not have the problems you describe. They have viable combat ships at all levels and for all fleet roles. There are a few specific ships that have problems. But you should definitely remember that where your cruise missiles are missing, all other weapons are missing more.

ed: Regarding stealth bombers. You need to use them tactically. Which means drawing people in and then using their cloaked DPS support against webbed targets. Inties are generalist frigates[with a DPS version and a tackling version], not stealth bombers.


I'd like to point out, that many caldari ships are horrible, not just stealth bombers. Drake? Worthless in PVP. Assault frigs? A joke. Stealth Bombers? See above. Hacs? Meh, decent i guess, if you have crazy skills. Recons? Hmmm, yeah, ew.

Lets compare. Minmatar stealth bomber = identical. Minmatar battlecruiser = deadly. Minmatar AF = better than counterparts. Minmatar Hac = wicked. Recons? Scary.

Caldari ships are the most gimped PVP ship set, mainly because of missle reliance. So, going back to my main point, if someone wants to shut down Caldari, all they have to do is break a certain speed barrier, and its over.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.07 13:25:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 07/05/2008 13:29:02
Originally by: Aran Makor

I'd like to point out, that many caldari ships are horrible, not just stealth bombers. Drake? Worthless in PVP. Assault frigs? A joke. Stealth Bombers? See above. Hacs? Meh, decent i guess, if you have crazy skills.

Lets compare. Minmatar stealth bomber = identical. Minmatar battlecruiser = deadly. Minmatar AF = better than counterparts. Minmatar Hac = wicked.

Caldari ships are the most gimped PVP ship set, mainly because of missle reliance.


Blackbird = Tech 1 ewar that is useful.
Scorpion = Only ewar battleship in the game. A great ship
Rokh = Best or Second best pure sniper in the game
Raven = Insane short range DPS with no range issues
Ferox = Best tech 1 anti-support ship
Drake = A really really good PvP ship for smaller gangs. Its agile, has a veritable tonne of hit points and does good dps. If you can't make this ship work for PvP the fault is not in the ship. Try a setup like this:

3x HML, 4x HAML(CN kinetic missiles)
Mwd, LSE, Invuln, Invuln, Scram, Web
Damage Control, BCU x 3

[That is 571 DPS and 71k EHP as long as the invuln fields hold, 63k not overloaded]

Overload the web and invuln field when needed. This will beat pretty much any other BC in 1v1 combat change out for heavy missiles and switch the tank out for ewar[tracking disruptors especially] and you are still great in large gangs.

All AFs are terrible, the minmatar ones are simply less terrible

Eagle = Best anti-support ship in the game
Cerberus = Great long range DPS support in fast HAC gangs.
Falcon = Tied with the rapier for best recon
Rook = Only reason its not great is because the falcon is so much better than it.
Crow = One of the best general inties and anti-inty inties.

Quote:

Caldari ships are the most gimped PVP ship set, mainly because of missle reliance. So, going back to my main point, if someone wants to shut down Caldari, all they have to do is break a certain speed barrier, and its over.


And then they can't hit you unless they are also spewing missiles.

Aran Makor
Caldari
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Posted - 2008.05.07 14:25:00 - [11]
 

Thats some useful insight, but the original intent of this post was an opinion, and its the general idea among caldari pilots. Not the status quo, but its predominant.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.05.08 00:34:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Aran Makor
Thats some useful insight, but the original intent of this post was an opinion, and its the general idea among caldari pilots. Not the status quo, but its predominant.


The only complaint that I am hearing from most Caldari pilots currently playing actively in pvp corps is that its hard to fit the ships with HAMs [when it should be easier since they are shorter range], that you don't get on the killmail in a gate camp because it will get nuked before your missiles get there, and that there is no "learning" ship for Caldari PvP. This is also a problem for Amarr[lol-Omen good lucking fitting that well until its t2 and good luck fitting that well when it is].

The Agility change to the Moa actually made it pretty decent[and the extra gun didn't hurt], but it is true that there is no real strong tech 1 cruiser that someone can go get and and pirate low-sec miners/ratters with, getting pvp experience[even if you are essentially shooting dummies]. And its true some of its ships need a few tweaks. But the problem largely isn't with missiles and missile will still be hitting most targets long after the turrets start missing.

Hanell Steel
Posted - 2008.05.08 00:50:00 - [13]
 

If your not hitting your target with missles odds are your not hitting it with turrets, unless the guy flying the nanos an idot and flying straight at you... Though I would also like to point out that sheild tanking ships need a boost in pvp as the ewar and mwd that you need to pvp eat up half your slots to sheild tank with... armor tankers dont have this problem. So mayhaps a low slot ewar item may be needed to allow sheild tanked pvp setups to be more viable thus adding more diversity?


 

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