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blankseplocked What the?! VOTE: NONE OF THE ABOVE!
 
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Schani Kratnorr
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.05.06 12:28:00 - [1]
 

Seriously CCP, what the hell!
As a gamer, I think this is a terrible idea... just terrible

As an EVE player, I would hate it if my enemies ever had a say in how the rules of the game are laid out.

As an EVE Character, I am confused. Who is this CSM? What good are they? What do they refine into? What possible good will they do me?

So what gives?
This CSM-*****-stuff is about a good idea as the one that lead "Lawn-chair-Larry" to his demise.

Democracy & You
I am NOT going to abide by any rules or modifications to the product introduced by random internet scum, who are "elected" to "office" based on how many turds they can scam into voting for them.

Seriously, what the hell?

The notion of "democracy" does not belong in a customer-company relationship. Saying "democracy" doesn't make it democracy. A community-relations group within the company itself is a great idea, but elevating customers to a position of power is a very bad idea.
The levels of mistrust will only go up, as scandals break and people get their fannies ina twist.

I dont think the people behind characters should ever be allowed anywhere near the game design, unless they are employees of the company behind the game. CSM is an utterly flawed idea. Like an open toilet bowl, into which CCP can throw all the community-related crap they dont want to deal with. But the turds will come back up to the surface. They will happily lie there and refuse to be flushed...

As a customer, I feel worse off already. I am not going to vote, because I dont have the time it takes to make an informed, educated vote (which democracy requires).

I fear a "group" dominated by people I dont trust. People I dont know. People that have NO incentive to behave (not their $ on the line).

An election for what again?
You cannot have an election just to have one. the CSM has no legitimate claim to existance. The candidates are e-Power hungry fanatics with too much spare time. Some candidates should never have been allowed to run (you know who and why).

Barely anyone has any idea what CSM is supposed to accomplish, and since most of EVE are busy actually PLAYING the game, we dont want to read a PDF or webpage or link, or post or anything.

*Chants* NONE OF THE ABOVE! NONE OF THE ABOVE! NONE OF THE ABOVE! NONE OF THE ABOVE!
*moves off with hand painted sign in hand*


LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.05.06 12:32:00 - [2]
 

Vote abstain then.

Lorq vonRay
More-Cowbell
Posted - 2008.05.06 12:32:00 - [3]
 

/signed

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.05.06 12:34:00 - [4]
 

It's not a democracy, it's CCP dictatorship with the CSM as the publically elected ADVISORY BOARD.
The CSM has no say in what gets changed, all they can do is present an issue the "general public" feels strongly about to CCP's attention, and then CCP is the only entity that actually decides what should be done.

Think of the CSM as the "filter" to the forum-spam, the guys that do the sorting of spam/trolling/whining from what's a legitimate concern.
You can FORCE the CSM to present an issue to CCP if you gather enough popular support, even if the CSM as a whole doesn't want to present that issue at all.
But, again, in the end, it's CCP's decision, and ONLY their decision that matters.

Killer Kelly
Allied Tactical Unit
Brutally Organized Ruthless Gangsters
Posted - 2008.05.06 13:04:00 - [5]
 

If you don't vote, you can't *****.

Sparkinator
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.05.06 13:09:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Akita T
It's not a democracy, it's CCP dictatorship with the CSM as the publically elected ADVISORY BOARD.
The CSM has no say in what gets changed, all they can do is present an issue the "general public" feels strongly about to CCP's attention, and then CCP is the only entity that actually decides what should be done.

Think of the CSM as the "filter" to the forum-spam, the guys that do the sorting of spam/trolling/whining from what's a legitimate concern.
You can FORCE the CSM to present an issue to CCP if you gather enough popular support, even if the CSM as a whole doesn't want to present that issue at all.
But, again, in the end, it's CCP's decision, and ONLY their decision that matters.



That. You, OP, have made your lack of knowledge on this issue very apparent. The players have no power, and a "forum filter", as Akita had said, is pretty much what they are, something we all would like.

Although I guess many of us have learned from other games that if you do something a player asks for, he will just find a way to cplain about it anyway.

Schani Kratnorr
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.05.06 13:42:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Sparkinator
That. You, OP, have made your lack of knowledge on this issue very apparent.

Exactly my point. I dont want to know. I want to play a game, not be forced to read forums and files.
I dont think adding CSM will make EVE a better game. I think CSM is, at best, a huge waste of time and resources.

I choose to not vote, because I dislike the entire idea, and I think others out there should unite under this banner.

DONT VOTE, VOTE NONE OF THE ABOVE!

*walks off with sign*

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.05.06 13:57:00 - [8]
 

"I don't know, I don't care, nobody should know and nobody should care !"

Great slogan...
...not !

Cribb
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.05.06 21:40:00 - [9]
 

If you would know the game you're playing then you also would know why the CSM is created. Yes it's there so we the gamer will have a greater influence. But not directly on the game but more as safe guard so the BoBhistory with dev's will not happen again. Atleast that is one of the reasons the CSM is created.

As for democracy, you got a point just look at the latest award thingy.
The alliance with the greatest member base will surely dominate.
But hey that is democracy at it's best

Noghri ViR
GoonFleet
Posted - 2008.05.06 22:02:00 - [10]
 

So what, you like POS spam, Lag and the way the game has become "Capitals Online"? Cause if you don't I'm pretty sure that every single candidate, even those that you are enemies with are against the same things you are

Petter Sandstad
Taggart Transdimensional
Virtue of Selfishness
Posted - 2008.05.06 22:25:00 - [11]
 

It is just a way for some chosen players to express their thoughts to CCP. You can do the same thing, though on a lesser degree, by talking with a CCP employee during a trade-show or an eve gathering or on fanfest. As I have expressed elsewhere though, I would really like the option to give a negative instead of a positive vote.

ZenRath
Psychopathia
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2008.05.07 19:00:00 - [12]
 

/signed

Mr Fudd
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2008.05.07 21:07:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Schani Kratnorr
I dont think the people behind characters should ever be allowed anywhere near the game design, unless they are employees of the company behind the game. CSM is an utterly flawed idea.


There's plenty of other MMOs (all?) that don't even pretend to listen to players. I can understand if you'd feel better there.

Max Torps
Nomadic Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.05.07 22:11:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Schani Kratnorr
Seriously CCP, what the hell!. Other stuff about democracy and whatnot. Then *moves off with hand painted sign in hand*



I appreciate your concerns. However. CCP have been very careful about the word democracy. It can be referenced if you wish. From the initial announcement, to the FanFest2007 presentation, to the following round tables then the forum discussion followed by the announcement of the elections CCP have not misled anyone and have kept the playerbase informed.

NOT voting, does not prevent your worst fears coming to pass. The elections are real and they are happening now.

My advice would be to take time out, read some candidate information, just see one that you vaguely like and vote.

If you think that this election is the end of the process, think again. Each single topic brought to the CSM (or initialised by the CSM) needs 7 days of community discussion BEFORE the CCP Council will even look at it.

I think players are a smart bunch. If they see anything that is going to destroy the game, they'll raise hell on the forums and use that anonymous vote stick and that will be that.

This is real player power. Don't think any different.

Vote for me here
Candidate thread here
Website here



XY55XTY
Amarr
The Fizzy Drink Corp
Posted - 2008.05.08 07:15:00 - [15]
 

It's all a farce.

Only thing the candidates are after, are the free trips to Iceland and to extend their e-peen.

How to make this game better? Fire Zulupark!

Klaitu BenJohhn
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.05.08 09:28:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Schani Kratnorr

As an EVE player, I would hate it if my enemies ever had a say in how the rules of the game are laid out.


How do you know that your enemies don't already have a say in how the rules of the game are laid out? As indicated by past events, Eve Developers do play the game, after all.

Originally by: Schani Kratnorr

I am NOT going to abide by any rules or modifications to the product introduced by random internet scum, who are "elected" to "office" based on how many turds they can scam into voting for them.


How do you plan on "not abiding" to changes to game mechanics? Did you refuse to abide by previous changes to the game, such as high slot asjustments on certain ships? If so, how?

Originally by: Schani Kratnorr
The notion of "democracy" does not belong in a customer-company relationship. Saying "democracy" doesn't make it democracy. A community-relations group within the company itself is a great idea, but elevating customers to a position of power is a very bad idea/


Perhaps you should read the plan documents for the CSM project, this would clear up your misconception about what the CSM is supposed to do.

The CSM is a democratically elected advisory council. The CSM has no authority to change anything. They advise the developers council on the most important issues the community has, and then the developers decide how to best go about addressing those issues.

Originally by: Schani Kratnorr
I dont think the people behind characters should ever be allowed anywhere near the game design, unless they are employees of the company behind the game.


It's a good thing that the CSM are not designers on EVE, then. There interaction is limited to providing feedback about game design to the developers.

And really, what is your post, but feedback to the developers regarding game design?

Originally by: Schani Kratnorr
As a customer, I feel worse off already. I am not going to vote, because I dont have the time it takes to make an informed, educated vote (which democracy requires).


Democracy doesn't require that voters make an educated decision. It only requires that some of the voters vote. Everything else is just wishful thinking.

There isn't a country on the planet who has held a democratic vote consisting solely of informed, educated voters.

Originally by: Schani Kratnorr
I fear a "group" dominated by people I dont trust. People I dont know. People that have NO incentive to behave (not their $ on the line).


Since you have announced your intention note to vote, I find this somewhat hyprocritical, since you are helping to cause the situation that you fear.

Originally by: Schani Kratnorr
You cannot have an election just to have one. the CSM has no legitimate claim to existance.


The developers have made it into existance already. It's not going away, and it does have a purpose.

Originally by: Schani Kratnorr
Barely anyone has any idea what CSM is supposed to accomplish, and since most of EVE are busy actually PLAYING the game, we dont want to read a PDF or webpage or link, or post or anything.


Ahh, so here is the crux of the argument. You're too busy "playing the game" to participate. If you want to make a legitimate case, you're going to need to read the design documents for the CSM so you understand what it is.

You're entitled to vote or not vote as you see fit. It's your account, but consider this: The CSM is happening, regardless of how you feel about it. You can either profit by this system, or be trampled by it.

Breha Organa
Posted - 2008.05.19 22:30:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Schani Kratnorr

I fear a "group" dominated by people I dont trust. People I dont know. People that have NO incentive to behave (not their $ on the line).




It's going to cost me $1400 round trip to go to Iceland and back. So, be careful when you say what you say. And every single gaming company has a group of people who are supposed to represent the players and make recommendations to the developers.

Most of the time, these are paid professionals, hand-picked by the game company, and who don't play the game themselves. Hmmmm. The CSM is a first in MMORPG history, that I know of. Players chosing players to act as a liaison to the game company... I don't know, this took a lot of balls to do IMO.

It is a tribute to EVE... that the active player community is made up of professionals, many of whom have real life credentials in the sciences, and the arts. Hats off to CCP for following through on this bold step.

Jakke Logan
Caldari
F Off And Die
Posted - 2008.05.20 16:55:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Jakke Logan on 20/05/2008 16:59:34
I think it's pretty predictable what will happen with the CSM.

First off, the superpower blocks will most likely dominate the council. They will represent their interests not that of the game as a whole, and will manipulate things so as to give their powerblock the maximum advantage.

Secondly, as I saw in Star Wars Galaxies with the "senate" most of them will become Dev suckasses and turn on players who disagree even in the slightest with CCP. SWG "senators" became the biggest troll and flame posters on the forums, but because they were pro-Dev trolls and flames they could do it with impunity. I foresee the same thing happening here.

Thirdly, if it DOES, by some miracle, WORK, and they actually go to CCP with something the players actually DO want and would help the game, that is contrary to CCP's current scheme which is "shinies over substance", such as... FIX THE DAMN LAG! CCP will ignore it and/or change the rules so as to eliminate direct proposals and stack the next CSM with the aforementioned mindless Dev suckups. Again citing Star Wars Galaxies again as an example, since it's the only other attempt at having player representatives who could propose actual game changes, soon as SOE realized they were going to get game change requests that they didn't want to do they pulled the ability for senators to propose them.


KaiH
Club Bear
The Seventh Day
Posted - 2008.05.20 19:38:00 - [19]
 

Im glad to see you put so much effort into research, and present your case with such eloquence (im lying)

I think if you put your fingers into your ears and went LA LA LA LA LA LA LA it would be much more effective.

Kaijusan
Gallente
Austro-Hungarian Empire
Elysium Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.21 12:18:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Kaijusan on 21/05/2008 12:18:45
Actually the SWG Senate was ok until Badgersmacker got chosen as Gameplay Senator and began to push his idea of how the game should be down the player base's throats.


Sunwillow Auryn
Posted - 2008.05.21 16:30:00 - [21]
 

Of course, what would happen if (for example) Goonswarm got block elected to the CSM, is that players who felt that the CSM did not represent them would just not bother with it, therefore not voting for issues for them to bring up, and having very few issues reach whatever arbitrary target CCP set. Result - 6 months of ineffectual CSM in which they twiddle their thumbs a lot, and being too bored to run in the next election in 6 months time.

Tesseract d'Urberville
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
Posted - 2008.05.21 17:42:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Breha Organa
Every single gaming company has a group of people who are supposed to represent the players and make recommendations to the developers.

Most of the time, these are paid professionals, hand-picked by the game company, and who don't play the game themselves. Hmmmm. The CSM is a first in MMORPG history, that I know of. Players chosing players to act as a liaison to the game company... I don't know, this took a lot of balls to do IMO.

It is a tribute to EVE... that the active player community is made up of professionals, many of whom have real life credentials in the sciences, and the arts. Hats off to CCP for following through on this bold step.

Amen to that. The CSM gives players a slightly greater say in changes made to the game going forward, which is a great thing. I think CCP weighed things very carefully when they structured the CSM, to give the CSM some influence but no power. Strict term limits help prevent the rise of an entrenched political elite. With experience, CCP may still need to tweak the model a bit, but honestly the CSM seems like a good idea to me. It puts a lot of faith in the EVE player base, though, which is clearly not always well-deserved.

If you think your problems will be solved by boycotting the election, though, take a look at recent history around the world. When has an election boycott ever helped the group boycotting? As Winston Churchill said once, democracy is the worst form of government - except for all the other kinds.

Bunyip
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2008.05.21 17:50:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Jakke Logan
Secondly, as I saw in Star Wars Galaxies with the "senate" most of them will become Dev suckasses and turn on players who disagree even in the slightest with CCP. SWG "senators" became the biggest troll and flame posters on the forums, but because they were pro-Dev trolls and flames they could do it with impunity. I foresee the same thing happening here.


SWG was not the only MMO to do this. A Tale in the Desert has been doing this for some time, giving players limited power to affect gameplay, in the Demi-Pharoah elections and the legal system.

And I do agree that there are quite a few bugs to work out. That's why the CSM is needed. The UI, the lag, the drones, etc are issues which need to be looked at, and that's why a good council is needed, one that will support the issues that need support.

Even though the voting is over, I do hope most if not all have voted, as I'm looking forward to a good council. If, by some twist of fate, I should be elected to represent you, I will give it my all.


 

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