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James 315
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.05.05 18:56:00 - [1]
 

This will be something of a unique post here on Eve-O. The purpose is not to complain about a balancing issue, or to persuade people of a problem, or to lobby CCP. It is not even a proposed solution or speculation about what will happen.

The purpose of this post is to inform people of what will happen.

People have been voicing concern about titan proliferation and pointing out that in about a year, there will be so many titans that even capital fleets will be popped instantly by a succession of doomsdays. Eve Online will be Titan Online, just as it was before they fixed (deleted) the remote doomsdays. People are worried that the game will be completely ruined. They wonder what CCP's solution will be.

This post will explain what CCP is going to do. It is not a guess; it is fact. It is a description of the reasoning CCP will use and what the solution will look like.

So that you, dear reader, can be spared the uncertainty.

You're welcome.

Background
The doomsday was designed long before CCP thought a titan would be created. They thought that maybe there would be built one or perhaps two titans. They gave it little thought, and considered it an "endgame" goal.

The Theory
As each class of ships gets bigger, certain principles hold true. For example, a bigger ship:
- Has more hitpoints
- Is easier to hit
- Is slower and less maneuverable
- Takes longer to lock targets
- Has bigger weapons which deal more damage,
- But the bigger weapons have trouble hitting faster or smaller targets

Battleship-sized weapons are not designed to hit frigates, nor are dreadnought-sized weapons designed to hit cruisers. They deal great damage, but must be aimed at larger, slower targets. The extreme example is the dreadnought in siege mode. It must be protected by a support fleet of smaller ships.

The Problem
These principles, which have worked so well to create balanced fleets and a role for each type of ship, have been inverted by the doomsday:

Rather than taking a longer time to lock ships, the doomsday "locks" even the smallest ships instantly. Rather than having more difficulty hitting the smaller ships, the doomsday has 100% accuracy and deals full damage. Rather than having more trouble tracking faster ships, the doomsday hits them regardless of speed.

Instead of seeing the grand titan surrounded by its support fleet, titans must go out alone so they can doomsday without hurting allied ships. And then they run away to hide. It is an absurd spectacle. The doomsday is an embarrassment to a game which prides itself on fine-tuning each module, the number of slots and damage resistances to every ship.

The Solution
CCP will change the doomsday to put titans in-line with the rest of Eve's ship types. The doomsday will be changed into a supergun that does devastating damage against a large (capital) target but cannot hit anything small or fast-moving. As you would expect from a larger gun, it has a slow reload time, but would be in-line with the rest of the game's weapons rather than having a silly hour-long timer. In addition to speeding up the POS-sieging process, the titan will be used primarily as an anti-dreadnought and anti-carrier weapon. And should an enemy titan appear, they will be trading fire.

But because the titan attacks one target at a time instead of instantly killing everything on grid (a phenomenon which, in retrospect, will make people laugh and wonder how it ever could have been), it must be protected by its support fleet. Titans also provide a welcome relief against spider-tanking remote rep carrier groups, since the concentrated DPS of a titan or two can destroy a primary target.

And so, dear reader, you can rest easy. The doomsday/titan/game will be fixed. It will not happen tomorrow, and there is much mischief the broken titans can do in the meantime. But everything will happen precisely as I have described.

Have a nice day.

- 315

Aadi Grox
Perkone
Posted - 2008.05.05 18:57:00 - [2]
 

the other one that took up 20+ posts was better

Matsui Hideki
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2008.05.05 18:58:00 - [3]
 

ITT: cryalition crying because they couldn't beat BoB

Wasted Mind
Gallente
Syntech Research and Development
Lords of the Damned
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:00:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Wasted Mind on 05/05/2008 19:02:33
Edited by: Wasted Mind on 05/05/2008 19:02:13
Edited by: Wasted Mind on 05/05/2008 19:01:20
I will get flamed for saying this to no end but you know what; For all the time, effort, money, training ect it takes to get into the things i say leave them be. It's nice to have at least one doomsday fricken huge war machine of death in a sci-fi game. Even if it does mean getting your ass kicked by it time and time again.

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:04:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 05/05/2008 19:05:44

I'd love to see Titans be able to deliver a single lethal blast to enemy caps and supercaps. The combat-related usefulness of the Titan would be severely limited by this feature, without the Titan itself losing its primary function of fleet logistics and jump bridge platform.

I'm not really sure that taking away the current DDD needs to be done as well though. Maybe nerf its blast radius, or further nerf the Titan's ability to warp or cyno out after firing a DDD. Delaying post-DDD warping would also mean that the dreaded scenario of a large group of Titans sequentially firing their DDD's wouldn't happen, since with the warp delay each successive Titan would be damaging its brethren on the battlefield further and further. So in order to destroy an enemy cap fleet with Titans, the Titan fleet itself would also be destroyed.

edit: and BoB wins because of superior fleet discipline and superb management of personnel and resources, not a proliferation of Titans.

Angry Grrl
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:06:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Angry Grrl on 05/05/2008 19:11:06
Keep the DD as is due to the usefulness of wiping out an enemy fleet with a nija dd attack and introduce a siege modual that increases the damage output of any fitted capitol weapons. Code it so you can have only one or the other mounted at one time. Now you have the choice of having your titan as a solopwnmobile or the mega damage dealer core of a strike fleet.

Make it to where if your in a cap ship or pos and see this firing at you then all hope is lost. Twisted Evil

Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:08:00 - [7]
 

Update T2 logistics to include a new ship which can project an anti-DD shield. Each race's counteracts a rival faction's DD effect.

Gallente <-> Caldari
Amarr <-> Minmatar

*shrugs* Never seen it suggested before, though I don't have time to read the gazillions of threads on the subject. :)

TheOtherDante
Caldari
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:10:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: TheOtherDante on 05/05/2008 19:20:03
i havent played EVE to long now or even encountered a titan but, i get where you are coming from.

but i think that was ccp's intent when creating the doomsday weapon. Its basically a nuke on a comsmic scale. its meant to do the most possible damage to you and your eneamy "if" used. what i would suggest is making the AOE more dynamic per doomsday weapon, rather than just blowing everything in range to dust. another thing would be extending time between firing and jumping to something like 30mins to and hour, which will give a fleet time to begin mounting a counter offensive. maybe the addition of another titan specific anti-capital weapon would be nice though.

oh and another question does the doomsday have a charge up time or is it a click and fire? , if so i think a charge up would be nice or extended one which will give small ships a chance to retreat(cuase lets face it looks of capitals can just tank the DD weapon anyway)

Barwinius
Ars ex Discordia
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:12:00 - [9]
 

Sounds cool. Cool

Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:17:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: OP
Background
The doomsday was designed long before CCP thought a titan would be created. They thought that maybe there would be built one or perhaps two titans. They gave it little thought, and considered it an "endgame" goal.


Citation needed.

Wren Alterana
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:20:00 - [11]
 

regardless of the OPs gooniness I still agree with him, its the most logical solution and deals with spider tanking carriers at the same time. No Offense to BoB but the ability to shrug off multiple doomsdays IS an exploit.
in before goon alt.

Gone'Postal
Roast and Toast Inc.
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:21:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Winterblink
Update T2 logistics to include a new ship which can project an anti-DD shield. Each race's counteracts a rival faction's DD effect.

Gallente <-> Caldari
Amarr <-> Minmatar

*shrugs* Never seen it suggested before, though I don't have time to read the gazillions of threads on the subject. :)



That sounds kinda Cool, kinda like that tank like thing in UT...

TheOtherDante
Caldari
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:23:00 - [13]
 

for those of you who played homeworld 2, does sanjuuk ring a bell? i think a weapon like that build into every titan would be great.

Cadela Fria
Amarr
x13
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:23:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Winterblink
Update T2 logistics to include a new ship which can project an anti-DD shield. Each race's counteracts a rival faction's DD effect.

Gallente <-> Caldari
Amarr <-> Minmatar

*shrugs* Never seen it suggested before, though I don't have time to read the gazillions of threads on the subject. :)



T2 logistics with an anti-dd shield? I believe what you're speaking of is called a Hictor...before you dismiss this comparison, think about it..carefully

You suggested I argue this point, and so I will. Now let me get into further detail: While my point doesn't cover the racial specifics, the idea is for a ship to project something that makes a DD survivable. What you're talking about is called a Heavy Interdictor...once a DD is fired, this ship remains and keeps the bubble running, surviving the blast, and then in comes the fleet, and voila..You just made DD's survivable, because the ship will be dead afterwards, how much more anti-dd can you get?

I mean not to say your idea is bad per se, but the fact is that I personally in my little twisted biased opinion, think we have enough tools to fight Titans as it is..I'm one of the nutjobs who think that either Titans should be a supercapital battleship that'll tear your average capital ships a new one and have systems to deal with smaller ships too..it's a TITAN for petes sake, OR, that doomsday devices should do what it says it does..cause a doomed day for the people on the recieving end of this thing.
What I mean but that, is that once you fire a doomsday device, everything thats sub-"capital" (battleships are technically capitalships, but lets not start that discussion here) DIES!..okay? Splat, boom, kablammo, bang, DEAD as a friggin doornail!

Thank you! That is all. <3 Blinky Smile

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:24:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 05/05/2008 19:34:25

Originally by: Wren Alterana
regardless of the OPs gooniness I still agree with him, its the most logical solution and deals with spider tanking carriers at the same time. No Offense to BoB but the ability to shrug off multiple doomsdays IS an exploit.
in before goon alt.


If the ability to tank DDDs was an exploit it would have been addressed the first time someone performed such a feat, and that was with an Interdictor of all things.
http://www.eve-tribune.com/index.php?no=2_41&page=6

Grarr Dexx
Amarr
Kumovi
The G0dfathers
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:42:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Grarr Dexx on 05/05/2008 19:42:26
Originally by: Goonswarm
We don't have anyone that can fly titans plz nerf titans

Dianeces
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:48:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Grarr Dexx
Edited by: Grarr Dexx on 05/05/2008 19:42:26
Originally by: Goonswarm
We don't have anyone that can fly titans plz nerf titans



Deadtear. Just sayin'.


Furthermore, first page in a James 315 post.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:59:00 - [18]
 

I fail to see the logic in the first post.

So, titans are fine when it's only 1-2, but when we get many they can do multiple-DD's and even wipe capital fleets at once. Thus, the DD (according to the OP) will be fixed so it can't hit small ships but only big.

Wait.. what?

It would make more sense to keep the DD as it is than to do something like that. CCP won't do what you say they will, zero logic in that.

CCP Prism X


Gallente
C C P
C C P Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.05 20:07:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: CCP Prism X on 05/05/2008 20:08:02
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 05/05/2008 20:07:25
Let me just say that I really do like that post. This is structured and to the point, bullet points included. I'm not being sarcastic here: I would really like to congratulate you on a well formed post.

And because of that I will give you my take on this suggestion first:
Mass frigate killers are not bad. Not at all. I can appreciate how the GoonSwarm would think it is, but it's still not my opinion (Attention: Prism X's opinions are in no way related to CCP's internal opinion. He is neither a game balancer nor a Game Designer. Anything said in this post is purely his insane ravings and should be in no way interpreted as rational sentences, even though they might seem remotely similar. Anything posted here should not be interpreted as a promise of any redesign on CCP's behalf. In all honesty this man should not be able to blubar posts. If you think you're reading between the lines here you're wrong. Oh so wrong.) at all.
I could however see the... fun.. in having a different kind of Doomsday available. Obviously they could never both be fitted at once. But having one kind as a mass swarm killer and another as a titan killer could be quite.. interesting. Make intel worth even more. Just think about it: "Heck no we're not warping <titan name> in there! They've got their <titan name> sitting there ready to blow it out of the sky!. Wouldn't make many titan pilots happy in the pants but it's countermeasure to what you describe. Wether it's a good balancing idea I can't say. I can however tell you how to properly index databases and suggest alternatives to queries to optimize execution time / minimize page read count.

But I object to your logic. It doesn't mean you're utterly wrong in your conclusion (well it does in my opinion) but you arrive at it in a bad way. Your premise assumes that we didn't think about what we were doing. Designing a ship which we thought wouldn't be used? Come on. The implication basicly states that since A -> X and B -> Y then C -> Z (You fly ship class A -> You cannot efficiently take down ship class X etc.) doesn't really hold water as balancing certainly does not revolve around precedence. Also the whole tone is more like that of a statement than that of a discussion. Don't take this as any bashing, this is the type of constructive criticism I'd like to see when I post (and by the Gods I reckon I'll see alot of it after posting this.. so you can atleast take joy in the fact that I totally blew my own leg of with a short-barreled shotgun there).

At any rate, I like to promote proper discussions. General Discussion is perhaps not the best venue for development suggestions but I can appreciate wanting to discuss it away from Game Development to get a decent idea. It's good forum etiquette to see if there is a basis for your discussion first. A whole lot of posters could take, at the least, something from the structure of this post. Perhaps even from my reply, we don't have to agree with you to reply to you, well at least I don't. I'm more than happy to endorse your procedure alone (even if it's prophetic). Wink

Lord WarATron
Amarr
Shadow Warri0rs
Posted - 2008.05.05 20:12:00 - [20]
 

2 Schools of thought on this.

1. Keep DD because it obsoletes the tactic of large numbers of crapships to take one down. Titans are very vurnerable to capitals, though Downside being that eventually someone will have eleventy billion titans and instapop capital fleets, even though this has never happened.

2. Turn DD into superweapon that can 1 shot capitals or do tons of damage to capitals. This would encorage people to drop from capitals to crapfleet ships and swarm titans with numbers. Still wont solve the situation of evelentybillion titans poping capitals fleets.

Seems that whatever solution you pick, supercaps > caps. Nothing wrong with that. But single target doomsdays just simply encorage capital pilots to switch to crapfleet ships.

Perhaps the solution is to use small numbers of high quality ships to take on titans.

Tharsgaard
Caldari
Fukd up Beyond all Reckognition
Posted - 2008.05.05 20:16:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: CCP Prism X
Stuff


What? Twisted Evil

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.05.05 20:34:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Verone on 05/05/2008 20:34:41
Originally by: Winterblink
Update T2 logistics to include a new ship which can project an anti-DD shield. Each race's counteracts a rival faction's DD effect.

Gallente <-> Caldari
Amarr <-> Minmatar

*shrugs* Never seen it suggested before, though I don't have time to read the gazillions of threads on the subject. :)



Actually that'd be a sweet bonus to add to flagships based on the hulls of T2 Tier3 Battleships...

... hmmmm.

baltec1
Posted - 2008.05.05 20:44:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Tharsgaard
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Stuff


What? Twisted Evil


Prism X is building one of these

Princess Jodi
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.05 20:45:00 - [24]
 

The simple way to limit Titans is to have an Upkeep cost associated with them.

Set it so that the Insurance and Legal bills from all the planets getting Tidal-Waved as a Titan passes through the system costs the alliance 25 Billion Isk / Month. If not paid, the Titan goes inert and cannot be boarded.


Oh, and to spice things up...the Titan becomes lost in space so anyone finding it can pay the bills and reactivate it. Laughing

ArmyOfMe
Hysera.
Posted - 2008.05.05 20:49:00 - [25]
 

nothing wrong with titans and doomsdays imo.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2008.05.05 20:56:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Lord WarATron
Perhaps the solution is to use small numbers of high quality ships to take on titans.


It wouldn't work against an alert opposant, and you know it. It's like all the fancy theorycrafting about having a second fleet to assault a titan after the first one absorb the doomsday. It sound good on paper, but anyone trying it is going to be spanked.

In the battlefield titans are generally escorted by carriers/motherships that will stop anything short of a BS superblob or capital blob. If the enemy had time to assemble such a fleet, you know it (spies, scouts, etc...) and assemble your own fleet, and soon there's so many peeps in system that lag make the engagement too hazardous to happen.

Titans having the choice between anti-swarm and anti-cap doomsday bring the worst of both worlds, imho. It may take them some time to switch between weapons, but it gives them a polyvalence they don't need, since they're already too potent in the battlefield.


Alz Shado
EverFlow
Posted - 2008.05.05 21:07:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Alz Shado on 05/05/2008 21:27:41
Problems as I see it:

-Titans are big, expensive OMGWTFBBQ-Solomobiles, stress on the Solo.
-For what they do (kill lots of little ships) they do great. What they don't do (fleet combat) they suck.
-Any solution against a titan's DD is trumped by ... a second titan's DD.
-For all their glory, Titans are actually all-or-nothing gambits, whereas the enemy dies, or you do. So bring two, just to be safe.

The solution as I see it:

For ships as big and as important as Titans, support fleets should and must be required. Not just for protection, but to make them useful. A support fleet should be *required* for the Titan to do it's job. A reasonable defense should be allowed against Titans, and a counter to such defense should NOT be MOAR Titans. Finally, they should be given a reasonable chance of survivability should the initial attack be thwarted.

Change the Titan/DD mechanics as follows:

1) DDs may only affect the same number of ships as are in the Titan's pilot fleet in system. If the titan pilot has a flet of 50, and he DD's a gate where 100 frigates wait, then only 50 frigates feel the effect. The ships affected by the DD are random. Explain this by requiring the targeting mechanism of the DD to "borrow" the processing power of it's fleet. Damage output remains the same, except against capital ships which take 10x damage.

2) Because the targeting of the DD is based on the ships in fleet, it does not affect ships in it's fleet. Friendlies, neutrals, and hostiles that are NOT in the fleet are all fair game.

3) When a DD is detonated, there is a 60-second infinite point warp-scramble and Cynojam applied on the grid. Neither the Titan, it's support fleet, nor the enemy may warp or jump in or out. Only gates may still be used. This is to give both sides a minimum chance to adjust logistics accordingly, due to the lag created by the popping of dozens (or hundreds) of ships. After the 60 second cooldown the titan may warp (if not scrambled by a HIC) but may not cyno until the current timer expires. Having support on-grid at this time will be critical to a Titan's survival.

4) Motherships can fit an anti-DD field that cuts DD damage by 50% to any ships within 15km of it, but does not protect the MOM itself. The mothership must be in triage mode to activate this module, and requires fuel to operate. Two motherships that have overlapping fields do not offer any additional protection.

5) There may only be ONE titan on grid at a time. This is to prevent an alliance from using two or more DDs simultaneously, as well as forcing Titan pilots to maintain a home POS. Titan v. Titan warfare is just pointless anyway.

6) To help defend the titan, a special titan class of covert ops cloak may be fit that allows a Titan to warp while cloaked. However, the Titan's warp speed is reduced to .1 au/s while cloaked, and the cloak is detected by probes based on the titan's faction.

FireFoxx80
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.05.05 21:07:00 - [28]
 

I think the GS and BoB comments might make titans more interesting:


  1. Nerf DD even more reduce their damage, but also their cooldown period. Allow it to do less damage to ships,

  2. Introduce a second, targetable module easily capable of one-shotting capitals (and seriously damaging super-capitals), but again with a cooldown (think death-star).


Lsf
Posted - 2008.05.05 21:08:00 - [29]
 

The case in which they are most overpowered involves their use in conjunction with a cyno jammer. You need a large BS fleet to take one down and you cannot threaten the titan because you can't bring capitals into the system. Lacking a surprise attack in which the titan doesn't know to defend the jammer taking one down is virtually impossible.

Now defend that jammer with three titans so the BSes cannot DD tank. Letting titans configure as DDD or Death-ray doesn't really solve this issue. Any defensive titan in a cyno jammed system will have a DDD setup.

Borsek's Clone
Posted - 2008.05.05 21:09:00 - [30]
 

Call me an idiot, but I think a DDD should kill everything. Give it 1 billion damage for god's sake, its SUPPOSED to wipe the floor with everything!

It's like surviving a nuke... sure, you can survive it during the blast, but you're gonna die a horrible death because of radiation poisoning anyway. So make the titans shoot DDDs in a few blasts, so they clean EVERYTHING, not even the supercaps should survive... except other titans.

Point is, if a titan comes in warp away or die. Yes, I DO know what I just said. BUT, when firing the DDD the titan should either use up an expensive piece of ammo or the whole DDD weapon. Why? If it destroys EVERYTHING it must somehow be penalized. Dunno, maybe the ammo should cost a few bill, like 2 bill per blast or smth. That would make titans good for the bigger alliances, it would make building a massive army of titans pointless as you couldn't keep up with the ammo usage, and it would make titans what they were supposed to be. Doomcarriers.


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