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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
Posted - 2008.05.06 10:19:00 - [61]
 

Edited by: YouGotRipped on 06/05/2008 10:19:56
Originally by: Jackie Fisher
What's that old expression about judging a person by his friends?


Those that have something in common gang up? lol
Tell me who your friends are so I can tell you who you are.
etc

Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.05.06 10:38:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: YouGotRipped

Those that have something in common gang up? lol
Tell me who your friends are so I can tell you who you are.
etc

Somebody not asking for others trust or ISK. Very Happy

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.05.06 11:10:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Jackie Fisher
What's that old expression about judging a person by his friends?

If a person cares about his name, he WOULDN'T be in goonswarm.

Riethe
Posted - 2008.05.06 11:18:00 - [64]
 

Look, there is only one thing that needs to be said in this topic:

If the business is secured 100% under EBANK, people will invest happily because most people have excess money laying around.

The only small percentage of people that won't invest under these circumstances are the individuals who believe they are too good to invest in a business that is related to a large organization of people, that consist of substantially wide-spread interests.

Beyond that, this thread is an unnecessary waste of attention whoring because some industrial moron thinks his corp is any more important than anyone else's.


TA

Haakkon
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.06 11:55:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Haakkon on 06/05/2008 11:57:04
Originally by: Riethe
Look, there is only one thing that needs to be said in this topic:

If the business is secured 100% under EBANK, people will invest happily because most people have excess money laying around.

The only small percentage of people that won't invest under these circumstances are the individuals who believe they are too good to invest in a business that is related to a large organization of people, that consist of substantially wide-spread interests.

Beyond that, this thread is an unnecessary waste of attention whoring because some industrial moron thinks his corp is any more important than anyone else's.


TA


I do think my corp is better than the others ;-)

I enjoy being a goon thoroughly.

100% secure IPOs make very little sense to me as if I have 100%, or 120% as has been suggested, there's very little reason for me to raise outsider money. And even then, there's an issue of what the collateral secures. The success of the venture, my honesty, and so on.

I'm a goon because it's a fantastic community of people to hang out with, if you're also a goon. I do not agree with my alliance's current policies on scamming. Several CEOs ago, scamming was a bannable offense because of this exact issue. I miss those times...

That said, I appreciate everyone's input and I will take it into thoughtful consideration in my business ventures.

I wish I could close this thread now.

Nielas
Posted - 2008.05.06 14:43:00 - [66]
 

Scamming is really a black and white issue. You either support the scammers or you are against them. If you are against the scammers then you would not be part of a group that supports scammers.

Haakkon
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.06 14:52:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Haakkon on 06/05/2008 15:11:58
Edited by: Haakkon on 06/05/2008 14:52:35
Originally by: Nielas
Scamming is really a black and white issue. You either support the scammers or you are against them. If you are against the scammers then you would not be part of a group that supports scammers.

I view it as a very grey issue. There are downsides to being in goonswarm - repuation, lack of trust, resentment and hatred from the rest of Eve, and there are the positives - Fun, friends, I'm well established there, it's profitable.

I personally don't support scammers and I think it's a shame that the greater goondom doesn't agree.

I'll liken this to real life -- if your country or government does something you fervently disagree with, do you move out of the country or do you try to elicit change from within? I'm trying to do the latter. I don't think goons will ever be liked or trusted, but I do see a future where being a goon doesn't mean you're written off by the rest of the Eve community.

Edit: Goons are kinda my e-family and I feel at home with them all. I feel a great deal of patriotism at being a part of Goonswarm. We've accomplished great things... we're just mainly jerks about it.

Tobin Shalim
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
Posted - 2008.05.06 15:13:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Tobin Shalim on 06/05/2008 15:13:17
if Goons would provide a 15% monthly IPO, i'd invest in it.

sure, it carries with it a certain inherent amount of risk that i lose all my invested isk in a scam, but really, that's true of just about every IPO that comes into existance.

the risk is always there, but i'd be willing to take it to ream massive profits on thier venture.


edit: i am not a Goon, have never been affiliated with Goons, am not a Goon alt.

Nielas
Posted - 2008.05.06 15:14:00 - [69]
 

In Real Life there is a lot of grey areas. However, EVE tends to be a very black and white world. When it comes to trust you either trust someone or you do not. In the game we lack the many social tools we have in RL that allow that grey area where it comes to trust. If you trust someone in EVE you have to trust them 100% because you have no insurance in case they betray you. There is not 'social collateral' that prevents most people in RL from committing fraud.

The question of identity is also severly different in EVE than it is in RL. In EVE alts and multiple accounts mean that trusting in an individual person is a toss up. They could behave completely diffent when playing their alts.

You are essentially saying that people should trust YOU and not Goonswarm. However, in EVE we cannot really know who YOU are. Further you want us to trust that you exist in a grey area of Goonswarm behaviour where you support some parts of their behaviour but not others. However, in EVE we cannot actually insure that you are on the 'right' side of that grey line so we either commit one way or the other.

Kiki Arnolds
Caldari
Allied Caprican Heavy Industries
Posted - 2008.05.06 15:27:00 - [70]
 

I have nothing against goonswarm, I find it entertaining that they were killing hulks, that they kill freightors. I think the crusade against BOB was a noble cause. Hell, I even think the way they scam is funny.

When it comes to my money however, I would NEVER invest in a goon run venture (absent 100% security). Its almost impossible to detect a good scammer, you have to take every little hint and run with it. If anything flags them you stay away. Being a member of an alliance that supports scamming anyone who isn't a member is a HUGE red flag.

I don't like BOB, what they do, or what they stand for. However if a member of BOB was running a reasonable IPO I would consider investing, because they domn't have a reputation for scamming etc...

Investing should not be about politics, all you should consider is risk vs. reward. That is what most of the people who are saying they wouldn't invest are doing.

Haakkon
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.06 15:39:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Nielas
post


You raise some very very excellent points and I'm afraid I don't really have a counter. Eve, though similar in many ways to RL, is not RL. It does not have the same societal pressures that enforce honesty as in Real Life.

In the coming months I might crosspost earnings reports from my goon company here. Perhaps I'll need some non-goon financing in the future, in which case I'm not sure what else I can ask besides to give me a chance.

Nielas
Posted - 2008.05.06 19:25:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Haakkon
Originally by: Nielas
post


You raise some very very excellent points and I'm afraid I don't really have a counter. Eve, though similar in many ways to RL, is not RL. It does not have the same societal pressures that enforce honesty as in Real Life.



There is actually one 'social pressure' that still exists to a certain extent in EVE: peer pressure in a player's corp. While some people tend to jump corps on an almost daily basis, many people will develop strong social bonds within their corps that they will not risk losing. As such the strongest deterrant against questionable behaviour is in this game is that your corp will disown you. It's a highly imperfect deterrant but it is the best we have in EVE.

This works against you in that with Goonswarm's reputation for allowing scammers, even that slim protection is removed.

Segge Bolled
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.05.07 00:56:00 - [73]
 

I think Nielas has made yet another excellent point.

My own question for Haakkon is this:
Originally by: Haakkon
In the coming months I might crosspost earnings reports from my goon company here.


What exactly do you really hope to realistically achieve by doing that? I would have thought that you'd just run into the exact same situation as Sophie in that other thread, to which this one is somewhat related.

Haakkon
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.07 04:55:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Haakkon on 07/05/2008 04:58:22
Originally by: Segge Bolled
I think Nielas has made yet another excellent point.

My own question for Haakkon is this:
Originally by: Haakkon
In the coming months I might crosspost earnings reports from my goon company here.


What exactly do you really hope to realistically achieve by doing that? I would have thought that you'd just run into the exact same situation as Sophie in that other thread, to which this one is somewhat related.


I expect to be met with skepticism, denial, and potentially some mockery. But weve got to start somewhere. And even if we're derided as scam artists or what-have-you, I feel that this is a start in the right direction, and i hope to pursue it in the face of whatever adversity I may face.

Basically, my goal here isn't investment capital (currently goon isk has me well stocked). My goal is to have reasonable, non-trolling conversation with the greater business community.

I hope to learn a thing or two about how everyone else works, and while I'm at it, hopefully provide a little bit of insight into Goon culture and perhaps show you that not every single one of us is cold-hearted and evil.

Segge Bolled
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.05.07 06:30:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Segge Bolled on 07/05/2008 06:31:03

Well, while that sounds a fair enough ideal to reason for it, I think you'll find that enough of you are indeed "cold-hearted and evil" (and known for it) to the point you'll fail miserably in most of those ambitions.

Just, you know, saying. Good luck with it, though. You're going to need it ...

Roger Welco
Caldari
WhiteGlaze Interstellar Inc.
Posted - 2008.05.07 09:45:00 - [76]
 

As a poster has already said, any investment carries risk. From my point of view from any IPO that is put up I will take a look at a weigh up the pros and cons of it. Sure a Goon related IPO, may have more risk from the reputation that they have in eve, but it may be still worth the investment like any other IPO. Also like any other IPO the isk I invest would be a risk, and if I lose one that I would take a hit on, but not one that would hurt that much.

Never invest more then you can afford to lose.

And besides it be nice to get some isk back from back from them to cover the loss of ships due to them
Laughing

Fivel Ve
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.07 12:08:00 - [77]
 

No i would never invest in any goon unless i personally knew him/her.
The reason being is that members of GS do not really care about their reputations as has been proven on many occasions. They also have this in-group culture that leads them feel superior to other players in EVE who are not part of GS. This does not apply to all members I bet, however it's the majority. Since there is a great chance that you, a random goon that i do not know, are a part of this majority that has been scamming "pubbies" and even making vids of it and not caring for their rep i seriously see no reason to trust you.

Imperius Blackheart
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.05.07 12:33:00 - [78]
 


Heh, funny thread this. I've resisted posting until now, but unlike most i'd probably give Haakkon a chance.

When I made my first investment in eve IIRC it was in ISS or FIN and I only invested a couple of hundred million to begin with, once trust had build up I became more confident and now hold tens of billions in shares and bonds in both public and private corps. I'd probably start small in any investments run by goons but I wouldn't avoid it totally.

Like it or not Goons are a massive powerhouse in this game, and have their shadier elements but its not like its a secret, and could it really be different than ISS was when it comes to politics? :P

It would depend on how serious the goon running the IPO would be I've met and known stupid goons silly goons and smart "serious business" goons, it would take time to build up trust in the marketplace and the name would be a stumbling block for many, however running several smaller bonds/projects to build up the trust to run a big one might work.

I think that the investor market for the most part in Eve is hungry for more businesses to put their money into, I know I am, and any goon run project would have the benefit that competition atm is pretty none existent.

tl;dr version : Yes i'd invest in a goon business probably ~500 million or so to begin with until trust is build up. Would need a "serious business" goon.


Selene D'Celeste
Caldari
The D'Celeste Trading Company
ISK Six
Posted - 2008.05.07 22:21:00 - [79]
 

Haakkon, I just wanted to publicly thank you for carrying over the discussion I was trying to start in the other thread, and running with it. I think that the opinions of the different viewpoints have been made clear at this point, some quite valid, and others ridiculously extreme. I've learned a lot from this thread, hopefully someone else can say the same too.

YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
Posted - 2008.05.07 22:46:00 - [80]
 

Edited by: YouGotRipped on 07/05/2008 23:28:45

It was a pointless thread, we knew certain things all too well. However someone has a lot of nerve to come here and ask for a confirmation.

Timaios
Cruoris Seraphim
Exalted.
Posted - 2008.05.08 11:09:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Haakkon

100% secure IPOs make very little sense to me as if I have 100%, or 120% as has been suggested, there's very little reason for me to raise outsider money. And even then, there's an issue of what the collateral secures. The success of the venture, my honesty, and so on.

<snip>

That said, I appreciate everyone's input and I will take it into thoughtful consideration in my business ventures.



The only reason I could see for 100% secure IPO would be establishing yourself as a reliable entrepreneur. Naturally after one successful IPO you might be able to launch a new one with perhaps 50% security and slowly build up the reputation to a point where the ISK paid out by previous IPOs exceed the value of the new IPO you are going to launch - meaning that if you are a scammer and want to run away with the money, you'd have done better (ISK-wise) by not making public IPOs in the first place.

That said, with proper 3rd party supervision I might be tempted to invest a small amount of ISK into a goon-run IPO. (I've been shooting and been shot at by goons since 2006 when they took Scalding Pass, mind.)

Haakkon
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.08 12:11:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Timaios
Originally by: Haakkon

100% secure IPOs make very little sense to me as if I have 100%, or 120% as has been suggested, there's very little reason for me to raise outsider money. And even then, there's an issue of what the collateral secures. The success of the venture, my honesty, and so on.

<snip>

That said, I appreciate everyone's input and I will take it into thoughtful consideration in my business ventures.



The only reason I could see for 100% secure IPO would be establishing yourself as a reliable entrepreneur. Naturally after one successful IPO you might be able to launch a new one with perhaps 50% security and slowly build up the reputation to a point where the ISK paid out by previous IPOs exceed the value of the new IPO you are going to launch - meaning that if you are a scammer and want to run away with the money, you'd have done better (ISK-wise) by not making public IPOs in the first place.

That said, with proper 3rd party supervision I might be tempted to invest a small amount of ISK into a goon-run IPO. (I've been shooting and been shot at by goons since 2006 when they took Scalding Pass, mind.)


I love Scalding Pass :-) But PvP aside (I love PvP), I'm not looking for investment right now, just some conversation and Dialogue.

Sophie's RSKY venture though has me very interested, and currently outperforms my company by a large margin. If anyone sells RSKY shares on the open market, they're probably a good buy as long as the seller isn't just trying to scam you.

Idaeus
Posted - 2008.05.10 12:40:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Timaios
That said, with proper 3rd party supervision I might be tempted to invest a small amount of ISK into a goon-run IPO. (I've been shooting and been shot at by goons since 2006 when they took Scalding Pass, mind.)

You know what's funny? Best way to insure that anything of this nature is NOT a scam is to get other goons (or our allies) to invest in it. We have rules against scamming goons and blues, and practically all of us genuinely enjoy GoonFleet, so the chances of someone going **** goons over spacebux is very slim. (I'd wager the chances of it happening are actually less then other public investments.)

Nielas
Posted - 2008.05.10 15:49:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Idaeus
Originally by: Timaios
That said, with proper 3rd party supervision I might be tempted to invest a small amount of ISK into a goon-run IPO. (I've been shooting and been shot at by goons since 2006 when they took Scalding Pass, mind.)

You know what's funny? Best way to insure that anything of this nature is NOT a scam is to get other goons (or our allies) to invest in it. We have rules against scamming goons and blues, and practically all of us genuinely enjoy GoonFleet, so the chances of someone going **** goons over spacebux is very slim. (I'd wager the chances of it happening are actually less then other public investments.)


Yeah but what if all you goons are in on the scam? So if the IPO is a scam you are only scamming outsiders and inter-Goonfleet rules do not apply.

In the end it still boils down to whether an investor will use 'guilt by association' as a factor in their risk assessment.

Idaeus
Posted - 2008.05.10 16:18:00 - [85]
 

Getting laughs at the expense of others is a short lived joy.

Getting space rich, buying expensive toys and blowing people up is a long term joy.

Ortos
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2008.05.10 18:39:00 - [86]
 

I'm not really much of an investor, but if I were to invest. Im sorry, it would not be in anything affiliated with the word goon or swarm. Especially not a combination of the two.

It cant be that hard to find money within goonswarm can it?

mynnna
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.12 21:00:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Ortos
I'm not really much of an investor, but if I were to invest. Im sorry, it would not be in anything affiliated with the word goon or swarm. Especially not a combination of the two.

It cant be that hard to find money within goonswarm can it?


Not everyone gets into investing in general, why would it be any different within the alliance? ;)

Meleil
Posted - 2008.05.12 21:20:00 - [88]
 

I would invest in a goon business the same way I did with FRPB. Throw a tonne of cash in, profit for a couple months then pull out richer than before. It matters not who runs the business as long as I get profits and can pull out when I want. Wink

Shar Tegral
Posted - 2008.05.12 21:37:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Meleil
I would invest in a goon business the same way I did with FRPB. Throw a tonne of cash in, profit for a couple months then pull out richer than before. It matters not who runs the business as long as I get profits and can pull out when I want. Wink
What a distinctly unrelated/uninformative statement. (?!?!?) The above quote is stating what you hope to be the final conclusion from investing and, well, I've never met anyone that invests in the hopes of losing their money so you are not saying anything insightful.

So the question, of this thread, is not how you would invest in a Goonswarm connected IPO but why would you do so. Or are you saying that the reason you invested in FRPB is the same reason you would in Goonswarm?

Mind you I have nothing specifically negative to say about Goonswarm itself, economics related or not, but if I did invest in GS IPO it would most definitely not be for the same reasons I would, or did, in FRPB.

Mips Nig
Posted - 2008.05.12 23:32:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Mips Nig on 12/05/2008 23:32:21
Originally by: Shar Tegral
So the question, of this thread, is not how you would invest in a Goonswarm connected IPO but why would you do so. Or are you saying that the reason you invested in FRPB is the same reason you would in Goonswarm?


The only reason I would invest isk into a goonswarm IPO is to make isk. It's the only reason I invest in Eve. I don't invest so I can post here and feel all warm and fuzzy for it. Isk. I Don't care who runs it as long as Isk flows into my wallet. oh**** YARRRR!!


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