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Kis Kecheri
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2008.05.05 20:17:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 05/05/2008 20:19:48
Edited by: Kis Kecheri on 05/05/2008 20:18:25
Originally by: Takimi Star
I am probably going to be torn a new one for this, but since I am new, can someone explain to me what is so bad about someone having a GS tag that would make them have almost zero chance of getting an IPO off the ground?


Feel free to join any public channel, like say, recruitment, and you will find multiple goons baiting people into scams.

Search for goon scams on this forum and wade through the chapters of goons not only openly admitting to scams but encouraging it amongst their members.

If you need a more dramatic example of their treatment of people who are stupid enough to trust them, watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs_LeeWuXN8

YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
Posted - 2008.05.05 20:21:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: YouGotRipped on 05/05/2008 20:24:52

Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: YouGotRipped
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 05/05/2008 17:17:24
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
I might depending on the venture and having ebank handle the funds so one of the directors can act as an auditor.



Post with your main or don't post at all.



Kazzac has posted on these forums since long before you or your original character did. The fact that you don't know that makes it even more ironic for you to post what you did.


Lol, how could I possibly know that? Goddamn I should have allocated more time to developing my clairvoyance skills if not reading past eve posts for breakfast.
One thing is sure though, he doesn't share your appetite for posting in every meaningless thread.

Zhecao Vai
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.05 20:29:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Mr Horizontal
What I'm trying to say is your allegiance to GS should be utterly irrelevant wrt RSKY other than for you being able negotiate getting raw moon goo out. That's all.


I agree with that, and as for the rest of your post, aren't you making lots of funny assumptions? How do you have any idea how stable or unstable Goonswarm "internal politics" are?

Of course, a moon-mining chain in 0.0 is risky, but that's why they're targeting (and approaching) 15% return, which is a lot more than pretty much any other IPOs I've ever seen around here.

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2008.05.05 20:30:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: YouGotRipped
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 05/05/2008 20:24:52

Originally by: Shadarle
Originally by: YouGotRipped
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 05/05/2008 17:17:24
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
I might depending on the venture and having ebank handle the funds so one of the directors can act as an auditor.



Post with your main or don't post at all.



Kazzac has posted on these forums since long before you or your original character did. The fact that you don't know that makes it even more ironic for you to post what you did.


Lol, how could I possibly know that? Goddamn I should have allocated more time to developing my clairvoyance skills if not reading past eve posts for breakfast.
One thing is sure though, he doesn't share your appetite for posting in every meaningless thread.



And yet despite that fact he still has more digestible and meaningful content than you.

...fancy that

YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
Posted - 2008.05.05 20:37:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: YouGotRipped on 05/05/2008 21:12:34


Originally by: Kazzac Elentria


And yet despite that fact he still has more digestible and meaningful content than you.

...fancy that


Yes, it takes a certain mindset to enjoy what Shadarle posts. I cannot lower myself to that.

So, you were saying that:

Originally by: Kazzac Elentria

I might [invest] depending on the venture and having ebank handle the funds so one of the directors can act as an auditor.



Please elaborate. There is a slim chance that we might be thinking in the same way about implementing security.

Mr Horizontal
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.05 21:00:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Zhecao Vai
I agree with that, and as for the rest of your post, aren't you making lots of funny assumptions?


Not really, after engineering the financing for similar operations, I'd say I'm pretty spot on. Wink

Originally by: Zhecao Vai
How do you have any idea how stable or unstable Goonswarm "internal politics" are?


Because if I didn't it wouldn't be too wise an idea to fly with them? You might want to check my alliance, I'm pretty cool with Goons as a player, but as an industrialist I'm not.

Originally by: Zhecao Vai
Of course, a moon-mining chain in 0.0 is risky, but that's why they're targeting (and approaching) 15% return, which is a lot more than pretty much any other IPOs I've ever seen around here.


The point I was trying to make is that for a lot more trustworthy alliances than GS, they've not set up their chains in 0.0. So for GS to do it in light of this, is absurd.

And, yes, while 15% while a good figure to promise, it makes no odds whether it's in 0.0 or lowsec, given the operations I've engineered turnover double that.

Qaedienne
Posted - 2008.05.05 21:04:00 - [37]
 

"Would you consider investing in an openly Goon business? I say "openly" because running ventures through alts is not hugely problematic, but it's something I'd rather not do."

No.

Now, a question for you: Is there any practical reason for a non-Goon to invest in Goons?

Haakkon
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.05 21:14:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Qaedienne
"Would you consider investing in an openly Goon business? I say "openly" because running ventures through alts is not hugely problematic, but it's something I'd rather not do."

No.

Now, a question for you: Is there any practical reason for a non-Goon to invest in Goons?

Yes, the same reasons one would invest in any business run by anyone else: profits.

Qaedienne
Posted - 2008.05.05 21:40:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Haakkon
Originally by: Qaedienne
"Would you consider investing in an openly Goon business? I say "openly" because running ventures through alts is not hugely problematic, but it's something I'd rather not do."

No.

Now, a question for you: Is there any practical reason for a non-Goon to invest in Goons?

Yes, the same reasons one would invest in any business run by anyone else: profits.


You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that?

You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it.

Thoran Karlien
Perkone
Posted - 2008.05.05 22:02:00 - [40]
 

Would you accept investments from bob members?
Knowing that the money you give them back will be used to further their war against you?

While I am certainly not a fan of quite a lot goon poster, there are a few that I'd trust their word at least in a specific area of their expertise.

So build up your reputation. Start a very small ipo, like building and selling shuttles in a goon outpost, don't cover it 100% with your money, and don't promise too good returns... have an independant trustworthy resident from md check your ipo, also while it is running.

Next go for a bit higher, but don't expect billions...

You will have a long road ahead, until people trust you enough to invest some worthwhile isk into you...

And another question... everyone can be brought... so how much isk would need to be trusted to you, for you to scam everyone and run with the isk?

Zhecao Vai
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.05 22:07:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Qaedienne
You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that?

You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it.


You are probably a homosexual, and even if you aren't, the products you produce may be used by homosexuals. So, what are you selling that overcomes such an awful thing?

Well, I sure hope you consider this major issue keeping me from investing in your business! Thanks in advance!

Thoran Karlien
Perkone
Posted - 2008.05.05 22:13:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Zhecao Vai

You are probably a homosexual, and even if you aren't, the products you produce may be used by homosexuals. So, what are you selling that overcomes such an awful thing?



If you try to help the op you are not doing it... if you try to be a typical goon poster as percieved by many you fail too... much too many words...


Qaedienne
Posted - 2008.05.05 22:14:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Zhecao Vai
Originally by: Qaedienne
You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that?

You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it.


You are probably a homosexual, and even if you aren't, the products you produce may be used by homosexuals. So, what are you selling that overcomes such an awful thing?

Well, I sure hope you consider this major issue keeping me from investing in your business! Thanks in advance!


Thanks for helping make the point.

Zhecao Vai
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.05 22:22:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Qaedienne
Originally by: Zhecao Vai
Originally by: Qaedienne
You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that?

You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it.


You are probably a homosexual, and even if you aren't, the products you produce may be used by homosexuals. So, what are you selling that overcomes such an awful thing?

Well, I sure hope you consider this major issue keeping me from investing in your business! Thanks in advance!


Thanks for helping make the point.


Is the point that your post is four sentences worth of name-calling? You're welcome. I was worried you wouldn't get it.

Thoran Karlien
Perkone
Posted - 2008.05.05 22:29:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Zhecao Vai
Is the point that your post is four sentences worth of name-calling? You're welcome. I was worried you wouldn't get it.


Many think that it is exactly that name many goons try to achieve...
Which shows how hart it will be for other goons trying to make themselve a diffrent name.

Haakkon
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.05 22:32:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Haakkon on 05/05/2008 22:36:29
Edited by: Haakkon on 05/05/2008 22:35:41
Edited by: Haakkon on 05/05/2008 22:33:01
Originally by: Qaedienne
Originally by: Haakkon
Originally by: Qaedienne

Now, a question for you: Is there any practical reason for a non-Goon to invest in Goons?

Yes, the same reasons one would invest in any business run by anyone else: profits.


You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that?

You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it.

Well, I'm not even selling anything right now. I'm just exploring the possibilities.

What is the primary issue? So far, what I can tell is that most people have a problem with me being a Goon. My gooniness will not change if I come back on some unaffiliated alt, it's a part of who I am. I've been posting in the Something Awful community for a loooong time, and I don't intend to leave the friends I've made in that time.

As for managing risk... I have no problems submitting to impartial third party audits should I decide to go non-goon with my investments. I believe in transparency in a business even if i'm not doing the best of jobs (and I make mistakes like every other entrepreneur).

What other issues do you see with goon run business compared to a non-goon alt business?

Originally by: Thoran Karlien
Would you accept investments from bob members?
Knowing that the money you give them back will be used to further their war against you?

Yes.
Originally by: Thoran Karlien
So build up your reputation. Start a very small ipo, like building and selling shuttles in a goon outpost, don't cover it 100% with your money, and don't promise too good returns... have an independant trustworthy resident from md check your ipo, also while it is running.

I currently run a goon-only investment company with current net assets of about 32 billion isk.

Originally by: Thoran Karlien
And another question... everyone can be brought... so how much isk would need to be trusted to you, for you to scam everyone and run with the isk?


I feel that nothing I say will be able to reassure you. However, I currently do a lot of the logistics work for Goonfleet and could easily leave with a substantial amount of isk if I decided to. So I guess the answer to that would be "more than I'll realistically ever have in my own company"

Edit: Also, Zehaco - please don't post in my threads unless you have something constructive to say. That goes for anyone name calling also. If you think I'm being dumb, please call me out on it, but please don't troll my threads.

Thoran Karlien
Perkone
Posted - 2008.05.05 22:56:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Haakkon

I feel that nothing I say will be able to reassure you. However, I currently do a lot of the logistics work for Goonfleet and could easily leave with a substantial amount of isk if I decided to. So I guess the answer to that would be "more than I'll realistically ever have in my own company"


You will have to try to convince me and others that you won't scam them. That you won't scam your own alliance is generally expected. I rarely hear of goons scamming goons, but goons scamming "pubies"... ...
Originally by: Haakkon

Edit: Also, Zehaco - please don't post in my threads unless you have something constructive to say. That goes for anyone name calling also. If you think I'm being dumb, please call me out on it, but please don't troll my threads.

Distancing yourself from trolls is a nice move. But I certainly doubt you can expect investments in the 10's of billions on the first ipo you launch.

One way I can see how you could get a few people outside investing is by having a substantial amount invested from inside goonswarm and placing a check to make sure you either have to scam all, or scam none at all... although i am at a loss atm how such a check could look like.
And there will still be people who won't invest no matter what, because there are some negative feelings attached to the name.
But if we sell weapons in RL, why not invest in a good solid ipo if there is a profit in it?

Due to your openness in discussion though, I would already "invest" up to 5 million in you, simply because I value good threads even if it turns out to be a scam. That sum can certainly rise, if you show you are trustworthy. Check DragonRiderTao for a percieved scammer who proved everyone wrong.

Kaaii
Caldari
Kaaii-Net Research Labs
KAAII-NET
Posted - 2008.05.06 00:00:00 - [48]
 



I would make it my mission in EVE, with my 5 years of play, trading expertise, and sizable resources, to utterly destroy any venture you attempt to undertake...

but thats just me..


cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2008.05.06 00:06:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Zhecao Vai
Originally by: Qaedienne
You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that?

You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it.


You are probably a homosexual, and even if you aren't, the products you produce may be used by homosexuals. So, what are you selling that overcomes such an awful thing?

Well, I sure hope you consider this major issue keeping me from investing in your business! Thanks in advance!


Thanks for helping prove the point about GS reputation.

Sorry to the OP and Sophie Daigneau with the other business, because the above comment has just gone to prove the fact that no one in here will ever invest ina GS business. I certainly won't now.

Nothing else to say. Everyone can move along to more pressing matters!

Zhecao Vai
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.06 00:44:00 - [50]
 

Hey, just one more post, which is a little more serious -- sorry, Haakkon, I don't want to bother your potential investors, but I doubt I'm making a difference.

Originally by: cosmoray
Sorry to the OP and Sophie Daigneau with the other business, because the above comment has just gone to prove the fact that no one in here will ever invest ina GS business. I certainly won't now.

Nothing else to say. Everyone can move along to more pressing matters!


This post seems to really distill the popular sentiment here, which is at the center of this post, too:

Originally by: Qaedienne
You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that?

You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it.


Once you look past the name-calling, here's the content:

"I don't like you, and I don't like your friends. I'm not supporting you because I think you and your friends are lousy, and boy, I hope nobody else does either."

There's nothing you can do to change that guy's mind, unless you and your friends collectively sit there being real nice to him and giving him presents until he likes you. There's no audits you can perform, no realistic securities you can provide, that will convince him.

Folks in this thread specifically agree to take it one step further; they would literally rather you go make an alt, come back, and lie your pants off to them about who you actually are to get their money, rather than invest their money into an otherwise-solid business that is run by (or even "produces products that will be used by!") someone they don't like. That seems bizarre to me, but maybe I just value money more than some folks.

In the end, the lesson I see is: For 90% of people, presentation is everything, and the only thing. I would keep that in mind if I were looking for money.

Segge Bolled
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.05.06 01:21:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Segge Bolled on 06/05/2008 01:22:48
Originally by: Zhecao Vai
Originally by: Qaedienne
You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that?

You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it.


You are probably a homosexual, and even if you aren't, the products you produce may be used by homosexuals. So, what are you selling that overcomes such an awful thing?

Well, I sure hope you consider this major issue keeping me from investing in your business! Thanks in advance!


Right ... anyway - The point I see here is the potential invester base does seem fairly hostile - you're not dealing with invester confidence alone, you've also got to take into account the degree of invester approval (or lack) of the "brand name" of the business (Individual operators aside, this is ultimately going to be the Goonswarm itself) and from what I can see GS isn't wildly popular outside of GS itself.

In this case it'll be very much like asking a militant Green group to invest in selling brown coal to China via bulk export - simply put, many people will feel it is ... unethical? - to intentionally invest their ISK into anything that is tied into Goonswarm.

To return to the original questions,

1) No.

2) Not Applicable.

3) Not Applicable.

Nebuchadnezzar I
Art of War
Cult of War
Posted - 2008.05.06 01:54:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Nebuchadnezzar I on 06/05/2008 02:00:13
Considering the recruitment scams, although you legitimate them by the "they are morons not understanding to apply through official channels" - i very much doubt so.

EDIT: And i guess general goon rep, doesnt help either, that rep is what you guys wanted anyway i assume and why it'd have to be a pretty risk free AND potentially very rewarding deal before i'd even considering dealing with a GS member - including ex GS really.

You can use an alt fine i guess, everyone does it.

Qaedienne
Posted - 2008.05.06 03:52:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Zhecao Vai
Hey, just one more post, which is a little more serious -- sorry, Haakkon, I don't want to bother your potential investors, but I doubt I'm making a difference.

Originally by: cosmoray
Sorry to the OP and Sophie Daigneau with the other business, because the above comment has just gone to prove the fact that no one in here will ever invest ina GS business. I certainly won't now.

Nothing else to say. Everyone can move along to more pressing matters!


This post seems to really distill the popular sentiment here, which is at the center of this post, too:

Originally by: Qaedienne
You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that?

You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it.


Once you look past the name-calling, here's the content:

"I don't like you, and I don't like your friends. I'm not supporting you because I think you and your friends are lousy, and boy, I hope nobody else does either."

There's nothing you can do to change that guy's mind, unless you and your friends collectively sit there being real nice to him and giving him presents until he likes you. There's no audits you can perform, no realistic securities you can provide, that will convince him.

Folks in this thread specifically agree to take it one step further; they would literally rather you go make an alt, come back, and lie your pants off to them about who you actually are to get their money, rather than invest their money into an otherwise-solid business that is run by (or even "produces products that will be used by!") someone they don't like. That seems bizarre to me, but maybe I just value money more than some folks.

In the end, the lesson I see is: For 90% of people, presentation is everything, and the only thing. I would keep that in mind if I were looking for money.


Whether you realize it or not, hundreds of people have been scammed out of money by Goons. They have taken their grievances to Goon management, who said "Good." Your alliance scams, and supports scamming. Are you not aware of this? Have you not read any of the dozens of posts, BY GOONS, regarding this?

It's not name calling, it is calling a spade a spade. Now, when someone from an alliance that supports scamming asks "How can I get some of that crazy IPO money?", that little ****ing issue has to be addressed. By the person looking to get financing, not the people who don't want to get fleeced.

It's not the MD board's job to figure out how Goons get public financing to work, it's up to Goons.

And stop crying about being treated poorly for being a Goon. You're not being treated poorly, you're just being treated as a Goon.

Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
Posted - 2008.05.06 04:28:00 - [54]
 

Heh, following all this I've got one thing to say.

go read "The Boy Who Cried Wolf"

Take particular note of the part at the end which says "Nobody believes a liar, even when he's telling the truth".

In much the same way that I don't affiliate with Goonswarm and thus, remove the chance to have possibly a very enjoyable experience in 0.0, you affiliate with Goonswarm and remove the chance of ever running a successful IPO (remembering if it's kept within Goonswarm, it's still not an IPO, since it's not public).

Guess what everyone is trying to say is yeah, you would have a lot better chance of taking an unknown alt and lying your ass off to get a business running. That's much less risk than *publicly* investing in Goonswarm. Bearing in mind that alt would be incapable of securing anything more than single-digit billions.

Jinx Barker
Caldari
GFB Scientific
Posted - 2008.05.06 04:31:00 - [55]
 

Since you asked for a sensible explanation:

Considering how Goons have behaved, and are behaving in EVE; the Alliance, and thus Controlling Entity, authorized and sponsored scamming - I believe that any true Goon Venture is handicapped from an honest entry into the IPO community.

I would not invest into Goon Run venture, I am very conservative when it comes to spending large quantity of ISK, and I am very risk conscious, as such I do not believe Goons represent a viable risk.

The only way I would invest is if I had 100% collateral in my pocket - an impossibility of course in any IPO. So, no dice for Goons.

Best of Luck.

Tommy Meow
Posted - 2008.05.06 04:35:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Zhecao Vai
Originally by: Qaedienne
You're not any other business. You are probably a scammer, and even if you aren't, the products you produce will be used by scammers. So, what are you selling that overcomes that?

You don't come across as a serious business person when you refuse to even consider the main issue that will keep people from investing in your business, let alone propose a solution to it.


You are probably a homosexual, and even if you aren't, the products you produce may be used by homosexuals. So, what are you selling that overcomes such an awful thing?

Well, I sure hope you consider this major issue keeping me from investing in your business! Thanks in advance!



Bolded the "Authentic Goon" parts.... I am sure you are helping the cause of Goons everywhere, they are now completely vindicated in EVE populace eyes, and it was absurd for any of us to ever doubt that a Goon can be anything but a Goon, well done mate, well done indeed.



Qaedienne
Posted - 2008.05.06 04:55:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Qaedienne on 06/05/2008 05:11:28
Edited by: Qaedienne on 06/05/2008 05:06:34
"What is the primary issue? So far, what I can tell is that most people have a problem with me being a Goon. My gooniness will not change if I come back on some unaffiliated alt, it's a part of who I am. I've been posting in the Something Awful community for a loooong time, and I don't intend to leave the friends I've made in that time."

Your alliance openly scams. Your loyalty to Goonswarm isn't an issue here, the scamming part is.

And an unaffiliated alt would only work against you. Any public business venture of significant size will require an auditor, and the auditor would be required to report to investors if there is a heavy Goonswarm presence in the venture (assets, markets, mains, etc...) because, as I said, Goonswarm scams. If the investment community found out that Goonswarm members were seeking capital under alt characters, they'd assume the worst.

"As for managing risk... I have no problems submitting to impartial third party audits should I decide to go non-goon with my investments. I believe in transparency in a business even if i'm not doing the best of jobs (and I make mistakes like every other entrepreneur).

What other issues do you see with goon run business compared to a non-goon alt business?"

Normally, you'd start with small investments and build up credibility, but that's not going to work in your case. People will just assume you're biding your time waiting for the big score.

The only way I see GS ventures working with public capital is if someone outside GS handles the cash and assets. Even then, you'd probably still have to start small and work your way up.

Edit - Also need to add, a lot of people will not invest in your enterprises under any circumstances, because you are GS. My question of "Why should an outsider invest in GS" was something you will need to answer before you will appeal to the majority of the investment community. There are inherent political, and even ethical, issues for prospective investors of any GS venture. That's not something the usual public business venture has to deal with, but you will.

SonOfAGhost
Minmatar
Minmatar Munitions and Tactical Assets Repository
Zzz
Posted - 2008.05.06 05:04:00 - [58]
 

Edited by: SonO***host on 06/05/2008 05:42:34
Originally by: Haakkon
Originally by: YouGotRipped

Post with your main or don't post at all.

I find this extremely ironic as I'm posting with my main and I was told to come back with an alt.


Even more ironic when you realize that the troll is not just an alt, but an alt of an alt.

Oh, and Laughing @ "openly Goon"

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.05.06 09:28:00 - [59]
 

No, it will never happen. I would rather invest in Riethe or Ufail.

Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.05.06 09:31:00 - [60]
 

What's that old expression about judging a person by his friends?


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