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Haakkon
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.05 12:59:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Haakkon on 05/05/2008 12:59:38
I am a goon. I do a lot of business. I like making ISK.

Currently most of my business is conducted entirely within Goonswarm, and any lesser empire business is conducted through alts.

I'm considering starting several ventures open outside of goonswarm, but I'm not sure how feasible it is considering our notoriety.

So I have some questions for you, the MD community, that I hope you will answer for me.

  • Would you consider investing in an openly Goon business? I say "openly" because running ventures through alts is not hugely problematic, but it's something I'd rather not do.


  • If so, would you demand additional safety measures in order to invest?


  • What kinds of safety measures? Please, practical suggestions only. I can not run everything out of chribba's wallet.

Richard Kitan
United Space Republic Research
Posted - 2008.05.05 13:14:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Haakkon

  • Would you consider investing in an openly Goon business? I say "openly" because running ventures through alts is not hugely problematic, but it's something I'd rather not do.




Speaking only for myself; No way, no how.

cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2008.05.05 13:27:00 - [3]
 

I don't think any member of Goonswarm will get a successful IPO off the ground in MD.

So I assume plan B will be rolled out, that ALTS of GS members may try.

I would advise that IF GS members want to launch a business, it will have to be completed via a collateralized loan from a bank or similar institution.

On a side note, I have noticed that you have suddenly been posting in many of the threads in this forum. One piece of advice you can not build an MD rep in a week!

Haakkon
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.05 13:32:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Haakkon on 05/05/2008 13:33:52
Originally by: cosmoray

On a side note, I have noticed that you have suddenly been posting in many of the threads in this forum. One piece of advice you can not build an MD rep in a week!

Yep. I know. Truth be told I didn't even know this forum existed until I heard about the RSKY stuff. It looks pretty interesting though, and I get bored at work, so I post.

Any sort of non-goon financial venture I run will be no sooner than several months from now. Right now I'm just trying to gauge what kinds of obstacles stand in my way for this.

Edit: Currently I've got my hands full with another IPO (that is limited to within goonswarm), so I don't anticipate wanting or needing any more investment for the near future.

Robacz
Essence Enterprises
Posted - 2008.05.05 13:36:00 - [5]
 

I think you have more chances with nameless alt tbh. Your alliance is building certain image for quite some time and this image is not compatible with public money.

However, if you could get someone trustable (non GS) to vouch for you, I would consider the investment.

100% security is another way, but useless for you.

Haakkon
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.05 13:41:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Robacz
I think you have more chances with nameless alt tbh. Your alliance is building certain image for quite some time and this image is not compatible with public money.


This is sadly true. I love playing internet spaceships with goons, but sometimes it's really annoying.

Originally by: Robacz

However, if you could get someone trustable (non GS) to vouch for you, I would consider the investment.


Who would fit this bill?

Originally by: Robacz

100% security is another way, but useless for you.

How would 100% even be possible?

Sophie Daigneau
CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society
Posted - 2008.05.05 13:46:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Robacz
I think you have more chances with nameless alt tbh. Your alliance is building certain image for quite some time and this image is not compatible with public money.

However, if you could get someone trustable (non GS) to vouch for you, I would consider the investment.

100% security is another way, but useless for you.


Not to sidetrack the lively discussion in my other thread, but you are saying that I had gotten a trusted representative from MD to thoroughly audit my corporate information, and then posted my results via a shell corp on a non-goon affiliated alt, then you might invest in me?

As for the 100% security, as far as I can tell, the recent IPO done by Proton Power(sorry for dragging you into this btw) also does not have any security built into it.

cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2008.05.05 13:48:00 - [8]
 

This can be completed via a loan froma bank or private lender. You can also provide collateral when you launch an IPO, and if it fails the holders/trustees will liquidate the collateral and disperse the money to the shareholders.

You put up collateral with a trusted party (Ebank is good), and you pay interest on your loan or dividends for IPO's. When debt is paid or IPO closes you get collateral back.

You will raise the money quickly if you provide over 100% collateral. You will get less money if partial collateral is provided.

You will also have to pay higher returns for zero collateral, and probably a premium for being in GS.

As a guess, a GS IPO will require at least 80% collateral and a return exceeding 8% per month. Most people will probably only except 100-125% though. You have been warned!

cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2008.05.05 14:00:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Sophie Daigneau
Originally by: Robacz
I think you have more chances with nameless alt tbh. Your alliance is building certain image for quite some time and this image is not compatible with public money.

However, if you could get someone trustable (non GS) to vouch for you, I would consider the investment.

100% security is another way, but useless for you.


Not to sidetrack the lively discussion in my other thread, but you are saying that I had gotten a trusted representative from MD to thoroughly audit my corporate information, and then posted my results via a shell corp on a non-goon affiliated alt, then you might invest in me?

As for the 100% security, as far as I can tell, the recent IPO done by Proton Power(sorry for dragging you into this btw) also does not have any security built into it.


That is simply because Proton Power has a great reputation, and that can be worth a lot. People are willing to invest into a person with a proven track record, who doesn't scam, who pays returns.

Sceondly the shell corp route might work, but you still need to find someone who audits you that "WE" accept. If they make the wrong call they are ruined.
You may find auditors hard to come by. An auditor will want keys to all ALTS and mains, so the GS allegiance will come out.

IMO, an non-audited, no-rep, unknown "SHOULD" never again raise about more than 2-5B (no collateral) on these forums due to the vast amount of scams. This forum works hard to find ANY issues with potential IPO's, and non answering of questions, surly attitude will kill any IPO in 2 secs.

Robacz
Essence Enterprises
Posted - 2008.05.05 14:23:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Robacz on 05/05/2008 14:25:04
Originally by: Sophie Daigneau

Not to sidetrack the lively discussion in my other thread, but you are saying that I had gotten a trusted representative from MD to thoroughly audit my corporate information, and then posted my results via a shell corp on a non-goon affiliated alt, then you might invest in me?


I meant someone with good reputation vouching for you. If this someone came here and said: "I know Sophie, she is trustable business(wo)man and I doubt she would ever scam.", then I would probably invest.

Who should be that person? Well, it hasn't be MD regular, but it should be someone who has my trust or at least respect... you mentioned Proton, so lets use him as example - if he said the above, I would most likely invest. Audits are nice, but they only prove that your business exists, besides I am much more interested in IPO holder's personality than his accounting.

Originally by: Sophie Daigneau
As for the 100% security, as far as I can tell, the recent IPO done by Proton Power(sorry for dragging you into this btw) also does not have any security built into it.


PP has great history of successful businesses, besides I did some trades with him even before IPOs came to scene. I know he can make money and (based on my past experience) I don't believe he would scam. Thats enough for me to risk few billions.

cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2008.05.05 15:23:00 - [11]
 

I have changed my mind about this.

At present a GS member has about 5% chance of raising any ISk via the MD forum. If Sophie doesn't provide some more proof that her business is legitimate, then GS IPO's will be ABSOLUTELY dead here.

YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
Posted - 2008.05.05 15:30:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: YouGotRipped on 05/05/2008 16:00:25

Originally by: cosmoray
I have changed my mind about this.

At present a GS member (any member???) has about 5% chance of raising any ISk via the MD forum. If Sophie doesn't provide some more proof that her business is legitimate, then GS IPO's will be ABSOLUTELY dead here.


5%? No more, no less? I am impressed.

I can only assume you used a variation of Drake's equation to have arrived at that precise figure.

You have a curious nature Cosmo and the thought that there is a slim chance of you being intelligent causes you to overwork yourself.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs_LeeWuXN8

I have stumbled across a nice video in which a guy is lured into thinking he could join GS only to have his carrier ganked upon warping to cyno.

Haakkon
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.05 15:39:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: cosmoray
I have changed my mind about this.

At present a GS member has about 5% chance of raising any ISk via the MD forum. If Sophie doesn't provide some more proof that her business is legitimate, then GS IPO's will be ABSOLUTELY dead here.


I feel certain that at some point Sophie will earn your trust. He's pretty personable and very sharp. He was instrumental in helping me get my goon IPO going.

I'm not really sure what I have in mind yet for public investments. Most of my business is very Goon-service-oriented, so I'm not sure how much the average Eve player would be interested in it.

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by me.

Mr Horizontal
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.05 15:51:00 - [14]
 

The only way a business can have GS involved is if the business is almost entirely independent of GS, and just has GS as a supplier.

For example, if the IPO is a reaction chain, then that reaction chain would have to be in the business that's IPO'd and set up in an empire lowsec system, NOT in GS-sov 0.0 space. However, GS moon goo can be shipped to the IPO as a supplier and then the involvement of GS is limited to one aspect. This also means the IPO can then choose other suppliers for it's moon goo and cut out GS if it so pleases.

Either way, the IPO cannot use the GS name in any name other than just a supplier. And if you're unwilling to prove to MD that you wish to disassociate yourself, MD would be unwilling to invest in you.

As far as GS works as an internal economy that is fine, but keep it internal. The minute you want public outside ISK flowing in, then you have to be independent.

Think of becoming independent as a gesture to MD to gain trust.

Sophie Daigneau
CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society
Posted - 2008.05.05 16:07:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Mr Horizontal
The only way a business can have GS involved is if the business is almost entirely independent of GS, and just has GS as a supplier.

For example, if the IPO is a reaction chain, then that reaction chain would have to be in the business that's IPO'd and set up in an empire lowsec system, NOT in GS-sov 0.0 space. However, GS moon goo can be shipped to the IPO as a supplier and then the involvement of GS is limited to one aspect. This also means the IPO can then choose other suppliers for it's moon goo and cut out GS if it so pleases.

Either way, the IPO cannot use the GS name in any name other than just a supplier. And if you're unwilling to prove to MD that you wish to disassociate yourself, MD would be unwilling to invest in you.

As far as GS works as an internal economy that is fine, but keep it internal. The minute you want public outside ISK flowing in, then you have to be independent.

Think of becoming independent as a gesture to MD to gain trust.


From a business perspective, what you propose is ludicrous. GS lets my mine their moons for a modest rental fee. GS space is also relatively peaceful outside the main warzones. Doing the reactions in 0.0 where I'm mining the raws makes a lot of sense since I save on towers and logistics nightmares of multi-system chains.

I'm a proud member of GS and have no qualms posting with my main. You will not see me dissociate myself in anyway from GS. GS has a large and vibrant market, one that has many opportunities to exploit. By ignoring this market this community is losing out on some of the best returns for your isk around.

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2008.05.05 16:07:00 - [16]
 

If it depends on the stability of GS internal politics in any substantial way, I doubt many people are going to be interested. If you can provide a decent level of collateral, you won't have problems finding investors.

Ideally, get a 3rd party audit done (preferably via api keys) and go into as much detail as you can when describing your plans to the auditor (who need not disclose any commercially sensitive data, but can then report on the perceived viability of the plan). I'm busy at the moment, but I'm sure there are plenty of other people who'd be happy to do this.

Daallie
Posted - 2008.05.05 16:17:00 - [17]
 

I would have to agree with Robacz on this. You would do much better using an alt. Simply building up your alts reputation here and you are looking at a higher likelyhood of a possible IPO.

But quite honestly trying from some kind of loan from a bank would be much more likely than raising money here, given that would also require that you provide 100% collateral at least (collateral is nice on MD but not an IPO requirement, just a recommendation).

But ya GS reputation is kind of in the gutter...for the kind of stuff that ripped posted (video).

Brisco Smiley
Peppermint Bay Trading Company
Posted - 2008.05.05 16:30:00 - [18]
 

Personally, I would expect money laundering to produce the best results. Anyone aware of the goon mission would not invest in even an apparently sound business which flew the goon flag. An obvious alt would likely be treated without prejudice (requiring only collateral sufficient for an unknown character). A sophisticated investors would find out it was a goon in sheep's clothing, but would also know that true goons scam for the drama, not for the isk.

I expect the GoonSwarm brand cannot be anything but a liability in this forum. I do think, though, that an alt with backing ignoti et quasi occulti could get a fair shake.

Cheers,

Brisco Smiley

SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
Posted - 2008.05.05 17:10:00 - [19]
 

For me this comes down to what the alliance represents. GS has made no bones about doing things the directly effect the industrial side of EVE. Gank Freighters, go on HULK killing rampages etc. Although you could say they are promoting ship sales, this is a direct slap in the face by a big openly abrasive alliance.

Even if you didn't do any of those and all you did was supply WCS's to the fleets you're personal image is directly effected by your association with a not so reputable alliance. Like someone said "I think you'd have a better chance with a nameless faceless alt.

You have a hard road ahead of you, but if you take the trip you'd become one of the more trusting figures in the public. The reason, because against all odds and adversaries you grained the trust and respect of people outside of your alliance affiliation.

Do that and people will throw ISK at you when you mention the words, New IPO.

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2008.05.05 17:13:00 - [20]
 

I might depending on the venture and having ebank handle the funds so one of the directors can act as an auditor.

Mr Horizontal
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.05 18:20:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Sophie Daigneau
From a business perspective, what you propose is ludicrous. GS lets my mine their moons for a modest rental fee. GS space is also relatively peaceful outside the main warzones. Doing the reactions in 0.0 where I'm mining the raws makes a lot of sense since I save on towers and logistics nightmares of multi-system chains.

I'm a proud member of GS and have no qualms posting with my main. You will not see me dissociate myself in anyway from GS. GS has a large and vibrant market, one that has many opportunities to exploit. By ignoring this market this community is losing out on some of the best returns for your isk around.


It's not ludicrous because I know of 4 other 30+ faction tower reaction chains doing precisely as I mentioned, some with and some without outpost POS's in 0.0 mining the goo. Either way, the main reactions are all done in lowsec and sold close by in empire. Some then further use these to make components and T2 items and resell the items back in the 0.0 thus maintaining the market out there, but this is a secondary business to the main reaction chain. And their profits make RSKY's look like a joke. You should be looking at ~30% total income in relation to your outlay, per month.

The savings in fuel you have under sovereignty is the only benefit you have by staying 0.0, but these are so negligible that when factored into the whole return of the operation they are less than 1%. Especially as you can mine the ice out there or hire miners out there for sub-empire prices and ship it out to fuel your empire towers. Thus making the sov fuel bonus more irrelevant.

As for the logistics - whether you're getting the raw material or the processed material out of 0.0 and into empire, it's the same proposition. Given your fleet of Jump Freighters this really shouldn't be a problem for you. Unless of course, you're selling the advanced materials within GS markets, in which case you're shooting yourself in your own foot by not making as much profit as you can.

Last but not least, you may think the space is relatively peaceful, but then again so is just about all 0.0 space outside the main throttle points. That's not the point, the risk of GS space being overcome (not nearly as hard as you might think), internal shenanigans happening within GS (highly likely), and the fact that the 0.0 political map can change in a matter of days means that without having a secure plan to minimise any loss to investors gives us 0 security on our cash.

So from a business perspective, this can't even be classified as high risk, it's off the scale! And without any backup plan should the POS's or space be attacked, investor cash will be lost. Nothing can mitigate this, and therefore by having the POS's in 0.0 it's uninvestable. Is that really worth it?

The point is it's not just about GS being the sov-owning entity, it's the fact you have your reaction chains in 0.0 in the first place that's the problem. Not even the most trustworthy alliance with full sov 4 can be invested into if this is the case.

What I'm trying to say is your allegiance to GS should be utterly irrelevant wrt RSKY other than for you being able negotiate getting raw moon goo out. That's all.

Haakkon
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.05 18:31:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: YouGotRipped
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 05/05/2008 17:17:24
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
I might depending on the venture and having ebank handle the funds so one of the directors can act as an auditor.



Post with your main or don't post at all.

I find this extremely ironic as I'm posting with my main and I was told to come back with an alt.

I find 0.0 to be a good forum for producing as it gives me a dread fleet to protect my investments, Sov 4 systems to react in, and a market with sell prices already higher than Jita.

Internal goon politics are more stable than you would think.

Sophie Daigneau
CAPITAL Assistance in Destruction Society
Posted - 2008.05.05 18:38:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Mr Horizontal
Originally by: Sophie Daigneau
From a business perspective, what you propose is ludicrous. GS lets my mine their moons for a modest rental fee. GS space is also relatively peaceful outside the main warzones. Doing the reactions in 0.0 where I'm mining the raws makes a lot of sense since I save on towers and logistics nightmares of multi-system chains.

I'm a proud member of GS and have no qualms posting with my main. You will not see me dissociate myself in anyway from GS. GS has a large and vibrant market, one that has many opportunities to exploit. By ignoring this market this community is losing out on some of the best returns for your isk around.


It's not ludicrous because I know of 4 other 30+ faction tower reaction chains doing precisely as I mentioned, some with and some without outpost POS's in 0.0 mining the goo. Either way, the main reactions are all done in lowsec and sold close by in empire. Some then further use these to make components and T2 items and resell the items back in the 0.0 thus maintaining the market out there, but this is a secondary business to the main reaction chain. And their profits make RSKY's look like a joke. You should be looking at ~30% total income in relation to your outlay, per month.

The savings in fuel you have under sovereignty is the only benefit you have by staying 0.0, but these are so negligible that when factored into the whole return of the operation they are less than 1%. Especially as you can mine the ice out there or hire miners out there for sub-empire prices and ship it out to fuel your empire towers. Thus making the sov fuel bonus more irrelevant.

As for the logistics - whether you're getting the raw material or the processed material out of 0.0 and into empire, it's the same proposition. Given your fleet of Jump Freighters this really shouldn't be a problem for you. Unless of course, you're selling the advanced materials within GS markets, in which case you're shooting yourself in your own foot by not making as much profit as you can.

Last but not least, you may think the space is relatively peaceful, but then again so is just about all 0.0 space outside the main throttle points. That's not the point, the risk of GS space being overcome (not nearly as hard as you might think), internal shenanigans happening within GS (highly likely), and the fact that the 0.0 political map can change in a matter of days means that without having a secure plan to minimise any loss to investors gives us 0 security on our cash.

So from a business perspective, this can't even be classified as high risk, it's off the scale! And without any backup plan should the POS's or space be attacked, investor cash will be lost. Nothing can mitigate this, and therefore by having the POS's in 0.0 it's uninvestable. Is that really worth it?

The point is it's not just about GS being the sov-owning entity, it's the fact you have your reaction chains in 0.0 in the first place that's the problem. Not even the most trustworthy alliance with full sov 4 can be invested into if this is the case.

What I'm trying to say is your allegiance to GS should be utterly irrelevant wrt RSKY other than for you being able negotiate getting raw moon goo out. That's all.


Now I know...what it is....to be...trolled.

Shadarle
Posted - 2008.05.05 18:47:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: YouGotRipped
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 05/05/2008 17:17:24
Originally by: Kazzac Elentria
I might depending on the venture and having ebank handle the funds so one of the directors can act as an auditor.



Post with your main or don't post at all.



Kazzac has posted on these forums since long before you or your original character did. The fact that you don't know that makes it even more ironic for you to post what you did.

Brisco Smiley
Peppermint Bay Trading Company
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:28:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Haakkon
I find this extremely ironic as I'm posting with my main and I was told to come back with an alt.

Though I hope that having come first with your main, you would start with at least that in your favor. I believe there are already some well respected business-people whose alter-egos are widely known but never mentioned. Let me restate my opinion.

If you seek credit based on the reputation of your alliance, you may find your alliance's reputation ill-suited to requesting public funds. If you seek credit based on your personal reputation alone, you may find it easier to to run an apolitical venture without such a well-known, political moniker beneath your portrait.

Cheers,

Brisco Smiley

Haakkon
Gallente
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:40:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Brisco Smiley
Originally by: Haakkon
I find this extremely ironic as I'm posting with my main and I was told to come back with an alt.

Though I hope that having come first with your main, you would start with at least that in your favor. I believe there are already some well respected business-people whose alter-egos are widely known but never mentioned. Let me restate my opinion.

If you seek credit based on the reputation of your alliance, you may find your alliance's reputation ill-suited to requesting public funds. If you seek credit based on your personal reputation alone, you may find it easier to to run an apolitical venture without such a well-known, political moniker beneath your portrait.

Cheers,

Brisco Smiley

I agree. The reputation of Goonswarm is not a good one, and I have that working against me. I hope that through hard work and above-the-table dealings, I can convince people that not *every* goon is a dirty scammer.

That said, I love Goonfleet / Goonswarm and I have an amazing amount of fun with them, and I have a lot of friends in there. Abandoning my friends and my duties to my alliance just because it's politically unpopular for me to be a goon simply isn't an option for me.

Right now I'm not asking for money. I'm not asking for you to trust me. I'm not doing anything that would jeopardize your wallets. I am, however, asking for you to judge me on my words and not those of my alliance-mates.

Mr Horizontal
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:44:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Sophie Daigneau
Now I know...what it is....to be...trolled.


Shocked That's a first.

As a result I can only conclude you have no intention of protecting investors ISK and thus it's more than likely we'd never see it again. Therefore, I call scam. Good bye.

Takimi Star
Posted - 2008.05.05 19:54:00 - [28]
 

I am probably going to be torn a new one for this, but since I am new, can someone explain to me what is so bad about someone having a GS tag that would make them have almost zero chance of getting an IPO off the ground?

Brisco Smiley
Peppermint Bay Trading Company
Posted - 2008.05.05 20:06:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Takimi Star
I am probably going to be torn a new one for this, but since I am new, can someone explain to me what is so bad about someone having a GS tag that would make them have almost zero chance of getting an IPO off the ground?

It's not a bad tag, it's just very specific. It has a purpose, and that purpose is not "play nice."

Nielas
Posted - 2008.05.05 20:16:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Takimi Star
I am probably going to be torn a new one for this, but since I am new, can someone explain to me what is so bad about someone having a GS tag that would make them have almost zero chance of getting an IPO off the ground?


Anyone investing in an IPO has to trust that the person doing the IPO will not simply run off with the money. GS has a reputation of 'not playing fair' and of running scams. As such the 'credit rating' of anyone associated with them is pretty much in the toilet.


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