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Vox Pop
Posted - 2008.05.01 12:00:00 - [1]
 

Iím Vox Pop, the CSM candidate with only one issue on his mind: direct democracy in EVE.

Although I applaud the initiative of having the player-elected counsel, I think itís not enough. Thatís why, if I get elected, I will not follow my own ideas and opinions. Instead, I donate my vote on and voice in the CSM to the entire population of the EVE universe.

This is how it works: for every issue raised in the CSM, I will organise a public voting via the in-game browser (with an authentication check to prevent multiple votes from the same character). Everybody in EVE, whether you voted for me as a CSM member or not, will be able to participate in this public vote.

The outcome of that public vote will determine my stance in the CSM. Not only will I vote in the CSM as per the wishes of the majority of the EVE population, I will also defend the position of the majority, and try to convince other CSM members into following me.

I am well aware this is not the perfect model for direct democracy, but given the technical and legislative limitations imposed by both the game and CCP, I think itís the best I can do right now. If I get elected, at least 1 out of 9 votes and voices in the CSM truly belongs to all players.

Serenity Steele has kindly agreed to guarantee me and my candidacy.

If you have any questions, please post them here and Iíll try to answer them as clearly as possible.

Campaign site.

Kelsin
Dirt Dog Trading Company
Posted - 2008.05.01 12:45:00 - [2]
 

How will you handle raising issues before the council? Or will you only vote on issues raised by other members, and not raise any yourself?

Vox Pop
Posted - 2008.05.01 13:02:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Kelsin
How will you handle raising issues before the council? Or will you only vote on issues raised by other members, and not raise any yourself?


I will try and identify as much issues as possible before any CSM meetings. Some, brought up by the EVE community in the CSM forums, will be easy to get a vote on from the entire EVE populace before voting in the CSM will happen.

I agree that others might be difficult. Issues raised during the CSM meetings but not before will have to be carefully approached. As I envision it now, I will try to create the possibility for 'live voting' by the general public: voting taking place during the actual CSM meeting.

As I said before, it's not the perfect model, but I'm going to try and make it work in the best possible way given the limitations present. If there's one thing I'd like to try and get done, it's showing CCP that they can get player's input on important issues without the need for a CSM.

I hope this answered your question, Kelsin.

Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
Posted - 2008.05.01 15:00:00 - [4]
 

I confirm support for Vox Pop and trustee to ensure the voting mechanism described above will function as stated.



Arithron
Gallente
Gallente Trade Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.01 20:39:00 - [5]
 

I agree that others might be difficult. Issues raised during the CSM meetings but not before will have to be carefully approached.

Of course, issues will all be raised BEFORE meetings, as all topics must be on the CSM topic discussion thread for a period of no less than 7 days before they can be brought before council. They also must get a representative to support them, or get 5% of the playerbase (10k player support).

Take care,
Bruce Hansen

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.05.01 20:45:00 - [6]
 

A very interesting approach, do you have the voting system finished already?

Also, are you not concerned that the website might be hacked or otherwise abused, leading to tampering with the votes?

Vox Pop
Posted - 2008.05.02 06:48:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
A very interesting approach, do you have the voting system finished already?

Also, are you not concerned that the website might be hacked or otherwise abused, leading to tampering with the votes?


The voting system isn't finished yet no. And being a secure system is it's main requirement. The thing I don't know yet is the following: should I publish the code for the voting system, or not?

Publishing it will be in the spirit of my candidacy, and make everything transparent to people. But it might carry extra security risks as well.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated!

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.05.02 10:27:00 - [8]
 

publishing it would be better for transparency... but if you do you you'd better be damn sure the website is secure, or special interest groups might manipulate your vote.

Hamfast
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.02 14:32:00 - [9]
 

I have several questions, and taking a page out of Talkuth Relís book, I decided to ask each candidate in their own threadÖ

1) Invention Ė A good idea that still needs workÖ
a. Have you ever tried invention?
b. What ideas do you have to improve invention?

2) Pilot Security Level Ė Should it be more important?
a. (In High Sec) Ė Should Concord react faster if the victim has a higher security level? If the attacker has a lower rating?
b. Should the Security Level of a system affect changes to Pilot Security level changes?
c. Should the Security Level of a Targeted Pilot have more of an effect on the security change of the attacker?

3) Industry Ė The Creators of Eve
a. Do you regularly build anything?
b. Do you regularly mine?
c. What do you think could be done to improve industry in Eve?
d. You have been asked to help with new ships for industrial characters, describe a few ideasÖ

Vox Pop
Posted - 2008.05.02 15:49:00 - [10]
 

Thanks for the interest Hamfast. I see you have done a bit of thinking on issues yourself already.

As far as my candidacy for the CSM goes, it's actually quite irrelevant what my answers are to your questions. Me running for a seat on the CSM revolves solely around me donating my seat to the whole populace of EVE.

I don't want to confuse people with my opinion on anything else but direct democracy in EVE, so I'm sure you'll understand me not answering your questions.

Hamfast
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.02 16:22:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Vox Pop
Thanks for the interest Hamfast. I see you have done a bit of thinking on issues yourself already.

As far as my candidacy for the CSM goes, it's actually quite irrelevant what my answers are to your questions. Me running for a seat on the CSM revolves solely around me donating my seat to the whole populace of EVE.

I don't want to confuse people with my opinion on anything else but direct democracy in EVE, so I'm sure you'll understand me not answering your questions.


I expected this type of answer from both you and Yusra, but as you are candidates, I did not want to treat you differently then the others.

thank you for your reply.

Hykke
Free Imperial Vikings
Posted - 2008.05.03 21:26:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Vox Pop

Although I applaud the initiative of having the player-elected counsel, I think itís not enough. Thatís why, if I get elected, I will not follow my own ideas and opinions. Instead, I donate my vote on and voice in the CSM to the entire population of the EVE universe.



Actually I would like to vote for a candidate that has views that I can support. To me that is how representative democracy works. This way I won't really know what kind of changes I will be supporting (If the majority of players are PVP players, I will be supporting changes that benefit PVP'ers, if the majority of players are PVE, I will be supporting changes that benefit PVE.
Hey wait a minute, first I will vote for another candidate, that can represent me and my profession in the counsil and THEN if you get elected anyway, I will also vote for your voice in the counsil hmmm works for me Razz

Vox Pop
Posted - 2008.05.04 10:21:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Hykke

Actually I would like to vote for a candidate that has views that I can support. To me that is how representative democracy works.


True Hykke, that is how representative democracy works. My point though is that it would be very easy for CCP to create direct democracy. And that is what I would like to see, instead of the CSM as it is now.

Quote:
This way I won't really know what kind of changes I will be supporting (If the majority of players are PVP players, I will be supporting changes that benefit PVP'ers, if the majority of players are PVE, I will be supporting changes that benefit PVE.


And here you touch one of the major points of critique of direct democracy in favour of representative democracy. Is it better to have laymen decide on everything? Can Ordinary Joe make balanced decisions, taking into account all pros and cons? Or should we leave the decision making to trained professionals: politicians?

In real live, I tend to prefer representative democracy, with all its flaws. It's better for the common good, and protects minorities to a certain level.

The CSM though has no real power. CCP will use it as an advisory body only. Therefor, having a direct democratic vote into issues poses no threat to minority groups: the ultimate decision is still with CCP. If 0.0 PVPers form the majority in EVE, CCP still has the ability to easily disregard ideas which would improve the game for PVPers, but make it worse for other players.

So although what you say is true, and a vote for me will be a vote for the majority of EVE players and their opinions, this would not lead to majority-led decisions on the game. It would lead to majority-led advice to CCP.

Quote:
Hey wait a minute, first I will vote for another candidate, that can represent me and my profession in the counsil and THEN if you get elected anyway, I will also vote for your voice in the counsil hmmm works for me Razz


I am very aware of this flaw :) Therefore I hope my running for a seat on the CSM will make CCP aware of the possibilities they have for having no CSM, but direct player feedback. Whether I get elected or not.

Kali Burr
Posted - 2008.05.04 17:49:00 - [14]
 

I will be addressing each candidate with the same questions ableit it might be a little late:

1) What do you think about more PVE scenarios, ones which would incorporate a large section of the EVE universe. Perhaps like a war between the races, or a war against a different race. Perhaps it would be a war against a pirate corp where PCs are encouraged to come help out the fleet. This could allow players to get more of a feel in some way fleet battles as well.

2) Along the lines of the above statement, how would you feel if the EVE universe had a vote in how their races interacted. Perhaps in order to get users more involved the races would submit 'Resolutions' to the players on actions they take. Perhaps the Gallente Federation gives some offense to the Caldari State or vice versa, maybe the resolution to those that are members of the Caldari State would say something like, "Should the Caldari State retaliate with military force against system XYZ for said offense?". Then there could be some possible PVE event taken in that sector of space. The Caldari State can then give real-time missions to players who wish to participate be it material gathering, intelligence, combat missions, mercenary action, etc.

3) How would you feel about opening Invention to invent new items that they design, potentially completely new items to the EVE universe? I believe giving the players the ability to customize items and perhaps make something completely new would greatly increase their involvement and enjoyment of the game. This would introduce even more learning skills for those that want to do industry and allow them to decide how and what will improve ships. Perhaps even allowing researchers to invent totally new kinds of ships.

4) How would you feel if the EVE universe could start impacting in some way on 0.0? Pirates and alliances in 0.0 often have influence in Empire space and low sec, what if the tables were reversed? What if players in empire space could pass resolutions for the races to clear out temporarily portions of low sec, perhaps even attempt to clear out portions of 0.0? The idea here would not to attact home systems, but perhaps fringe systems. This could help introduce empire players to 0.0 and pvp, it could also help keep in check mega alliances and factions. In addition this could allow empire players the 'occasional' chance to get some resources in 0.0 if they aid the initiative.

5) Finally how would you feel about creating and opening events to all players and not just the wealthiest alliances in EVE? There could be many talented pilots out there that want to compete for fame and glory, but may not have the ISK to do it. Perhaps if EVE provided weekly/monthly tournaments around the EVE universe and then allowed the winners to compete in a bracket system up to a finale, it would encourage even more interaction. Instead of just giving some enormous prize once/twice a year, they could give smaller prizes for each stage of the contest leading up to the ultimage prize. These could also include side contests like 1v1/2v2/etc frigate/cruiser fights. Find out who the best 1v1 player is, or who the best tandem team is, etc.

Vox Pop
Posted - 2008.05.05 07:00:00 - [15]
 

Thanks for your questions Kali Burr. I'm afraid my answer will be the same as I had to give Hamfast above: As far as my candidacy for the CSM goes, it's actually quite irrelevant what my answers are to your questions. Me running for a seat on the CSM revolves solely around me donating my seat to the whole populace of EVE.

A small addition though:

Originally by: Kali Burr
(...) how would you feel if the EVE universe had a vote (...)


Of course, everything involving more player influence / feedback has my full support ;)

Hamfast
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.09 18:11:00 - [16]
 

Vox,

Question for you that is right up your ally... from the new blog:

Quote:
If 5% of the voters support a topic, the Council is required to bring it up. This is done to accommodate the voters, not the Council.


Will you add "Idea Polls" into your format to attempt to get the required "5%" for topics?

Kali Burr
Posted - 2008.05.10 21:16:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Vox Pop
Thanks for your questions Kali Burr. I'm afraid my answer will be the same as I had to give Hamfast above: As far as my candidacy for the CSM goes, it's actually quite irrelevant what my answers are to your questions. Me running for a seat on the CSM revolves solely around me donating my seat to the whole populace of EVE.

A small addition though:

Originally by: Kali Burr
(...) how would you feel if the EVE universe had a vote (...)


Of course, everything involving more player influence / feedback has my full support ;)


I actually find your answers and statements quite irresponsible and counterproductive. To say you would go with whatever the populace says doesn't actually help the populace whatsoever. Democracies through history have seldom worked well or provided the results people are looking for. The vast majority of the populace is not informed enough to make decisions. That is the purpose for representation. The populace votes for an individual they think will be best qualified to make decisions. Too often these days we the populace just vote on who we 'like' the best, or the candidate that says the right things or things exactly as we think. What the populace needs to do instead is vote for the candidates that actually know or are informed the best about the situations we care about. Thus I posed situations I care about and I think a large enough portion of the EVE universe cares about, and want to see how the representatives actually go about answering the questions. I immediately throw out individuals who: 1) give a honey-tongued yes man answer for my vote, 2) don't address the questions at all, 3) give some rote answer, that does not provide any feedback or information, or 4) say no outright without giving any informed reasons behind it.

To give up responsibility as you have here and say you are going to do whatever the public wants is the very reason I will not vote for you and would strongly encourage others also not to vote for you. Responsibility is a very important thing, and sometimes it requires you to go against the flow in order to do the right thing, or the best thing for everyone.

Vox Pop
Posted - 2008.05.13 06:58:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Kali Burr
Democracies through history have seldom worked well or provided the results people are looking for. The vast majority of the populace is not informed enough to make decisions. That is the purpose for representation. The populace votes for an individual they think will be best qualified to make decisions. Too often these days we the populace just vote on who we 'like' the best, or the candidate that says the right things or things exactly as we think.


Here you touch on the reason I'm running the way I'm running, by giving both the pro and con of representation as opposed to direct democracy. IRL, we should be voting for the person best fit for the job. But more often then not, that is not how it works. Direct democracy though is outright dangerous IRL, so we'll have to go with representation until somebody comes up with a better system.

In EVE, with representation much the same will happen. Do you really think the average EVE player will take the time to go through all candidates' programmes? Read all these forum posts? Of course not. They will vote whoever they know and like, or whoever their corporation / alliance / peer tells them to vote for. Which makes this CSM exercise just as bad as real-life politics.

That's why I want to offer an alternative with direct democracy. There's one very big difference with politics IRL: whatever the CSM 'decides', is not binding to CCP. It's an advice, nothing more. But instead of giving CCP advice from a board of likable characters / EVE moguls / alliance frontmen, they could just as easy take advice from the whole populace.

Whether or not all players can make informed decisions is irrelevant. We don't need them to make informed decisions, we need them to give their opinion, on every issue raised, when it is raised.

Joseph Blade
Minmatar
MediaCataclysm
Posted - 2008.05.14 09:43:00 - [19]
 

There are possible flaws with both implementations so far suggested.
If I choose an individual, that individual might not vote the way I prefer on all topics.
If I choose voxpop I might be in the minority sometimes on an issue and the vote wouldn't go as I prefer.

As a semi-democractic corp I prefer direct voting to creating an elected ruling class. The popular vote might carry the risk of being the uninformed vote, but this can be remedied by thoroughly discussing a subject / giving a space for advocates of all sides to put their cases forward.

MediaCataclysm will support VoxPop in this election.


 

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