open All Channels
seplocked Jita Park Speakers Corner
blankseplocked Candidates: The New Player Dilemma
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Author Topic

Reaver One
Southern Cross Empire
Posted - 2008.05.01 01:12:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Reaver One on 01/05/2008 01:13:25
I'll try to make this brief.

I'm four months into EVE. I love this game. Eve has amazing complexity, depth and challenge, with minimal hand-holding that tends to turn me off of other MMOs. Therein lies the rub.

I don't mind being scammed, podded and kicked around a bit. I figure it's just paying the dues, so to speak. I'm confident enough in my abilities so that I don't worry about setbacks so much, but this comes at a cost...time.

The amount of time and effort required to play this game (competitively) is pretty remarkable, and while I wouldn't have begrudged it when I was 20, now that I have two jobs, a family and a very limited amount of free time, I am seriously considering limiting my goals in EVE. This includes abandoning my notion of venturing out to 0.0, starting (or becoming instrumental in) a Corporation, and taking a pass on the crafting system altogether.

In addition, I have a very good friend (of over 25 years) that started playing with me, and it appears that he is losing interest in EVE altogether, even though he's as big an MMO fan as I am and we have played every MMO together since UO. The time required to become proficient in this game appears to be the reason he is thinking of retiring.

So here are the questions:

1. What kind of player is good for the game? Are my friend and I simply too busy or too old to be viable EVE citizens?

2. Is the loss of the older, more time-invested player damaging to the game overall, or is it simply inevitable?

3. Is there anything that you would do to help newer players not only acclimate to the game initially, but enable them to more fully participate in all aspects of the game without impacting the glorious complexity that is EVE?

4. Do you think that supporting organizations such as EVE University (an organization I, as a new player, found out about too late to join as a mere student and one that I hesitate to join as an instructor due to my lack of appreciable skills to offer at this point) with additional assets or tools (or some other form of compensation), as well as "official" status and/or mention in the help functions is viable? Would it be prone to abuse?

5. Do you have any other ideas or comments related to this issue?

Thank you in advance for your responses.

Kehmor
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.05.01 02:37:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Kehmor on 01/05/2008 02:37:23
I'm not a canidate but seriously, new players have never had it so good. I started out with ~80k skill points (yes 80k, not 800k) and a weak tutorial system. I mined for my first kestrel using a bantam that was grudgingly donated to me.

Reaver One
Southern Cross Empire
Posted - 2008.05.01 08:02:00 - [3]
 

I've heard the stories, and I'm sure it's better than it used to be. My question isn't really geared towards what you begin with, or skill progression, as much as providing additional informational resources to new players.

Eve has one hell of a learning curve (far steeper and longer than any other game I've ever played...and that includes a great many MMOs as well as other games such as X3, The Total War series, Sim City, etc. There is so much to learn to become even marginally effective that I think many players without vast quantities of time to spend climbing that slope are inclined to quit.

That may not be a bad thing in and of itself. Maybe EVE should be just what it is, an extremely difficult beast to master and not one for the masses...but I am merely wondering what the Candidates feel about the issue of exclusividity. Also, do they feel that something could be done from an educational standpoint to ease the transition.

I know that I have read manuals, forum posts and followed hundreds of links to articles and I'm still just scratching the surface here. I'm a fast reader and a quick learner, but the question remains whether I can afford to invest this kind of time in a video game.

So bottom line: should the future of this game be geared towards elite gamers with a great deal of spare time, or is there a way to facilitate the learning process for new players without giving them an unfair advantage or dumbing down the game?

align2me
Amarr
Fleeting Moments of Insanity
Posted - 2008.05.01 08:48:00 - [4]
 

An age-old question...

Many advocate and many vehemontly reject the concept of a skill planning tool integrated into the Eve Character sheet.

This tool would allow those with less time to spend playing, queue up their skills so that they don't have to log in constantly to meet the demands of the training schedule they wish to adhere to.

This would certainly relieve the burdon of a tight training schedule and I am an advocate.

With regards to training / educational material / easing the learning curve, I feel that there is simply so much available in terms of complexity within the Eve universe that to document this all in-game or even out of game would be near impossible. So this I think is less achievable unless CCP perhaps deliver a rewards package for people who write acceptable guides for specific areas of gameplay.

If Eve can implement and control this then perhaps they can structure the game environment to facilitate a "fast-Track" membership for people who have far less time to invest in the game.

I understand the problem and it is isolating a potentially large member base. I am sure there is a way that CCP can appeal to this valuable base.

Any other suggestions?

Slickdrac
Minmatar
M Takumi Research and Production
East Empire Trade Federation
Posted - 2008.05.01 18:25:00 - [5]
 

I'm no CSM candidate, but I like to throw my opinion around. My answers are in bold

Originally by: Reaver One


1. What kind of player is good for the game? Are my friend and I simply too busy or too old to be viable EVE citizens?

IMO, this game requires much more time investment than any other game, no matter what path you take in it, you have to research it as much as you can, otherwise you'll spend so long trying to figure things out for yourself, you'll burn out within the trial period, and if you don't ask questions the right way, or even if you do, the lowering maturity level in the help channels and the game in general will just serve to make you not want to ask anymore questions for fear of ridicule. Also, age is no real matter, I know people who are 8 and play this game and I know someone who is 68, it's more a maturity thing, so, the people that are mocking you in help channels, then have something bad happen to them, and they quit with a whinethread.

2. Is the loss of the older, more time-invested player damaging to the game overall, or is it simply inevitable?

Those are not mutually exclusive questions. Both are true, when the game loses one of it's "elders" those are the people that 99% of the time were helpful to the game and it's story development. When they leave, that's one less "strong arm" to silence the community and make them stop being idiots, which means more dumb threads, and more agitated Devs. But for the second part, everyone gets burnt out eventually. Everyone needs a break cause this game is a bit more of a lifestyle than other MMOs, the fact that the major corps/alliances have each other's number in case of an in-game emergency show's how serious some people take it, you can't be that serious about it for extended periods of time, or you go psychotic

3. Is there anything that you would do to help newer players not only acclimate to the game initially, but enable them to more fully participate in all aspects of the game without impacting the glorious complexity that is EVE?

There's a lot of help for newer players, they have their own help channel, they have a completely overhauled tutorial now, the only thing to prevent them from understanding this game is them, if they don't ask questions, or try to learn how to do things, that's their own fault. And there's nothing stopping them from taking part in any aspect of the game (except skills) they wish to, so I don't understand this question at all really.

4. Do you think that supporting organizations such as EVE University with additional assets or tools (or some other form of compensation), as well as "official" status and/or mention in the help functions is viable? Would it be prone to abuse?

That's more a CCP legal issue, they can't support any corps/alliances explicitly without a whole ****storm of trouble, same with apps like Evemon, EFT, etc. they can allow them, but they cannot support them

5. Do you have any other ideas or comments related to this issue?

Newbies are the best bees.


Thank you in advance for your responses.

you're welcome

Zrazhon
Posted - 2008.05.01 18:50:00 - [6]
 

Having been in EVE for less than week, it might seem that I have very little to base my observations on - and that would be true. However two things have struck me as obvious areas for improvement, that would make the players with other resposibilities than themself, like the OP and myself hang on longer and enjoy the game more.

1) Learning time is prohibitively long and cultivating fast learning is a chore in and of itself. Shortening learning time or making more of the "basic" skills low level would make it an achievable goal to get into low sec and help mix up the play - to the benefit of all I would guess.

2) More missions instead of the about 10 recyled missions pr lvl - would also make it more attractive to e.g. just sit down and play for an hour earning a little money - for those times when you have more time and want to go play around in 0.0 space.

And yes, some that have been in the game long, maybe even from the start, will remember "old times" when things where much harder... But I don't believe that should stop anyone from improving this game.
I belive, maing this game a little more accesible, the universe of the game would be even more populated and would be of benefit to all.

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.05.01 19:21:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 01/05/2008 19:21:24
I very often see players with your exact questions, Reaver. I'll try to answer them as best as I can.

1) All player styles are good in eve. If you have less time to play it is a bit of a hassle at the start when you still have a lot of skills to train that only take a few hours, but especially once you start to specialise you quickly hit skills that take days or weeks to train. You did correctly point out that you might have to adjust your goals. That is not to say you cannot be part of a corporation at all, but with limited time, holding a director position or going on 6+ hour operations is perhaps not viable. Manufacturing however is perhaps one of THE things that you can do well with limited time. Researching and building stuff takes time - time you can spend offline while your BPO's and BPC's do the work :)

2) Players leave the game all the time. Some because they've gotten bored, some because they dont have time. However, new players are joining constantly to fill the gaps. Sure they're not veterans yet, but they will be. Aside from that, this is just a natural part of an MMO populations evolution; we are not seeing more older, more time invested players leave the game than usual.

3) One suggestion I can make here would be for new players to join Eve University - and not just because its my corp. We see that players from E-UNI on average have a better skillbase, are more involved with the community (E-UNI graduates are more likely to end up in leadership positions) and stay with the game longer than new players who do not join the Uni.

Other than that, I'd suggest you take a look at the issue Improve new player retention on my campaign website.

4) I guess I'm biased here but I'm gonna take a shot at this question anyways.

First, we could use quite a few improvements to corporate management tools that would NOT give us (or any other corp) a tactical advantage, but would help us greatly in managing the corporation. Recruitment is a good example here. Every recruitment officer, as well as every director, always gets an evemail notification when someone applies to their corporation. Eve University gets approximately 40 applications every day. Imagine what this does to our inboxes. It would be nice if we had a simple option NOT to receive these evemail nofitications. In the same way, it would be nice to be able to automatically send reply evemails when someone applies. Now, my recruitment officers and me have to send about 300 evemails every week - by hand.

These are just a few examples of (mostly administrative) things that could be improved, while they would not affect game balance at all. And they would help everyone, not just Eve University.

Other than that, all I can say now is that other tools, assets or perks that would be supplied to the uni to help with our mission would be greatly appreciated, however it is also highly unlikely as CCP cannot be seen favouring one corporation over another; even if that corporation is Eve University. As for it any gifts being abused, knowing the Eve University directorate, I highly doubt that would happen.

And by the way, while recruitment is closed atm due to our war with the Privateer Alliance, exceptions can be made on our 8 week age rule, should you still wish to join as a student :)

Arithron
Gallente
Gallente Trade Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.01 20:09:00 - [8]
 

Being a new player on Eve is hard! I remember it all too well. Making ISK was difficult - I hauled soil and oxygen, 7k units at a time, 4 jumps between NPC stations...for about 3 months until I could afford a better cargo and hauler! Not that there is anything inherently wrong with this (I learnt the market very well), but I can see where more advice and help could have been beneficial. For instance, missions paid much better than trade initially...

I also made a mistake in training all learning skills to lvl 5 before training other things! This was because I didn't understand exactly how the skills worked, what was useful etc. I took a while to find Eve-o and the forums. I still speak to 2 year+ players who don't know they exist...

Essentially, joining a new player friendly corp, with helpful members, would have saved me some time (and isk). I now help new players whenever I can, with advice/isk/items (before I am inundated, I only give to those I offer, not those that ask!). Many other players also do this. Many players also accept new players and help them out with ships, items and help on missions etc.

Herein lies a dilemma:
A corp investing resources and time for a new player needs the player to get to a point where they start being able to help other new players in the corp. Invariably, new players stay in such corps until they can fend for themselves, then leave. This, I believe, prevents many corps becoming new player friendly. Corps that do accept new players might assign them tasks (so that even if they leave, they have at least covered their costs), such as mining. This assignment of tasks can be the reason a newer player leaves. It’s a hard problem to overcome. It’s an even harder problem to think of solutions for.

Some ideas:

A better starting wallet for new ACCOUNTS: this would stop players just making new characters and sending ISK onwards to main. Of course, trial accounts don’t get the bigger wallet. New players could then afford some better equipment to start them off.

A virtual PvP training system or two: Warp into a system in a shuttle (lock entry gate to system to shuttles only), dock at the local station where ships and fittings are free of skill requirements and cost. Fit your ship, undock and warp to the battleground…
Of course, exiting such a system can only be done in shuttles with zero cargo!

Some sort of Corp bonus: Corps that have a certain percentage of new characters that are active get some sort of Empire tax relief and rebates (maybe bonus refining/discount for station fees/lower NPC goods charges or some such).

Some higher protection: New players are often baited into opening cans, firing first etc. Perhaps a time-limited period from account opening whereby new characters killed in High-sec suffer NO financial penalty if they are destroyed by older account holders (older account holders being those outside this initial period eg, 1 month). For example, new player X is killed in his frigate due to opening a can, and is destroyed by the can owner. Player X finds himself in the nearest station, with his frigate docked up beside him. Of course, nothing is left in space to be salvaged from his destruction.

These are just some ideas up for comment. You may like my suggestions, have better ideas, or just see some gaping problems with them! Post away…

Take care,
Bruce Hansen

Reaver One
Southern Cross Empire
Posted - 2008.05.01 23:46:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Reaver One on 02/05/2008 00:29:58
Edited by: Reaver One on 02/05/2008 00:26:39
Some great replies, my thanks.

I can see that I phrased one of my questions poorly:

2. Is the loss of the older, more time-invested player damaging to the game overall, or is it simply inevitable?

When I said older, more time-invested I meant folks who had more RL commitments, not veteran players...perhaps a better translation would be:

2. If stressed-out old farts with two jobs like myself leave, is that bad for the game?

I'm not asking this to be stroked, I am sincerely curious as to whether someone like me who has 10 hours or so a week to devote to playing EVE is really a benefit to the playerbase at large? We surely matter as far as CCP's bottom line is concerned, but that's not my concern here, since I think that a happy playerbase makes a successful game.

In reply to Slickdrac, who said:

"There's a lot of help for newer players, they have their own help channel, they have a completely overhauled tutorial now, the only thing to prevent them from understanding this game is them, if they don't ask questions, or try to learn how to do things, that's their own fault. And there's nothing stopping them from taking part in any aspect of the game (except skills) they wish to, so I don't understand this question at all really."

The tutorial was adequate to get me up to speed. The help channel is occasionally useful, but usually...not. I'm not having any trouble at all making ISK, and I'm fine with waiting for my skills to pop...matter of fact I'd hate to see younger players get any more boosts to their training, since this is one of the great features in this game.

My real concern is that there are massive portions of this game (rules and systems-wise) that I not only do not understand, but probably don't even know exist. I'm an avid learner, and I could probably quote the rules of any other game I've ever played backwards and forwards in my sleep by month 4.

Some would call that a plus...keep the mystery and all that. I agree with that sentiment if you're talking about areas to explore, inventions to discover, goals to master. I'm talking about user-side game mechanics here.

I have yet to come across a functional comprehensive game "manual" if you will. Having a game this complex is great, but if it's impossible to ingest that complexity unless I'm willing to devote a quarter of my time trying to find the information that I need (or not even knowing that there IS, in fact, information that I need) isn't workable for me, personally. It would have been when I was 15, or 20, or hell, any time before I got married, but spending 4 of my 10 free hours a week in a quest for information isn't appealing.

That's pretty much why I'm curious about this dilemma, because I'm beginning to feel like perhaps that's a problem with MY personal schedule when it comes to this game. Other games I've been able to justify the learning process, since it represented tens of man-hours...but this game is going to require hundreds, and I just don't have them.

*edided twice bekaus spelleng is teh hard*


zoolkhan
Minmatar
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.05.02 07:58:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Reaver One

So here are the questions:

1. What kind of player is good for the game? Are my friend and I simply too busy or too old to be viable EVE citizens?


All kind of players contribute to the game. And trust me youre not alone with that dilemma.
I have a demaning job myself and increased family duties
(i forgot on what spacetrip my daughter happened, all of a sudden she was screaming from the cargo bay area, and i found myself talking to sebestior scientists about a noise limiter)

Originally by: Reaver One

2. Is the loss of the older, more time-invested player damaging to the game overall, or is it simply inevitable?


Fluctutation happens. I happens in Games, In workplaces, in Sports-Clubs
people come and people go. Circle of live , from birth to grave some people never shave.

Its inevitable that people get bored after a while - but viewing it from the other side:
eve-online is the game with the hightest stick-to-it- factor i ever came across in my
lifetime. I know so many people who are still here since beta (thats almost 5 years now, is it?) At least Hardin and myself are of that age in this csm competition here.

This should be viewed as a proof, this game has a long term motivtion - also for people who cannot invest as much time to it as they would like to. Things are slower, you reach your goal slower - but you eventually reach it anyways.

Originally by: Reaver One

3. Is there anything that you would do to help newer players not only acclimate to the game initially, but enable them to more fully participate in all aspects of the game without impacting the glorious complexity that is EVE?


That question is as old as the game in certain variations.
I think, ccp provided the save space 1.0 for those players who need to acclimate to the game.

The decision to leave this shield of safety is made by the player itself.

Since so much control is left with the players themself, the game is also more reflexting the true human nature in the game. Which includes arrogance, greed, hostility from day one as well as companionship & comradry, community and respect.

Should we take this element, that divides eve from the pink la la land MMORPGs
and enforce more protection from all outer influence that could possibly traumatize a beginner?

I see teh dilemma, my pesonal daily contribution to help rookies is that i treat them with the same respect as i treat the veterans. I answer their questions instead referring to a manual
and i coach them and prepare them for things to come within my corp.

This is the best way of helping a rookie on his first step, the best solution i have at this time. And i would encourage everybody to follow this example if not already doing so.

But frankly, i would not be here today - if eve would not have been challenging...

When i joined, there was no "battleships" yet. The max you could fly was a cruiser
we worked our asses of for one of these things and it took us week if not longer..
there was no veteran to teach us, and the help system was a joke compared to what we have now.

Historically things have improved a lot for the rookies.
(there was a time when you could out-smart concord in hi-sec and tank the sentries,
can you imagine that?)

Originally by: Reaver One

4. Do you think that supporting organizations such as EVE University (an organization I, as a new player, found out about too late to join as a mere student and one that I hesitate to join as an instructor due to my lack of appreciable skills to offer at this point) with additional assets or tools (or some other form of compensation), as well as "official" status and/or mention in the help functions is viable? Would it be prone to abuse?



I think the idea of a player driven "university" taht deserves more status and attantion
is a good one. Prone to abuse? I dont think thats a problem


 

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only