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blankseplocked Candidates: BACON ( + other local monitoring tools )
 
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Kagu Zuchi
Asgard Schiffswerften
Ev0ke
Posted - 2008.04.29 15:52:00 - [1]
 

It seems there is a lot of talk about BACON ( and other local monitoring tools ) I think it would be nice if all CSM's could post their opinion about these tools in this topic.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.04.29 15:54:00 - [2]
 

They will be gone before the 21th June, 2008.

That is my stance and prediction.

Demos Colodan
101st Space Brigade - Wings of Destiny
Utterly Harmless
Posted - 2008.04.29 16:07:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Demos Colodan on 29/04/2008 16:11:42
First of all, I guess CCP in person of Grimmi postet the point of view.
Nevertheless, future CSMs should keep this discussion/this problem in mind.

Personal statement:
It's a a mixed blessing. On the one hand, those guys, who have a disadvantage outta that execrate BACON, on the other hand, those guys who wanna do afk-mining are affected in their kind of gaming.
IMHO, all those things should be banned (regarding the minig-robot fact).

Max Torps
Nomadic Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.04.29 17:03:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Max Torps on 29/04/2008 19:37:55

Hi

Posts I've made about bacon can be found here so you can understand point of view:
Bacon ain't sizzling and here where I describe it as unbalancing and an evil application.

Although as others have noted, CCP have promised removal/rendered useless. I hope to see that actioned very soon and hope I'm not alone in that opinion.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.04.29 17:09:00 - [5]
 


BACON is bad for the game.
Fingers crossed CCP close the log-server data glitch that lets this program (and others like it) function.
If BACON is still around should I be elected of CSM I'll certainly be voting for this to be raised as an issue and condemned by CCP.


LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.04.29 17:12:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine

BACON is bad for the game.
Fingers crossed CCP close the log-server data glitch that lets this program (and others like it) function.
If BACON is still around should I be elected of CSM I'll certainly be voting for this to be raised as an issue and condemned by CCP.



Yep, exactly!

If it isn't fixed the first time CSM talks to CCP, i for one will make sure that CCP posts an update on what is going on. It needs to be fixed, and it needs to be fixed sooner rather than later.

Nickaelhoop
Minmatar
Concordance Extraction Corporation
Posted - 2008.04.29 17:14:00 - [7]
 

^ I fall under the same view of the two posts above me.

Jonhill Gallent
United Systems Navy
Unitary Enterprises
Posted - 2008.04.29 19:17:00 - [8]
 

I think the issue that BACON has raised is a deeper one than most realise. The issue blew up into a massive controversy ONLY after a particular group developed it and then publicly offered it to the community the fact is other groups had developed very similar tools to do the same job, but kept quiet about them (Notably GOONSWARM). CCP have acknowledged that they were aware of this use of the gamelogs but took no position or action on it until it became public. If the logs are encrypted to prevent their use (as CCP have said there is no easy way to monitor if such tools are being used) all someone has to do if they hack the enctyption is to keep quiet about it. I believe it was Kerion in an interview on EVETV at fanfest said that he knew there were more devs in the GOONS than some other alliances.

I believe to is the PRIMARY ROLE of the CSM to check that CCP maintain a level playing field for all and that their employees are prevented from gaining in game advantage using the internal affairs dept vigorously and pro-actively. I think the BACON affair has once again shown that CCP take the view if the player base don't know about an issue it isn't a problem. CSM members should be duty bound to hold them to account and prevent such things from happening again

MongWen
Xeno Tech Corp
Self Destruct.
Posted - 2008.04.29 19:27:00 - [9]
 

I am 100% against it, mostly due to the way that it uses the logserver log, and it will give an unfair advantage compared to the people that donít use it, and the shear possibilities that can be built into BACON (macro like behaviour can easily be added to the program).

I do not support BACON or any other program that uses unintended use of game/logserver logs.

Ankhesentapemkah
Gallente
Posted - 2008.04.30 12:21:00 - [10]
 

Reposting my post from this thread.

I'm against any 3rd party program that gives a significant advantage to its users compared to those that do not use the program. It basically forces people to use the program if they want to participate in the top levels of the game.

I know what happens if noone *****s down on this stuff, in Ultima Online it was compulsory to use programs that spammed movement requests to the server or make the client tick faster and thus send more movement commands, so your character would always run faster than those without the program. If you wished to participate in PVP, you had to have one of these programs. The staff never undertook action against those using the program, so it got completely out of hand, and now almost every PVPer there is using this trash. We don't want those situations to arise in Eve, thus for the good of all, the Bacon program and similar utilities must be blacklisted.

I understand that scrolling through the local channel isn't really a nice mechanic either, but if you want changes to the interface and feedback, then suggest them, so they become available for everyone when they are officialy implemented.

Breha Organa
Posted - 2008.04.30 17:35:00 - [11]
 

There was a thread on this topic to which I responded with my views.

In a sense, there are no locks that cannot be picked with regard to encryption of data. Hacking tools can search for the encryption key and apply it, thereby giving the user a workaround that would allow the use of BACON once again. So, there is no perfect solution, but there at least *is* a solution that makes it harder for unwanted access to sensitive log files.

There are larger issues here, but in my opinion, overall, this BACON issue is a primary example of "democracy in action". CSM is going to rely heavily on players bringing important issues to our attention, and articulating the justification for the alarm.

Bane Glorious
Ministry of War
Posted - 2008.04.30 17:46:00 - [12]
 

I responded to this same question posed by an EVE-Tribune interviewer, my answer below:

Originally by: Bane Glorious
From what I understand, BACON is a program that gives a sound alert if a neutral/hostile enters the system, detected by output from logserver.exe. This allows people to be less attentive to the game and go off and look at other things.

Using logserver data to make a macro is not new and has been used for at least a few years. If BACON didn't exist, people would just play EVE windowed and surf the internet with a non-maximized browser that still leaves local and the overview visible in the background, which would be basically the same thing. BACON is still technically a macro, but not nearly as malicious if you really think about it.

The real problem underscored by BACON is that it is too easy to create powerful macros from logserver output. How one could fix this I don't know, but I spoke with a guy who knows a little bit about coding and he said that encrypting the data could be possible, though I don't know myself.

One thing I should mention is that, at the time I wrote this, I was not aware that BACON makes a warning sound before a person even appears in local. That makes the problem much more imminent, since at that point BACON becomes a gameplay enhancing program not duplicable with the "non-maximized browser" technique mentioned in the quote above.

Breha Organa
Posted - 2008.04.30 18:01:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah


I'm against any 3rd party program that gives a significant advantage to its users compared to those that do not use the program.


In principle, I disagree with this statement wholeheartedly. The term "significant advantage" is vague and unspecific. EVE players need to be free to use programs that enhance the enjoyment of the game, and even provide a tactical advantage.

The line should be drawn when 3rd psrty software manipulates the data stream, accessing data that is not intended for the players' use or interferes with the "normal" operations of the game.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.04.30 18:08:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: LaVista Vista on 30/04/2008 18:08:15
Originally by: Ankhesentapemkah

I'm against any 3rd party program that gives a significant advantage to its users compared to those that do not use the program.

There's 2 kinds of programs:
1. Things which automates certain things, depending on in game events
2. Things which provide you information, based on other means

BACON Falls in under the first category. And i agree, it shouldn't be allowed.

But the secondary kind of third party application isn't problematic. You can easily argue that it can give a significant advantage to some people. But you have to be smart in order to use the information properly.

I'm sorry, but the smartest person will ALWAYS have an advantage. And i think that eve should take Darwin's ideas about the survival of the fittest, to an even higher degree.

Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
Posted - 2008.04.30 20:59:00 - [15]
 

Xeno at EvE-Tribune asked a similar question with responses from many candidates.

My position on BACON is pretty clear:

I do NOT support the specific implementation of the BACON functionality, that gives individual/groups of players an advantage in use of the game-client for playing EvE. (Another case in point: beetracker)

I fully support tool development initiatives that push CCP to address shortcomings in EVE's User Interface (ie. Sound notifications),

A tool as powerful as BACON should be in the game-client or not available. All players or no players. Particularly considering <20% of players read the forums, so would not be aware of it's existence.

The question of relevance of notification of people in local is up for debate; and it the larger debate of "showing people in local."


Hamfast
Gallente
Posted - 2008.04.30 22:03:00 - [16]
 

Quote:
Greetings,

The LogServer output is solely intended by CCP as information for developers to help identify and fix bugs. While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer.

Regards,

GM Grimmi
Lead Game Master


I can't link to the post any more, it's gone...

Bacon had 1 thing over the rest of the monitoring programs, it was made available to everyone... the private monitoring programs are a bigger problem...

Will any of you try to get CCP to admit how long they have known about the monitoring programs and why they only made the commitment to put a stop to them when the public was made aware that they existed?

/me removes tin foil hat now Razz

TornSoul
BIG
Gentlemen's Agreement
Posted - 2008.05.03 21:43:00 - [17]
 

I'll quote my answer to EVE Tribune


Quote:

It's been a few years since I last had a peak into the logfiles - But I'm guessing not much has changed.
But it might - So please keep taht in mind reading on.

Firstly I commend the guys for beeing so ingenious - and it's definatly a usefull tool.
Secondly I shake my head a CCP for still having "too sensitive" data in the logfiles...

The info in the logfiles *can* be used for "unfair advantages" - If you have the know-how.
The vast majority do not have this know-how.

Now these guys gave build a tool, with public sourcecode.
And while their tool itself seems to be compliant with all rules etc - and doesnt in itself infer too much of any advantage - The fact that the source code is public, definatly lowers the bar for the next guy - Who might not care as much about the rules.

Moving one step closer to script kiddies ruling EVE.... (if you want a catch phrase :-) )

So while I can't point a finger at BACON itself, the path it opens up scares the **** out of me tbh...

It's one of those "I wish it would go away" things.....

*What* should happen ofc would be for CCP to clean up their logfiles (either encrypt or remove info or otherwise) so that there would be no danger for abuse there in the first place.

Regards
TornSoul
BIG-CEO


Arithron
Gallente
Gallente Trade Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.03 21:47:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Arithron on 03/05/2008 21:49:48
I'm not keen on thrid party applications that give players or groups of players advantages over others. If they are indeed good additions, then submission for development by CCP is the only way to go. This is because I like to know that my code is clean and free from any other little suprises, as I am sure other players do!

Take care,
Bruce Hansen

Dierdra Vaal
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.05.03 21:55:00 - [19]
 

from eve tribune:

The BACON issue is an interesting topic. While it does not breach any EULA rules _at this point_, it is clearly doing something CCP did not intend, which is shown by the following quote from GM Grimmi:

"While BACON, and the many similar tools currently used by a large number of players, may technically not be in violation of our EULA/TOS, we frown upon the use of this information for any other purpose and we are currently working on changes to prevent this sort of unintended use of information provided by the LogServer. "

Because it is clearly achieving something that is not intended, I do not support BACON.

However, it does raise a good question, one I feel everyone should be willing to ask and debate rationally. Why can our ship computers identify targets in local space, but not explicitly notify us of this?

I do believe the Eve UI leaves a lot to be desired, and people using programs like this only serves to illustrate that. When would scrolling through a list of players in a system ever be fun? And if it isnt fun, why would we want to have this in a game that we play... for fun?

Ofcourse, this is not to say I am in favour of automating the UI or give players notifications for everything, but if there is a local list with everyone currently in system, why do we have to go through the simple but tedious task of checking all players manually when our ships boast computers capable of interstellar travel.

I hope this issue will allow us to talk about interface improvements that make the game more enjoyable.

Ben Derindar
Dirty Deeds Corp.
Posted - 2008.05.03 22:31:00 - [20]
 

My thoughts on BACON are here, but essentially I am concerned not just about what the program itself can do, but the precedent it sets in how it could inspire others to create tools even worse.

Certainly I'm glad that CCP are frowning upon the concept, now all they need to do is take action against it.

/Ben

Ma Zhiqiang
Minmatar
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.05.04 00:42:00 - [21]
 

I see EVE online as a MMO, where the primary goal is to interact with other players.

The problem behind these things like macros or other types of exploits of game mechanics or the EULA, is the wrong way. All these things are results of flaws in the game mechanics.

Deal with the causes of these exploits, not the symptoms.

Ikki Phoenix
Gallente
United Imperial Fleet
Posted - 2008.05.05 05:48:00 - [22]
 

And again people target Bacon,but no one raises any hell over the other such tools.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.05.05 05:53:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Ikki Phoenix
And again people target Bacon,but no one raises any hell over the other such tools.


Which other tools?

I'm personally not bothered about BACON as such. It was just the fortunate program, that bursted the bubble.

CCP very well knew that the logserver could be abused. But they never bothered actually doing anything about it, as the vocal minority wasn't really informed.

It wasn't till BACON was released, that CCP was forced into looking at the issue.

I'm against all programs, which makes use of the data, directly from the client. The API should be the only automated tool for gathering information.

Tusko Hopkins
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.05 11:34:00 - [24]
 

I will quote my response from EVE Tribune:

Quote:
I definitely do NOT support BACON. In my opinion BACON belongs to the group of tools that turns EVE into the wrong direction and it is generally bad for the game. The original version, with the centralized tracking of hostiles, which was removed on behalf of CCPs request was definitely an unfair advantage to the parties using it, however even with it being completely removed (umm, yeah, sure :), I have several problems with the current version. I generally do not support any tools aimed at automatizing this game. This is not World of Warcraft and it should not become like it. I think that players should play this game instead of sitting back and watching it play itself. I think tools that make it possible to play the game in an afk way (turn on speakers, go watch football, run and safespot when alert sounds) are generally bad. I understand that there are boring parts of the game which do not require much player interaction, but this is more a game design problem and does not validate the use of such tools. These game areas should be enhanced to provide a more interesting gameplay experience so that people doing it do not wanna go afk at all.

And one sitting at the computer does not need tools to alert him about local changes! Especially nowadays, when CCP has added the standing icons to the local channel. My other problem with this tool is that it is "local boost". I think local should go, vanish, be removed, replaced by something else. CCP had several ideas about how to do it, it was featured in numerous dev blogs, I hope they find an acceptable solution to this soon. So it should definitely be nerfed, not boosted!

My third and last argument against BACON is that this entire case is somewhat like a precedent case for logserver-based data mining. If I had been CCP, I would have definitely found some point in the EULA which makes it illegal, because the general permission to do realtime logserver datamining can spawn a new line of tools which will enable "authorized macroing". There have always been macros in EVE, but they have all been defined as illegal and their usage ended up in bans and account terminations. However if CCP says that realtime logservering is okay, well, the macros wont exactly manipulate the game but give you the help to be able to do stuff without actually sitting in front of your computer.



Grey Shadow
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2008.05.13 10:11:00 - [25]
 

Anything that gives one group an unfair advantage over the rest of the community is a big negative in my opinion.

I think this is down to the community as a whole to decide, do they want CCP and EVE to support third party modules/add-ons like this, in which case it allows everyone to access this type of enhancement, and promotes thier developement (and I dearly hope we do not go down this route)

Or, do we stand against it, and ask CCP to close access to this type of real-time information (as best as posssible), but run the risk of driving such program development underground and potentially allowing a select few to gain an unfair advantage for as long as they don't get caught.

We as a community need to make our collective opinions known to CCP, and then CCP for their part need to step up and tell us which way this is going to go.

On a strictly personal note, I'm for getting rid of local. If we need to have a 'local' system chat channel, then it should be at best delayed membership (5 mins) and preferably recent speaker only. I think that may go along way towards helping combat this type of utility, and also make the game a bit more interesting ...


Andy

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.13 11:25:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Sariyah on 13/05/2008 11:26:09
Eve is supposed to be an interactive game not an afk one.
If you chose something as boring as dragging stuff from your cargo to a can every 3 minutes then live with it. Noone forces you to do it.. ;)

Edit: Oh, and yea, the precedent thingie. Bacon is good for one and only one thing, that it stirred up the general public's attention. But we don't need any "addon" kind of thingies, public OR private.

Less lag, less cheaters, work on that for a few months. Then ambulation or whatsoever. My order of priorities.. :)

Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.13 15:24:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine

BACON is bad for the game.
Fingers crossed CCP close the log-server data glitch that lets this program (and others like it) function.
If BACON is still around should I be elected of CSM I'll certainly be voting for this to be raised as an issue and condemned by CCP.




I think Bacon's largely irrelevant on its own. The functionality could be used to do worse. Ultimately I think CCP decides what's allowed and not allowed to interact with their client. I think if they wanted to condemn it, they would. I also think that if they want to disable it, they will.

I really don't see this particular application as a huge deal. The precedent may be more of an issue than anything else and the response is really a corporate matter.

I certainly don't think some silly resolution to condemn a log reading program is a productive use of the CSM's time. Bacon isn't an original idea or a very recent one. Spending all day passing resolutions about things we don't like that have very little bearing on the game itself would just be a waste of everyone's time, including CCPs.

Sariyah
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.05.13 16:21:00 - [28]
 

Agree that not everyone likes the idea of a fair game, especially now that there is one of these proggies available to public maybe the rest will be stopped too with users banned, yummie.


 

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