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Tergiminius
Binary Star
Posted - 2008.04.28 23:31:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Tergiminius on 28/04/2008 23:32:58
With all the whining that currently goes on for / against T2 bpos what would you see as the way forward on this issue, are you for them remaining, turned into long run bpcs or should they be removed altogether ?

This is an important question as we need a resolution on this before we head into Tech 3, there's a lot of speculation round this and as yet CCP have no answer.

Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Posted - 2008.04.29 00:14:00 - [2]
 

Remember if you're for phasing out of tech II BPOs then you're for endless grinding and more horrid POS'.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.04.29 05:20:00 - [3]
 

I would offer you a longer response, but your question is kinda vague. You don't put forward any issue.

As such, i think that the T2 bpo's are just fine. It wouldn't be too smart to convert them into BPC's.

Slayton Ford
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.04.29 05:32:00 - [4]
 

With the refinments to invention, cartels of T2 BPO holders are no longer an issue. The main issue with T2 is high end moon minerals being monopolized by select few alliances.

Peri Stark
Gallente
Blood Covenant
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.04.29 05:36:00 - [5]
 

This topic was covered recently in another thread. I think the only T2 BPO "issue" is on the forums. I think this is just beating a dead horse.

Daveydweeb
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.04.29 09:47:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Remember if you're for phasing out of tech II BPOs then you're for endless grinding and more horrid POS'.


I'm not sure I see the causal link here.

Zanpt
Caldari
Posted - 2008.04.29 11:05:00 - [7]
 

Put the damned T2 BPOs on the market. Seed them like other BPOs. This business where the Market is not allowed to do its job and its IMPOSSBLE to get most T2 BPOs is absurd.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.04.29 11:14:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Zanpt
Put the damned T2 BPOs on the market. Seed them like other BPOs. This business where the Market is not allowed to do its job and its IMPOSSBLE to get most T2 BPOs is absurd.

Have you tried invention?

Daveydweeb
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.04.29 11:15:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Daveydweeb on 29/04/2008 11:15:28
I'm guessing you've never tried your hand at invention, then.

EDIT: efb

Eternal Hatred
Amarr
Pantsu Garu Limited Technologies
Posted - 2008.04.29 12:51:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: LaVista Vista
As such, i think that the T2 bpo's are just fine. It wouldn't be too smart to convert them into BPC's.


+2 for you in my books, Sir Razz

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.04.29 14:29:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Jade Constantine on 29/04/2008 14:45:29

Tech2 bpos in the game currently are absolutely fine, they've been shuffled around now and bought and auctioned and traded and reached their current owners through the workings of a free market economy in the game. Its no longer about freebies from the lottery and now much more about 2-3 year funding planning on X auction amount. If I want to buy myself a Nighthawk BPO in the current environment I'm going to be paying 55billion isk and its going to take several years to pay back the investment. Thats entirely reasonable and its actually unreasonable to suggest that at any point in the future that BPO should suddenly turn to a BPC and make my investment meaningless.

Invention is a fully viable alternative for startup industrial outfits - tech2 bpo owning is no longer the beginning and end of the equation, and current tech2 owners have to bid for supply on components derived from moon minding holdings the same as anyone else does.

In short, I think the tech2 system in Eve is currently pretty good, there are opportunities for risk takers (tech2 auctions,) opportunities for the average industrialist (invention), opportunities for cartels and raw materials cartels (moon minerals and components) and taken as a whole, it works.


LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.04.29 14:34:00 - [12]
 

Jade is completely right. I was gonna write a large post about that, now that I'm home from class, but Jade beat me to it.

Also, you have to remember that T2 BPO's actually increase the stability of the T2 markets. This is because the build costs on T2(The more T2 components the item uses, the large stabilizing effect the T2 BPO's have) BPO's is smaller. So while they can't keep up with the supply, the are able to do it to a small degree, and thus decrease the volatility of the market, if the moon minerals swing.

So all in all, T2 BPO's ARE good for the consumers. They aren't an isk printer anymore. In fact, you will see T2 BPO's selling for many times the yearly profit. For instance, i have seen some T2 bpo's being sold at prices, which would make it do about 1-3% return on investment per month.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2008.04.29 14:57:00 - [13]
 

With 300 millions worth of datacores and decryptors I got enough runs to do 15 rapiers. It will take me about a week to build them.

My margin per ship is much lower than the one of a T2 bpo builder, but I have more than double his output, which mean I'll still make a confortable amount of money. And that's with using only 3 factory slots. I could triple that output easily, assuming I had the capital for buying enough construction components.

T2 bpos are fine. Invention is mostly fine, too, with just the ME/PE of input BPC and effect of meta 0 items needing looking at.

Tergiminius
Binary Star
Posted - 2008.04.29 17:17:00 - [14]
 

The reason I raised the issue wasn't anything to do with the affect of pure invention per say but more to get an idea of what side of the fence you sit on with regards to the bpos. Whilst many agree they are fine as they are, there are also probably an equal number who disagree and will always disagree as they can't see themselves being in a position of owning an "isk printing machine" and think it's highly unfair that nothing is done about this. Yes we all know about 95% of the t2 bpos are rubbish and you can invent anything anything anyway but this point of view remains so, each thinking they should go or stay.

It should be the role of the CSM candidate to collate all points of view for/against and remain unbiased towards any side in the CSM role.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2008.04.29 20:02:00 - [15]
 

Right now they're only two real isk-printing machines: dyspro/prom moons and invention. Only invention require some sweat, and rare moons require you to be in a big alliance.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.04.29 20:09:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Tergiminius
The reason I raised the issue wasn't anything to do with the affect of pure invention per say but more to get an idea of what side of the fence you sit on with regards to the bpos. Whilst many agree they are fine as they are, there are also probably an equal number who disagree and will always disagree as they can't see themselves being in a position of owning an "isk printing machine" and think it's highly unfair that nothing is done about this. Yes we all know about 95% of the t2 bpos are rubbish and you can invent anything anything anyway but this point of view remains so, each thinking they should go or stay.

It should be the role of the CSM candidate to collate all points of view for/against and remain unbiased towards any side in the CSM role.

But isn't the idea that CSM should filter out logic-less whine?

I mean, I'm yet to see ANY argument for why T2 bpo's should be removed, with invention in place.

Unless you can give me 1 reason why T2 BPO's are bad, I don't consider them to be a problem. But i probably need perspective, and if you can give me a good argument against them, I'm sure it will be included in any discussion, to at least TRY and prove why T2 BPO's are bad.

MongWen
Xeno Tech Corp
Self Destruct.
Posted - 2008.04.29 20:22:00 - [17]
 

In my opinion the T2 BPO’s shod stay as they are, now how that will effect the t3 invention it is a bit too early to say.

And that some people still think they are isk printing machines should go into a bit more work and buy one for them self. And as stated before it is not the producers that get the isk printer at the moment it is the 0.0 alliances that have the good moons.


manasi
Caldari
Ceptacemia
-Mostly Harmless-
Posted - 2008.04.29 20:27:00 - [18]
 

FWIW...Lavista...sometimes a good illustration of what is wheat, versus what is chaff is needed the OP is an example of chaff for example.

Tergiminius
Binary Star
Posted - 2008.04.29 20:37:00 - [19]
 

I agree it is chaff Very Happy I never said i'm against t2 bpo as i've owned a few and currently own one now. I was trying to gauge really a perspective of the CSM stance as there are people who would like them removed (me I don't know tbh as there are pros and cons) and I am hoping to see a candidate who filters the whines from all sides, without bias to one camp only.

Arithron
Gallente
Gallente Trade Alliance
Posted - 2008.04.29 20:56:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Arithron on 29/04/2008 20:58:30
Let me see if I am understanding this discussion so far (some arguments have taken from other threads) :


The T2 BPO's are just fine the way they are because

They've been shuffled around now and bought and auctioned and traded and reached their current owners through the workings of a free market economy in the game.

Invention is a fully viable alternative for start-up industrial outfits.

Current T2 owners have to bid for supply on components derived from moon minding holdings the same as anyone else does.

T2 BPO's actually increase the stability of the T2 markets.

Most T2 BPO’s aren’t ISK printing machines as invention now ensures that sell prices have to be competitive with invention T2 stuff.

If they weren’t in-game, many items wouldn’t be available as invention costs would be more than players willing to pay for items.

Some hard-to-invent items would sky-rocket in price if T2 BPO’s removed.

The T2 BPO’s should be replaced/removed because…

Certain Corps or Alliances have a monopoly on certain T2 items and the lower price cap (due to the ability to improve ME) and faster production rate (from improving PE) means that they can make good profit and sell below invent cost.

The price of T2 BPO puts the owning of a T2 BPO beyond the reach of newer players and Corps.

With invention failures and run limits, most players can’t afford to invent and compete, since T2 holders have an advantage of always succeeding and having lower costs.

The requirements for invention, coupled with high skills required for many items (eg, Ships), means that only older players can realistically invent- and these are those players that are more likely to just have the BPO or the disposable isk.

Newer players want to be able to build and sell the more profitable T2 items onto markets.

Inventors can invent more lots than a BPO can produce.


Of course, T2 BPO owners, if they wanted, could also invent alongside their T2 BPO production.

Has anybody have any further thoughts to add to this list of pros and cons?

Bruce Hansen

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.04.29 22:11:00 - [21]
 

Deconstructing the "cons":

* Certain Corps or Alliances have a monopoly on certain T2 items and the lower price cap (due to the ability to improve ME) and faster production rate (from improving PE) means that they can make good profit and sell below invent cost.

Nobody in his right mind will sell *significantly* below invention cost unless the market is so saturated that inventors would have bailed out a long time ago anyway (so they would only be competing with other BPO holders anyway).
Prices are mainly set by inventors (the ones that have most of the potential supply in hands) for all "in demand" items... while items "not in demand" would only become prohibitively expensive without T2 BPOs (so expensive nobody would bother inventing them, since nobody would be buying them at all in the first place).


* The price of T2 BPO puts the owning of a T2 BPO beyond the reach of newer players and Corps.

The price of a Titan/Mothership does the same, should they be so cheap a 1-month player could afford them ?
Also, the price is 100% set by the players. Some T2 BPOs have nothing but a sentimental value, still prices asked are huge.
Bottom line... so what if new players/corps can't afford T2 BPOs ? It's not a good reason to remove them.



* With invention failures and run limits, most players can’t afford to invent and compete, since T2 holders have an advantage of always succeeding and having lower costs.

You don't compete with BPO holders, you only compete with other inventors.
You only need to look at the prices of T2 items that have no BPOs in existance to see what I mean.


* The requirements for invention, coupled with high skills required for many items (eg, Ships), means that only older players can realistically invent- and these are those players that are more likely to just have the BPO or the disposable isk.

The higher the entry barrier, the better the market for those that finally get there.
You only need to look at the T1 market to see what a disaster for profits a very low barrier of entry causes.
Heck, I would even argue the entry barrier for invention is not nearly high enough as it is.


* Newer players want to be able to build and sell the more profitable T2 items onto markets.

If they are so profitable, then let them get the needed skills and funding with other activities.
But as soon as they get there, they will realize that it's not the milk-and-honey land they thought it would be, and that simply manufacturing T1 ammo in a mission hub would bring them better profits for the capital they can afford to invest.


* Inventors can invent more lots than a BPO can produce.

How's that a con for T2 BPOs existing ?

Arithron
Gallente
Gallente Trade Alliance
Posted - 2008.04.29 22:18:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Arithron on 29/04/2008 22:19:05
Its in the 'Reasons to remove T2 BPO' section. Essentially, if I understand the argument correctly, the T2 BPO aren't needed to keep up supply as more BPC can be invented and built from in a month than items built from a BPO alone.

Bruce Hansen

Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Posted - 2008.04.29 23:10:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Daveydweeb
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
Remember if you're for phasing out of tech II BPOs then you're for endless grinding and more horrid POS'.


I'm not sure I see the causal link here.


Really? Remove BPOs in favor of BPCs and we'll have many more POS' churn out BPCs to grind that thing called invention, what's not to see?

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2008.04.29 23:18:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Arithron
Its in the 'Reasons to remove T2 BPO' section. Essentially, if I understand the argument correctly, the T2 BPO aren't needed to keep up supply as more BPC can be invented and built from in a month than items built from a BPO alone.

For the items in demand, true.
But for those items that "manufacturing from high ME BPO" is still barely profitable, it would be the death bell ringing.

Serenity Steele
Dynamic Data Distribution
Posted - 2008.04.29 23:50:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Tech2 bpos in the game currently are absolutely fine, they've been shuffled around now and bought and auctioned and traded and reached their current owners through the workings of a free market economy in the game. Its no longer about freebies from the lottery and now much more about 2-3 year funding planning on X auction amount. If I want to buy myself a Nighthawk BPO in the current environment I'm going to be paying 55billion isk and its going to take several years to pay back the investment. Thats entirely reasonable and its actually unreasonable to suggest that at any point in the future that BPO should suddenly turn to a BPC and make my investment meaningless.

Invention is a fully viable alternative for startup industrial outfits - tech2 bpo owning is no longer the beginning and end of the equation, and current tech2 owners have to bid for supply on components derived from moon minding holdings the same as anyone else does.

In short, I think the tech2 system in Eve is currently pretty good, there are opportunities for risk takers (tech2 auctions,) opportunities for the average industrialist (invention), opportunities for cartels and raw materials cartels (moon minerals and components) and taken as a whole, it works.


Good description Jade. I agree with this reasoning.

Chrisb6122
Gallente
Reikoku
Posted - 2008.04.29 23:55:00 - [26]
 

humm lots of familar faces posting here.

*bks thread and hopes it doesn't turn into a flame fest like all the others.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.04.30 03:52:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Chrisb6122
humm lots of familar faces posting here.

*bks thread and hopes it doesn't turn into a flame fest like all the others.

Hey Chris, long time no see.

I'm yet to experience a flame fest on these new CSM forums. Wink

Octavinus Augustus
Amarr
Auctoritan Syndicate
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.04.30 09:55:00 - [28]
 

I'm not sure I get the point here. Either Tech II bpo's have to go out completely or the should stay as they are. Why not look at the middle way?

Let's take a BPO and compare it to the same invented BPC.

The BPO starts life with ME and PE at 0, and can then be researched, so that it's efficiency is improved for all time to come.

The same invented BPC starts out with ME and PE at probably either -1 or -2 depending on the items used in inventing it (if none is used ME and PE will be -4). These numbers are (to my knowledge) impossible to change.

So, as things are today producing stuff through invention will probably cost at least 30-40% more than producing it through BPO's. On top of this it's more timeconsuming as the producer will need to gather the items needed for invention and some of the invention runs will be failures.

So where does CSM candidates stand on suggestions like improving the start ME and PE on invented bpc's to be 0, just like BPO's?

Where do you stand on making it possible to do ME and PE research of invented BPC's?

Do you believe at all that its an issue that inventors spend more podtime and isk to get an item, than BPO owners who simply got an BPO in a lottery once upon a time?

Personally, I think that a good CSM candidate is one who can actually find a balanced solution to a problem, rather than simply saying "It's fine as it is" or "It needs to go".

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.04.30 11:15:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Octavinus Augustus
I'm not sure I get the point here. Either Tech II bpo's have to go out completely or the should stay as they are. Why not look at the middle way?

Let's take a BPO and compare it to the same invented BPC.

The BPO starts life with ME and PE at 0, and can then be researched, so that it's efficiency is improved for all time to come.

The same invented BPC starts out with ME and PE at probably either -1 or -2 depending on the items used in inventing it (if none is used ME and PE will be -4). These numbers are (to my knowledge) impossible to change.

So, as things are today producing stuff through invention will probably cost at least 30-40% more than producing it through BPO's. On top of this it's more timeconsuming as the producer will need to gather the items needed for invention and some of the invention runs will be failures.

So where does CSM candidates stand on suggestions like improving the start ME and PE on invented bpc's to be 0, just like BPO's?

Where do you stand on making it possible to do ME and PE research of invented BPC's?

Do you believe at all that its an issue that inventors spend more podtime and isk to get an item, than BPO owners who simply got an BPO in a lottery once upon a time?

Personally, I think that a good CSM candidate is one who can actually find a balanced solution to a problem, rather than simply saying "It's fine as it is" or "It needs to go".

Again, what are you trying to solve?

It just seems to me like you request a change, just for the sake of change.

As it is now, invention can make much more isk than owning a T2 BPO. T2 BPO's are virtually worthless, if you look at the return-rates.
If you ACTUALLY make invention BPC's ME0, PE0, the only difference between T2 BPO's are the invention chance and datacore cost.

It could be very interesting to be able to research BPC's to ME0 though.

New Hampshire
Caldari
Eve Independent Builders Network
Posted - 2008.04.30 12:20:00 - [30]
 

I do NOT like the idea of eliminating tech II BPOs currently in existence. People got those fair and square (except for you-know-whoConfused) and it's not right in my view to take it away even though of course for selfish reasons I'd prefer they were not out there. I think players should be able to bank on a certain level of stability, trustworthiness with regard to what they are buying/selling/obtaining.


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