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Dingi223
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:13:00 - [391]
 

Edited by: Dingi223 on 22/05/2008 16:13:44
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Point of clarification: Jade did not get the majority of the votes. Jade got the most votes of an individual. No one person achieved the majority of the votes.

I don't control goons. They are free to post whatever, wherever and however they like. I was responding to what I perceived as an attempt to change the rules. I don't see how that's beyond my scope of responsibility. Especially given that I was threatened with disenfranchisement by someone who is clearly without the authority to do so.


Well, I look forward to the issues and points that goons wish to post in the Assembly Hall, and I will be interested in your points of view and statements. Unfortunately, your alliance and corp mates damage any credibility that you wish to establish to a large portion of the EVE player base. And their posting in this thread has probably just simply cemented a large portion of that player base to continue supporting alternative candidates.

Gorobom
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:14:00 - [392]
 

Originally by: Dingi223
Edited by: Dingi223 on 22/05/2008 16:07:30
Originally by: Gorobom
You're not thinking with the right head. Sum up Darius JOHNSON's and Bane Glorious' votes and you'll realize that GS could have put any of them as chairman easily. If Chairmen had THAT much power, you wouldn't be so happy right now.


Then why didn't they? If they wanted the chair so much, and feel that Jade makes such an undeserving chair, why didn't they seek to secure this position themselves? Next time you can obviously rectify this.


My own post answered that, using a bit of logic and common sense.

Dingi223
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:16:00 - [393]
 

Originally by: Gorobom
My own post answered that, using a bit of logic and common sense.


Then that same logic and common sense clearly shows why your statement about combining the votes is false.

Why make a statement, then use your own common logic and sense to discredit it?

Kelsin
Dirt Dog Trading Company
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:16:00 - [394]
 

The word is plurality.

The first order of business for the CSM is electing these vacant positions within 3 days. If the Council is to elect their own Chairperson they need to first change the official system by which the Chair is selected - which would be the second order of business. It's not hard to understand.

Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:18:00 - [395]
 

Originally by: Dingi223
Edited by: Dingi223 on 22/05/2008 16:13:44
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Point of clarification: Jade did not get the majority of the votes. Jade got the most votes of an individual. No one person achieved the majority of the votes.

I don't control goons. They are free to post whatever, wherever and however they like. I was responding to what I perceived as an attempt to change the rules. I don't see how that's beyond my scope of responsibility. Especially given that I was threatened with disenfranchisement by someone who is clearly without the authority to do so.


Well, I look forward to the issues and points that goons wish to post in the Assembly Hall, and I will be interested in your points of view and statements. Unfortunately, your alliance and corp mates damage any credibility that you wish to establish to a large portion of the EVE player base. And their posting in this thread has probably just simply cemented a large portion of that player base to continue supporting alternative candidates.


That's your opinion. Goons have been Goons for a long time and will be for a long time after. We seem to get by quite fine. I would posit that the establishment off credibility is relative and perhaps there's an alternative viewpoint to the one you're offering. Shoes on other feet et al.

Sunwillow Auryn
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:19:00 - [396]
 

Congratulations Jade.

The voting was done democratically. In this democratic election, Goonswarm managed to get two seats out of the nine, but a larger proportion of players expressed support for alternative ways of looking at the game mechanics. What this says to me is that while Goonswarm may consider themselves expert on all aspects of play (except, as noted above, 'carebears'), the rest of the player base don't hold the same opinion.

Just because Goonswarm is the largest alliance does not make it representative of anyone's views other than those players who choose to be a member of it - and that is a tiny minority of EVE's actual player base.

The elections have happened, and the result is not going to be changed. Those factions who have not been as successful as they hoped will have to rely on other tactics than 'blobbing' the CSM.

Basically - go by the FIFO principle - "Fit in, or ... go away.". If you are so disillusioned by the results that you cannot work within the system, feel free to resign your position in the CSM and go back to whatever it is you do in game. Otherwise, use the opportunity to prove to the rest of the player base that you aren't the (insert derogatory noun here) that so many people clearly think you are, and be a useful member of the council. As in, promote your views, debate the issues, and vote on them. Every member of the council is entitled to prejudice, the Chair as much as anyone else - impartiality is not a requirement of the Chair in any committee I've ever seen. The players knew this when they cast their votes - hence all the discussion in the weeks leading up to the election - and we know it now when issues are raised.

This is how democracy works - candidates are evaluated on the strength of their beliefs and principles and elected accordingly. I know the political principle of 'might makes right' is more prevalent than democracy in EVE, but the CSM is not an in-game tool, it's an out of game advisory committee for in-game issues. There is a difference.

Gorobom
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:19:00 - [397]
 

Originally by: Dingi223
Originally by: Gorobom
My own post answered that, using a bit of logic and common sense.


Then that same logic and common sense clearly shows why your statement about combining the votes is false.

Why make a statement, then use your own common logic and sense to discredit it?


What

You're posting just for the sake of arguing with someone, right?

Gunner Dark
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:21:00 - [398]
 

This is the whole reason only 11% of the player base voted in one easy thread.

Goons being goons : check
Alliance agendas : check
Power trips : check

Its good to know CCP will never ever give you guys any real power.

Trupplupagus
Reederei
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:22:00 - [399]
 

Originally by: Gunner Dark
This is the whole reason only 11% of the player base voted in one easy thread.

Goons being goons : check
Alliance agendas : check
Power trips : check

Its good to know CCP will never ever give you guys any real power.


Amen

LASER WATCHER
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:23:00 - [400]
 

Originally by: Sunwillow Auryn
This is how democracy works - candidates are evaluated on the strength of their beliefs and principles by each individual and voted for accordingly.

Adrimar
Hellfire-Empire
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:24:00 - [401]
 

Originally by: Sunwillow Auryn
Congratulations Jade.

The voting was done democratically. In this democratic election, Goonswarm managed to get two seats out of the nine, but a larger proportion of players expressed support for alternative ways of looking at the game mechanics. What this says to me is that while Goonswarm may consider themselves expert on all aspects of play (except, as noted above, 'carebears'), the rest of the player base don't hold the same opinion.

*snip*


Whoa there!

Jade got a grand total of approx. 1% of the total eligible vote. To say that "the rest of the player base" is kinda stretching it, don't you think?

Not that I agree with how Goonswarm is doing this, but please remember that Jade did not win this by a huge landslide and by far does not represent the general eve population. Jade represents around 1% of the eve population.

Gorobom
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:25:00 - [402]
 

Originally by: Adrimar
Originally by: Sunwillow Auryn
Congratulations Jade.

The voting was done democratically. In this democratic election, Goonswarm managed to get two seats out of the nine, but a larger proportion of players expressed support for alternative ways of looking at the game mechanics. What this says to me is that while Goonswarm may consider themselves expert on all aspects of play (except, as noted above, 'carebears'), the rest of the player base don't hold the same opinion.

*snip*


Whoa there!

Jade got a grand total of approx. 1% of the total eligible vote. To say that "the rest of the player base" is kinda stretching it, don't you think?

Not that I agree with how Goonswarm is doing this, but please remember that Jade did not win this by a huge landslide and by far does not represent the general eve population. Jade represents around 1% of the eve population.


Moreover, a larger % voted for Goonswarm than for Jade Constantine.

Sunwillow Auryn
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:26:00 - [403]
 

Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
The voting's over. I don't have to pretend anything anymore.


Sorry - I posted my thing above and then went back to read responses done while i was typing it and just HAD to comment when I read this...

So, you don't have to pretend now the voting is over? What exactly were you pretending to do, or be, during the run up to voting? Smile

Samuel Harrow
Body Count Inc.
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:27:00 - [404]
 

God this is happening even faster and better than i'd hoped!

No more CAOD for me, this kicks the **** out of it :D

Sunwillow Auryn
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:29:00 - [405]
 

Originally by: Gorobom
Moreover, a larger % voted for Goonswarm than for Jade Constantine.


Alternatively, you could think of it as more people voted for someone, anyone other than Goonswarm, than voted for them.

It's all semantics.

Idaeus
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:31:00 - [406]
 

Edited by: Idaeus on 22/05/2008 16:32:37
Originally by: Dingi223
And their posting in this thread has probably just simply cemented a large portion of that player base to continue supporting alternative candidates.

I love this.

Just because I'm an SA member and a member of GoonSwarm I'm automatically some hooligan when I attempt to point out blatant discrimination in an elected representative of the player base of which I and my fellow goons are a part.

Honestly it doesn't surprise me when this is the very attitude that met us when we first entered this game. Right from the start we were typecast and marginalized. We came here to play and enjoy the game, and we're in GoonFleet because we like playing with other goons (we LOVE to help newbees get started and jumpstart their enjoyment of the game instead of having them languish in empire). We have some extremely intelligent and talented individuals from many diverse backgrounds and we have a vested interest in improving the game we often enjoy, and the things we make to improve our enjoyment of the game end up helping the EVE community as a whole. EVEmon is an excellent example of this.

But because we're goons automatically makes us hooligans.

Skogen Gump
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:34:00 - [407]
 

Originally by: Idaeus

But because we're goons automatically makes us hooligoons.


^Fixed that for you Wink

Yggdrassill Yeltsin
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:36:00 - [408]
 

Originally by: Idaeus
Edited by: Idaeus on 22/05/2008 16:32:37
Originally by: Dingi223
And their posting in this thread has probably just simply cemented a large portion of that player base to continue supporting alternative candidates.

I love this.

Just because I'm an SA member and a member of GoonSwarm I'm automatically some hooligan when I attempt to point out blatant discrimination in an elected representative of the player base of which I and my fellow goons are a part.

Honestly it doesn't surprise me when this is the very attitude that met us when we first entered this game. Right from the start we were typecast and marginalized. We came here to play and enjoy the game, and we're in GoonFleet because we like playing with other goons (we LOVE to help newbees get started and jumpstart their enjoyment of the game instead of having them languish in empire). We have some extremely intelligent and talented individuals from many diverse backgrounds and we have a vested interest in improving the game we often enjoy, and the things we make to improve our enjoyment of the game end up helping the EVE community as a whole. EVEmon is an excellent example of this.

But because we're goons automatically makes us hooligans.


I'm predicting a lot of long responses that basically say "Yes, that's right- also you deserve this and it's awesome."

Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:37:00 - [409]
 

Originally by: Sunwillow Auryn
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
The voting's over. I don't have to pretend anything anymore.


Sorry - I posted my thing above and then went back to read responses done while i was typing it and just HAD to comment when I read this...

So, you don't have to pretend now the voting is over? What exactly were you pretending to do, or be, during the run up to voting? Smile


That's the point. There's nothing to be gained by pretending anything. Yet here I am the same person I was the entire time. I don't HAVE to pretend anything at this point. I was elected. That doesn't in any way insinuate that I ever HAVE pretended anything as much as you'd like to insinuate so. I've been open and honest the entire time. The same cannot be said for others.

Skut Farkuss
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:50:00 - [410]
 

Edited by: Skut Farkuss on 22/05/2008 16:59:36
Edited by: Skut Farkuss on 22/05/2008 16:50:45
Jade, I don't give a damn whether you actually step down or not, but I think we deserve an answer about whether you said you would, and if you did, why you are choosing not to.

I voted for you, though I didn't follow much of the campaigning other than threads.

Thanks!

E: I'm heading off to work, so I'll reply to any replies later, cheers all

Idaeus
Posted - 2008.05.22 17:03:00 - [411]
 

Originally by: Yggdrassill Yeltsin
I'm predicting a lot of long responses that basically say "Yes, that's right- also you deserve this and it's awesome."

I know, and it's one of the many things that really makes it hard to try and play nice with the EVE community.

Curzon Dax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.05.22 17:07:00 - [412]
 

Originally by: Idaeus
Edited by: Idaeus on 22/05/2008 16:32:37
Originally by: Dingi223
And their posting in this thread has probably just simply cemented a large portion of that player base to continue supporting alternative candidates.

I love this.

Just because I'm an SA member and a member of GoonSwarm I'm automatically some hooligan when I attempt to point out blatant discrimination in an elected representative of the player base of which I and my fellow goons are a part.

Honestly it doesn't surprise me when this is the very attitude that met us when we first entered this game. Right from the start we were typecast and marginalized. We came here to play and enjoy the game, and we're in GoonFleet because we like playing with other goons (we LOVE to help newbees get started and jumpstart their enjoyment of the game instead of having them languish in empire). We have some extremely intelligent and talented individuals from many diverse backgrounds and we have a vested interest in improving the game we often enjoy, and the things we make to improve our enjoyment of the game end up helping the EVE community as a whole. EVEmon is an excellent example of this.

But because we're goons automatically makes us hooligans.


This made me laugh. Really, it did.

You (Goonswarm) have worked VERY HARD...VERY VERY HARD to become hated in Eve. You've gone out of your way, doing everything possible to alienate the player base, spam every possible section of the forums with pointless threads; at one point during a weekend, fully two pages of GD were individual threads about the sex appeal of various Goon members posted by themselves / alts.

And you have the gall to say "discriminated against because of my play style....

If your "walking" style is to stomp on the foot of everyone you pass, you're going to attract attention. Same thing in Eve - I don't know if you're being discriminated against, but if you are, its because you deserve it. You don't believe in live and let live. You don't bring anything to a conversation or debate. There is no such thing as "mutual respect" in a Goon's vocabulary. And you've worked VERY HARD to establish this image of yourselves. How can you now complain that all your hard work is being rewarded?

Erotic Irony
0bsession
Posted - 2008.05.22 17:10:00 - [413]
 

Originally by: Curzon Dax
Originally by: Idaeus
Edited by: Idaeus on 22/05/2008 16:32:37
Originally by: Dingi223
And their posting in this thread has probably just simply cemented a large portion of that player base to continue supporting alternative candidates.

I love this.

Just because I'm an SA member and a member of GoonSwarm I'm automatically some hooligan when I attempt to point out blatant discrimination in an elected representative of the player base of which I and my fellow goons are a part.

Honestly it doesn't surprise me when this is the very attitude that met us when we first entered this game. Right from the start we were typecast and marginalized. We came here to play and enjoy the game, and we're in GoonFleet because we like playing with other goons (we LOVE to help newbees get started and jumpstart their enjoyment of the game instead of having them languish in empire). We have some extremely intelligent and talented individuals from many diverse backgrounds and we have a vested interest in improving the game we often enjoy, and the things we make to improve our enjoyment of the game end up helping the EVE community as a whole. EVEmon is an excellent example of this.

But because we're goons automatically makes us hooligans.


This made me laugh. Really, it did.

You (Goonswarm) have worked VERY HARD...VERY VERY HARD to become hated in Eve. You've gone out of your way, doing everything possible to alienate the player base, spam every possible section of the forums with pointless threads; at one point during a weekend, fully two pages of GD were individual threads about the sex appeal of various Goon members posted by themselves / alts.

And you have the gall to say "discriminated against because of my play style....

If your "walking" style is to stomp on the foot of everyone you pass, you're going to attract attention. Same thing in Eve - I don't know if you're being discriminated against, but if you are, its because you deserve it. You don't believe in live and let live. You don't bring anything to a conversation or debate. There is no such thing as "mutual respect" in a Goon's vocabulary. And you've worked VERY HARD to establish this image of yourselves. How can you now complain that all your hard work is being rewarded?



your post is ruining my eve experience

see, I can do it too

Dingi223
Posted - 2008.05.22 17:24:00 - [414]
 

Originally by: Yggdrassill Yeltsin
I'm predicting a lot of long responses that basically say "Yes, that's right- also you deserve this and it's awesome."


I'm not saying you deserve it or that it is awesome. However, I do believe you are right. Goonswarm have played the game to enjoy it, however, that method of playing the game has also been to ruin it for others. Now, I enjoy the fact that EVE allows this, but it doesn't mean I need to respect Goonswarm for it's actions.

It's not that it's deserving, or that it's awesome, it's just the way some people of the community views Goonswarm.

And to reply to Darius, yes, that is my opinion. And yes, Goons will be Goons for a long time. That is part of the problem, people didn't enjoy Goons during Jihadswarm, the mindless posting of dribble, etc. Why would I want Goons on the CSM after that display? And yes, it's my opinion.

Kingwood
Amarr
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2008.05.22 17:26:00 - [415]
 

Welp, political bickering already. Awesome. This is a promising start.

To add my 2 cents: Goons are for the most part more intelligent and mature than the rest of the Eve playerbase, and they take this game as serious as anyone else. (That's why I left, because I enjoy ***ging around in lowsec more than fleet ops). While I've never put any weight on this CSM farce, I'd rather have Goons in charge than rambling buffoons like Jade Constantine.

Also, el oh el at Darius being this eloquent and rhetorically competent after having listened to the SotG speech. Laughing

Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.22 17:29:00 - [416]
 

Originally by: Dingi223
Originally by: Yggdrassill Yeltsin
I'm predicting a lot of long responses that basically say "Yes, that's right- also you deserve this and it's awesome."


I'm not saying you deserve it or that it is awesome. However, I do believe you are right. Goonswarm have played the game to enjoy it, however, that method of playing the game has also been to ruin it for others. Now, I enjoy the fact that EVE allows this, but it doesn't mean I need to respect Goonswarm for it's actions.

It's not that it's deserving, or that it's awesome, it's just the way some people of the community views Goonswarm.

And to reply to Darius, yes, that is my opinion. And yes, Goons will be Goons for a long time. That is part of the problem, people didn't enjoy Goons during Jihadswarm, the mindless posting of dribble, etc. Why would I want Goons on the CSM after that display? And yes, it's my opinion.


The same reason I thought empire dwellers should be on the CSM? Difference of opinion. If the council was staffed solely by Goons that'd be pretty stupid. If you want my opinion to counter what you said regarding jihadswarm check my thread. I've already gone over it a thousand times. Goons aren't to blame for miners choosing to not pay attention and think they were mining in abject safety. Now they know better. What I find most disturbing is the insinuation that the game should somehow be altered because of it.

Tolis Irithel
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2008.05.22 17:35:00 - [417]
 

I'm way off-topic, but this thread's drifted in any case.

Tragically, a significant portion of the CSM-related threads have become some kind of entrenched battleground, where those wishing to express views are dissuaded by the potential for unwarranted hostility. I thought for quite a while before posting this, and hopefully, it isn't about to happen to me...

This shouldn't be about Goonswarm vs. *insert name for conglomerate of others*, but about how the game can be improved for everybody. I, for one, voted with this in mind (1 vote went to Jade, the other to Serenity, as I believed these were the best two people to represent the playerbase. Right or wrong, it was an informed decision, and I dislike being categorised as stupid for this in certain threads.)

I agree entirely with the Goonswarm poster above who said that they have made positive contributions to the game; i have no first-hand experience of negative contributions, but I don't doubt these exist either. By playing, we make waves, and because of the highly PvP oriented nature of EVE, this means there will be those negatively and positively affected by each of us, to some degree. The unfortunate thing is, and I hope that the more reasonable members of GoonSwarm can see this, is that certain people here, non-goons and goons alike, through their postings here and in the Assembly area, are making proper discussion of issues harder, and potentially harming the ability of others to get legitimate points across.

This is not a personal attack on any person, group or alliance, and it's not aimed at any entity, either. It's a general call to the more reasonably-minded people here to continue their constructive postings, and to the...more...divisive, to consider whether what they're doing is really in the spirit of the CSM, or in the interests of the game. I hope this is taken in the spirit it's intended.


Dingi223
Posted - 2008.05.22 17:49:00 - [418]
 

Edited by: Dingi223 on 22/05/2008 17:51:37
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
The same reason I thought empire dwellers should be on the CSM? Difference of opinion. If the council was staffed solely by Goons that'd be pretty stupid. If you want my opinion to counter what you said regarding jihadswarm check my thread. I've already gone over it a thousand times. Goons aren't to blame for miners choosing to not pay attention and think they were mining in abject safety. Now they know better. What I find most disturbing is the insinuation that the game should somehow be altered because of it.


Please note, I clearly indicated that I like EVE in it's ability to do exactly what Goonswarm did. At no time have I indicated that the game should be altered because of it.

I have no problem with Goons being on the council, I appreciate the need for diversity. Even though I may not like Goons, they can obviously bring items to the table for consideration.

What I find disturbing is the needless posts of Goonswarm members in this thread, spamming forth drivel about Jade, when they have their representatives on the CSM to voice their concerns. I appreciate that they may not like Jade, big deal, I don't like Goonswarm. It's opinions. I 100% agree with your past post: get on with it and do whatever the CSM is meant to do.

Idaeus
Posted - 2008.05.22 17:50:00 - [419]
 

Edited by: Idaeus on 22/05/2008 17:51:34
Originally by: Tolis Irithel
This shouldn't be about Goonswarm vs. *insert name for conglomerate of others*, but about how the game can be improved for everybody.

All of our (read: GoonSwarm) candidates entered this with that in mind. There are goons involved in every aspect of this game, and while it would be remiss to say that our candidates aren't looking out for our interests it would be inaccurate to say that our interests don't mirror those of a considerable portion of the EVE community. Darius JOHNSON and Bane Glorious aren't limiting their thoughts to one aspect of the game, and they've been very vocal about their broad point of view. They have also publicly stated the areas that they are weak in, which most CSM members have not done.

Tolis Irithel
Northstar Cabal
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2008.05.22 17:56:00 - [420]
 

Idaeus, I'm perfectly happy with two of the people representing me being Darius and Bane; I have no reason to believe, at this time, that they will do any worse or better a job than anyone else, including Jade as chairman; everyone is untested at this time, and I wish them the best of success in aiding CCP in improving EVE. As I said, I was explicitly not looking to name names; I don't believe that would be constructive.


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