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Heartstone
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.05.22 15:33:00 - [361]
 

Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy
The problem is that CCP are completely inept when it comes to writing clear documentation. The CSM.pdf contains 13 pages of roleplay/metagame waffle that no one is going to read and is no consequence and then each step of the process (where the technical details should be) is covered in a simplistic short paragraph without even a comment about where clarifications should be sought.


This is the main point I think. The actual document is not very well put to gether and there are a few ways to read each point that actually is covered. Personally I believe CCP needs to put MUCH more effort into creating a working guideline for the CSM rather than expecting them to come up with it themselves. Especially seeing as some of the council seem to trying to be as devisive as possible.

Illaria
Gallente
Posted - 2008.05.22 15:33:00 - [362]
 

Originally by: Gorobom
Edited by: Gorobom on 22/05/2008 15:13:22
Originally by: Illaria
I always loved to read Goonswarms own delusions of grandeur. Thanks for providing me with new entertainment. This is all quite delicious. Very Happy

I think this sea of Goonswarm tears could have only been surpassed if SirMolle himself would have been elected to chairman.


Quite funny that he didn't even sign up, uh?

That is a horrible troll because you have no idea what you're talking about. It's common agreement that SirMolle, having a deep knowledge of 0.0 issues would be a much better Chairman. Goons and BoB may be enemies but they have exactly the same concerns and issues.

Recently Dianabolic signed up in the SA Forums. Although there are many things the alliances disagree, there is a lot in common when it would come as valid gameplay concerns.


Didn't you know it? Shocked

Jade is Molles roleplaying alt. Thus he ochastrated the GNW. Dude, this is common knowledge in the community since 2005. Next thing you'll do is probably installing TT as a director for your capital program.

Oh and yes and I agree, Dianabolic signing up to a forum community of 117k users of which the Goonswarm represents only a tiny amount is a sure sign of some hot manly BoB on Goon love. I'm sure they have a lot of e-respect for you.

Though I admit that Diana is probably indeed the most Goon like of the BoB celebrities. Wink

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.22 15:34:00 - [363]
 

Originally by: Hugh Ruka

It does not say anything about you changing elected members of the council for the runner-ups.



No elected members of the council are being changed. Its a a responsibility of the Chair to oversee an "internal vote" to assign the remaining council positions. This is what I'm doing. If it doesn't happen by Saturday I'd have an appointment authority to simply put people in the positions so I'm actually pushing to do this soon so it can be voted on. If Darius is unable to register a vote on these appointments I'll ask the first alternate to vote in his place. Its pretty simple.


Vio Geraci
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.22 15:37:00 - [364]
 

Originally by: Heartstone
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy
The problem is that CCP are completely inept when it comes to writing clear documentation. The CSM.pdf contains 13 pages of roleplay/metagame waffle that no one is going to read and is no consequence and then each step of the process (where the technical details should be) is covered in a simplistic short paragraph without even a comment about where clarifications should be sought.


This is the main point I think. The actual document is not very well put to gether and there are a few ways to read each point that actually is covered. Personally I believe CCP needs to put MUCH more effort into creating a working guideline for the CSM rather than expecting them to come up with it themselves. Especially seeing as some of the council seem to trying to be as devisive as possible.


For example, there is no way to precipitate a vote of no confidence in the council leader in the case of mental illness or other incapacitating factor.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.22 15:37:00 - [365]
 

Originally by: Darius JOHNSON

You cannot call anyone into place to vote in my stead, as I have not chosen to not attend an official meeting of the CSM. You've made a thread for the voting and that is where the voting will take place. Publicly, where a council vote should take place.


Cool if you do now want to vote then thats excellent. Little less amateur dramatics would be nice next time though.

Erotic Irony
0bsession
Posted - 2008.05.22 15:38:00 - [366]
 

Originally by: Vio Geraci
Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy
The problem is that CCP are completely inept when it comes to writing clear documentation. The CSM.pdf contains 13 pages of roleplay/metagame waffle that no one is going to read and is no consequence and then each step of the process (where the technical details should be) is covered in a simplistic short paragraph without even a comment about where clarifications should be sought.


Good thing we've got Jade Constantine to fill in the blanks!


At first I thought CSM was a ruse

but this thread,

Kelsin
Dirt Dog Trading Company
Posted - 2008.05.22 15:38:00 - [367]
 

Clearly the most sensible solution is for one of the first CSM actions to be proposing a change to the process for selecting the Chairman from the current system of highest vote-getter to a new internal council vote. Jade seems to have gone so far as to say that once that change is passed, he'll have the current Council go back and take a vote to internally select a Chairman according to the newly passed rules.

Anybody trying to make anything else out of it is barking up the wrong tree.

Waterfowl Democracy
The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.22 15:42:00 - [368]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON

You cannot call anyone into place to vote in my stead, as I have not chosen to not attend an official meeting of the CSM. You've made a thread for the voting and that is where the voting will take place. Publicly, where a council vote should take place.


Cool if you do now want to vote then thats excellent. Little less amateur dramatics would be nice next time though.



Darius is the one with the amateur dramatics? If you'll look back a page you'll clearly see someone with a name and avatar very similar to yours threatening Darius with losing his votes in the Vice etc. voting if he doesn't show up for an INFORMAL CSM meeting that you have unilaterally decided to hold at almost zero notice DESPITE not having the authority to do so.

What you fail to understand is that not everyone who ran for CSM is a self-employed 39 year old software programmer with nothing going on his life other than roleplaying as a female sex slave in an spaceship MMORPG. Not every one of your collegues has time to write page after page of bad fake medieval fiction.

If anyone here is guilty of dramatics (amateur or otherwise) it is you.

Gorobom
Posted - 2008.05.22 15:42:00 - [369]
 

Quote:
Little less amateur dramatics would be nice next time though.


Like the ones you're causing by trying to abuse your chairman's power?

Idaeus
Posted - 2008.05.22 15:44:00 - [370]
 

Originally by: Heartstone
Especially seeing as some of the council seem to trying to be as devisive as possible.

I know, right? A member of the council is openly saying he'll ignore any concerns from some members of the playerbase. Those are some pretty divisive, or should I say discriminatory, statements.

BAteh
Penumbra Congregatio
Posted - 2008.05.22 15:44:00 - [371]
 

Congratulations, Jade.

Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.22 15:48:00 - [372]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON

You cannot call anyone into place to vote in my stead, as I have not chosen to not attend an official meeting of the CSM. You've made a thread for the voting and that is where the voting will take place. Publicly, where a council vote should take place.


Cool if you do now want to vote then thats excellent. Little less amateur dramatics would be nice next time though.



Do not put words in my mouth. Especially as they are plainly written here for all to see. I said I won't be attending your informal meeting to discuss items which are beyond your purview. Nowhere did I state I would not vote in the thread which was posted for the voting. I will attend officially sanctioned meetings, which are the only meetings where a vote can take place. That is it and that is all. Your attempts to color the statement otherwise and be amateurishly insulting though are noted.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.22 15:49:00 - [373]
 

Originally by: Idaeus
I know, right? A member of the council is openly saying he'll ignore any concerns from some members of the playerbase. Those are some pretty divisive, or should I say discriminatory, statements.


As an eve player I have no obligation to pay attention to people I consider don't behave with appropriate maturity and good manners. Nothing in the responsibilities of CSM rep (or chairman) change that level of obligation. I will happily talk to anyone who carries themselves in a respectful and decent manner. Can't really say fairer than that.



Dingi223
Posted - 2008.05.22 15:49:00 - [374]
 

This is fantastic, congrats Jade. GS, this may be a good time to take a step back and consider the cards that have been dealt. Voting was done by the players, you got dealt a hand, and if things don't work out, the players will realise and the CSM voting process will change next time.

Personally I applaude Jade for taking a firm stance. I wish the chairman had the power to veto votes. I didn't vote for neutrality, I voted for change.

Individually I am sure you are all great people, however, what your alliance stands for has simply made me stand against everything that you stand for. Including all the tears and drivel you wish to spawn here.

Dingi223
Posted - 2008.05.22 15:53:00 - [375]
 

Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
I will attend officially sanctioned meetings, which are the only meetings where a vote can take place. That is it and that is all. Your attempts to color the statement otherwise and be amateurishly insulting though are noted.


a.k.a: I will not make any attempt to go above and beyond any formal requirements I have, and will do the absolute minimum I must to meet the CSM requirements, which is the only forum I have any power in. I will not make any attempt to discuss matters called by the chair outside of these official forums. I want to change EVE in a manner I want, and I don't really care about the larger group.

Personally Darius, I think you and any Goonie representative as chair would not make an "inclusive" CSM. Jade has clearly indicated her stance, her beliefs, and it didn't include neutrality. Use your vote, good luck.

Vio Geraci
Amarr
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.22 15:54:00 - [376]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
As an eve player I have no obligation to pay attention to people I consider don't behave with appropriate maturity and good manners. Nothing in the responsibilities of CSM rep (or chairman) change that level of obligation. I will happily talk to anyone who carries themselves in a respectful and decent manner. Can't really say fairer than that.



Even people you consider your social lessers deserve representation in a democracy. Perhaps because you are not from a democracy, you do not understand this fundamental aspect of democratic political systems.

Claire Lacombe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.22 15:54:00 - [377]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Idaeus
I know, right? A member of the council is openly saying he'll ignore any concerns from some members of the playerbase. Those are some pretty divisive, or should I say discriminatory, statements.


As an eve player I have no obligation to pay attention to people I consider don't behave with appropriate maturity and good manners. Nothing in the responsibilities of CSM rep (or chairman) change that level of obligation. I will happily talk to anyone who carries themselves in a respectful and decent manner. Can't really say fairer than that.





You're not just an Eve player any more Jade. You're chairman of the CSM. Why not drop the obviously childish ****.

Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.22 15:59:00 - [378]
 

Edited by: Darius JOHNSON on 22/05/2008 16:00:03
Originally by: Dingi223
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
I will attend officially sanctioned meetings, which are the only meetings where a vote can take place. That is it and that is all. Your attempts to color the statement otherwise and be amateurishly insulting though are noted.


a.k.a: I will not make any attempt to go above and beyond any formal requirements I have, and will do the absolute minimum I must to meet the CSM requirements, which is the only forum I have any power in. I will not make any attempt to discuss matters called by the chair outside of these official forums. I want to change EVE in a manner I want, and I don't really care about the larger group.

Personally Darius, I think you and any Goonie representative as chair would not make an "inclusive" CSM. Jade has clearly indicated her stance, her beliefs, and it didn't include neutrality. Use your vote, good luck.


Now you are putting words in my mouth. I said I wouldn't attend the Chair's shadow meeting of no consequence (of which I was not in any way that I can determine notified. Interestingly enough there has been no formal communication or notification medium defined). Official meetings, the forum, talking to other players, that is all within the role of the CSM. Instead of attempting to redefine the CSM, perhaps we could get to work doing what we were tasked to?

I'll also note that it is Jade, not myself who has chosen to not include ANY portion of the playerbase. I've actually been quite open, and have shown myself as quite open to ANYONE'S suggestions. Now you're welcome to come to your own conclusions and I respect your opinions, but redefining the CSM isn't the CSM's responsibility. Attempting to define me is clearly going to require more research on your part.

Dingi223
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:01:00 - [379]
 

Originally by: Vio Geraci
Even people you consider your social lessers deserve representation in a democracy. Perhaps because you are not from a democracy, you do not understand this fundamental aspect of democratic political systems.


Are you implying that the UK political system is less democratic than the US electoral college, invalidating votes in states, where you can become president even after losing the popular vote? The same country that Darius is from, who clearly, must be MUCH more experienced in "democratic political systems"?

What drivel is this?

Gorobom
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:01:00 - [380]
 

Edited by: Gorobom on 22/05/2008 16:03:44
Originally by: Dingi223
Voting was done by the players, you got dealt a hand, and if things don't work out, the players will realise and the CSM voting process will change next time.


While this is reasonably true, not everyone is willing to wait for months of terrible gameplay decisions happy. GS still represents around 1/5 of the CSM though.

Also players usually don't really know how to make good decisions because they're short-sighted, as this whole election has clearly proved. I'm happy that in the end of the day the real decisions will be made by the professionals with a greater insight of what works and what doesn't.

Quote:
Personally I applaude Jade for taking a firm stance. I wish the chairman had the power to veto votes. I didn't vote for neutrality, I voted for change.


You're not thinking with the right head. Sum up Darius JOHNSON's and Bane Glorious' votes and you'll realize that GS could have put any of them as chairman easily. If Chairmen had THAT much power, you wouldn't be so happy right now.

Zeoliter
Disco Biscuits
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:02:00 - [381]
 

ITT a Goon pretends to care about issues that are unrelated to Goons.

Darius, stop being a child.


Dingi223
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:04:00 - [382]
 

Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Instead of attempting to redefine the CSM, perhaps we could get to work doing what we were tasked to?


I agree. However, I see a huge number of GoonSwarm members trolling this thread complaining, and trying to throw Jade from chair. Why don't you simply just get on with the work you were tasked to do?

Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
I'll also note that it is Jade, not myself who has chosen to not include ANY portion of the playerbase. I've actually been quite open, and have shown myself as quite open to ANYONE'S suggestions. Now you're welcome to come to your own conclusions and I respect your opinions, but redefining the CSM isn't the CSM's responsibility. Attempting to define me is clearly going to require more research on your part.


If this were true, Jade would not have gotten the majority of the vote. Clearly a lot of people felt that Jade DOES include their portion of the playerbase. In fact, more people felt that Jade represented them than you. Unfortunately you can believe what you wish, state what you wish, but the votes show otherwise. Now why don't you move along and get to the work you were tasked to do.

Claire Lacombe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:05:00 - [383]
 

Originally by: Zeoliter
ITT a Goon pretends to care about issues that are unrelated to Goons.

Darius, stop being a child.




ITT a BoB member uses in game politics to make a flame post about nothing of consequence in order to try and discredit a goon who has been nothing but open on every issue and question he's been asked since he started running for a position in the CSM.

Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:05:00 - [384]
 

Originally by: Zeoliter
ITT a Goon pretends to care about issues that are unrelated to Goons.

Darius, stop being a child.




The voting's over. I don't have to pretend anything anymore. Perhaps you'll have to accept that I'm honestly interested in seeing the process work the way it's supposed to and legitimately care about Eve and the population's opinions? As far as the being a child bit, well that's simply laughable given the context and content of my responses.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:05:00 - [385]
 

Originally by: Vio Geraci

Even people you consider your social lessers deserve representation in a democracy. Perhaps because you are not from a democracy, you do not understand this fundamental aspect of democratic political systems.


You have all the representation you could need. If you have issues you are quite free to write a decent constructive post on the Assembly Hall Forum and there the Eve community will have the opportunity to discuss the matter properly and CSM reps may involve themselves or even decide to support the issue and raise it to formal CSM vote for the agenda.

Thats your option now really. But don't expect me to substantively answer any more issues on my candidacy in the Inaugural CSM session since those matters are past. And just like any other Eve player I'll maintain my rights to ignore you and your concerns if I consider they are rudely expressed and nonconstructive in this forum.

Dingi223
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:06:00 - [386]
 

Edited by: Dingi223 on 22/05/2008 16:07:30
Originally by: Gorobom
You're not thinking with the right head. Sum up Darius JOHNSON's and Bane Glorious' votes and you'll realize that GS could have put any of them as chairman easily. If Chairmen had THAT much power, you wouldn't be so happy right now.


Then why didn't they? If they wanted the chair so much, and feel that Jade makes such an undeserving chair, why didn't they seek to secure this position themselves? Next time you can obviously rectify this.

Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:08:00 - [387]
 

Originally by: Dingi223
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Instead of attempting to redefine the CSM, perhaps we could get to work doing what we were tasked to?


I agree. However, I see a huge number of GoonSwarm members trolling this thread complaining, and trying to throw Jade from chair. Why don't you simply just get on with the work you were tasked to do?

Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
I'll also note that it is Jade, not myself who has chosen to not include ANY portion of the playerbase. I've actually been quite open, and have shown myself as quite open to ANYONE'S suggestions. Now you're welcome to come to your own conclusions and I respect your opinions, but redefining the CSM isn't the CSM's responsibility. Attempting to define me is clearly going to require more research on your part.


If this were true, Jade would not have gotten the majority of the vote. Clearly a lot of people felt that Jade DOES include their portion of the playerbase. In fact, more people felt that Jade represented them than you. Unfortunately you can believe what you wish, state what you wish, but the votes show otherwise. Now why don't you move along and get to the work you were tasked to do.


Point of clarification: Jade did not get the majority of the votes. Jade got the most votes of an individual. No one person achieved the majority of the votes.

I don't control goons. They are free to post whatever, wherever and however they like. I was responding to what I perceived as an attempt to change the rules. I don't see how that's beyond my scope of responsibility. Especially given that I was threatened with disenfranchisement by someone who is clearly without the authority to do so.

Waterfowl Democracy
The Ministry of Indigenous Affairs
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:12:00 - [388]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
But don't expect me to substantively answer any more issues on my candidacy in the Inaugural CSM session since those matters are past.



If you read the CSM document one more time you'll see that any single Representative can table a topic for discussion and it must be discussed. There is no veto for extra special Chairs. You could I suppose refuse to participate in the discussion of that topic but that would surely be counterproductive.

Yggdrassill Yeltsin
The Greater Goon
Clockwork Pineapple
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:12:00 - [389]
 

Edited by: Yggdrassill Yeltsin on 22/05/2008 16:15:47
Edited by: Yggdrassill Yeltsin on 22/05/2008 16:14:53
Originally by: Jade Constantine


Thats your option now really. But don't expect me to substantively answer any more issues on my candidacy in the Inaugural CSM session since those matters are past. And just like any other Eve player I'll maintain my rights to ignore you and your concerns if I consider they are rudely expressed and nonconstructive in this forum.



Does this mean we are going to ignore the promise you made to step down as chairman?

In any case, all of this arguing is irrelevant. In the EXTREMELY UNLIKELY case that the council has any meaningful power whatsoever, CCP are STILL not complete morons- issues related only to small subsets of gamers to the exclusion of other large subsets will not be high on their priority list. I urge the council not to condemn itself to irrelevance by pushing pet issues- CCP can and will lose interest quickly if you guys fight amongst yourselves and fail to present an intelligent, unified front on issues that matter to players.

The CSM is a dog and pony show that CCP will be able to draw any useful, broadranging ideas from if they so choose. Larking off about how you're going to ignore immature players and focus on your own issues isn't going to get anything done with CCP any more than if a 0.0 player had been elected and wanted to go larking off in that direction.

Idaeus
Posted - 2008.05.22 16:12:00 - [390]
 

Originally by: Zeoliter
ITT a Goon pretends to care about issues that are unrelated to Goons.

We're an extremely large alliance and have members all over the game doing all manner of activities. There is no issue that is unrelated to us, as we're doing it all.


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