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Eternal Hatred
Amarr
Pantsu Garu Limited Technologies
Posted - 2008.04.28 20:15:00 - [1]
 

Hello,

Currently if you wan't to wardec an alliance, you get slapped with hefty CONCORD bribe bill.

After "Alliance P nerf", having a good empire war has been .. well hard. How do you view current system of wardecs? Do you think they should be lowered so you can dec with lower cost? How about restriction only 3 wars per corporate (not alliance) is valid or not?

Thanks, Your local (banned) forum troll.

Nickaelhoop
Minmatar
Concordance Extraction Corporation
Posted - 2008.04.28 21:38:00 - [2]
 

I think the current system in place is adequate for the majority of players and alliances.

The way I see it is that it gives you sufficient thought as to who you would want to "wardec" and is it the right thing to do? It also allows you to concentrate your members during important conflicts (obviously this doesn't apply to major alliaces with HUGE numbers of corporations involved) instead of them being spread out thinly fighting 20 other alliances.

As for the cost I have never seen the bill, can anyone give me a price?

Omber Zombie
Gallente
Frontier Technologies
Posted - 2008.04.28 22:15:00 - [3]
 

you'll probably hate me for this, but I personally think the price of current wardecs is minuscule compared to the isk that is flowing into the economy at the moment. The cost of setting up an alliance used to be a major effort, now it can be achieved within a month by a single player. When you take all that into consideration, the way the wardec system is structured around an isk value makes no sense any more unless it scales with eve's economy - which it isn't and would soon make it impossible for the poor to wardec the rich.

So, I think a new war dec system needs to be implemented - I have no idea what it should be, isk does need to be involved, but maybe base it around the sovereignty system in that it's x amount of isk per system controlled to wardec an alliance with a minimum base amount. Empire based corps/alliances are then cheaper to wardec, whereas disrupting 0.0 alliances empire work becomes slightly more expensive and gives a reason for alliances to contest for 0.0 space. Again, it's only an idea (and one I just thought up randomly), but a decent discussion about it has been needed for a while now.

Nickaelhoop
Minmatar
Concordance Extraction Corporation
Posted - 2008.04.28 22:21:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Omber Zombie
you'll probably hate me for this...


Every point is valid, albeit good or bad Smile.

As some people may have guessed from my post I don't really have an idea of the system at the moment (I openly admit that and I guess it is one con of age of my character and my knowledge).

That a good idea Omber Zombie, It shows you have a working knowledge and a possible solution to a problem.

Personally I think more ideas should be conceived to help players, not to make it easier for them to be blown to bits, just my 2 isk Smile.

MongWen
Xeno Tech Corp
Self Destruct.
Posted - 2008.04.28 22:31:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Eternal Hatred
Hello,

Currently if you wan't to wardec an alliance, you get slapped with hefty CONCORD bribe bill.

After "Alliance P nerf", having a good empire war has been .. well hard. How do you view current system of wardecs? Do you think they should be lowered so you can dec with lower cost? How about restriction only 3 wars per corporate (not alliance) is valid or not?

Thanks, Your local (banned) forum troll.


Interesting topic,

Corp level: I donít think the current war dec system is 100% good, main reasons is that the Corp that gets deced can avoid it to easily, and the aggressor can withdraw form the war even if the war is set to mutual (in cases the corp they deced is to strong for them to handle).

Alliance level: Most off the alliance on alliance fighting is out in 0.0 and there you really donít need a war dec. As for empire wars it is totally different since there are no real way to set a goal for the war (for both corp level and alliance level).

As for costs they are fine as they are, though I like Omber Zombieís idea (though it is just tossed out there).

Restriction is there due to a reason, though it should he higher than 3 active decs form a corp, and still be unlimited for alliances. Maybe a small boost for active wars from a corp form 3 to 5 ?

Eternal Hatred
Amarr
Pantsu Garu Limited Technologies
Posted - 2008.04.29 12:49:00 - [6]
 

I speak as a entity who wants to wardec others, not to avoid them. Thats other debate.

I want that single corp can wardec more than silly 3 corps/alliances and in alliance, wardec prices shouldn't rise 50m/100m/150m/200m .. etc steps because having a few wars going on, will soon cost ONE BILLION each week and as a poor griefer alliance, thats ALOT! Rich 0.0 alliances can abuse empire space while poor people cannot get dips on their wealth in form of PvP-loot.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.04.29 14:59:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Jade Constantine on 29/04/2008 15:00:16

On the whole I think wardec fees are to high. The reason for this has nothing much to do with veteran players (since we can all afford to throw a couple of hundred million at a wardec for a week or so). But it does negatively impact starting war-corps and junior pvpers who can be priced out of the market and forced to do pve and mission/rat grinding just to raise the stake for a wardec against an alliance.

However. I do think there is also a problem with the war-dec system in and of itself and the lack of objectives/win conditions makes it currently a tired old mechanic that more often than not becomes a way for people to score the occassional kill and go to ground with no consequence.

I'd like to see the wardec fees made cheaper. But in combination with an actual resolution/win mechanic that determines the result of the war. If a corporation wardecs a target and loses 75% of the engagements if should probably be awarded a "loss" and prevented from a re-war-dec for a month. If the exchange remains even-ish (25-75%) war can continue. If they actually "win" they get awarded the victory and some kind of "victory boon" against the target for a month (maybe 1% tax rate directly scooped from losers wallet for the month as "reparations").

Obviously this ties into some of the ideas in my CSM manifesto and would have a role for mercenaries involving themselves in the war and having a direct affect on the war stats.

Summary.

Yes, I think war-costs should be cheaper because at the moment they unfairly penalize starting pvp'ers who want an early war with their first corps. (And since eve is an open pvp game that sells itself on these options and alternatives this is a bad thing.)

But - War System needs work. And definitely needs a resolution mechanic to decide who wins or loses to prevent declared wars from dragging on forever without resolution. (As they can do when veteran player finances come into the equation).

Rooker
Lysian Enterprises
Posted - 2008.04.29 23:12:00 - [8]
 

What are the candidates' opinion of this little nugget I just pulled out of.... *ahem* ... anyway...

CCP refuses to classify as an exploit the entire membership of a wardecced corp hopping to a newly created corp to avoid the wardec. So, let's change it so that, if several members (or a large percentage) of your target corp end up in another, you can dec this other corp free of charge.

I don't mean in cases where a few people bolt from corp A and end up in corp B. I mean where 24 people leave a 25 person corp and all 24 end up in corp C, which incidently happens to have 24 new members who joined up the same day it was created. I've had that happen to me and it was very annoying. At one point, I felt like I had half of Verge Vendor under a wardec trying to keep up with it.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.04.29 23:17:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Rooker
What are the candidates' opinion of this little nugget I just pulled out of.... *ahem* ... anyway...

CCP refuses to classify as an exploit the entire membership of a wardecced corp hopping to a newly created corp to avoid the wardec. So, let's change it so that, if several members (or a large percentage) of your target corp end up in another, you can dec this other corp free of charge.

I don't mean in cases where a few people bolt from corp A and end up in corp B. I mean where 24 people leave a 25 person corp and all 24 end up in corp C, which incidently happens to have 24 new members who joined up the same day it was created. I've had that happen to me and it was very annoying. At one point, I felt like I had half of Verge Vendor under a wardec trying to keep up with it.


I've never liked war-dec evasion by corp-hopping (while the declared on corp refuses to formally surrender and agree terms). The idea I express in the post both above could probably solve this if you made actual corp membership part of the win conditions for a basic war - too many jump ship and the war will be over with a victory awarded to the aggressor. The defeated corp pays "reparations" in some form. If people want to avoid paying even that then the corp could go bankrupt and be struck off perhaps. Detail needs adding to this proposal in formal discussion and brainstorming - but the principle is to bring resolution to wars through what actually happens in game.




MongWen
Xeno Tech Corp
Self Destruct.
Posted - 2008.04.29 23:58:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Eternal Hatred
I speak as a entity who wants to wardec others, not to avoid them. Thats other debate.

I want that single corp can wardec more than silly 3 corps/alliances and in alliance, wardec prices shouldn't rise 50m/100m/150m/200m .. etc steps because having a few wars going on, will soon cost ONE BILLION each week and as a poor griefer alliance, thats ALOT! Rich 0.0 alliances can abuse empire space while poor people cannot get dips on their wealth in form of PvP-loot.


Well any chances must affect both sides, and having dished out a few millions to dec a Corp only to find out that everyone or close to everyone has left and created a new corp, and starts doing the same thing that caused you to dec them in the first place. Does that sound right ?

Now I agree that the last war dec fee nerf was a bit harsh, but changing the fees without having the game mechanics in place to achieve something by having a war does not help much.

Snowmore
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY
Tribal Conclave
Posted - 2008.04.30 18:30:00 - [11]
 

I loved the idea of "reparations" if a war is lost.

On the topic of the price, why not make it relative? The agressor prices escalate acording to its size versus the size of the defender.

This size measurement could be sum of assets, of skill points, or maybe even standing with the local sovereign.

Sounds reasonable?

MongWen
Xeno Tech Corp
Self Destruct.
Posted - 2008.04.30 19:00:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: MongWen on 30/04/2008 19:03:38
Originally by: Snowmore
I loved the idea of "reparations" if a war is lost.

On the topic of the price, why not make it relative? The agressor prices escalate acording to its size versus the size of the defender.

This size measurement could be sum of assets, of skill points, or maybe even standing with the local sovereign.

Sounds reasonable?

This can limit the war system to the rich guys, and size of members can be explited by adding trial alts that just sit there to push up the price of the war, and make it to expensive for the war.

Edit:
How does one define assets of a corp/alliance? by the items in the corp hangers or the assets of all members personal assets?

and how will the standings work into it corp or personal ? since corp standings are lower than normal. and some corps dont have standings how does that count into the war fee?

Snowmore
SUPERNOVA SOCIETY
Tribal Conclave
Posted - 2008.04.30 19:30:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Snowmore on 30/04/2008 19:55:07
Edited by: Snowmore on 30/04/2008 19:37:12
The number can be refined however you could make it work.

You could take trial accounts out of the skill points sum (or lower than Xmil points for instance).

Assets gets tricky as if either member or hangars isk net values could make mule accounts a viable escape.

For standings, the corp standings. If the people that run the place like the one you wanna punch better, or the other way around, affecting the price of a wardec seems only fair.

Such a wardec would be confined to a region or to said faction sovereign space perhaps? For full empire fight use Concord standing?

Edit: Anyway, not to steal the thunder here. The thread is to find candidates opnions on the wardec system, not mineEmbarassed.

MongWen
Xeno Tech Corp
Self Destruct.
Posted - 2008.04.30 20:05:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Snowmore

The number can be refined however you could make it work.

You could take trial accounts out of the skill points sum (or lower than Xmil points for instance).

Assets gets tricky as if either member or hangars isk net values could make mule accounts a viable escape.

For standings, the corp standings. If the people that run the place like the one you wanna punch better, or the other way around, affecting the price of a wardec seems only fair.

Such a wardec would be confined to a region or to said faction sovereign space perhaps? For full empire fight use Concord standing?


My honest opinion is that it will no work much due to the potential for both sides to push the fees up or down on both sides, and make it more off a isk sink to use on a mechanic that as I see it is not working as intended.

Now numbers on what a lets say a 50 person corp and all of them has around 10-20 mil sp, as for assets lets say 50-60 bill total (both in corp assets and personal assets). How much would that cost? (aggressing corp is half of everything of the target corp)

Who wants to pay 2-50 mil (or more) for a war that does not happen when the target can disband within the first 24 after the after the dec mail is sent to them, and recreate a new corp and start doing the same thing without any drawbacks.


 

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