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blankseplocked LONG range artilery/bombing - Big Blob Killer (idea/suggestion)
 
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Pliauga
Gallente
Posted - 2008.04.25 11:51:00 - [1]
 

Hello again,


Vague intro: If you want the general picture just skip to "main part", read this l8r.
This is a suggestion to revive large long range area of efect (AOE) weapons. How, in my mind they should discourage big blobs (BB). And, most importantly how that would help fight the everpowerfull/evergrowing laggfest that are Large Fleet Engagements.
This is my take on how a well prepared few could seriously oppose a steamroling.
This is not meant to be endgame, or overpowering, and is designed to be easilly opposed.
Many ideas of what is posted here came from this locked thread. This is just my interpretation of it. I take no credit for those ideas.
-----

Main part:


1. A general concept of the new weapons system:

  • The general idea is a ship mounted weapons system that can conduct low precision large area bombardment, from a very long range (somewhere/anywhere within a system and/or even from another system that is very close by.)


  • The ship would need to remain stationary during operation and for some time afterwords. Unable to move or warp, like in siege mode. So it would need to be defended, eliminating hit and run tactics.


  • The pilot should not be able to fire the weapon on his own whim. The target zone would have to be broadcasted to the artillery ship by a special target designator ship(recons, or covert ops ships could fullfill this role with some new module).


  • The blast would have a large area of efect (say 50km radius). Would cause less damage than a Stealth Bomber bomb. And would be very sensitive to signature radius of affected ships, so that a BS would have better chance to pop than a frig.
    (This is to make sure this wouldn't be a mini doomsday that would clear out all small ships from the battlefield)

------

2. The deatails/mechanisms to avoid abuse

The whole point of this weapon is to be efective against big blobs, the bigger the blob, the more damage the artillery strike will cause. And it's not meant to destroy the blob, but to disolve it. Making it sensless to remain on the battlefield. We had Titans destroying blobs, look how that turned out, no need to repeat it.

When the salvo had been fired, it doesn't instantly strike, there is a significant delay(10 - 45 seconds). It comes in as if going through warp (as it technically will be). And all the people within the bombarded area will get an instant notice ("INCOMING BOMBARDMENT"), thus giving the chance to scatter.

In order to make its' use less atractive against individual ships, the single salvo from that ship should be very costly. Much more costly than the Stealth Bomber bomb. And as mentioned, doing less damage. And it could not be a surprise pop, as all the ships in the AOE will get a notification of what is about to happen. And the strike would have a "bad" accuracy, variating about 20km from the original designated ground zero.

P.O.S. warfare. We have dreads for that. P.O.S. warfare mechanisms are well established (for better or worse). So the artillery ship SHOULD NOT:
1) Be able to cause any damage to the P.O.S. (either giving the P.O.S. imunity from bombardment, or forbiding to broadcast any targets closer than 250km from any P.O.S.)
2) Be able to enter "siege mode"/"atack mode" anywhere close (250km) to a P.O.S. (I hope that's self explanatory).

The ship itself should be relativelly easy to take out. So it would need to be heavily defended and supported. As this is a totally new mechanic, the ship could be either a new Tech2 (Tier3 BS), or a dreadnauoght with a new module (replacing all the turrets), or a Tier2 dreadnought. You choose.

Please discuss/comment

Pliauga
Gallente
Posted - 2008.04.25 11:53:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Pliauga on 27/04/2008 07:02:35
Edited by: Pliauga on 27/04/2008 06:42:30
(reserved, and I ran out of space up there)
I know I missed something, and that the very concept is skidish at best. But I think it's worth a second shot on these forums.

EDIT - After reading the posts of Jason Edwards and J'Mkarr Soban (prior to 2008.04.26) I noticed I was unclear in my proposal (thnx guys). So a little clarification if I may:

a) Firing a single salvo from this ship should be an equivalent to waving a big banner saying "I'm right here, please come and shoot me". So there is no need to find the guy. The problem is just getting to him.

b) After firing, the artillery ship would remain imobilised for a period of time long enough for the opposition to get to him, and atack him.
-----
This is a post about LONG range anti-fleet bombardment and how it could be feasible and not overpowered. Please be constructive.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2008.04.25 14:22:00 - [3]
 

Cool, but..

Blobing will never end by application of the stick!

Only the carrot is able to change mentality of people.

In other words, making tools for killing blobs wont make people not blob. Only way is giving advantages for not blobbing. Theonly advantage not completely artificial you could use is stealth. Unfortunately stealth is IMPOSSIBLE due to local.

So do not even start dreaming on solving blobs without removing local.

Ellaine TashMurkon
CBC Interstellar
Tactical Narcotics Team
Posted - 2008.04.25 15:45:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 25/04/2008 15:49:03
There is one problem with AOE anti blob weapons, alreday visible with Titans and DD - nerfing a BS blob means boosting capital blobs and capitals in general. Simply because tons of BSes are currently the only cost-effective counter to a fleet of capitals.

In fact its not 400 BSes that needs "solving", its 50 spider tanked carriers.

Besides that, a capital ship shooting SB bombs that warp is a cool idea :)

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2008.04.25 16:00:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon
Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 25/04/2008 15:49:03
There is one problem with AOE anti blob weapons, alreday visible with Titans and DD - nerfing a BS blob means boosting capital blobs and capitals in general. Simply because tons of BSes are currently the only cost-effective counter to a fleet of capitals.

In fact its not 400 BSes that needs "solving", its 50 spider tanked carriers.

Besides that, a capital ship shooting SB bombs that warp is a cool idea :)


What if the munition type was a form of ECM burst? AoE weapons neednt be purely damaged based so bombarding an area with specialized ECM submunitions could break the target lock of capitals hence disrupting spider tanks to a degree.

C.


Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2008.04.25 16:09:00 - [6]
 

Quote:
This is a suggestion to revive large long range area of efect (AOE) weapons.

bombs?

Quote:
The general idea is a ship mounted weapons system that can conduct low precision large area bombardment, from a very long range (somewhere/anywhere within a system and/or even from another system that is very close by.)

ROFL what? firstly drop the idea of "from another system" that'll never happen.

Second somewhere in the system? Well no. How about long range being like 100-150km maybe at max.

Quote:
The ship would need to remain stationary during operation and for some time afterwords. Unable to move or warp, like in siege mode. So it would need to be defended, eliminating hit and run tactics.

Not bad.

Quote:
The pilot should not be able to fire the weapon on his own whim. The target zone would have to be broadcasted to the artillery ship by a special target designator ship(recons, or covert ops ships could fullfill this role with some new module).

I like this. One of the biggest things with awacs is that say an F-18 fighter could be so far away from the target that it's radar doesn't see the target but the awacs does. The awacs can upload the data too the fighter to fire the weapon.

Quote:
The blast would have a large area of efect (say 50km radius). Would cause less damage than a Stealth Bomber bomb. And would be very sensitive to signature radius of affected ships, so that a BS would have better chance to pop than a frig. (This is to make sure this wouldn't be a mini doomsday that would clear out all small ships from the battlefield)

Fair enough.

Alright my idea is basically similar. It's the bigger brother of the stealth bomber. I'm not sure which size hull of ship it ought to use. Perhaps simply a new Recon ship. No newer skills technically to fly the hull. The cruiser can equip 3 citadel launchers. Which the ship's bonuses decrease the citadel explosion radius down to about 400-500m so roughly BS size.

The same ship also has the ability to equip said bomb launchers which aren't activated in the same manner as the stealth bomber. They don't fly very far but they go nice and slow and do some nice damage.

With the citadel launchers they would need near max skills to be capable of doing significant damage to battleships while being utterly crappy ships against anything smaller. They could do some good damage against battleships. 1 volley and an untanked battleship would loose their shields.

Which seems decently balanced because about 3 stealth bombers can team up and 3 volleys to take out a cruiser or so. The obvious difference is the speed of the torps. They are so mega slow. Explosion velocity for citadel torps is about 125m/s which battleship + afterburner is much faster then that and you'd expect to do almost no damage. Capitals on the otherhand dont go faster.

I think it's a great option.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2008.04.25 17:04:00 - [7]
 

Theres actually a suggestion very much like this one on the SHC forums - essentially suggesting Dreads as the 'artillery' ship engaging from several AU away and its got some good support. Def an idea in here.

C.


Buckyballs
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.04.25 17:26:00 - [8]
 

Actually the idea is appealling, not just from anti-blob but just another dynamic to fleet fighting. I have a few suggestions.

Require the use of target painters to lase the intended target. That way it will take teamwork and risk to your support ships. No paint no artillery. Although in this instance the smaller ships would probably not be killed by the explosion, the fact that they have to lase the target and keep it painted for the duration of the firing cycle would take some coordination. Probably multiple painting ships (Electronic attacks ships, Vigils, recons... anything with target painting bonuses). The standard ships would work ok too but they might be within the blast range :-)

Remove the bombing from another system thing. I think that's too over-the-top. Keeping range in check with time and accuracy is important. If you want your artillery ship in sight of the enemy blob you would get good accuracy. Outside visual range the accuracy should be reduced by say 2km per AU. Time to target should be something like 2 sec per AU. This way the farther you are away the longer your painters will have to survive and less likley you are to hit "center mass".

I think these 2 options may balance this a bit more.

The only other thing I could add is the on the defense side. How about the possibilty of formation warp. That may help prevent the pileup you get when in a gang warp. If people come out of warp in predetermined locations fleets could avaoid that bubble of ships and have key ships at the right ranges.

Pliauga
Gallente
Posted - 2008.04.26 08:23:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Kagura Nikon
...

The idea behind this proposal is to impose some type limit to how big fleet battles can grow, by applying the "all egs in one basket" principle. And to encourage big fleet battles to spread out accros several systems: the main battle, and several smaller battles at sieged artillery ships.
Although I agree with you, a carrot would be better, I just can't think of one.
-----
Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon
...

Ok, I understand that.
How about this then:
It's not a bomb that causes a specific amount/type of damage, but let's say a cosmic rift that causes gravitational waves that(this would be very hard to balance) causes a percentage of damage from the total hitpoints of the ship to all ships in the blob, with only minor/random fluctuations.
But maybe this would be too crazy.
-----
Originally by: Cailais
...

Good idea. But motherships do that allready. It's called "Remote ECM Burst". Admitedly it's only efective from 150 km distance. But give it the same deployment method that I've proposed and it just might do the job.
Thnx.
Originally by: Jason Edwards
ROFL what? firstly drop the idea of "from another system" that'll never happen.

But that's the whole point of this thread. If you keep such a weapon on the same grid, it will do nothing to spread out fleets or reduce lag. Unless CCP will actually implement that mechanic where a single system is managed by several servers.

And besides, shooting from another system had been in the game before (although unintended) - the titan firing a DD through a cyno portal. It got removed cause it was severelly overpowered and impossible to counter.

What I suggest here is easy to counter and is not overpowered (if balanced properly). If it is introduced to the game, i'd actually like to see it pre-nerfed at first and then gradually put to full efect with time as people get used to it.

And as for your proposal, it's in efect an anti-capital HAC. Interesting idea in itself, but nowhere close to what is being proposed here.

Xzanos
Sniper Fleet Death Squad
Posted - 2008.04.26 17:58:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon
Edited by: Ellaine TashMurkon on 25/04/2008 15:49:03
There is one problem with AOE anti blob weapons, alreday visible with Titans and DD - nerfing a BS blob means boosting capital blobs and capitals in general. Simply because tons of BSes are currently the only cost-effective counter to a fleet of capitals.

In fact its not 400 BSes that needs "solving", its 50 spider tanked carriers.

Besides that, a capital ship shooting SB bombs that warp is a cool idea :)


the problem is not blobs there is nothing wrong with blobs they do cause lag and that is the problem. changing how people play the game is not the answer to lag.

systems where huge fleet battles are going to occur should be preped for them.
there should be nothing else that goes on in the system. all npc's should be stoped
absolutly everything besides the battle should be haulted.

i know that there are other thing that could be done but that is all i can think of atm that wouldnt remove some of the visual effects of the game.


Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
Spreadsheets Online
Posted - 2008.04.26 18:59:00 - [11]
 

Quote:
And besides, shooting from another system had been in the game before (although unintended) - the titan firing a DD through a cyno portal. It got removed cause it was severelly overpowered and impossible to counter. What I suggest here is easy to counter and is not overpowered (if balanced properly). If it is introduced to the game, i'd actually like to see it pre-nerfed at first and then gradually put to full efect with time as people get used to it.

except the ships you suggest being on another system completely are basically immune themselves.

You need something that has to risk it's neck. Which is what my proposal did. The same sort of mechanism can be used to fire the highly damaging area of effect weapon but it has to be in the area.

The citadel torps on the otherhand can be quite effective in deal damage to battleships which is highly effective for fleet battles.

J'Mkarr Soban
Posted - 2008.04.26 19:30:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: J''Mkarr Soban on 26/04/2008 19:34:08
Originally by: Xzanos
changing how people play the game is not the answer to lag.


It can be if the primary cause of lag can be stopped, and blobbing is it. Logic ftw!

I'm glad something along this lines got revived, and I knew which thread it was the minute I had a brief glance over.

Very long range is a no-no. The artillery ships must be able to be scanned in a reasonably short period of time. Having them across the other side of the system of a 100AU wide system is not fair.

EDIT: I'd also say what I always say about these threads - don't focus on the minutae. Talk about the vague idea, how it would be useful and beneficial. Leave the balancing up to them. When it gets announced in a patch, check the testing server, and then discuss the minutae. The less crap the dev team have to read, the better - a vauge jist of the idea is all they need. People who post entire ship-class stats and background should be shot Wink Stops the good ideas getting through. That's why you'll see the best discussions on this particular forum are the ones that are so wide-ranging and game-changing that no-one could even begin to discuss the details. Just FYI.

Pliauga
Gallente
Posted - 2008.04.27 07:01:00 - [13]
 

I have updated my "reserved" post to clarify my idea and answer the arguments put forward by Jason Edwards and J'Mkarr Soban.

I believe I have put my idea clear enough and I do believe it would be a great addition to the game if implemented carefully.


Buckyballs
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.04.28 17:25:00 - [14]
 

J'Mkarr Soban had a good point about range. The artillery ship should be easy to find. Say a range of no mare than 40 AU which would allow probers to find it with the standard probes (Observator Deep Space Probes) is just too much.

One option instead of an artillry ship is a ship-anchorable super artillery gun. And I mean "ship anchorable" as a ship deploying the gun will have to be "on station" with the gun the entire time or it becomes unanchored and scoopable by anyone. In order to deploy it you would need a hauler or other large hold capacity ship to act as a tender while it is up. Or maybe even a probing ship to detect "blobs" required to aim the gun.

Either way this thing would need to be easy to find and risky to deploy.

lecrotta
Minmatar
lecrotta Corp
Posted - 2008.04.28 18:07:00 - [15]
 

If you think the lag and desynch is bad now just wait until you fire off multiple AOE guns and have that lot processed lol.

Have you ever seen how bad things get from a DDD after its fired and how long it takes the game to process all the damage on grid and on the node. Well imagine that multiplied by how many of these new bombardment guns you fire and then wait for the node to crash.

Sepheir Sepheron
Caldari
1st Grave
Posted - 2008.04.29 02:46:00 - [16]
 

I like it, cause I hate big engagements.
/signed

Mavolio
Viziam
Posted - 2008.04.29 03:14:00 - [17]
 

It would just add an extra layer of combat that makes it even easier for bigger alliances. Big alliances would just use the BS/Cap fleet to stop ships getting to the long rang guns in the next system whlie they try and get a ship though to bomb the other long range fleet. Any side that cant bring the normal fleet + long range ships auto-lose.

Avar Davola
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.04.29 05:14:00 - [18]
 

This reminds me of a roundtable discussion at last year's Fanfest. We talked a bit about POS warfare, the main desire was to reduce lag and prevent the need for major battles to be concentrated in a single solar system. The obvious answer to this was to allow some sort of beneficial activity from another solar system. This is a major change, but why is it opposed so vehemently? If your enemies are attacking you from a neighbouring system, send some ships there and attack them!
My idea to change POS warfare was to allow the remote use of hacking, to try to take down some of the modules on the target POS. It would get a bit more use out of a skill that sounds very cool but is very underused atm.
It was similar to this idea in that there would need to be another ship in the target system lasing/probing/scanning the target POS, and the hacking ship would be in a next door system, and very vulnerable.
All in all these systems are viable, and they can be balanced. They would become available for everyone to use, and new tactics would emerge to make the best of them. As was said above, don't quibble about minutae when the broad strokes are still being debated.

Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2008.04.29 09:32:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 29/04/2008 09:36:37
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 29/04/2008 09:35:16
Though I don't know much about fleet PvP, I do like the vague idea. The specifics of course need to be worked out. That said, I have read that CCP don't like AoE in general, as it causes a lot of lag by itself... However, that's probably because they didn't take it into account in their original design. As Titans become more prevalent, they may have to adjust to that anyway...

Originally by: Xzanos
the problem is not blobs there is nothing wrong with blobs they do cause lag and that is the problem. changing how people play the game is not the answer to lag.


Sorry, you're quite wrong here. As a software engineer dealing with pushing the limits of hardware and software on a daily basis, whatever hardware you throw at the problem does not solve the problem of lag, or memory usage, or CPU usage, or anything else. It can put it off a little, but not for long.

People & play-style are the problem. Give Jita the ability to be lag-free with 1000 people in it and it'll have 5000 in it. Give fleets the ability to be 1000-strong and lag-free and someone will make a fleet of 2000. Pushing the envelope will always happen. If it didn't, lag wouldn't happen today, you'd just say 'well, more than 50 BS causes lag so we'll just take 45'. There is probably an upper limit somewhere given the number of people an alliance can muster, but it will be higher and higher as time goes by.

Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Emptiness.
Posted - 2008.04.29 15:13:00 - [20]
 

The idea of weapons firing from OTHER systems is the good thing in this whole idea. Its the only thing that would make some dilution to the blob and would add more strategy to the game.

Something like Tier 3 T2 BS. Can use Bridged Space bombs. They lock into a target in other system (don know if a cyno or whatever). And then they fire bombs trough a jump bridge. Like the SB ones. Those a few seconds later appear in the target system at a random position in a 20 km radius. 15 sec later they detonate.

Each of this platforms able to fire 2 bombs per minute. The lightyears range I am not sure, but must be short. That would be a valuable strategical tool and would force fights to be spread among a few systems. With each side having the main battle force, 1 or more Long range art support , 1 or more groups for defense of the arti support and 1 or more groups in reserve to be moved around and try to strike the enemy arti support.


It would NOT solve blob because of AOE weapons. But would help because an effective fleet would have to be spread among a few systems.

And I really doubt that would be so hard to implement. CCP just need to give the bombs the capability of jumping like capital ships have.. presto..

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2008.04.29 16:44:00 - [21]
 

How about this?

Devastators

Abomination
Characteristically of the Amarrian Empire, the Abomination was the last ship of its class to be developed, but it is more than worthy to stand alongside its peers. Rumours abound that Viziam and the Carthum Conglomerate were involved in brutal bidding wars to be allowed to develop this monster, but the task was eventually given to the Imperial Navy itself.

Amarr Devastator Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Warp Shell EM damage and 5% bonus to armour resistances per level.

Can mount the Warp Cannon and the Bombardment Mode Core.

Garm
Alarmed by the drastic increase in massed-fleet tactics the Amarr Navy displayed recently, the Republic Fleet developed the Garm as the answer - an ultra-long range artillery monster capable of delivering massive, warp-capable ordinance to targets across entire star systems. Bearing the namesake of a terrible hound of Hell, there are few who have seen it in action, even among the Amarr Empire, who would deny it that name.

Minmatar Devastator Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Warp Shell Explosive damage and 5% bonus to Warp Shell explosion radius per level.

Can mount the Warp Cannon and the Bombardment Mode Core.

Tarantula
Third in the Devastator line, the Tarantula suffers none for its late introduction to the field - Caldari engineers belonging to Lai Dai and Kaalakiota worked for months on this beast, bringing it into the world with the Caldari state's characteristic attention to function over form.

Caldari Devastator Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Warp Shell Kinetic damage and 5% reduction in Warp Shell target deviation per level.

Can mount the Warp Cannon and the Bombardment Mode Core.

Tartarus
Developed in conjunction with the Minmatar Garm, the Tartarus displays an uncommon shift away from traditional the Gallente close-range warfare ethic. Tuned to perfection to be able withstand harsh punishment while delivering warp-shell ordinance to distant targets, the appearence of this behemoth on the battlefield will surely spell doom for those unlucky enough to draw its ire.

Gallente Devastator Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Warp Shell Thermal damage and 5% bonus to Warp cannon targetting speed.

Can mount the Warp Cannon and the Bombardment Mode Core.

Modules

Warp Cannon
The Warp Cannon is capable of servicing and arming a warp shell, and propelling it across distances of many tens of AU.

Note: Can only be mounted on Devastator-class ships.

Bombardment Mode Core
The Bombardment Mode Core is capable of rerouting a Devastator's powergrid to its weapon systems, shielding, inertial stabilisers and manouvering thrusters in such a way to enable it to deal with the massive recoil and electromagnetic shockwave produced by firing a Warp Cannon. However, the ship must stay at a complete stop and disable other systems for this to work properly.

Requires 500 units of Strontium Clathrates. Levels in the Bombardment Reconfigration skill reduce this by 50 units per level.

Catastrophe shell (Explosive)
Little more than a multiple-warhead nuclear explosive encased in two hundred tons of prefragmented tungsten, this bomb makes up in punch what it lacks in finesse.

Hate shell (Thermal)
This shell is a complex plasma containment device similar to that found in hybrid charges. Upon detonation, an embedded magnetic flux device explosively distributes the plasma, wreaking havoc on those unlucky enough to be in the viscinty.

Radiance shell (EM)
This shell consists of a large number of chained EMP devices which are distributed by a small explosive charge and then detonated simultaneously. The effect is erratic and devastating.

Shredder shell (Kinetic)
This shell creates an intense graviton flux in the localised area, tearing the hulls of nearby ships to ribbons.

Andreus Ixiris
Gallente
Mixed Metaphor
Posted - 2008.04.29 16:55:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Andreus Ixiris on 29/04/2008 16:56:37
Incidentally, I would feel utterly cheated if the ships that fire this weapon and the graphics for it were not utterly awesome. The ships would be visibly built around the cannon - it would dominate them. When the Bombardment Core deploys, they would transform like the Rorqual, with armour plates sliding around and coolant rods being inserted and suchlike. They would be exhibiting constant thrust on all sides to stabilise the ship because of the recoil, and when the ship was required to turn and shoot at something, the thrusters would manouver it into facing with the target.

The weapon would take a few seconds to charge, and it would be visible all over the ship - arcs of lightning, coolant rods glowing red and warning lights flashing everywhere. There'd then be a gigantic, electromagnetic shockwave and the round would shoot out of the gun like the notorious pulse of energy that appears when a stargate fires. The ship would then move into compensation mode and start reconfiguring itself for another shot.

At the destination, there'd be a big warning - "INCOMING WARP SHELL". Retreat or stand-ground orders would be given by commanders, and there'd be a tense wait to see if everything could be ready by the time the shell got there. The shell would warp in at breakneck speed and then very suddenly stop somewhere around its target destination, and hang in space for just a tense, split second. Then it would erupt in a brutal explosion (which would depend on the type of shell you had fired), spewing plasma or shrapnel over the assembled ships in the area.

Oh man, that would be so awesome Very Happy

Captator
Perditus Peregrinus
Posted - 2008.04.29 18:13:00 - [23]
 

An issue I can see with the idea proposed directly above, other than the fact that it sounds absolutely awesome Cool is that with dreads the races do not all have the same guns, so either the devastators warp guns would have to have different attributes, eg:

gallente one higher damage lower range, caldari one longest range lowest damage, amarr and minny one middle range but with higher ROF and alpha respecively (although equal in damage to each other).

The other way this problem could be solved is that you could say it is not so much a gun as a giant acceleration rail, much like a stargate minaturised, so then all races have access to equivalent technology.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.04.29 18:24:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Cailais
Theres actually a suggestion very much like this one on the SHC forums - essentially suggesting Dreads as the 'artillery' ship engaging from several AU away and its got some good support. Def an idea in here.

C.




Keep in mind that in that tread[and others] we basically came to the conclusion that it absolutely could not be AoE and must be a method to kill capital ships and POS's rather than conventional fleets.

Packa
Caldari
Can Control
THORN Alliance
Posted - 2008.04.29 19:45:00 - [25]
 

my 2 cents

this is a good idea, but after reading the first post or so about the intended target it gave me a new idea, or an addition to the OP's idea.

the large AOE attack from several AU away would be a dread weopon, or titan, ofcourse, as that makes some sense. heres my idea.Frigates can get theyre own version of the weopon, MUCH smaller and weaker, that have damage maybe equal to medium guns of the same type. cruisers could use a type that simulated BS's and BS's could use a type similar normal dread weopons.
each turret may require 2-3 hardpoints (its much bigger) or may take up alot more cpu and/or PG.each weopon would, ofcourse, have a cooldown (firing such hardcore ammo surely would heat up the cannon!) and say maybe frigates would wait 5 or 10 secs between salvos, Bs's maybe up to a minuete, and i think it may be resonable to have a skill to reduce this time.

because i think AOE is immensly powerfull in this idea of mine, if it was done this way i think it would require atleast several level 5 skills, maybe, for instance, the hybrid artillary would need small hybrid spec 5 as the main pre-req, and some support skill or such, which would ease up to the powerfull dread AOE.to use the weopon the ship you want to hit must be target painted by someoen in your fleet, maybe 2 people target painting improove the fall off a little bit (i believe OP said that his idea might have a 20KM region of the original target where the shot would hit). and finally, the shots would be expensize to make ofc, and would require immense mineral Req. and the blueprints may also be hard to get (to me it seems that the dread size would atleast cost 1 mill and the BP may be a hard to get LP store reward)). My final suggestion is that maybe, for atleast the frigate size version, may only be able to fit on a t2 ship, or a t1 destroyer, due to the PG and CPU req's which make it so you can only have 1 or so on on t1 frigs... Etc, Etc...

i apolagize for poor typing as im in a hurry, if i have time ill edit the post and fix it up later tonight... Excellent idea, i think

J'Mkarr Soban
Posted - 2008.04.29 21:29:00 - [26]
 

Hmm, some good further ideas, and some bloody awful ones.

First, it should be like proper artillery strikes - each time the gun is fired, it gets easier and easier to narrow down the direction from where the shell is coming from. This doesn't indicate distance however. Given how scanners work, a narrow beam scan should be strong enough to pick up the artillery ship from within scanning range - which is why I mentioned that the range of the guns should be within scanner range.

The flashy graphics at the ship-side would be good, but the technicalities can be very simple. In essence, as I mentioned in the locked thread, they could just create a bomb at the destination. My idea of using recons or covert ops to launch artillery beacons best fits this, and the skill of the pilot determines the accuracy of the shot - 25km radius from the beacon at level 1 to 5km at level 5. Makes it nice and fair.

The idea of having smaller versions - no. That's ridiculous. In game, the power required to generate such a fast warp tunnel and project something as unstable as a bomb along it to a focused point makes the power and processing requirements astronomical. Gameplay wise, there's no need, it just seems like a 'me too' cry.

I don't see why this couldn't be the same as the anti-POS/capital weapon - if you dump a beacon right underneath a titan, even at level 1 of the artillery you're going to damage it. Same with a POS - you dump it between the turrets, and boom. The point should be made that any long range attack would be necessity be inaccurate, and this would be taken into consideration during design. As such, if you aren't sure you're going to hit exactly where you want, you make sure you've got a big enough explosion to at least give a good chance of doing some damage to it. Why do you think artillery shells are so large, and not just bullets?

Something I missed before was this idea of another system close by - no, no, no, no, no, no. It must be trackable and counteractable within a reasonable period of time - i.e. after 3 or 4 hits the enemy can narrow down the location of the ships and investigate. (As an aside, there is plenty of room for tactics and strategy here, as long as the devs help implement it properly - what happens if you've got 8 different groups attacking you from different angles? It's going to really screw up figuring out which direction they are coming from). Having it in another system doesn't even make sense in game - it would be a warp tunnel. If warp tunnels of that distance could be created, there would be no need for stargates.

It's a good idea, but like I said don't get bogged down in specifics, think general. More likely to be picked up then.

Pliauga
Gallente
Posted - 2008.04.30 06:14:00 - [27]
 

Ok, thnx for the feedback all.
A few comments if I may.
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Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban


Something I missed before was this idea of another system close by - no, no, no, no, no, no. It must be trackable and counteractable within a reasonable period of time - i.e. after 3 or 4 hits the enemy can narrow down the location of the ships and investigate.



Sorry for getting into the minutae, but I don't see how else I can put this to you.
If the artillery shell is incoming from another system the fleet that's being bombarded get a message: "INCOMING BOMBARDMENT - from system XXXXX". (No need to scan it down).

Once they get to that system, they can either scan it down, OR they would simply see a beacon named "Artillery ship HMS Cyclops". (An issue of balancing, I don't want to start a discussion here).
--
If the artillery ship is based in the same system as it's target fleet, the scan mechanic that you proposed should work just fine (But lets not discuss that here either)
--

I hope I have answered your arguments, and I do see the "FROM ANOTHER SYSTEM" part as the main point in this thread. Think wide. And don't limit yourself to existing scouting options.
-------

Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
...


Nice vision, I really like it. But if you don't mind I'll accept it only as a helpfull guideline. The bonuses that you proposed don't make much sense to me, but that's a thing of balancing.
------
Originally by: Packa
...

Sorry, but I disagree. I envision this as a very specific weapon, usable by only very specific ship type. And I think weapons like this should be hard to get, expensive to use and realtively easy to counter, but that's just me.
------



About using this as a new weapon against POS. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that make dreads obsolette? Even if this could be used against POSs, I think it should only augment a dread attack, not replace it.
------

J'Mkarr Soban is right. This is an idea for the general concept, how it wouldn't be overpowering or endgame, how it would help (or not). And the details that I proposed are just to show that it is possible to implement without destroying the game.
I really don't care if it's AOE damage, AOE ECM burst, AOE cap drain bomb, directed at capitals only or anything. Those are details, they can be ironed out l8r.

J'Mkarr Soban
Posted - 2008.04.30 09:06:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Pliauga
...AOE damage, AOE ECM burst, AOE cap drain bomb...


MMmmmmmmm, different effect types. I approve. Although what I'd really love to see is that it does actually use bombs. That way it would reduce the price of bombs due to greater production, which would make bombers more viable, and bombs in general as an offensive weapon. Plus by introducing new bomb effects, they can automatically be used by artillery.

How will someone detect which system it's coming from (from the storyline perspective)? They'd have to analyse the warp tunnel, which can't be done if the first thing the enemy is aware of is the appearance of the shell in the first place, by which time the warp tunnel has collapsed. And as I said, it would be impossible to generate enough power to send it between systems (although perhaps there is an argument here for stationary artillery as a POS module that might be able to provide enough power.) The closest I can think that might make this viable is a jump mechanic, where it takes fuel to jump the shell to a cyno point - and it would have to be a cyno point, not just a beacon. In which case you can use similar mechanics to jumping a ship, and the same limitations.

Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2008.04.30 09:31:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 30/04/2008 09:32:17
Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban
First, it should be like proper artillery strikes - each time the gun is fired, it gets easier and easier to narrow down the direction from where the shell is coming from.


This is an important point. Lets say for sake of argument that after each shot fired, a 'increasingly visible' ping of some form appears on the solar system map/scanner, whether scanned down or just straight there like cyno-field beacons doesn't really matter...

So this therefore implies that after a few shots, your location (or at least direction, depending on how hard you want to make it) is lit up like a Christmas tree. I think this sounds like a good thing, artillery is usually pretty obvious.

The obvious tactical counter to this is therefore to move after firing. Therefore you absolutely need the ship to have some sort of suitable 'set-up' and 'tear-down' stage between moving and firing to render it vulnerable to counter-attack. Something like in order to fire, all power is redirected to the gun...

However I'm not sure I agree with requiring it to be on the same grid. As long as it's in the same solar system and suitably lit up by some means, it can be attacked. Allowing from outside the system means you can attack from well defended systems into contested systems e.g. a well gate-camped system launches the attack into one you're attacking. Doesn't sound very wise to me.

Another issue that comes to mind - what if you had 100 of these and all targeted a gate or something near it? The long-range equivalent of a (very unfriendly) gate camp? Drop a beacon and then AFK blast away, anything that jumps in is in for a surprise... Perhaps timing between shots and having to redeploy beacons would be enough to negate this? Or is this a viable means of defending a gate?

Originally by: Goumindong
Keep in mind that in that tread[and others] we basically came to the conclusion that it absolutely could not be AoE and must be a method to kill capital ships and POS's rather than conventional fleets.


I wish you'd said why....

Carmizan
DOCS RUFF RIDERS
Vanguard Imperium
Posted - 2008.04.30 10:17:00 - [30]
 

It would seem to me that one of the issues here is how to detect the artillery ship if it is hundreds of km away. One idea could be that when the artillery ship opens fire they appear on the your overview and then fade away. This would give a prompt for the incoming message and allow the members of the gang to get at least the name of the person firing.

The delay in the fade away could be increased with ever shot fired allowing the gang to be able to scan him down.

This would mean that the artillery ship must be in the same system.

As for the targeting ship, they could use a 'laser target designator' which would have a range of say 60km ( if the AOE is 50Km ), but has with a cyno the ship would be unable to move until after the bomb/projectile has hit. This means that if the targeting ship is destroyed then the bomb could hit anywhere in the field of battle including his own gang members, giving an element of risk in it's use. Only one target ship can be used at one time even if you have more than one artillery ship firing and if you loose you targeting ship and another ship target an area the bomb can not acquire that target once in flight.

This to me seems a good compromise and gives each gang the chance to defend their postion against this kind of assault.


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