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Marichek
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2004.04.24 18:46:00 - [121]
 

I tell ya, before the weekend is over, we're gonna have an RKK invasion of Venal!

hazeb
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2004.04.24 18:54:00 - [122]
 

we will only come up if you guys supply the chips for the poker match

Jadrut
Minmatar
The KUM
Posted - 2004.04.24 18:55:00 - [123]
 

It'll also be dicovered that sun ra was wearing undewear all along

Einheriar Ulrich
Minmatar
Vengeance of the Fallen
Syndicate.
Posted - 2004.04.24 19:07:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Ly'sol
Edited by: Ly'sol on 24/04/2004 19:00:01
Quote:
You not "accepting" alliance control is like you saying the USA doesn't have a legitimate claim to Texas


However, cowboys on the texas borders dont shoot at truckers and minivans full of tourists as they enter the state.









I dont know, never been to TexasShocked

Diamond Dog
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2004.04.24 19:15:00 - [125]
 

Quote:
Since I'm out of bed before Jade (no surprise there!) I'll do a quick reply until she can elaborate.



Jericho Fraction does not dispute the legitimacy of alliances to exist.




Didn't JF just say not 2 weeks ago THEY did not recognise ANY Alliance or it's claims on space...

Diamond Dog
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2004.04.24 19:19:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: qwerts
hicks everyone knows how the pa was founded by backstabbing so lets not try and play the honor card




Wrong ..

JF brought it upon themselves.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2004.04.24 19:25:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: Jade Constantine on 24/04/2004 19:29:50

Quote:
Didn't JF just say not 2 weeks ago THEY did not recognise ANY Alliance or it's claims on space...


No. We said that we are happy to recognise Alliances just not the territorial claims of alliances. How difficult is that to grasp?

Quote:
JF brought it upon themselves.


Diamond Dog you are wrong, you have always been wrong, and its no surprise you are still wrong. You didn't have a clue in the NVA and you still have no clue outside of it. Your old CEO once described you as a crazy hothead with no ability to keep abreast of politics. Thats pretty much evident still.

Love and peace

Einheriar Ulrich
Minmatar
Vengeance of the Fallen
Syndicate.
Posted - 2004.04.24 19:33:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Einheriar Ulrich on 24/04/2004 19:34:33
Jade again your talking in forked tongues, You will recognice alliances, but not territorial claims.

You know that without territory, your nothing more than a big corp without any place of belongings.

Jade because your where kicked out of your former home, you have made it your goal to destroy all other who claim territory, but good luck, i have personally been here for 8 months now, i dont think you or any force in EVE can kick me out, lets tango Jade you and meWink

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2004.04.24 19:34:00 - [129]
 

Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
Jade again your talking in forked tongues, You will recognice alliances, but not territorial claims.

You know that without territory, your nothing more than a big corp withut any place of belongings.

Jade because your where kicked out of your former home, you have made it your goal to destroy all other who claim territory, but good luck, i have personally been here for 8 months now, i dont think you or any force in EVE can kick me out, lets tango Jade you and meWink


Why don't you and I meet for a drink in La Maison monsieur Ulrich ... lets have a realtime chat.I suspect we'll not see eye to eye but it will be fun nonetheless.



Diamond Dog
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2004.04.24 19:50:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Jade Constantine
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 24/04/2004 19:29:50

Quote:
Didn't JF just say not 2 weeks ago THEY did not recognise ANY Alliance or it's claims on space...


No. We said that we are happy to recognise Alliances just not the territorial claims of alliances. How difficult is that to grasp?

Quote:
JF brought it upon themselves.


Diamond Dog you are wrong, you have always been wrong, and its no surprise you are still wrong. You didn't have a clue in the NVA and you still have no clue outside of it. Your old CEO once described you as a crazy hothead with no ability to keep abreast of politics. Thats pretty much evident still.

Love and peace



Crazy hothead.. well u got me... I confess

I was crazy to believe anything you said during the time I was in the NVA .. But you know what.. Those days are over. I just can't understand why you're so obsessed on those days.

Ohh and I see you still resort lame remarks .. pity I would have thought that was below such "Noble" person like you..

As for my old CEO.. Well he's a nutcase just like me and most of all a true friend..

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2004.04.24 21:20:00 - [131]
 


Quote:
I was crazy to believe anything you said during the time I was in the NVA .. But you know what.. Those days are over. I just can't understand why you're so obsessed on those days.


Your the one who brought them up Diamond Dog.

Quote:
Ohh and I see you still resort lame remarks .. pity I would have thought that was below such "Noble" person like you..


I thought it was rather accurate and to the point.

Quote:
As for my old CEO.. Well he's a nutcase just like me and most of all a true friend


Actually he is rather more charming than you truth to tell.

Diamond Dog
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2004.04.24 21:32:00 - [132]
 

Edited by: Diamond Dog on 24/04/2004 21:36:12
Edited by: Diamond Dog on 24/04/2004 21:34:02
whatever makes you sleep at night.

Personally I'd prefer not to be a part of a ****ing contest with you jade..

We're for some reason always fighting. Probably my fault Confused

anywhooo....

Enjoy the game be it posting on these boards that resemble a trashcan more and more everyday or ingame.

g'day m'dear

I yield

Tatsue Nuko
Caldari
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2004.04.25 01:22:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
Edited by: Einheriar Ulrich on 24/04/2004 19:34:33
Jade again your talking in forked tongues, You will recognice alliances, but not territorial claims.

You know that without territory, your nothing more than a big corp without any place of belongings.


Is it really that hard to understand? We recognize alliances as entities, just as we recognize corporations as entities. But we do not recognize anyone's right to restrict free travel and commerce. The definition of an alliance is corporations that work together in a formalized way, not group of people that say "these solar systems are ours, and it's our god-given right to royally **** anyone that dares entertain the notion of freedom."

Heck, even the protectionist Amarr Empire allows free travel in it's space, even letting escaped slaves travel unmolested in their main systems. You don't let anyone enter. Don't play the "oh I'm so righteous" game.

Azure Skyclad
Amarr
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2004.04.25 01:42:00 - [134]
 

Edited by: Azure Skyclad on 25/04/2004 01:43:58
Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
Edited by: Einheriar Ulrich on 24/04/2004 19:34:33

You know that without territory, your nothing more than a big corp without any place of belongings.


It's the same kind of instinct that has dogs peeing against trees and growling at anything that has the nerve to come within 10 mteres of the tree.

Our view in Jericho is,
You can be more than a dog....What is stopping you?

additionally, we are saying,
Why do you cling so tenaciously to this tree when our way allows you to have that tree...and that one...and that one...and that one....and that one?

It's not a big leap. Just an unusual one. Wink


Kakalot
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2004.04.25 01:53:00 - [135]
 

Actually, it matters not whether you recognize alliances or their claims. If you dont like them so much, do something about it. The way you responded IMHO is merely trolling. Now dont get me wrong, I'm into discussion but there's nothing for us to discuss here.

Jhered Stern
Caldari
Black Serpent Technologies
R.A.G.E
Posted - 2004.04.25 07:07:00 - [136]
 

*_*

Doh!

Propehcy
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2004.04.25 08:24:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: Tatsue Nuko
Originally by: Einheriar Ulrich
Edited by: Einheriar Ulrich on 24/04/2004 19:34:33
Jade again your talking in forked tongues, You will recognice alliances, but not territorial claims.

You know that without territory, your nothing more than a big corp without any place of belongings.


Is it really that hard to understand? We recognize alliances as entities, just as we recognize corporations as entities. But we do not recognize anyone's right to restrict free travel and commerce. The definition of an alliance is corporations that work together in a formalized way, not group of people that say "these solar systems are ours, and it's our god-given right to royally **** anyone that dares entertain the notion of freedom."

Heck, even the protectionist Amarr Empire allows free travel in it's space, even letting escaped slaves travel unmolested in their main systems. You don't let anyone enter. Don't play the "oh I'm so righteous" game.


So why arn't you fighting the Caldari State, Gallente Federation, Minmatar Repbulic, Amarrian Empire, or the Jove whatever? (other then game mechanics). There's absolutley no differnace between 1.0 and 0.0 space except for who own's it and where it's located.

An Alliance, is just as legit as any of the 5 empires, yet you've got no problems with them.. Pfft. Hats off to double standards JF.


GoGo Yubari
Gallente
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2004.04.25 10:08:00 - [138]
 

Well, I'm not from Jericho, but ...

How hard is it to understand? Empires don't shoot you at the gates, do they? Not unless you're a recognized criminal.

As for me? I want to see them all burn - alliances as well as empires.

Wren
Minmatar
x13
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.04.25 10:11:00 - [139]
 

I am beginning to see that some people can't decide which region they want to plunder, they want the oppertunity to change their minds and hit up whatever system they happen to be near at the time.

At least that is what it is starting to look like.

Hey, how about we also just hand you stuff whenever we see you in local too.

Would that make you happy?

Veskrashen
Caldari
A.W.M
Ka-Tet
Posted - 2004.04.25 11:32:00 - [140]
 

Originally by: Propehcy
So why arn't you fighting the Caldari State, Gallente Federation, Minmatar Repbulic, Amarrian Empire, or the Jove whatever? (other then game mechanics). There's absolutley no differnace between 1.0 and 0.0 space except for who own's it and where it's located.

An Alliance, is just as legit as any of the 5 empires, yet you've got no problems with them.. Pfft. Hats off to double standards JF.



It really amuses me how little of our posts you actually read.

JF does not oppose the existence of alliances. We oppose the restriction on travel that most player alliances insist upon. We refuse to accept as legitimate their idea that they can restrict where we can go, or what we can do. We acknowledge that they've got big guns, and can camp gates well and all - we just refuse to acknowledge that it's legitimate.

Now - to the difference between the Empires and the player alliances. In case you haven't already noticed, the empires actually allow travel through them free of charge. They allow the free use of their stations, and free access to any and all mineral resources contained therein. I can travel to any system in any empire and mine, trade, whatever.

But what about CONCORD and the navies and such? Don't they gank people too?

The purpose of those organizations is to preserve the rights of those within their borders to conduct business without undue interference. If you attack someone without being at war with them, that is a violation of their right to non-interference - and in theory, they will intervene. Kill enough of their commercial shipping, and eventually the navy will step in - if the station sentry guns don't get you first.

Why do we not oppose the Empires? It's not due to mechanics, it's due to the fact that they don't seek to restrict our right to free travel. This, and only this, is the bone of contention. If a player alliance does not restrict our ability to travel and trade freely, we have no problem with it. We fully repect their right to defend themselves against outside depredation. We totally understand banding together to more efficiently defend themselves. We reject the idea that they control the space they're in, or can legitimately impose restrictions on those not actively persecuting their members.

It is not a double standard, Prophecy - it is a failure on your part to understand the free space philosophy of JF, and a failure on your part to recognize the fundamental differences between the way some player alliances are run and how the Empires are managed on a daily basis.

Wren
Minmatar
x13
IT Alliance
Posted - 2004.04.25 11:54:00 - [141]
 

See my above post for a quick version of what he just said.

Darken Two
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2004.04.25 12:08:00 - [142]
 

Firstly let me put on my flame ******ant suit.

Now thats done, question about the JF space philosophy if you want it called that way.

I understand you want alliance space to be just like empire space. That part is very clear to me, but I fear you may have missed a few fundamental differences between alliances and the empires.

Firstly the empires do charge for the use of their stations and services, unless u have a very high standing with the corporation and faction that owns the system and station. This I guess can be countered by an argument saying alliances can charge for stations and services as well. Fair enough I guess.

Secondly all factional empire based military and police forces do not mine or need money for their ships. You can blow up all the concord ships you want but they still keep coming. Alliances unfortunately do not have that luxury. They must maintain their military forces through a lot of mining and manufacturing and getting ships done is much more difficult for them especially since getting common minerals in 0.0 space is such a pain.

Thirdly the npcs are not in the game to have fun they serve a vital purpose which is to keep players who dont like PvP out of it as much as possible. Alliances are born and bred for the express purpose of havin fun and waging war based on territorial interests and I dont see any reason why they should be very happy and grateful for all the people wanting to wander through their claimed space.

Fourthly as much as I hate to say it most of the people who sneak into alliance territories do it because they know the alliances are much more reasonable and less bloodthirsty than the pirates in unclaimed 0.0, so they do it to benefit from free protection while they get rich.

Now I ramble maybe someone in JF can clear my doubts as to what they mean when they compare empire space and alliances based on the factors I mentioned above.

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2004.04.25 14:02:00 - [143]
 

Darken, (and anyone interested in the Jericho Freespace aspiration).

I think there are a couple of key principles here that first need expressing:

1. We do recognise 0.0 alliances as valid entities of worth to their members with influence and power. We believe that what an alliance brings is primarily community, shared vision, common defense, and common economic incentives. These are the things which positively unite the involved corporations and allow them to function as a virtual "state".

2. We do not recognise 0.0 alliance territorial claims. Why? Because we believe the claims themselves are ridiculous, self-deluding, destructive and ultimately pointless. Why is it neccessary to have a "we shoot everyone not us" policy when it is very possible to have "we shoot X,Y,Z war enemies, pirates and nere-do-wells" policy that maintains regional security while not judging and executing all visitors by the same standards as foes?

3. We believe that restrictive space is counter productive and cowardly. The true exploitation and development of 0.0 space will only happen when the regional markets on the frontier are filled with product and commerce and the raw mineral and module meltdown take allows industrialists to actually build a functioning economy. This requires that neutrals and freelancers and peaceful builders are welcomed to the territory and allowed to do these things. Yes it is a big step (and terrifying to trigger happy xenophobes) but it is a neccessary step if 0.0 economics are ever going to present a valid alternative to Empire space.

Now, a couple of commentators here have said "Jericho, you just want 0.0 to be like Empire" - Wrong.

We want freespace alliances that can fight and defend themselves from war-enemies and ravagers. We want a vibrant 0.0 economy. We want opportunity for honest and decent corporations and individuals to make their fortune with risk and courage. But here is the kicker ... we want these things without Concord, without the artificial protection of the old Empires and without the cloying stigma of ancient reactionary memetics stifling the creativity of the human future.

Now monsieur Wren (who should know better) asks if we want to strip all resources from his backyard and ask him to gift wrap them too.

My answer is a hearty ... don't be so silly!

As everyone knows 0.0 resources are practically infinate. The raiding ships of the deepspace pirate Cartels have vast fleets to be harvested for their modules. Trade goods are produced regularly. Asteroids are discovered all the time, and there is no valid economic reason to restrict space between the restriction itself makes you poorer by cutting off the ability of the market to make you profits from the technical and resource needs of the visitors and independents.

The truth here is that the is only one reason for restrictive territoriality:

And that is power and the presumption that such dominion brings prestige.

The people that support these territorial laws will make up pleasing lies ...

"we need to defend our borders!"
"you could be a pirate spy!"
"alts are out to get us!"
"we need to protect our ore!"
"we don't like poeple stealing our spawns!

Lets deconstruct this -

"we need to defend our borders!" - you can't ... 0.0 has too many ways in and *anyone* can slip past whenever they want too. If a serious military invasion ever comes then the "border guards" will run and safespot obviously, they know they can knowing about it. Hence the current "checkpoints" are nothing more than dodgy scamster stations were the credulous are separated from their isk and gung-ho reactionaries are able to shoot at targets with no risk.

"you could be a pirate spy!" / "alts are out to get us!" yes sure, I have been there and done it myself. But there is a big difference to a starter corp velator pilot who smack-talks in local and an honest traveller with a bought ship and credible explanations ... and only a numpty with attention problems could mistake that. This is an excuse to kill everyone made by people without the imagination to see the big picture.

"we need to protect our ore!" Well show me a guy that ignores a reasonable local message "hey mr X, these are belts mined by the alliance Y war effort, please go somewhere else and mine ... try a couple of systems that way!" And I will show you a guy that deserves to get blown up. But here is the thing, there are *thousands* of viable belts in the 0.0 territory that are claimed by territorial alliances and never utilised or harvested. This is greed on and epic scale and its manifest in its appalling stupidity.

-Cont below

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2004.04.25 14:03:00 - [144]
 

Edited by: Jade Constantine on 25/04/2004 14:25:08

-cont

Do you guys know how much money can be made by opening up the conquerable stations to neutral mining and resouce gathering and just setting a viable "take" price? Its a total fortune. If you successfully keep a region clean of pirates and hostile murderers and encourage a good number of neutral industrialists and refiners to use the facilities you will have all the money you need to upkeep your fleet, replace losses, and sustain a war effort against your true enemies. All this while being the "good guy" while supporting free markets and free trade and freedom of movement. You still have your ultimate sanction of the standings and KOS list but its simply not neccessary to set a global "kill list" vs the rest of Eve.

"they steal our spawns" ... yeah right.

So, its all hogwash this restrictive territory crap. The truth is that these chaps like to have an excuse to shoot at people that drift into "their" sphere of influence and it makes them feel important to dictate terms to people with smaller ships or smaller corps or smaller ambitions. "Owning" a thing or place or concept and trading on power to gain "respect" is what is happening here.

And the reason we in Jericho Fraction do not "respect" these territorial claims is that they are not worth of "respect". We urge the 0.0 alliances to grow up and adopt a more enlightened stance and just be better mercantilists for heaven's sake.

I am Gallente, but I have a Caldari head for profit.

It offends me to see the financial potential of 0.0 markets going to waste. It is such a missed opportunity and a waste of everyone's time to see the future squandered by people with neither the vision nor the imagination to see that building viable markets in deep space is the key to building a viable political power that will last the test of time.

At the moment I see bandit kingdoms that squabble and curse and rant and threaten and butt heads in a continual struggle that is meaningless to the general population of Eve. To the novice pilot starting today all 0.0 alliances are pirates pretty much. And that pilot is the future. If you cannot inspire the vision and loyalty of the next generation then you are clinging to a decaying dream and truly wasting your time in building anything at all.

Anyway to conclude.

Jericho Fraction does not respect or recognise 0.0 territorial claims. We do respect and recongise 0.0 government and will be happy to negotiate and discuss shared aspirations, needs, and if neccessary, commmon defense. Our principle desire is free and unrestricted travel wherever we please.

We will not descend on you like locusts and pick your belts clean or farm all your best spawns or blast your indies on sight, and we will be very keen to be good citizens and aid any of your people that get into trouble in any form.

Our intention is to encourage and assist in the development of 0.0 society and associated culture. So we will be building things, selling things, forging trade runs, defending the weak, supporting allies and friends, and basically promoting the agenda we espouse by whatever means are appropriate.

We are not pirates and we will not attact your ships without cause or leave. In fact we will help neutrals against pirate attack whenever we are able. Fundimentally Jericho Fraction is the sort of corporation you want to see in deep space because we are a throwback to the attitudes of a year ago when the people you saw in local on the frontier were more likely to come and help you against murderous spawns than simply camp you at a gate.

The only people that need to fear attack from a Jericho ship are concord sanctioned war enemies, FE mining pass holders and allies, Known pirates, or members of invading regional alliances attempting to claim power over freespace.

0.0 space is the future. But communities and progressive society there need to be founded now.

I trust this answers the questions but if there is still doubt ask away:

Tatsue Nuko
Caldari
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
Posted - 2004.04.25 14:24:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: Darken Two
Firstly the empires do charge for the use of their stations and services, unless u have a very high standing with the corporation and faction that owns the system and station. This I guess can be countered by an argument saying alliances can charge for stations and services as well. Fair enough I guess.


Aye, owned stations are owned and defended. That people pay fees to use them is only fair.

Originally by: Darken Two
Secondly all factional empire based military and police forces do not mine or need money for their ships. You can blow up all the concord ships you want but they still keep coming. Alliances unfortunately do not have that luxury. They must maintain their military forces through a lot of mining and manufacturing and getting ships done is much more difficult for them especially since getting common minerals in 0.0 space is such a pain.


Agreed, I would personally not hold it against an alliance if they - in a situation of war or imminent threat of war - descide that it is imperative to their survival that they shut down mining until they are once again secure. In fact, I regard the issue of free mining vs. mining ban as of very secondary interest (in spite of being a mining maniac =).

As an example of what I could say be a good compromize is NORAD's policy of having all space except the Sole constellation open to everyone who is not a known enemy, known pirate, or mining/having mining lasers fitted to the ship. The issue of the Sole constellation is a bit of a turn-off, but I am not very much bothered. They feel the need for a zone of increased security, which I can understand, and there's bigger fish to fry out there.

Also, remember that the freedom of travel does not automatically mean that you'll have every mining corp and it's daycare center coming up for stripmining sessions. The issue of free mining is secondary to free travel, in my opinion.

(Note that this is an issue of some debate internally, but the rule of thumb is that if you don't gank our agent runners, NPC-killers and exploration maniacs we are not very likely to go after you just because we can't mine. We're not exactly a mining corp, and as I stated - we've got bigger fish to fry. =)

Originally by: Darken Two
Thirdly the npcs are not in the game to have fun they serve a vital purpose which is to keep players who dont like PvP out of it as much as possible. Alliances are born and bred for the express purpose of havin fun and waging war based on territorial interests and I dont see any reason why they should be very happy and grateful for all the people wanting to wander through their claimed space.


Wrong. Alliances are formed due to the need to co-operate in 0.0 space. Some alliances want to wage an endless war (CA most notably), but not all. If what you said was true, should we not have constant PA crusades doing the CA routine and attacking anyone they find the smallest excuse of a reason to fight? (CA people, note the sarcasm, but you must grant that you have had several wars on very fishy reasons).

Also, you are bringing the definition outside of the in-game setting. I prefer keeping war reasons and alliance-building to the in-game sphere (though I include the forums in my definition of "in-game", as it's here that a lot of the PR and such is taking place, and PR is very much a part of this game.) I understand that this is not the way everyone wants to play the game, but it's how I play it.

Originally by: Darken Two
Fourthly as much as I hate to say it most of the people who sneak into alliance territories do it because they know the alliances are much more reasonable and less bloodthirsty than the pirates in unclaimed 0.0, so they do it to benefit from free protection while they get rich.


I would say that the CA has at least in part taken upon itself an image of being just so bloodthirsty, seeing the numerous incidents where they are not content with killing anyone that has the audacity to do a bit of sight-seeing in CA territory - there has been several incidents of ganking in Empire space upon corps that have absolutely zero history with CA.

And as for free protection while getting rich, see my take on the mining issue. For the purpose of NPC hunting you can hardly say that they are decreasing your incomes? I have yet to hear any alliance claim that they can keep every system and every belt chaining NPC's... And if a threat arises, and those NPC-hunters descide not to help in the areas defence, then I'd personally regard that as casus belli for their eviction.

Tansien
Amarr
Contraband Inc.
Posted - 2004.04.25 14:25:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Tansien on 25/04/2004 14:31:35
Jade, why should we who splill blood for our alliance(s) allow those who only want our riches into our areas? If they dont want to help us defend they can just leech scordite in empire.

Also, traders, neutrals and so is very hard to identify and gives alot of problems, and some even might try to mine even tho they said "we are only here to trade/hunt npc's", thus it's alot easier to just close borders.

Edit: and yeah, look at the CFS to see what happened with "open space for all", diden't work out that well did it?

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2004.04.25 14:41:00 - [147]
 

Quote:
Jade, why should we who splill blood for our alliance(s) allow those who only want our riches into our areas? If they dont want to help us defend they can just leech scordite in empire.


I will answer you from 4 perspectives:

From the Amarri perspective: Because an empire is about the protection of its citizens and the preservation of law and order and control. Yes your warriors are mighty and well-blooded but what is the point unless these deeds are appreciated and revered and mythologised? At the moment your power is turned against weak neutrals and it is very much beneath you.

From the Minmatar perspective: Because the old empires have failed the cause and aspirations of freedom and the new diaspora of hope is on the frontier. Today's "leeching" novices will be tomorrows patriots and freedom fighters. The biggest threat to Curse is not external threat and resource theft its lack of ambition and ennui. Every week some of your old guard disappear and its neccessary that the youth are trained to replace them. By barring all neutrals you lose more potential friends than you frustrate enemies.

From the Gallente perspective: Because by barring the exploration of space you have set yourself up as tyrants ... people hate tyrants. Yes sure, your leaders will say they don't care what people think of them but that is a lie. Otherwise we would not see so much justification and defense of the Curse message on these forums. You do care, and you don't like being seen as the greatest evil in Eve. Hence the answer to this conundrum is simple ... stop chaining freedom.

From the Caldari perspective: Because your economics are wrong. The neutrals and "leeching" freelancers will make you rich. They will build the market for you and give you a place to sell your wares. They will provide a financial foundation to the Curse alliance that currently does not exist. At the moment nobody outside curse would care a hoot if you ceased to exist. Build a market and protect it and suddently you have a huge financial support network that has an ingrained responsibility to see you continue.

Quote:
Also, traders, neutrals and so is very hard to identify and gives alot of problems, and some even might try to mine even tho they said "we are only here to trade/hunt npc's", thus it's alot easier to just close borders.


Confirmed hostiles get KOS and set to -10 standings ... where is the problem? And as for the mining ... hey, put cans in your regular belts with the warning "this is a resource gathering belt for the Curse alliance please go x jumps in y direction and leave this belt to us"

Anyone ignores that shoot them and stick them on -10 standings and KOS.

That is far more enlightened that assuming everyone is out to get you.




Tansien
Amarr
Contraband Inc.
Posted - 2004.04.25 15:01:00 - [148]
 

Edited by: Tansien on 25/04/2004 15:10:13
If you would read up the CA's history we were founded as an open alliance where everyone could find shelter, pirate or not pirate, not like those other alliances like SA or FA that closed their borders and only wanted to mine their ore, we fought plenty of wars because of this, against SA, FA, CFS, CC, GWP... And what we thought changed, only way to survive in this ruthless world was to fight.

We fought, and we won the civil war against the CC, we drove the GWP out, and we made short work of the CFS in the first war, Now, leechers are ONLY problems, if they first would fight for us, then of course they would be allowed to mine all they wanted, but we donít want... we donít need people that are only concerned with their own economic power here, we have never been the richest alliance, and we probably never will be either because of the constant warfare.

You can't let everyone in, as then most people will just back out when you need their help, you let them mine, you protect them, and when you need their help the most, they back out and leave you on your own. Once the danger is over and everything is safe again, they expect that they will be let back in to mine again. Many hate the CA because of what we do, but it is because of what others did to us that we became like this...

EDIT: And yeh, if ya diden't know we dont shoot C4 because we got a military alliance with them, or XETIC/PA because we got NAP with them, so we really dont kill everyone :)

Reverend Necrona
Minmatar
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2004.04.25 15:09:00 - [149]
 

*Yawn*.

So can i shoot PA yet?

Jade Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2004.04.25 15:13:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Tansien
If you would read up the CA's history we were founded as an open alliance where everyone could find shelter, pirate or not pirate, not like those other alliances like SA or FA that closed their borders and only wanted to mine their ore, we fought plenty of wars because of this, against SA, FA, CFS, CC, GWP... And what we thought changed, only way to survive in this ruthless world was to fight.

We fought, and we won the civil war against the CC, we drove the GWP out, and we made short work of the CFS in the first war, Now, leechers are ONLY problems, if they first would fight for us, then of course they would be allowed to mine all they wanted, but we donít want... we donít need people that are only concerned with their own economic power here, we have never been the richest alliance, and we probably never will be either because of the constant warfare.

You can't let everyone in, as then most people will just back out when you need their help, you let them mine, you protect them, and when you need their help the most, they back out and leave you on your own. Once the danger is over and everything is safe again, they expect that they will be let back in to mine again. Many hate the CA because of what we do, but it is because of what others did to us that we became like this...


I know you history Tansien, I was negotiating with Curse at the formation when I represented NVA, and because I was promised certain things during those negotiations I still feel a personal disappointment with the way things turned out in the south. But that is pretty much by the by. The key point on which we disagree is this:

You feel that that people who simply want to make money and will flee when the fighting starts are appalling "leechers" and should not be allowed.

I think you are making a big mistake. These "leechers" will make you rich. And some of them *will* become true friends. Eve as a game makes people go through stages of evolution like the empires and alliances they interact with. In the beginning the trading, the mining, the agent running and the pure making of isk is very exciting and many people don't have the resources to fight in the alliance blob-wars and such. But eventually most people get an urge to do some fighting and they will by and large fight for the interests and powers that treated them best when they were starting out. And fighting isn't very hard to learn.

Look at my example Tansien, once I was a pacifist trader who had no clue how to win combats ... now I have a hanger full of other people's corpses and am extremely confident in fast and deadly frigate warfare. People can learn, they will learn.

But the key point you overlook is that even if they do not fight. Even if they only make money and gather resources and sell the minerals in your stations. They are still helping the war effort. An industrialised alliance like an industrialied nation needs a pure economic caste to support the war effort. If everyone is a warrior who drives the economy? I think you cut-off your nose to spite your face Tansien.

But its not an uncommon attitude in 0.0.



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