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Shirley Serious
Amarr
The Khanid Sisters of Athra
Posted - 2008.04.12 12:02:00 - [1]
 

Question: How are new players expected to compete with older ones?

Answer: Recruit them?

Still being in the starter corp, I occasionally see the question about how newer players are supposed to compete against older ones.

As far as I can see, you're supposed to recruit them.
i.e. it works like things in the real world - You have an idea - you find people with the skills to carry it out - everyone wins.

Seems pretty obvious, so what am I missing?

Batolemaeus
Caldari
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.04.12 12:04:00 - [2]
 

You are missing nothing.

Corps recruit new players with skills and form them into something useful for them. Mostly by teaching them how to kill most efficiently, so after a month or so they can be useful i just about any fleet composition.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
Posted - 2008.04.12 12:04:00 - [3]
 

You can't. We win. You lose. Sign up for HelloKitty Online.

Nah but really, skillpoints isn't all in this game. Experience is. And you can get the experience quite quickly. Ans like said, join the older and you are on a much more competative level than playing solo.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2008.04.12 12:04:00 - [4]
 

But in the game world, highly skilled players do not want to work with newbs. It is sad but it is the truth.

Tissa
Minmatar
Mnemonic Enterprises
New Eden Research.
Posted - 2008.04.12 12:05:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Tissa on 12/04/2008 12:05:52
Originally by: Shirley Serious

Seems pretty obvious, so what am I missing?

Experience.

You need to know what you are doing if you want to lead, a 2 day old player, and I say this with the greatest love for newbies, ain't going to know his arse from his elbow.

Armoured C
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2008.04.12 12:07:00 - [6]
 

train into something specific ... all the skill in eve only go to level 5 which potientally means you can be skilled in one ship as they are to theres, they can fly more ships and also a upper hand if they are a carebear then they will be flying a carebear ship .... they are older than you but you have the upper hand being a PVP ship and just shoot them .... you have sucessfully taken out something older than you


yes there prifcient in more stuff than you and cany fly more than you but they have been on longer than you


this isnt wow where everyone can be level 70


my advice is specilise for example ewarfare

all people skill point will mean crap if you have them damped or jammed

skill points arnt everything but go along way to helping

CmdoColin
Posted - 2008.04.12 12:15:00 - [7]
 

What's flavour of the month right now? How many skill points does THAT ship use. You're capp'ed. However many points I've got in gallente industrial doesn't help me flying a FoTM ship.

What higher skill point characters have the ability to do is get in a FoTM ship faster than a lower skill point character.

Also fleets are required... it ain't a solo game. Different weapon classes and different hull sizes interact differently. A frigate gank group will kill a ratting bs if they get it locked down. You compete, but you also co-operate. So yes you do recruit. Taking two bottles into the shower ships to a fight is better than one.

As has also been said, sp ain't the be all and end all. Player skill is greater. Experience is the best weapon in any form of PvP this game offers. Trade or pew-pew.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.04.12 12:16:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
But in the game world, highly skilled players do not want to work with newbs. It is sad but it is the truth.


It is not the truth. Many older players are more than happy to let someone else do the hard work running a corp.

Cailais
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2008.04.12 12:19:00 - [9]
 

It depends on your definition of 'new'.

Can a new character, played by an experience player, compete? Of course as the player will have the benefit of experience and will know what battles he can, and cannot win (and I use the term 'battle' in the loosest term not just pvp).

This might be best described as the 'Innominate Nightmare' effect, where a experienced player produced a hilarious account of life as a 'noob'; ammasing a small fortune in the process.

If you mean a new player, then they are less able to compete (even if they aquire an older character) because they lack experience. This is evident from the swathes of kill board records showing old characters with terrible set ups because tey are ships being flown by inexperienced pilots.

At the extreme scale consider what would happen if you dropped a brand new player, with no EVE experience whatsoever into 0.0 in a faction BS with a 03 character? How long would they survive? Id suggest not very long at all.

C.


Siresa Talesi
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2008.04.12 13:49:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
But in the game world, highly skilled players do not want to work with newbs. It is sad but it is the truth.


It is not the truth. Many older players are more than happy to let someone else do the hard work running a corp.


I'm sorry, did you just respond seriously to something posted by Jenny? Shocked I thought you'd been around here longer than that, Mal.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.04.12 13:54:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Siresa Talesi
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
But in the game world, highly skilled players do not want to work with newbs. It is sad but it is the truth.


It is not the truth. Many older players are more than happy to let someone else do the hard work running a corp.


I'm sorry, did you just respond seriously to something posted by Jenny? Shocked I thought you'd been around here longer than that, Mal.


Yeah, I know. But that's one of the more pernicious myths that need to be debunked at every opportunity.

Tar Ecthelion
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.04.12 14:23:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Siresa Talesi
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
But in the game world, highly skilled players do not want to work with newbs. It is sad but it is the truth.


It is not the truth. Many older players are more than happy to let someone else do the hard work running a corp.


I'm sorry, did you just respond seriously to something posted by Jenny? Shocked I thought you'd been around here longer than that, Mal.


Yeah, I know. But that's one of the more pernicious myths that need to be debunked at every opportunity.


I've been around for almost 5 years and done all the corp CEO/Director stuff and it became like a second job at times. Newer players can have more enthusiam about things us vets think are tedious, and so why not encourage and help them along by giving them access to our experience.
Besides, Some of the newer players I've met are up there with the best PvPer's i've met in 5 years in their tactics and approach to things, Me, i'm just too laid back and grumpy to PvP much nowadays. Cool

P.S. I've quoted Jenny for first time Laughing

Zartach Tzarszh
Minmatar
Mindstar Technology
Executive Outcomes
Posted - 2008.04.12 14:30:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
But in the game world, highly skilled players do not want to work with newbs. It is sad but it is the truth.


Actualy a few of my mates and myself are looking for real new players to help them out and make our small corporation a fun place. And i can imagine a lot of otehrs would like to get some new people in their corporations too to make the chatter go up in corpchat.

Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
Posted - 2008.04.12 14:35:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Zartach Tzarszh
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
But in the game world, highly skilled players do not want to work with newbs. It is sad but it is the truth.


Actualy a few of my mates and myself are looking for real new players to help them out and make our small corporation a fun place. And i can imagine a lot of otehrs would like to get some new people in their corporations too to make the chatter go up in corpchat.


Not many really. People like you are the minor few. We use more practical scenes, would the biggest alliances use or give newbs a chance to run their alliances?

At the end, Eve is a game and seniority in games rules especially a game like Eve. Am I wrong?

Coconut Joe
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.04.12 14:50:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Shirley Serious
Question: How are new players expected to compete with older ones?



Specialize
Specialize
Specialize

Lord Haur
Amarr
Grim Determination
Posted - 2008.04.12 15:12:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Not many really. People like you are the minor few. We use more practical scenes, would the biggest alliances use or give newbs a chance to run their alliances?


ok, would you trust your stuff with the guy you've known since childhood or the new guy who just moved in next door?

Kiki Arnolds
Caldari
Allied Caprican Heavy Industries
Posted - 2008.04.12 16:00:00 - [17]
 

one word: TACKLE

Fleets always need people to tackle, and you can do so very well in a t2 frig in about a month (two at most)

Valan
Posted - 2008.04.12 16:05:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Zartach Tzarszh
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
But in the game world, highly skilled players do not want to work with newbs. It is sad but it is the truth.


Actualy a few of my mates and myself are looking for real new players to help them out and make our small corporation a fun place. And i can imagine a lot of otehrs would like to get some new people in their corporations too to make the chatter go up in corpchat.


Not many really. People like you are the minor few. We use more practical scenes, would the biggest alliances use or give newbs a chance to run their alliances?

At the end, Eve is a game and seniority in games rules especially a game like Eve. Am I wrong?


Yes completely wrong. It keeps the game fresh its same old same old for vets.

If I have reason to build a ship with my alt or run to a belt to help someone out it keeps the game new. New blood keeps a corp going.

I have to admit sometimes I don't specifically engage the new guy in a corp as he may be fine on his own doing his own thing. If he approaches me for help I'll do my best.

As a newbie how do you feel you're treated by vets?

Jennai
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
Posted - 2008.04.12 17:00:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Cailais
If you mean a new player, then they are less able to compete (even if they aquire an older character) because they lack experience. This is evident from the swathes of kill board records showing old characters with terrible set ups because tey are ships being flown by inexperienced pilots.


some of those are sold to timecard-selling new players, but there's a lot of people who've had the same character the whole time and still use terrible setups because they never learn.

Quote:
At the extreme scale consider what would happen if you dropped a brand new player, with no EVE experience whatsoever into 0.0 in a faction BS with a 03 character? How long would they survive? Id suggest not very long at all.


case in point: that guy who timecoded a carrier and lost it shortly afterwards ratting in a belt

Comrade Commizzar
Posted - 2008.04.13 01:46:00 - [20]
 

"Question: How are new players expected to compete with older ones?"

ANSWER:
They are not expected to compete. They are expected to enjoy the game. So the real question is "How to enjoy Eve"? This is largely a matter of definition of purpose. If your purpose as a new player in Eve is to rule Eve, you will not enjoy the game, as you will receive no satisfaction. On the other hand, if your purpose is to join with other new players in the epic struggle to destroy the unjustly enriched and powerful Bourgoise Ruling Class that oppresses and exploits all new pilots, then you will derive great satisfaction. Forward the Revolution! Enjoy Eve!

Mr QUE
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2008.04.13 02:08:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Comrade Commizzar
"Question: How are new players expected to compete with older ones?"

ANSWER:
They are not expected to compete. They are expected to enjoy the game. So the real question is "How to enjoy Eve"? This is largely a matter of definition of purpose. If your purpose as a new player in Eve is to rule Eve, you will not enjoy the game, as you will receive no satisfaction. On the other hand, if your purpose is to join with other new players in the epic struggle to destroy the unjustly enriched and powerful Bourgoise Ruling Class that oppresses and exploits all new pilots, then you will derive great satisfaction. Forward the Revolution! Enjoy Eve!



This about sum's it up I think :)


Ralagina
Caldari
ReviveX Fleet
White Noise.
Posted - 2008.04.13 02:14:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Shirley Serious
Question: How are new players expected to compete with older ones?


By starting 4 years ago, dur :p

dragon mouth
Posted - 2008.04.13 02:16:00 - [23]
 

I am a returning player after a 2years break from eve and started new chars.

Exp playing eve is what wins not skill point that only helps you fly ships and use equipment.

I was in fleet combat in t1 frigs within a couple of weeks getting pvp kills and am enjoying playing again.

Older player taking real new player under thier wing make the game more enjoyable to them and it like giving back all you have learnt playing the game :) even now im enjoying helping other new player get into 0.0 and into pvp :)

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.04.13 02:21:00 - [24]
 

When I first started playing EVE I joined a corporation that was entirely made up of new players and I am not talking about the default corp.

Brace yourselves!

I was having loads of fun.

It was when I joined a corporation that had players that were playing for a couple of years and I wondered how am I supposed to compete with these uber skilled players.

Like it has been said before above. I realized specialization was where it was at. Who wants to be a "Jack of all trades and master of none"??

Tackling is very important and always appreciated. With the new change to the interceptors, training up and T2 fitting any of the interceptors that gets a warp scram range bonus is easy to do and always appreciated in any fleet.

Specialization. This is how you stand out in a good way in a room with a bunch of old cronies.

techzer0
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.04.13 03:05:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Marlona Sky
Like it has been said before above. I realized specialization was where it was at. Who wants to be a "Jack of all trades and master of none"??
Exactly what this character is. I get wtfbbq'd in a BS by any newer player who has more specialized in flying one race. I mean... even my alt can kick the crap outta me in a BS and she's a year younger Laughing

So, yeah... Specialize, specialize, specialize like has been said already

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.04.13 03:18:00 - [26]
 

huang is always lookig for newplayers to fight with us in 0.0

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2008.04.13 05:14:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: techzer0
Originally by: Marlona Sky
Like it has been said before above. I realized specialization was where it was at. Who wants to be a "Jack of all trades and master of none"??
Exactly what this character is. I get wtfbbq'd in a BS by any newer player who has more specialized in flying one race. I mean... even my alt can kick the crap outta me in a BS and she's a year younger Laughing

So, yeah... Specialize, specialize, specialize like has been said already


I on the other hand can only fly Drakes Sad but damn if I can't fly them well! Razz

Wet Ferret
Posted - 2008.04.13 05:37:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Coconut Joe
Originally by: Shirley Serious
Question: How are new players expected to compete with older ones?



Specialize
Specialize
Specialize


This, in a nutshell.

No matter how many millions of SPs you have, you can only utilize so many at once.

Stakhanov
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2008.04.13 06:05:00 - [29]
 

New players can compete with older players... the secret is to *gasp* learn the game !

A frigate can kill pretty much any crap fitted subcapital if the pilot is poor enough.
Fast learners will figure tactics to engage and defeat targets in bigger ships with more SP than they have.

My corporation will keep recruiting new pirates that show potential. A rifter is the difference between a successful tackle and a miss , sharing only junk loot or a juicy pod ransom.

Thuranni
Eldjotnar
Posted - 2008.04.13 06:08:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Thuranni on 13/04/2008 06:11:23
Basically, once you get to a certain point, your skill advancements stop mattering much - I'd say this was about 20 million skillpoints. At that point you're on even footing against just about anyone. At about 10 million SP, if you specialize, you're competitive in most situations.

After that point, you just start being able to fly more ships, and do more diverse things, but your power doesn't really increase much.

Edit: But basically, after a few months, skills stop being the biggest factor in fights - Player (not character) experience and ship setup starts to matter more than SP.

Oh, and if you are absolutely dying to have as many SP as the oldest characters, if you amass giant piles of money, you can buy a old character and catch up that way.


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