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Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2008.04.12 08:23:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 12/04/2008 08:28:38
Admitted (mostly) carebear here so bear with me. I may be missing a lot that seems obvious to you but that is why I am here asking.

I've been noodling around low sec awhile doing carebeary stuff and naturally run into pirates. It has occurred to me I should be able to take on some of these guys (purely from an "I have better skillpoints and probably more money to fit ships" perspective...doubtless they will school me in the "You lack practical skillz" department but have to start somewhere).

I can fly most every sub-cap Amarr ship in the game (cannot do HICs). My skills are very respectable if not quite leet (max fitting skills, most gunnery at L5, lacking T2 beams but working on it and lacking T2 large guns...could get T2 Large Pulse done in a few days).

Here's my dilemma...looking at ships with an eye to PvP a lot of what I am seeing is not making sense and I figure I am missing something obvious.

My first thought was to use my Absolution. It's expensive but I can afford to lose it (not happily of course but I'll live). But I have seen people say the Harbinger is nearly as good DPS wise and not too bad a tank either and a lot less expensive. Then I read the new Zealot really obviates the need for an Abso. So looking at the stats versus price I got really confused.

Abso seems better in every way than the sub-battleship ships. Better tank, better gank.

Zealot has crap all for base stats tank wise. Pew Pew seems maybe close to an Abso.

Harbinger is cheap, pew pews near as well as an Abso/Zealot, and has a base tank near as good as an Abso (before bonuses but up there).

Arma beats all. Better tank. Better gank. And cheaper than anything but the Harb.

Harbinger - 37 million
Armageddon - 56 million
Zealot - 79 million
Absolution - 149 million

Maybe it is the crazy prices in the T2 market but that seems horribly skewed. The Abso may be better than the other cruisers but is it worth four Harbingers? I realize the law of diminishing returns works in EVE but there is diminishing and goofy.

I am also really, really missing the love for the Zealot. I can see little reason to opt for it over the Harbinger in any analysis. It gets a range bonus and a RoF bonus but has 2 fewer turrets, smaller tank and misses the hugely coveted 4th mid slot absent on most Amarr ships. Oh yeah, costs twice as much and for what? (Harb even looks cooler)

And above all the Arma simply looks like a no brainer. On a bang-for-your-buck level nothing else seems close.

As I said money is not really an issue for me insofar as any of the above are easily doable several times over including nice fittings but it doesn't mean I am blind to cost or have pockets so deep I am totally willing to ignore it.

Maybe I should get a Curse. Wink

ImmortaL ZoorZ
Cruoris Seraphim
Exalted.
Posted - 2008.04.12 08:26:00 - [2]
 

Nano harb

Nano zealot

geddon

tbh if your new to pvp you might wanna start in cruisers for a week or two just to get used to nano combat... webs are bad mk

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2008.04.12 08:30:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: ImmortaL ZoorZ
Nano harb

Nano zealot

geddon

tbh if your new to pvp you might wanna start in cruisers for a week or two just to get used to nano combat... webs are bad mk


Eh...didn't really want to join the FOTM Nano*** guild I read so much about but is there really no other practical choice to fight and survive?

Laerise
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2008.04.12 08:30:00 - [4]
 

The Abso is pretty good at what it is supposed to do and, I guess, more costly to produce. The Zealot is said to be "better" because it fits better with todays nano-speed flavour, thus needs less/no tank instead of the Abso.
I would say try out a harbi first, it is very good, if not the best BC avaiable. It is -insurable- so your first, maybe ponderous, steps into PvP are less costly -> you can make more mistakes for the same isk lost.
From what I have seen both harbi and abbadon (geddon less so) are able to hold their own if flown properly, the same goes, ofcourse, also for the more pricey zealot and abso.
My advice is to start out with a harbinger, and then, if you want more tank/raw gank, to go for an abbadon, if you want more speed and equal gank with more range, for a zealot, or if youw ant a mix of the three for the abso.
Have fun and don't be too upset if you start out loosing ships very often, it happens and can be considered learning-money paid.

Wideen
Total Mayhem.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.04.12 08:41:00 - [5]
 

Mate you have to look at the strength and weaknesses of the amarr ships (as with all ships). Depends on what you want to do really, but for starting pvp I'd suggest a Harbinger, seeing as you have the isk and skillpoints to back it up, otherwise I'd say a cruiser like the maller.

Either you make the harb tank or gank, and I'd suggest gank since that's its strength.

Here's what I do:

[Harbinger, PvP (semi-active/buffer)]
Medium Armor Repairer II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
[empty high slot]

Energy Collision Accelerator I
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

Hammerhead II x5

Good gank, semi-active buffer tank.

As for the rest of the ships, they're fine. You just need to fit them according to their intended design and you'll see them shine.

Wild Rho
Amarr
Silent Core
Posted - 2008.04.12 08:46:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Wild Rho on 12/04/2008 08:46:33
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: ImmortaL ZoorZ
Nano harb

Nano zealot

geddon

tbh if your new to pvp you might wanna start in cruisers for a week or two just to get used to nano combat... webs are bad mk


Eh...didn't really want to join the FOTM Nano*** guild I read so much about but is there really no other practical choice to fight and survive?



These days? No not really.

You really do need the ability to move fast in order to avoid groups of players and catch others - especially if flying solo. Otherwise you become fairly easy pickings for any organised group unless you are very very patient and paranoid when choosing when to engage.
The nano zealot is nice as you get a reasonable combination of speed, damage and range that works well and overall it's not too expensive a loss when you screw up and need a replacement.

ThaDollaGenerale
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.04.12 09:34:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 12/04/2008 08:28:38
It has occurred to me I should be able to take on some of these guys (purely from an "I have better skillpoints and probably more money to fit ships" perspective...doubtless they will school me in the "You lack practical skillz" department but have to start somewhere).





You hit the nail on the head. A poorly flown BS can be taken down by a surprising array of ships. Skp and money don't mean jack unless you know how to properly use a ship in pvp.


Take for example the malediction that tried to jump my osprey in a 0.0 choke point. I don't think he was ready for double web, energy neuts and ecm drones.

Epic lawl

DeadDuck
Amarr
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.04.12 09:59:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: ImmortaL ZoorZ
Nano harb

Nano zealot

geddon

tbh if your new to pvp you might wanna start in cruisers for a week or two just to get used to nano combat... webs are bad mk


FFS here comes the usual crap about nano ...nano this, nano that... You can nano a amarr ship but it doesnt work THAT well... the damage is bad, the tank is bad, the Capacitor is tottally gimped and Amarr ships REALLY need cap to do anything... Ok is fast but period. No I wasnt ganked by a nano gang... but in the end is all about that... blob, pick a lonely target shoot and run ... if a "normal" gang of the same size apears, just run... Rolling Eyes


Night Breed
Minmatar
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.04.12 10:03:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Night Breed on 12/04/2008 10:03:54
Originally by: ImmortaL ZoorZ
Nano harb

Nano zealot

geddon

tbh if your new to pvp you might wanna start in cruisers for a week or two just to get used to nano combat... webs are bad mk


See this is what makes eve un-playable at times. You don't have to nano fit everything you get your grubby little hands on. If eve was all about nano fits then we could just go for one ship and one fitting and say bye bye to all the other ships in eve. I think all nano-***s should make an alliance and stick together.

Anyways with that out of the way, if you want to pvp and have a lot of fun doing it whether you die or live, then go for either the dual heavy pulse II geddon or the heavy pulse II Harbinger. The Harbinger can be a tight fit with heavy pulse II but its worth it.

NOTE: Everything in this post is my own opinion and may or may not be the opinion of my corp or my alliance.

EDIT: oops meant post over Thread

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2008.04.12 11:07:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Wild Rho
You really do need the ability to move fast in order to avoid groups of players and catch others - especially if flying solo. Otherwise you become fairly easy pickings for any organised group unless you are very very patient and paranoid when choosing when to engage.
The nano zealot is nice as you get a reasonable combination of speed, damage and range that works well and overall it's not too expensive a loss when you screw up and need a replacement.


Well, I am risk averse. Goes hand-in-hand with being a carebear. My instinct is to get the hell out since I rarely encounter trouble flying anything that could remotely be called a combat ship.

But neither am I a wimp about it. I have skills at escape but I have lost my share of ships, have never done a logoffski and never will and have on occasion given better than I got. Nevertheless I have no illusions about still being a newb to PvP and am pretty clear on my abilities (or lack of them).

I do however want to have a go. I will not willingly engage when clearly outmatched but I will go for something that is even(ish). I do not need 5 ships with me before I decide to go gank a Rifter (but if I happen to have 5 ships with me I will still try to gank the Rifter...if I can get an unfair fight in my favor I will take it). There are some other local carebears who seems savvy so there may be occasion to group with them.

Generally I will be solo where I tend to hang out. As it happens this area does not seem to have many grouped pirates but its fair share of solo guy zooming about. So 1v1 engagements shouldn't be too hard to come by. I tend to view this more as defending my turf than active pursuit so I will not be driving hi and low looking for trouble. Plenty comes my way without need for that.

What does all that mean for me? Frankly I have no idea. Just the lay of the land as I see it but at least I think I should be able to have a go in a not too bad environment (i.e. being blobbed the second I stick my neck out but even then the blob has ways of automagically appearing).

Msobe
Posted - 2008.04.12 12:53:00 - [11]
 

If you look at picking a pvp ship in the absence of price considerations, probably the absolution will suit you best. If you factor price in, it likely drops to worst. It is a stronger ship, but at a drastically higher price. Since you lose more ships when starting out in pvp, its probably better to fly a cheaper ship, moving up the line as you gain experience.

You might also consider adding in the Arbitrator to your line up, moving into the Curse later if you can fly it. Also the Sacrilege has been a lot of fun for me, some people like it nano'd, but it does very well for me tanked. And once you're ready to fly the absolution in combat, the abaddon is an absolute monster - its just as good for pvp as it is for pve, especially if you're in a remote repping gang.

Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.04.12 13:00:00 - [12]
 

The problem with the Abso is the same as with all Field CS: they are fantastic ships, but their cost effectiveness is extremly bad.

As for comparing the Zealot with the Abso, yes the Abso has a better tank, but the Zealot is a whole lot more survivable thanks to its greater agility and speed, especially when nanoed.

Overall though, BCs and BSes are hard to beat when it comes to getting the most bang for your buck.

Meridius Dex
Amarr
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2008.04.12 13:44:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Eh...didn't really want to join the FOTM Nano*** guild I read so much about but is there really no other practical choice to fight and survive?

No. There really isn't. We are all currently suffering through the "age of nano" and will continue to see the same 6 or 7 ships in every gang, all with the same cookie-cutter nano setups until CCP gets that nerfbat in full swing - which the majority of us hope will be soon.

Of course, 99% of my combat is in zero sec. You may experience different in low sec.

adriaans
Amarr
Ankaa.
Nair Al-Zaurak
Posted - 2008.04.12 16:06:00 - [14]
 

where do you get harbingers for 37 mill?Shocked they're costing a bloody 42-45 mill in rens....Evil or Very Mad sadly using a geddon is much cheaper (considering insurance) :(



Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Ammatar Free Corps
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.04.12 16:31:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: adriaans
where do you get harbingers for 37 mill?Shocked they're costing a bloody 42-45 mill in rens....Evil or Very Mad sadly using a geddon is much cheaper (considering insurance) :(


Rens is quite bad when it comes to Amarr gear.
Generally the close to Amarr you get, the better the supply of amarr specific goods.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2008.04.12 16:42:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel
Originally by: adriaans
where do you get harbingers for 37 mill?Shocked they're costing a bloody 42-45 mill in rens....Evil or Very Mad sadly using a geddon is much cheaper (considering insurance) :(


Rens is quite bad when it comes to Amarr gear.
Generally the close to Amarr you get, the better the supply of amarr specific goods.


^^ This

36,300,000 or so in Amarr currently (just checked). A few a bit cheaper than that.

XFreedomX
Posted - 2008.04.12 17:27:00 - [17]
 

Best anti pirate ship = Curse

Potes
Amarr
Federation of Freedom Fighters
Posted - 2008.04.13 19:43:00 - [18]
 

its obviously highly dependent on ur skills as to which amarr ship is most suitable but i do admit the amarr shipline does confuse me at times... my main problem lies with the khanid as i have 10mill sp in gunnery and nothing in missiles making nearly the whole line of ships redundant... however.. the curse as the last poster said is an amazing ship. and if u fly in gangs i think u will find amarr a very suitable race... always handy to bring along extra dps in teh form of a abso or harbinger with heavy pulses... geddon can be unwieldy to fly but make very good plate ships.
Zealot is a classic ship but again not one to be flown solo. and the devoter has many uses ;-)
Pilgrim is still ****ed unfortunately recon 5 wasted...
and nr 1 advantage for amarr.. everyone always underestimates u ;-)

Gram Hellfire
Priory Of The Lemon
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2008.04.13 20:01:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Potes
its obviously highly dependent on ur skills as to which amarr ship is most suitable but i do admit the amarr shipline does confuse me at times... my main problem lies with the khanid as i have 10mill sp in gunnery and nothing in missiles making nearly the whole line of ships redundant... however.. the curse as the last poster said is an amazing ship. and if u fly in gangs i think u will find amarr a very suitable race... always handy to bring along extra dps in teh form of a abso or harbinger with heavy pulses... geddon can be unwieldy to fly but make very good plate ships.
Zealot is a classic ship but again not one to be flown solo. and the devoter has many uses ;-)
Pilgrim is still ****ed unfortunately recon 5 wasted...
and nr 1 advantage for amarr.. everyone always underestimates u ;-)



I don;t think we Amarr pilots are being underestimated these days. People are starting to realize our ships are overpowered in small gangs. I see a ton of Amarr ships in 0.0 gangs - perhaps because I'm in curse.


 

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