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Liam Thorn
Posted - 2003.06.13 03:35:00 - [1]

Thanks for not doing **** to really solve the factory and lab issue. Just got ripped for 600k by a problem you created.

I stuck by you through beta. I defended you on your own forums. You have continually fallen short of every aspect of development. You have cost me over 30 hours in retail. And I ****ing paid you.

I lost ships to your bugs LEFT FROM BETA, your lack of control of 1.0 sectors, (MOo), my corp cannot grow becuase of the real estate issue, and none of my tight knit group ended up buying this piece of ****, so I built it all again.

You did **** to fix the factory issue.

You have griefers, like MOo and Celestra (the character that robbed me) who exploit your game constantly. The only ones truely damaged by your rollbacks and bull**** are hard working, playing customers.

After I liquidate my corp, you can wad it up and stick in your cache. I'm done paying to beta test this. There is obviously a developer stuck up a managers ass, stuck up a developers.

Heh. Too bad SWG sucks so bad. Big par for CCP to meet.

Posted - 2003.06.13 07:30:00 - [2]


it's a game. So relax.


Big Al
The Aftermath
Posted - 2003.06.13 08:51:00 - [3]

And just how exactly would you propose to solve the problem?

Constructive Criticism is good, proposed (implmentable) solutions are incredibly useful, perhaps offering a second opinion to the Devs which they may not have initially considered.

Wanton abuse is a utter waste of time.

If you can't think of a better way to do it, you have no place complaining.

Hemlock and McWurzel
Posted - 2003.06.13 09:19:00 - [4]

Simple...a Corp/Individual can only rent as many factories as they can use. (Mass Production Skill, etc.)

For Corps, a cumulative 'Update With My Skills' thingey would be the way to go.

The code to do it already exists; the bit that checks to see if you can opperate more than one. Just run the rental bit off it.

Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2003.06.13 11:46:00 - [5]

"Simple...a Corp/Individual can only rent as many factories as they can use. (Mass Production Skill, etc.)"

If you stop and think aboutit for 5 seconds, that makes NO sense whatsoever.

Our corp has 50 people. Each one can use one (atleast) up to 5 slots, say average of 2. That is 100 slots right there. OK, so the corp is now limited to 100 slots - I dont see much of an improvement here.

The fact is, there would be hundreds of factories more on the market if CCP had taken the simple step of allowing cancelling factories without having to physically travel there to do so. We have about 10 unused factories that are 35 jumps away that we would be happy to free up.

Hemlock and McWurzel
Posted - 2003.06.13 11:55:00 - [6]

It's a start though, and beats the current 'One Person can theoretically own ALL the factories *everywhere*'

Maybe 'You lose the factory unless you use it at least once a week' would be better?

Making it easier for people to let factories go if that don't want them would help a lot though, yes.

Burning Technologies
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2003.06.13 12:21:00 - [7]

Why not stop complaing Thorn, ive seen your posts everywhere, if you have nothing to say but wining why dont you just quit? Maybe we are not intrested in hearing your wining all day long

Posted - 2003.06.13 12:35:00 - [8]

i have found that most who dont like the factory slots = skills idea are the ones who have way more slots than thay can use anyway.

*note i said most*

another idea that slot horders dont like is you can only keep a factory or reserch slot if it is being used and you pay rent by the hour.

Posted - 2003.06.13 12:45:00 - [9]

Well the new charges are a start and should cause the very few players who caused this problem to change their game play. For many other players, finding that the cost of a factory is now 80K for 3 days will not help their game plan much. After all thats a major cost, for a new player.

There still needs to be major work done on this issue. And as always I would like to put forward the following

1) Each station needs one or more short order factories where a player can queue up small orders of items, such as ammo, these can the be rented out by the hour or the production time of the item, with an upper limit on the time allowed.

2) Players and Corps should be limited on the number of slots they can own. For players the limits should be set on an account not on each character. For Corps it should be set by the size of the corp, players within corps should have their personnal limits reduced. Also the limits should combine factory and research slots, so someone does not end up with 5 of each.

3) People need to be able to cancel slots remotly.

4) Rental periods need to be flexable, as it stands any solo player focused on manufacturing going on holiday for more than 6 days, loses all their slots and so is dead in the water when they come back from holiday.


Calista Industries
Posted - 2003.06.13 13:20:00 - [10]

"i have found that most who dont like the factory slots = skills idea are the ones who have way more slots than thay can use anyway.

*note i said most*

another idea that slot horders dont like is you can only keep a factory or reserch slot if it is being used and you pay rent by the hour."

Depends on if it's per-station or per-person universe wide.

I currently own only 4 slots, but when my corp starts making trips to the nether regions, I'd like to buy a slot or two out there for production when we're traveling, while retaining my 4 slots back at home. (Which I DO have the skills to use and often have all four slots in use.)

If it's per-person universe-wide, a skill limit prevents me from doing this. I'm not griefing (only purchasing 6-7 slots, ALL of which I would use on a regular basis, just not simultaneously.)

An interesting feature: What if we could sublet slots that we own? Cap the rate at less than what we're paying (To prevent it from being a profitable scheme), but that way if I have 4 slots near corp HQ but I'm out in the nether regions for a few days, I can put up the slots for cheap 1-day leases. (I would even let them be used nearly for free if I could guarantee that I would regain access to the slot within a certain period of time.) Suppose after the price hike this patch that I am paying 60k each lease period of 3 days - Comes out to 20k each day. Cap the rate at which I could sublet the slot at 10-15k each day to ensure that I can't make a profit by griefing the slots and reselling access at a higher price.

And Liam - Please just shut up and go away.

Edited by: BSOD on 13/06/2003 13:20:17

Posted - 2003.06.13 16:40:00 - [11]

There were plenty of sensible posts to answer this problem in the last forums. Go read those.

They related around linking Corporation ownership of factories to the number of Factory Managers, and each ones Mass Production skill, and limitting the number of factory managers in a corporation.

Plenty of sensible do-able options. This is just like the 'FIX' for the recycle exploit, which just gave you increased cost because it was easier to code then fix the original issue. PS this still means that recycle exploit exhists, just stack lots of pirate loot items and recycle, you will still get high end minerals back for free. It didn't address the rounding issues/recycle crafted item values.

Base market goods will basically not be manufactured now with increased factory and mineral costs, but no decrease in time. It will mean ammunition and other items won't be made. People will just make ships, and what when the market is overflowing with ships and no one to buy them?

> And Liam - Please just shut up and go away.

Sadly thats about all these forums seem to be good for. What is constructive about that?

Hell I write software and I still agree. We are paying for beta testing here. Beta isn't a glimpse of the game before its released as some people think. Beta is the testing of a product to find and fix bugs. Hell after buying the retail basics of the game weren't in the game, or some elements even working (market issues). I don't think he is out of place raising these issues again, perhaps the use language you don't agree with, but still...

He is spot on about the issue still. No matter how he phrased it.

Edited by: Ruffles on 13/06/2003 16:44:28

Calista Industries
Posted - 2003.06.13 16:49:00 - [12]

There is no recycle exploit.

You get 75% of the minerals from recycling. The only benefit to stacking is that you will get minerals that might otherwise round out. You will never exceed 75%, only less. (Optimum stack size = 4)

So what if high-end pirate loot results in minerals? Those aren't free in any way, shape, or form. Loot that recycles for valuable minerals drops off of pirates that are very difficult. It's not like a 30k bounty pirate is going to say to a n00b in a Velator, "I'm going to die now, here's some really valuable stuff!"

Same for crafted items. Stacking just helps you get a 75% recovery rate, no more.

Show me ONE EXAMPLE of being able to make a profit by recycling stacked items that you've produced or paid mineral cost for. Pirate loot doesn't count, since you have to work hard for the good stuff. (And the stuff that recycles for large values will often sell for far more on EVEAuction... Is EVEAuction an exploit???)

I have no problem with people providing constructive criticism. But if someone's going to simply say, "CCP U SUCK I'M QUITTING!" (Which is basically what everything Liam said sums up to and nothing more.), then good riddens. I'm glad they're leaving.

Edited by: BSOD on 13/06/2003 16:50:41

Alpha Empire
Posted - 2003.06.13 19:44:00 - [13]

*shameless plug*

If you want to read about one possible solution check this thread.

Posted - 2003.06.13 23:25:00 - [14]

>>For many other players, finding that the cost of a factory is now 80K for 3 days will not help their game plan much. After all thats a major cost, for a new player.<<

New players shouldn't be making much of anything. They don't have the money to do so, because they ARE new players. 80k a day IS alot, but it will force peolpe to use the slots to make things, then unrent them. At that price there will be slots open to make things. The factorys were NOT put in for every single person in the game to make all their own stuff! That is why there is a market. By increasing factory prices, it will increase the amount of items bought from corps that manufacture items, thereby bettering the whole of the EVE market outlook.

Eric Bannon
Posted - 2003.06.24 21:39:00 - [15]

Anyone flaming people for getting mad about CCP "GRIEFING" them in this manner can go **** off.

People are paying money to "enjoy" this game. And CCPs apparent lack of development and operations expertise are taking thier money elsewhere. Good for them and me.

You **** head blind consumers should send me you money instead. I will gladly **** you over for it to get my money back from CCP.

Posted - 2003.06.25 08:49:00 - [16]

Oh, what a shame, you don't enjoy the game... too bad.

Do you people whine like this about every bad game you buy? Do you wander around games stores picking games at random, and then abusing the developers if you don't like the game?

So you don't like it... so stop playing. I, along with the majority of the 5000-odd people I see online every night, enjoy it just fine. CCP can't make a perfect game out of the box - if you stopped and thought for a moment you'd realise why... but they are doing a sterling job of listening to their customers and fixing up the bugs.

Posted - 2003.06.25 10:47:00 - [17]

Please, some people seem to be getting a little stressed!

If you don't like the game they just don't play it!

And if you were lucky enough to be in the Beta then you should be using all your experience with the game to your advantage, not moaning because sombody else is.



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