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Traeon
Posted - 2008.03.31 13:49:00 - [31]
 

Expanding skills, yes.. slowly and horizontally, not vertically.

Vertical expansion = bigger, better ships. Good example are capitals. This can't go on forever as the gap between newer and older players gets a little bit larger everytime.
Horizontal expansion = more variety in existing ship classes and making sure all existing ships are useful. Good example are electronic attack frigs.


Waxau
Muppet Ninja's
Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
Posted - 2008.03.31 13:53:00 - [32]
 

A simple reply, for a simple point.

Eve is popular with the older players, due to its complicated, huge, dynamic design. Add more skills - More content. More content, more complicated. More complicated = Better (In many aspects, although not all :P)

However, the issue with us older players, is that ALL that becomes available to us in skill trees, are the larger ships. Im told not to fly interceptors, because i have the higher skills to fly better ships (bs 5 etc).

What i would LOVE is a spec'd small ship. A pilotable fighter perhaps. Nothing overkill, but something DIFFERENT than a battleship or CBC that i can fly.

Ceptors are the most enjoyable thing for me. Yet i lack any reason to fly them.

Traeon
Posted - 2008.03.31 13:57:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Traeon on 31/03/2008 13:57:36
Originally by: Waxau
A simple reply, for a simple point.

Eve is popular with the older players, due to its complicated, huge, dynamic design. Add more skills - More content. More content, more complicated. More complicated = Better (In many aspects, although not all :P)

However, the issue with us older players, is that ALL that becomes available to us in skill trees, are the larger ships. Im told not to fly interceptors, because i have the higher skills to fly better ships (bs 5 etc).

What i would LOVE is a spec'd small ship. A pilotable fighter perhaps. Nothing overkill, but something DIFFERENT than a battleship or CBC that i can fly.

Ceptors are the most enjoyable thing for me. Yet i lack any reason to fly them.


Are you thinking of new ceptor ship that has higher requirements than the other two models and is slightly better?

Something which would require Interceptors V and High-speed Maneuvering V or so.

Or something else entirely, like a completely new shipclass?

Havohej
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics
Posted - 2008.03.31 13:58:00 - [34]
 

Christ man, if you want there to be a ceiling that everybody can catch that won't take more than a couple of months for everyone to have the same uber stuff and maximum "skill points" and whatever else...

gb2WoW

Rolling Eyes

Traeon
Posted - 2008.03.31 14:02:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Traeon on 31/03/2008 14:04:10
Originally by: Havohej
Christ man, if you want there to be a ceiling that everybody can catch that won't take more than a couple of months for everyone to have the same uber stuff and maximum "skill points" and whatever else...

gb2WoW

Rolling Eyes


How ironic to hear this from someone with a Wow reference in his corp name.

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2008.03.31 14:06:00 - [36]
 

IIRC if you trained *every* skill to L5 it would take something on the order of 25 years (literally) to complete. As such even the most highly skilled players are a loooong way from having everything covered and being uber. The highest SP character in EVE recently passed 100 mil skillpoints and he can barely fly more than a shuttle (has almost no ship skills, he's all industry).

The point is even a new player can specialize and get quite good in one area within six months or so. They can be useful and dangerous in groups in less than three months. All the older players have on them is likely a wider selection of ships so while the new guy may only be able to fly a dictor really well the older player can fly the dictor and battleship and command ship well.

As for EVE becoming "Cap Ships Online" CCP has already stated that the cap ship swarms they see are not how they want EVE to be and are looking at ways to reduce their huge numbers. Of course they will face a rabid (frothing at the mouth and everything) community of cap ship pilots as indicated by doing nothing more than nerfing a carrier's cargo hold but it needs doing and I hope CCP gets around to it sooner rather than later. Once that happens there should be more of a role for younger players who cannot fly cap ships.

Annaphera
Minmatar
United Freemerchants Society
Posted - 2008.03.31 14:13:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Has anyone ever stopped to consider that mining purely for ISK gain may not be the intended purpose of mining? At least not for older players. I remember the days when taking in a 200,000 ISK load of ore in a Retriever constituted a significant increase in my wallet size, which is fine, but at this point can't compare at all to low sec ratting or level 4 missions. Mining is a part of the manufacturing cycle, not a source of major personal profit. I forget why I decided to make this post, although it was in response to some idea that somebody put forth somewhere in this thread. I think. It's my opinion on mining though and I stick by it.
Have you ever stopped to consider that the only reason mining is a viable source of income is that there are manufacturers that are too busy (or lazy) to run out and mine for themselves? The minute that happens, mining becomes a possible source of income, and mineral prices and such will adjust until the miners feel at least moderately compensated for their work.

Xthril Ranger
hirr
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.03.31 14:23:00 - [38]
 

"The cleft between new and old is increasing rapidly."

If you look at a 1 month character and a 1 year old character and then look at the same characters 6 months later, the gap will be decreasing. The youngest will train to be able to use as much gear as possible , the oldest will train lvl 5s to get the last 5% out of the gear he already can use.

That there is always something new to learn is what keep eve interesting. Few people have done everything in eve, flown all the ships, did all the carebear stuff and all types of manufacturing. I want to, but I also want the devs to add more stuff to do so I never reach that goal.

Any 10 mill character will beat my 60 mill sp character in PvP if he manages to think fast when stuff gets interesting. I do not and make too many errors and always end up being the one that die in 1v1.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2008.03.31 15:22:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: wamingo
This is not a request for more skills.

This is a preemptive attempt to discuss whether it's necessary to release more skills, ships and tools, so that veterans continue to have something to look forward to.
Sounds reasonable, but...

The cleft between new and old is increasing rapidly.
Does that make a good game? If the release of new skills continues, won't the gap become too big?

Truth is, it probably already has become too big. Capital ships are taking over eve and it's hurting sub 1 year old players quite badly. They probably won't get to see half as much fun as we used to have.
And what will the future bring? Won't it just get worse?
Should veterans really be able to pull away like this?
Do they really care about having so much?



Your argument about capital ships could be turned the other way around. As an exemple, I have 50M SP, nearly maxxed gunnery and spaceship skills, could get the skills to fly every single T2 ship within 2 months if I wanted to. Now, I could max more skills in mechanics, engineering and the like, but that would hardly give me a signifiant performance increase in my chosen playstyle.

Now, capital ships excepted, what really new thing do I have to look for? Not much.

More ships, more skills to get more specialized wouldn't hurt, imho.

I don't think it would necessarily mean a bigger gap between newbies and veterans. Whatever happen, a newbie can get the skills for an interceptor or AF or even a battlecruiser really fast, and be very usefull on the field.


Speaking of battlecruisers, they're a good exemple of what could be done to reduce an eventual gap between a newbie and a vet. The Tier2 BC haven't been called the "newbie's field command ships" for nothing, after all.


Quote:

Please factor in your bias before you answer. This is a very competitive game and as such many players could wish for more skills simply to grant them more power. It may be a valid reason as well, but isn't it more noble to wish this game to be one of skill, rather than skillpoints?



You have to reach a balance between a situation where veterans will crush newbs without blinking (aka Wow) and another where they're so little difference between a noob and a vet that there's little point being a vet to begin with.

Forget about individual player skills, the concept is good in solo pvp, but has few bearing when there's 30+ players on each side. In those cases individual skill is replaced by communication, discipline and sheer luck.

Eve is already one of the most newb-friendly MMORPG, if not the most, of the industry, with it's skill based system, and difference between T1 and T2 ships.

hellraiser reborn
Posted - 2008.03.31 16:42:00 - [40]
 

If you can't run with the big dogs stay on the porch.When I started this game I had to earn and learn every skill point,now beginning characters a.k.a. newbs are handed skill point like candy. I never once complained or whined that "Its not fair they got more skill points than me". Hey Einstein they started earlier in the game than you did,thus they should have more skill points.My main at a little over 2 years I still consider a newb. So in a nut shell quit your whining.

Kaishain
Posted - 2008.03.31 17:24:00 - [41]
 

I'd like to see more ship specific skills.
Rank 10-30 skills that add very little in bonuses and only for one specific ship.
Eg: Advanced Bantam manouvering: Rank 10 skill, adds 1 percent to miningyield per level. Or Advanced Hurricane Manouvering: Rank 16 skill, adds 1 percent to damage or some other attribute.

This would make it possible to specialize in ones favourite ship while not being overpowered. The guy who doesn't choose to specialize would be able to train 2-4 other "regular" shipclass-skills to lv 5 in the same time.

Erotic Irony
0bsession
Posted - 2008.03.31 17:52:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Erotic Irony on 31/03/2008 17:53:08
Originally by: Kaishain
I'd like to see more ship specific skills.
Rank 10-30 skills that add very little in bonuses and only for one specific ship.
Eg: Advanced Bantam manouvering: Rank 10 skill, adds 1 percent to miningyield per level. Or Advanced Hurricane Manouvering: Rank 16 skill, adds 1 percent to damage or some other attribute.

This would make it possible to specialize in ones favourite ship while not being overpowered. The guy who doesn't choose to specialize would be able to train 2-4 other "regular" shipclass-skills to lv 5 in the same time.


There is a difference between rank 8 or 5 spec skills and what you're suggesting--do you know how long it takes to train a rank 16 skill to level four? Two digit specs for 1-2% damage or performance gain won't happen in that form as its wildly ridiculous and counterintuitive to the whole concept of diminished return, overheating the guns for a little more temporary DPS is more realistic.

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2008.03.31 18:13:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Annaphera
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Has anyone ever stopped to consider that mining purely for ISK gain may not be the intended purpose of mining? At least not for older players. I remember the days when taking in a 200,000 ISK load of ore in a Retriever constituted a significant increase in my wallet size, which is fine, but at this point can't compare at all to low sec ratting or level 4 missions. Mining is a part of the manufacturing cycle, not a source of major personal profit. I forget why I decided to make this post, although it was in response to some idea that somebody put forth somewhere in this thread. I think. It's my opinion on mining though and I stick by it.

Have you ever stopped to consider that the only reason mining is a viable source of income is that there are manufacturers that are too busy (or lazy) to run out and mine for themselves? The minute that happens, mining becomes a possible source of income, and mineral prices and such will adjust until the miners feel at least moderately compensated for their work.


But who said it wasn't a viable source of income? My post speculated that mining may not have been intended for that purpose, which to be honest doesn't really make much of a difference in the broad scheme of things since there are many aspects of Eve that have expanded beyond their original intent. My original post was more of a criticism of the complaint that someone couldn't pay for a GTC by mining. Missions and ratting are more profitable by a fair degree if done right, which means less time spent in-game going towards making the ISK that you need to continue playing.

JeanClaude DuSoir
Anqara Expeditions
The OSS
Posted - 2008.03.31 18:41:00 - [44]
 

You're going to have this with any game where RL time is a (significant) factor. It's been said that the average EVE player sticks around for around 6 months. If this is the case, then the gap between "new" and "old" is going to continue to grow. Meanwhile, the "old" are far more experienced than I (18 months here).

Any time-reference game is going to have this gap. That gap will grow every day, every hour, and every minute.

Would you rather have the ability to "power level" into a cap ship in a week? I certainly wouldn't.

Remember this: every ship is important. Every point, every web, every warrior drone. 10 frigates do the same 1000 dps as a fully T2 Hyperion and cost a fraction of that BB hull. And with an intelligent combination of TD, ECM, point, web, and minimal skills those 10 frigates can render those 8 neutron blaster II's worthless.

Kaishain
Posted - 2008.04.01 06:13:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Erotic Irony
Edited by: Erotic Irony on 31/03/2008 17:53:08
Originally by: Kaishain
I'd like to see more ship specific skills.
Rank 10-30 skills that add very little in bonuses and only for one specific ship.
Eg: Advanced Bantam manouvering: Rank 10 skill, adds 1 percent to miningyield per level. Or Advanced Hurricane Manouvering: Rank 16 skill, adds 1 percent to damage or some other attribute.

This would make it possible to specialize in ones favourite ship while not being overpowered. The guy who doesn't choose to specialize would be able to train 2-4 other "regular" shipclass-skills to lv 5 in the same time.


There is a difference between rank 8 or 5 spec skills and what you're suggesting--do you know how long it takes to train a rank 16 skill to level four? Two digit specs for 1-2% damage or performance gain won't happen in that form as its wildly ridiculous and counterintuitive to the whole concept of diminished return, overheating the guns for a little more temporary DPS is more realistic.


Nobody would force you to train the skill.

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2008.04.01 06:15:00 - [46]
 

Rank 16 may be a bit high, but I wouldn't be opposed to skills that add small bonuses to individual ship types.

Kaishain
Posted - 2008.04.01 06:18:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Rank 16 may be a bit high, but I wouldn't be opposed to skills that add small bonuses to individual ship types.


The idea would be to keep the trainingtime high so that the decision to specialize doesn't become mandatory.
As it is today, if you fly a sub capital ship on a regular basis there is very little that speaks against to fully train the ship-skill.

ry ry
Heroes.
Merciless.
Posted - 2008.04.01 12:19:00 - [48]
 

OP. There are only so many skillpoints you can spunk into any one ship. you can be easily as skilled in your racial cruiser/frigate as an 70mil SP player within six months.

the extra skill points add versatility, not ability.

Djinn Phluxx
Posted - 2008.04.01 12:53:00 - [49]
 

My preemptive response would be...


Yes, it makes a good game. No, the gap won't become too big.

A. If a game doesn't expand, upper level players will eventually get bored and quit. Some might check back from time to time, but that's about it.

B. If there were only older, veteran players..and the guy that signed up yesterday, the gap would be too big. As it stands, there are the older players..the players that signed up a month after them...the players that signed up a month after those...etc and so on. There's a slope of players so new people would tend to see a mix of skill sets...not just a bunch of uber elite BAMOFOS flying around.

wamingo
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2008.04.01 19:18:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: wamingo on 01/04/2008 19:19:58
First, I apologize for the walls of text, but it's in the hope of better understanding, as I've almost only gotten mis-interpreted answers thus far.

Truth is, I didn't really start this thread to enter the New vs Old player debate. It's just one of several factors for why the topic deserves debate.
My real beef is obsoletion in general.

When cruisers become flying dust to Heavy Assault ships.
And when Heavy Assault becomes useless to something else up the line - whose requisites are proportionally higher. This is the real issue.

Anyhow...
I think we can break the opposition into:

That the game is sufficiently complex that obsoletion is unimportant.
That stagnation will occur if superior stuff is not regularly released.
That solo players has nothing better to do than grind the next level.
That capital ships (or insert own choice) will be nerfed (definite maybe).
And that x months/years is not all that long.

However a few have agreed that expansion should happen in a horizontal fashion rather than vertical.
I did actually try to propose this in the OP (just not as elegantly) - however with the added note that, if the pre-requisites continue vertically, the problem easily ends up persisting.
Eg. if ship class A, that takes a year worth of skills, can only be taken out by a ship class A or B, that also require 1 year worth of skills, you got a serious problem. Cap ships and assorted other is one example.

Yes, the game is very complex. Does that mean it would be OK for the Raven to be the i-win of battleships? Obviously not. Balance DOES matter. The math matters. On all levels. Period.

Maybe X months is not so long to some players of eve... But there's a lot of evidence to the contrary.
For instance, as already stated, the subscription turnaround is quite short - compared to how long it takes to get anywhere.
And the amount of times we've all quit, and since returned, speaks for itself. Who hasn't been inclined to pause their subscription while waiting for a 20+ day skill requisite to finish?
And the phrase "1 year old noob" rings throughout eve.
Fact is, x months is a long time, even in eve. It's a very long time to do nothing but grind and/or be meatshield, or even becoming obsolete pre 1 year. Is that sustainable in the long run?

Let's turn the question a little...
Is infinite expansion necessary when the features allows so much expansion in themselves?
Does the game need to cater to solo player's cravings for more powerful stuff, when real power is achievable elsewhere?

Let's say for a moment, that ccp announced the end of the expansion of the (vertical) skilltree, tomorrow. My expectations would be it would encourage pvp, entice territorial spread and expansion, boost consumption and the economy and so forth.
Why? Because, without a looming next level to be grinded, expansion must be found elsewhere. It is not found elsewhere in WoW, but it is in EVE.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.04.01 20:38:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Traeon
Expanding skills, yes.. slowly and horizontally, not vertically.

Vertical expansion = bigger, better ships. Good example are capitals. This can't go on forever as the gap between newer and older players gets a little bit larger everytime.
Horizontal expansion = more variety in existing ship classes and making sure all existing ships are useful. Good example are electronic attack frigs.




Excellent post.

ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2008.04.01 20:45:00 - [52]
 

I'm very appeased with the fact that I don't bother training say large XXX specialization to lvl5 for that uber 2% extra damage but rather train all races to lvl5!

For myself, variety > specialization, so as you figured, you can't please them all.

The way things are now works fine methinks. Would love even more ships available than reinventing the wheel. (faction bc's, AF's -hell fix the AF's lol- etc etc)

Adrielle Firewalker
Minmatar
Amarr Will Eat Itself
Posted - 2008.04.01 22:31:00 - [53]
 

More skills would be nice. Not entirely sure what though.

I have two chars that are nearly 5 years old now. I thought having one as an industry spec and one as a Minmatar spec would keep me busy, but I am actually running out of things to train without breaking my original plans for the chars... I'm not going to train hybrids and lasers on the combat char, and I'm not likely to do much combat training on the industry/science/trading char either.

Its mostly about optimizing and tweaking what I have now. Getting odds and ends up to level five and so on.

So, yeah... more skills would be nice, but otherwise I'm perfectly content to sit down for a while and work out exactly what my 'gameplan' is with what's available.

Maybe more ship-specific skills, thinking about it: Like some ships have 'roles', have a skill that increases the effectiveness of *that particular ship's* role... So someone could be a Bellicose specialist (though, not sure why they'd want to...Neutral)

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2008.04.01 22:55:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Burnharder
Meh.


Meh. The LOCAL channel will soon be nerfed, and low sec will become viable again. All you have to do is park a bunch of n00b chars at safespots in the system you want to mine. Their presence will increase the count of players in the system, but since no one will show up in LOCAL until they speak, pirates will not know if the 15-20 extra people in the system are AFK n00bs, or friends of their target waiting to spring a trap.

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2008.04.01 23:10:00 - [55]
 

Well this is coming from one that is a real noob. Right around 6 months game time. I read the thread and these ideas poped into my head for some horizontal skill expansion. Once again these are ideas and come from someone who has only scratched the surface of the massive knowledge base within the EVE Universe.

I kept the list to the smaller ships since those are the ones that i have the most experiance. I think I am going about skill training in a more traditional way, well as traditional as it can go considering the SP I got at charater creation. I by no means need or want these but since no one has really put forth an idea I thought I would step in.


Frigates
- a skill that allows some type of bonus to tackling per level
- A skill to drop in signature radius per level
- A skill to add a .5 km bonus to webber optimal range per level = +2.5 km

EW Frigates Add a skill to slightly increase optimal range or effectiveness of each
races EW modules.

Assault Frigates A skill to add an additional amount of DPS per level

Covert Ops Add a skill that increase cloaked speed (not much)


____________________________________________________________________________________________
Slade Trillgon
Siorai Iontach
Brotherhood of the Spider
"Never sit with your back towards the door"

Shakuul
Caldari
RuffRyders
Axiom Empire
Posted - 2008.04.02 00:55:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: wamingo
This is a preemptive attempt to discuss whether it's necessary to release more skills, ships and tools, so that veterans continue to have something to look forward to.
Sounds reasonable, but...

The cleft between new and old is increasing rapidly.
Does that make a good game? If the release of new skills continues, won't the gap become too big?

Truth is, it probably already has become too big. Capital ships are taking over eve and it's hurting sub 1 year old players quite badly. They probably won't get to see half as much fun as we used to have.
And what will the future bring? Won't it just get worse?
Should veterans really be able to pull away like this?
Do they really care about having so much?

Is the pinacle of EVE really indefinite skill training and the ability to fly new ships every few months, ships that makes the previous incarnations obsolete?
The sytem is akin to most mmo's leveling systems. eg WoW's level 60 to 70 expansion as the release of T3. Is that what we want? Occasional obsoletion?

Personally, I would like to see all ships serve a role, new and old, where new ships are not better than the old ones, merely different. Nor more expensive. Value tends to create expectations of power - which is no good.
The pinacle of eve should be epic battles and epic money making schemes, not an indefinite leveling system. Or what.

What do you think?
Is it time to stop expanding the skill tree? Perhaps even reducing it, or the time to skill or perhaps the value of said skills? (aka value of ships).
Is it time to stop releasing new ships and tools that reduces old ships to dust in your hangars?
Would it be wise for T3 etc, to NOT require another set of skills? Alternatively make T3 completely replace everything, start from a fresh, and have no previous skill requirements?

Please factor in your bias before you answer. This is a very competitive game and as such many players could wish for more skills simply to grant them more power. It may be a valid reason as well, but isn't it more noble to wish this game to be one of skill, rather than skillpoints?

I'm doing this now rather than when it's too late to discuss it - even though you can argue it already is. Let's get the facts straight because CCP will go in their own direction without our conscent if we don't. Perhaps they will anyway, but at least then we will know who to blame.


I think in general more (well chosen) skills make for a more interesting game because they force specialization, which hopefully fosters cooperation (or just results in everyone getting 4 accounts). If you have too few skills everyone can be a jack of all trades with a single account, which I think is problematic.

A large number of the skills are somewhat redundant. Yes, you can train every science skill in the game if you really wanted, but you only need one to use research agents, and you only need a couple to occupy a T2 manufacturing niche. You could get every ore refining skill in the game, or just a couple for the ores you commonly mine. You could skip mining altogether (many players do). You could train every weapon and every ship class, but you probably do fine sticking to one race. Pvpers can skip industrials completely. People can choose to focus on capital ships or command ships or whatever.

Most of the corp-leadership skills are used by a single dummy character with an obscenely high charisma who exists for the sole purpose of training these skills. The fact that these skills exist and add to the total number of skills isn't a problem; new players don't really lose out...they shouldn't be starting their own corps with their mains anyway.

Finally, if the gap ever becomes so big that a new player wants to skip ahead, they can make some isk and buy one of the many characters with tens of millions of SP for sale on the forums.

So I would say CCP add all the skills you want.


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