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wamingo
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2008.03.30 20:56:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: wamingo on 31/03/2008 00:52:31
Edited by: wamingo on 31/03/2008 00:50:47
This is not a request for more skills.

This is a preemptive attempt to discuss whether it's necessary to release more skills, ships and tools, so that veterans continue to have something to look forward to.
Sounds reasonable, but...

The cleft between new and old is increasing rapidly.
Does that make a good game? If the release of new skills continues, won't the gap become too big?

Truth is, it probably already has become too big. Capital ships are taking over eve and it's hurting sub 1 year old players quite badly. They probably won't get to see half as much fun as we used to have.
And what will the future bring? Won't it just get worse?
Should veterans really be able to pull away like this?
Do they really care about having so much?

Is the pinacle of EVE really indefinite skill training and the ability to fly new ships every few months, ships that makes the previous incarnations obsolete?
The sytem is akin to most mmo's leveling systems. eg WoW's level 60 to 70 expansion as the release of T3. Is that what we want? Occasional obsoletion?

Personally, I would like to see all ships serve a role, new and old, where new ships are not better than the old ones, merely different. Nor more expensive. Value tends to create expectations of power - which is no good.
The pinacle of eve should be epic battles and epic money making schemes, not an indefinite leveling system. Or what.

What do you think?
Is it time to stop expanding the skill tree? Perhaps even reducing it, or the time to skill or perhaps the value of said skills? (aka value of ships).
Is it time to stop releasing new ships and tools that reduces old ships to dust in your hangars?
Would it be wise for T3 etc, to NOT require another set of skills? Alternatively make T3 completely replace everything, start from a fresh, and have no previous skill requirements?

Please factor in your bias before you answer. This is a very competitive game and as such many players could wish for more skills simply to grant them more power. It may be a valid reason as well, but isn't it more noble to wish this game to be one of skill, rather than skillpoints?

I'm doing this now rather than when it's too late to discuss it - even though you can argue it already is. Let's get the facts straight because CCP will go in their own direction without our conscent if we don't. Perhaps they will anyway, but at least then we will know who to blame.

Discuss.

edit: rephrasing "class based" to ship roles

Andrest Disch
Amarr
Debitum Naturae
Posted - 2008.03.30 21:07:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Andrest Disch on 30/03/2008 21:08:06
Nah, maybe if skill levels were infinate, but at the moment if a new player specialises in a ship that new playerwill be as good as a older player good possibly be at that ship. Be it a Frigate, Battleship, HAC.. et cetera.

The only thing is that older players will have more ships they can use well, but new players can combat that by training more ships aswell.

And if capital ships get to populated, CCP will probably just make them alot less useful - or even more specific to their roles.

Atleast, that's how i've come to see it..

Edit; Though ofcours emore skills should be enterred into the game, and there shouldn't be any "classes" as such. That would just make Eve, un-eve-like. o.O

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2008.03.30 21:09:00 - [3]
 

Cap ships haven't taken over Low Sec, and they usually only mass in large numbers for a POS takedown or a confrontation with an enemy cap fleet. I don't believe that removing any skills or ships is a good step.

I think that any future expansion of ships and skills needs to branch OUTWARD as opposed to upward. That is, new ships and skills to fill new tactical niches or perform some specialty purpose, as opposed to just making things bigger or more powerful.

AndrewRyan
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2008.03.30 21:09:00 - [4]
 

I think CCP should seriously consider knocking back some of the T2 prerequisites from level 5s to level 4s as the training times are high, and its not so much the individual skill its all the other skills and items to use a said item or ship as well like the total training time for a HAC and the T2 weapons for it can be 3 or even 4 months and a HAC is pretty much the one of lowest common standards of pvp vessel.

And its not about making the game easier its just common sense its been touted that the usual lifespan of an account is 7 months and why is that? its because around the 7-9 month point that you hit a huge amount of 10-20 day skills and some things require you to have 4-5 such skills, CCP seem to rely on the time sinks to guarantee income but it cannot last forever, A good MMO has lots of content and EVE has a lot of content but users are unnecessarily restricted from it and told "come back in 6 months to fly that"

I can understand capitol ships and command ships requiring huge training times but anything cruiser sized and smaller should not take as long imo, especially considering the hefty swings of the nerf bat that are a common occurrence.

Recent additions don't have as stringent training requisites like HICs and the Marauders but that does nothing to modify the existing skill trees.

Luh Windan
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
Posted - 2008.03.30 21:12:00 - [5]
 

So you would like to make my experience better by reducing the huge amount of things I currently have lying ahead of me (I'm 3 or 4 months in)?

How are Cap ships hurting me - I mean apart from the fact they make me want to go sight seeing to see one they have no impact on me right now - when I give 0.0 a try maybe my opinion will change.

And what do I give a f*ck if there are vets in the game? There is such a lot of things to do - and ok I can't single handedly take on an alliance but one day (if I choose) I have the option of being in the thick of wars and 0.0 politics..

More choice not less - one of the things that is so cool about this game is the huge amount of complexity and the many many ways of playing things.

Perhaps you are jaded - but what seems dull to you is quite exciting for all us on the learning curve - and yes of course it will never be as good as when it was in beta when the ships where made of wood and traveling from one system to another to a week of real time and space was vast and men where men and small furry creatures from alpha centurai where small furry creatures from alpha centurai - but that doens't mean that for us who never experienced that what we have now isn't good . I look forward to being a jaded old vet myself......



Winterblink
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.03.30 21:14:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: AndrewRyan
Recent additions don't have as stringent training requisites like HICs and the Marauders but that does nothing to modify the existing skill trees.

Those are specialized ships. Specialization should require commitment and investment, because they're going to excel in their respective areas of specialization more than a general ship (with less stringent requirements) will allow you to.

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2008.03.30 21:16:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: AndrewRyan
And its not about making the game easier its just common sense its been touted that the usual lifespan of an account is 7 months and why is that? its because around the 7-9 month point that you hit a huge amount of 10-20 day skills and some things require you to have 4-5 such skills, CCP seem to rely on the time sinks to guarantee income but it cannot last forever, A good MMO has lots of content and EVE has a lot of content but users are unnecessarily restricted from it and told "come back in 6 months to fly that"

I can understand capitol ships and command ships requiring huge training times but anything cruiser sized and smaller should not take as long imo, especially considering the hefty swings of the nerf bat that are a common occurrence.


The number of months it takes to hit the level cap in WoW or DAoC can be counted with the fingers on one hand. **** every Eve player who wants to max out in Eve in such a short timespan. Enough said.

Estel Arador
Posted - 2008.03.30 21:17:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: wamingo
Truth is, it probably already has become too big. Capital ships are taking over eve and it's hurting sub 1 year old players quite badly. They probably won't get to see half as much fun as we used to have.


But they can be "sub 1 year old players" only for a limited amount of time (about 1 year, I'd say).

AndrewRyan
Amarr
Imperial Academy
Posted - 2008.03.30 21:19:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: AndrewRyan on 30/03/2008 21:20:51
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: AndrewRyan
Recent additions don't have as stringent training requisites like HICs and the Marauders but that does nothing to modify the existing skill trees.

Those are specialized ships. Specialization should require commitment and investment, because they're going to excel in their respective areas of specialization more than a general ship (with less stringent requirements) will allow you to.



I was pointing out that those new ships where introduced with comparatively lower training requirements like HICs not needing interdictor and interceptor skills.

Originally by: Dirk Magnum
Originally by: AndrewRyan
And its not about making the game easier its just common sense its been touted that the usual lifespan of an account is 7 months and why is that? its because around the 7-9 month point that you hit a huge amount of 10-20 day skills and some things require you to have 4-5 such skills, CCP seem to rely on the time sinks to guarantee income but it cannot last forever, A good MMO has lots of content and EVE has a lot of content but users are unnecessarily restricted from it and told "come back in 6 months to fly that"

I can understand capitol ships and command ships requiring huge training times but anything cruiser sized and smaller should not take as long imo, especially considering the hefty swings of the nerf bat that are a common occurrence.


The number of months it takes to hit the level cap in WoW or DAoC can be counted with the fingers on one hand. **** every Eve player who wants to max out in Eve in such a short timespan. Enough said.


Who said anything about maxing out?

J Valkor
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.03.30 21:20:00 - [10]
 

Cap ships have taken over low sec?

LeeLee Zar
Caldari
AsceNt.
Freedom of Elbas
Posted - 2008.03.30 21:22:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Dirk Magnum
I think that any future expansion of ships and skills needs to branch OUTWARD as opposed to upward. That is, new ships and skills to fill new tactical niches or perform some specialty purpose, as opposed to just making things bigger or more powerful.


^ Agreed

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.03.30 21:25:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: LeeLee Zar
Originally by: Dirk Magnum
I think that any future expansion of ships and skills needs to branch OUTWARD as opposed to upward. That is, new ships and skills to fill new tactical niches or perform some specialty purpose, as opposed to just making things bigger or more powerful.


^ Agreed


/signed

Niccolado Starwalker
Gallente
Shadow Templars
Posted - 2008.03.30 21:40:00 - [13]
 


Even if EVEMon tells me it will take me 7 years to train the skills I "need" to make my character the way I want it, CCP should never ever ever EVER! Stop adding skills!

You see, I am a skill-o-holic! And I am always looking for new delicious skills to train! ugh


Overwhelmed
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2008.03.30 22:00:00 - [14]
 

I think an excellent new direction would be to shoot for hybrid combat + transport/mining ships. Seems one of the bigger problems for small groups of industrialists is that guards don't want to stick around and do nothing, then the miners do nothing if they attacked. Make say something with half the cargo and some decent turret slots. This way, miners could still go to low sec and mine and not feel completely helpless in the face of a solo pirate. Just an idea. . .

Burnharder
Posted - 2008.03.30 22:09:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Overwhelmed
I think an excellent new direction would be to shoot for hybrid combat + transport/mining ships. Seems one of the bigger problems for small groups of industrialists is that guards don't want to stick around and do nothing, then the miners do nothing if they attacked. Make say something with half the cargo and some decent turret slots. This way, miners could still go to low sec and mine and not feel completely helpless in the face of a solo pirate. Just an idea. . .


Meh. You can set up the mid slots of your hulk with ewar if you want. Your problem with low sec mining isn't technological, it's tactical. The tools are there for you to mine safely in low sec: map, exploration, transports, scanner, local.

Kerfira
Kerfira Corp
Posted - 2008.03.30 22:12:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Kerfira on 30/03/2008 22:16:06
The problem is not so much veterans training more skills as it is veteran CHARACTERS being sold on to new players. If character trading was not possible, veteran characters would leave the game eventually.

New skills are not really a problem as they just generally gives players new options. Older players have more options, but you can't get better than a certain level (all relevant skills to 5) in one ship type.

Soporo
Caldari
Posted - 2008.03.30 22:39:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Soporo on 30/03/2008 23:01:45


Quote:
Meh. You can set up the mid slots of your hulk with ewar if you want. Your problem with low sec mining isn't technological, it's tactical. The tools are there for you to mine safely in low sec: map, exploration, transports, scanner, local.


Meh.
Specifically: I suppose you can mine safely, (docking/SS everytime someone comes into local which you better do, btw, now that theres the Hictor) but it sure as hell won't be profitable. Hence, no one mines there for long.

On another note, you can easily see a missing niche ship when people use existing ships for unintended work. Rokh and other BS miners for instance. Miners are too weak, ALL of them. Too few slots, too slow, not enough grid or cap...same old story.

Take a Hulk in there you say?

AAHAHAHAHAHAH
BAHAHAHAHAHAA
*gasp*
AAHAHAHAHAHAA
BAAHHAHAHAHAA

edit: Sorry for the threadnought Op.
As for Skilling....yeah, it's long enough as is just getting the basics for what you want to do. Adding more Skills just to add skills I would have to disagree with.

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2008.03.30 22:46:00 - [18]
 

Has anyone ever stopped to consider that mining purely for ISK gain may not be the intended purpose of mining? At least not for older players. I remember the days when taking in a 200,000 ISK load of ore in a Retriever constituted a significant increase in my wallet size, which is fine, but at this point can't compare at all to low sec ratting or level 4 missions. Mining is a part of the manufacturing cycle, not a source of major personal profit. I forget why I decided to make this post, although it was in response to some idea that somebody put forth somewhere in this thread. I think. It's my opinion on mining though and I stick by it.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.03.30 23:01:00 - [19]
 

To the OP:

The very fact that this game isn't 'class based' and you can tailor your role by switching ships is exactly what makes it so great. Otherwise it would be like other garbage MMOs out there like, oh, WoW for instance. Rolling Eyes

Overwhelmed
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2008.03.30 23:45:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Burnharder
Meh. You can set up the mid slots of your hulk with ewar if you want. Your problem with low sec mining isn't technological, it's tactical. The tools are there for you to mine safely in low sec: map, exploration, transports, scanner, local.


Eh, I don't mine. Just a thought... the apparent frustration with paper-thin ships though IMO seems to be crying out for more "front-line" industrial/mining ships. Would be a nice sideways path, among other things.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ambulation came with slew of tailoring skills or something either. Brewing?

Erotic Irony
0bsession
Posted - 2008.03.30 23:52:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: wamingo
This is not a request for more skills.

This is a preemptive attempt to discuss whether it's necessary to release more skills, ships and tools, so that veterans continue to have something to look forward to.
Sounds reasonable, but...

The cleft between new and old is increasing rapidly.
Does that make a good game? If the release of new skills continues, won't the gap become too big?

Truth is, it probably already has become too big. Capital ships are taking over eve and it's hurting sub 1 year old players quite badly. They probably won't get to see half as much fun as we used to have.
And what will the future bring? Won't it just get worse?
Should veterans really be able to pull away like this?
Do they really care about having so much?

Is the pinacle of EVE really indefinite skill training and the ability to fly new ships every few months, ships that makes the previous incarnations obsolete?
The sytem is akin to most mmo's leveling systems. eg WoW's level 60 to 70 expansion as the release of T3. Is that what we want? Occasional obsoletion?

Personally, I want the game to be more like a class based game where each class has its purpose and new released classes are not better than the old ones, merely different. Nor more expensive. Value tends to create expectations of power - which is no good.
The pinacle of eve should be epic battles and epic money making schemes, not an indefinite leveling system. Or what.

What do you think?
Is it time to stop expanding the skill tree? Perhaps even reducing it, or the time to skill or perhaps the value of said skills? (aka value of ships).
Is it time to stop releasing new ships and tools that reduces old ships to dust in your hangars?
Would it be wise for T3 etc, to NOT require another set of skills? Alternatively make T3 completely replace everything, start from a fresh, and have no previous skill requirements?

Please factor in your bias before you answer. This is a very competitive game and as such many players could wish for more skills simply to grant them more power. It may be a valid reason as well, but isn't it more noble to wish this game to be one of skill, rather than skillpoints?

I'm doing this now rather than when it's too late to discuss it - even though you can argue it already is. Let's get the facts straight because CCP will go in their own direction without our conscent if we don't. Perhaps they will anyway, but at least then we will know who to blame.

Discuss.


you've played eve and yet still don't understand that what you want is not realistic or relevant--as Bellum said, the corollary to an open ended skill system is a regular supply of skills

protip: the advantage of the long time player is his player connections first and his actual SP last of all

the skills will and must keep appearing, train learning, use implants and in general use your head but don't ever think your hysteria has any merit

wamingo
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2008.03.31 00:38:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: wamingo on 31/03/2008 00:38:52
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
The very fact that this game isn't 'class based' and you can tailor your role by switching ships is exactly what makes it so great.

I agree, but that's not what I meant by class based.
Basicly I meant that all ships should have purpose in battle rather than just the top tier(s).

Take the interceptor, it serves as a tackler. But the job is taken by the interdictor, whose job is eventually taken by the heavy interdictor. Maybe this is not strictly true, but it's true on many levels.
The error is that the interceptor is out of a job And that it takes a very, very long time to train for the latter ones.

The problem is that, as it is now, it's much better to field 10 battleships than 5 battleships with 5 assorted cruisers/frigates. Perhaps it makes sense in terms of cost, but then you must also realise that in all likeliness people will field 10 capital ships rather than 5 with mixed smaller ships, in the future. Hence the need for a more role based, class based, game. Caps are not supposed to be an I-win button, it's supposed to serve a role. A role amongst other types of ships. The same should apply to all ships.

I know caps are not a problem in empire, but the problem reaches through all levels. Eg frigates and cruisers are obsolete. Battleships are becoming cruisers of the past in 0.0. And training for the next tiers requires obscene amounts of time. This prompts me to ask for a resolution before it's too late.

Is the leveling-alike system that is now in place better than one where all ships have roles?
If not, we need a solution before long.

Quote:
Erotic Irony said: the skills will and must keep appearing
You read the title at least I imagine? The question lies within and asked several times following. Yet everyone so far, though perhaps you most of all, has failed to answer...
Why? Why must they keep appearing?
Also please stop assuming. Just stick to the topic. Thanks.

doctorstupid2
The Accursed
Posted - 2008.03.31 00:46:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Bellum Eternus
To the OP:

The very fact that this game isn't 'class based' and you can tailor your role by switching ships is exactly what makes it so great. Otherwise it would be like other garbage MMOs out there like, oh, WoW for instance. Rolling Eyes
werd.

doctorstupid2
The Accursed
Posted - 2008.03.31 00:48:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: wamingo
Edited by: wamingo on 31/03/2008 00:38:52
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
The very fact that this game isn't 'class based' and you can tailor your role by switching ships is exactly what makes it so great.

I agree, but that's not what I meant by class based.
Basicly I meant that all ships should have purpose in battle rather than just the top tier(s).

Take the interceptor, it serves as a tackler. But the job is taken by the interdictor, whose job is eventually taken by the heavy interdictor. Maybe this is not strictly true, but it's true on many levels.
The error is that the interceptor is out of a job And that it takes a very, very long time to train for the latter ones.
But that's just it, the interceptor isn't out of a job because they're totally *****in fun to fly.

Erotic Irony
0bsession
Posted - 2008.03.31 00:50:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Erotic Irony on 31/03/2008 00:50:52
Originally by: wamingo
Quote:
Erotic Irony said: the skills will and must keep appearing
You read the title at least I imagine? The question lies within and asked several times following. Yet everyone so far, though perhaps you most of all, has failed to answer...
Why? Why must they keep appearing?
Also please stop assuming. Just stick to the topic. Thanks.


You ask a hilariously leading question on a topic which you've made up your mind and yet have no power to change nor genuinely understand and try to elicit "discussion"?

People who post thousands of words on an eve subject are only rarely knowledgeable or insightful and instead usually rabid partisans and hysteria mongers--indeed, is there an imbalance between players, resources and understanding in EVE? yes
Does this imbalance alter the gameplay choices of some players more than others? yes
That said, is there a fundamental level of parity between long time players and new players? YES.

As I said earlier and you ignored, informal player relations will always be more important than the raw sp because in a game like EVE, in a greater degree than most other MMOS, players enable options for each other more than simply having battleship five.

wamingo
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2008.03.31 01:57:00 - [26]
 

Will answering your question lead you to answer mine?

Yes player relationships can always be more important than SP. Yet, this doesn't really have anything to do with this thread.

I lead the question because I feel the proposal is sound (and it attracts attention, heh).
Mostly this is due the fact that eve has a leveling system akin to other mmo's. Eg: frigate->cruiser->battleship.
The frigate and cruiser are obsolete in the end game. I find this sad, but mendable. There's a number of solutions. I proposed some. You no like? No problem, but at least tell me why players could not be content with a skill system that ended? Or perhaps one that is balanced in such a way that, the ship types, that do grant roles applicable to combat outside gankfests, are slightly easier to obtain? Or perhaps that all ships were given such roles?

Sarakiel
Posted - 2008.03.31 03:39:00 - [27]
 

Answering the OP I agree with you on the conservative side.

New ships requiring more skilling should not be added to the game. Character skill progression and what new toys a player can fly is the lowest form of entertainment this game has to offer and nothing should be changed until everything the current ingame mechanics have to offer has been exhausted through the progressional development of the player run environment.


Shin Wha
Gallente
University of Caille
Posted - 2008.03.31 05:12:00 - [28]
 

Then perhaps, discounting the EAF, that CCP should now start back at 1, and from their make a T3 assault frigate? Push the envelope even further with the smaller ships? Its not exactly too late. Its just that now when they create new ships, they have to realize the impact it will have later in the game. The current ships we have now will make good "starter" ships for those who are trying to reach new heights within the game.

F'nog
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.03.31 07:26:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Sarakiel
Answering the OP I agree with you on the conservative side.

New ships requiring more skilling should not be added to the game. Character skill progression and what new toys a player can fly is the lowest form of entertainment this game has to offer and nothing should be changed until everything the current ingame mechanics have to offer has been exhausted through the progressional development of the player run environment.




I don't agree with this at all. Adding new ships with higher skill reqs adds something to the game for people who have been playing even for a few months. Now they have a new goal, being able to fly that ship. They they have the goal of being able to use that ship. This can apply to any other side of the game, like Invention or whatever.

Adding nothing new stagnates the game. Eventually you run out of goals.

Most of these complaints seem to come from the fact that there's no level cap in Eve. So there's no way to know that you're equal to others in Eve. You can run in terror from a 70-mil SP character, but if those SPs are all in Science and Industry, plus Learning, you made a tactical mistake, because their skills are useless in a non-mining ship. Eve isn't most games, where the player can say "I'm Level X. He's Level Y (and Class Z)" and know everything they need to whether or not they can defeat their opponent, within a certain and fixed set of parameters.

Thus in Eve there's no way to know that you'll be a maxed character after a set amount of time and then you'll be as good as everyone else. I'm reminded of a motivation poster:

Level Caps: Because there's nothing like knowing you're the best there is at what you do, just like 100,000 others.

Or something like that. What I'm getting at is that even WoW knows that stagnation = death. There will always be a new expansion that adds more levels and makes all your stuff obsolete.

Luckily, Eve doesn't do this. The devs add skills, but a Rifter is just as good today as it was 5 years ago at launch. You can't say the same about most other MMOGs.

wamingo
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2008.03.31 13:36:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Sarakiel
The devs add skills, but a Rifter is just as good today as it was 5 years ago at launch. You can't say the same about most other MMOGs.

First, I respect your opinion that if the leveling system ended then we'd be in stagnation. But is that strictly true?

Stagnation is found already at the new player turnaround time which is ~6 months. While older players will find their goals outside of of the skilltrees, eg conquest, money making, lots of things. Isn't that what is supposed to be the "end game" of eve?
Can you really compare EVE with WoW, etc, when other games don't have conquest, etc? (or very tame versions of it)

However, you're definitely not right about the rifter. Frigates especially, but t1 ships in general, have all become more and more useless. This is purely caused by the increase in ship power through the release of new ships (usually with skill requisites that takes weeks or months to finish).

And if you fly a rifter with a 20m isk clone, you're not a bit crazy?

What if frigates were the perfect anti-drone ship, cruisers were the perfect anti-frigate ship and battleships were the anti-cruiser ship. But battleships were almost utterly incapable of taking on frigates?
Though arbitrary, this is the kind of balance that I would like to see.
An alternative is that at the very least the skilltree ends, so that there's at least a chance of being able to catch up.
Or that level requirements, for ships that do serve roles, are made easier to obtain.
Either way, there will still be some dozen years worth of skills to train, and veterans will still be statisticly superior.

Think about it.


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