open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked Why the obsession of wanting us to leave Empire ?
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9

Author Topic

Red Dutchess
Posted - 2008.03.31 22:26:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: Tusc
What the game needs is a gold rush. The California Gold Rush didn't end up making a lot of people rich, but it struck a nerve with one of the most powerful human motivators. Greed.



Really good quote and a really good post all in all. I can relate and understand it totally. There is an aspect of greed and reward to lure people to low sec and 0.0 but maybe not enough at the moment.

The original idea was for more risk, more gain I believe? Well, yes thats somewhat true but if you get ant ALT, join a major alliance and sit in safety in their space mining the rare minerals and selling them on, pass the profit to your ALT you can get a very rich carebear for almost no risk.

Sadly, there is no way around this - short of ID verifying everyone and limiting to 1 account, which is nothing more that commerical suicide.

If we look deeper into it, a L4 mission will maybe net 15m after bounties and salvage. It takes an hour to an hour and a half to do - all in. 15m per hour, isn't really that great certainly when most people only get a few hours per evening to play.

That said, rare minerals in 0.0 can fetch many times in excess of a L4 mission.

It really is almost a state of haterid towards Empire pilots because of their "easy life" and not having to look at every single person on the overview or in local. However, that is a choice that people make - safety over profit, or profit over safety and it balances and equalises.

Have any of the major alliance players recently tried a DED space complex? Or a anomoly? Or a L4 mission? I can tell you, the rewards are far far less than they used to be. A hacking expidition could net 60m, now thats more like 20m.

The scales have been tipped, massivley. However those who are not here to experience, see or acknowledge it can only go on past, outdated and incorrect information.

I would say this... Come back to Empire, for a few days and run a few missions, complexes and try some hacking - see how much it has changed. Experience that change, then tell me you can make as much here as you can in 0.0

Even if you could, if takes a *LOT* more hours in Empire than 0.0 to make the same profit, so it's an investment of time.

Tusc - Not digging at your post, it was infact insightful and informative. I'm talking on a general and broad basis, but what you say, is essentially correct. There needs to be a bigger "trigger" for people to venture out there. That said, what's to stop all the experienced people mopping it up before the newbies get there?

Humans recreate their visions in a digital world, but yet, the imperfections still filter through and surface. Nothing can, nothing will stop that because it's in each and everyone's nature.

Sarakiel
Posted - 2008.03.31 23:33:00 - [212]
 

Edited by: Sarakiel on 31/03/2008 23:41:26
Originally by: Gyvate
Sarakiel, you have mentioned the new Jumpgate a few times in your posts. One of your main points appears to be "OMG JG:E is going to slaughter Eve if things don't change to be in line with my vision."


No jumpgate evo is going to slaughter EvE because its going to appeal to what the empire playerbase really wants. The sandbox WoW in space, not the sandbox competitive play over a limited resource in space.

Jumpgate will offer a more stimulating pve system
Jumpgate will offer more easily accessible pvp
Jumpgate will offer far less cost in death
Jumpgate will offer a huge variety in visual stimulation for the adventurer

Jumpgate will offer WoW in Space with awesome graphics, Empire EvE offers ****ty WoW in space

Fact: A vast majority of empire players want WoW mechanics with a space skin. There is nothing wrong with this, its just a fact and thats why there are games coming that are going to appeal to this demographic.

Quote:

I propose for Eve, something more like Freelancer. Star systems with more content, unsafe areas, controlled areas, secret ways in and out et cetera.


You want JG:E

Quote:

Another thing to remember, is not everyone plays this or any game to be challenged overly much. YOU might play for so called higher levels of play and some king of the mountain feeling you get for beating the massive odds, but I'd lay money on the belief that most don't.


And hence why if JG:E does what they say they're going to do they're going to pull a massive amount of players from EvE who have the initiative to seek out the game that suits them best.


Quote:

You want a challenge? Go apply to NASA or join the Navy to be a SEAL. I'm playing a game for entertainment purposes - I prefer to put my massive efforts into achievements in real life. I tend to believe that we can have it both ways in Eve. Obviously, you disagree, but history has borne out what I'm saying.
-G


Again, purpose is what you delude yourself into believing is emotionally rewarding. I'm not stimulated by what groups like NASA specialise in. Physics is not my forte. I am stimulated by the leaps being made that are suggesting conscious perception has more power than we think it does, and reality may not be as real as we think it is, but i'm only interested in the surface knowledge here like most other academic fields. I've deluded myself into thinking the fields of evolutionary biology, and philosophy are emotionally rewarding enough to justify putting in the effort to learn about them but its for the stimulation I have from gaining knowledge in these subjects, I won't be seeking a career in these fields. My point about univ is the mechanics hold no interest for me so I value them only for the product I want.

The reality is EvE is behind the times in complex pve and gameplay aesthetics (Trinity was a graphics boost but it holds no weight against what most other new mmo's offer and JG:E is going to offer). They are behind the times becuase they've focused on building one thing: the player run universe. They don't want their game to appeal to those seeking a stimulating pve system, or those seeking an aesthetic adventure. They focus on maintaining a truly virtual economy that on a microcosmic scale follows many of the economic laws we see in reality that should only exists because its a product of competition over limited resources (whether those resources be solely the joy of winning or 'virtually tangible goods').

The problem is so many players are stimulated enough by simply 'winning' fights (pvp for the sake pvp) that the pvp oriented around territory control is always at risk in turning from competition over resources to competition over who can change the aesthetic value of the system by putting their sov name on it.

Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.03.31 23:42:00 - [213]
 

WE don't want to force people into lowsec/0.0.

All that people want is for people who take the risk and survive in lowsec/0.0 be rewarded for it. Lowsec/0.0 ,to be balanced, should be significantly more profitable than empire (trade notwithstanding)

Killgorde
Caldari
Soul Blade Synergy
Posted - 2008.03.31 23:53:00 - [214]
 

Originally by: Gyvate

We had legends like Rolio cruising around causing terror and panic everywhere he went. The whole game would report on his location so as to avoid him or try to engage him. Few were that brave.



Rollio (I'm sure it was 2 l's but could be wrong - its been a long time) was the first guy to frag my ass in any online game, during JG beta - as an RP pirate he had (and probably still has) no peer.

Sarakiel is obviously misinformed about JG - the original was far more PvP orientated than Eve (or at least his delusion of what Eve should be). Hang on...from what he has been saying JG Evolution is the game for him - and maybe all the others of his ilk (a small minority) who want this game tailored to suit their style of play Exclamation

The one area JG scored big-time was on joystick simulation - no game I have played has the adrenalin rush you used to get in those dogfights. As to how successful the new incarnation will be...I kinda agree with Overwhelmed - I'm not sure Scorch and the dev team at NetDevil have the capability and infrastructure to provide anything remotely close to what CCP have produced with Eve. That said, the combat will be kick-ass for those blessed with true piloting skills.

The entire argument put forward by Sarakiel is irrelevant anyway, as his char is only 10 weeks old. Unless, of course its an alt of someone who doesn't want to put his reputation where his mouth is, and would rather spout inane twaddle hiding behind an alt than make himself look stupid in the eyes of the wider population.






Overwhelmed
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2008.04.01 00:00:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Sarakiel
Fact: A vast majority of empire players want WoW mechanics with a space skin. There is nothing wrong with this, its just a fact and thats why there are games coming that are going to appeal to this demographic.



I am calling your bluff. It's 4 Aces and a Carebear. This is actually one of the few MMO's where you don't see people saying "I'm just playing this until ______ comes out." I am certainly not looking for WoW in space. In fact, I hate spaceships. I think Star Trek and Battlestar Galactica are incredibly gay but I love player-driven MMOs.

Hasak Rain
Amarr
Posted - 2008.04.01 00:32:00 - [216]
 

Originally by: Overwhelmed
Originally by: Sarakiel
Fact: A vast majority of empire players want WoW mechanics with a space skin. There is nothing wrong with this, its just a fact and thats why there are games coming that are going to appeal to this demographic.




How is this a "fact?"

You have links, graphs and a long list of quotes from Empire players to back that up right?

Maybe it is stated somewhere in the EvE quarterly Economic report? Rolling Eyes

You seem to be having trouble distinguishing between a fact and your useless and mostly ignored opinion.

Tusc
Posted - 2008.04.01 00:38:00 - [217]
 

I don't have all of the answers. In fact, all I really have are questions. But I think asking the right questions is where people should begin when designing a game.

Can you make a game where the dedicated PVE'er and the hard core PVP'er are able to coexist without being diametrically opposed to each other about the fundamental mechanics of how the game works? It's a pretty tall order, and I'm not even sure it's possible. But if it is possible, I think it has to start with human sociology at the very forefront of design decisions.Give people a reason to risk their ship...a real fun reason...a reason worth losing a ship now and then because the benefits of taking that risk are greater than the losses. Nobody wants to be fodder for a gate camp. And designing a game where most of the PVP happens at choke points and session changes needs to be seriously questioned. But if the game mechanics allow for several different kinds of really interesting FUN to be had and money to be made while taking a risk, then losing a ship wouldn't be the joy killer that it seems to be for a lot of people right now.

Hell, I understand why a lot of people don't like the pvp in this game. Most PVP is conducted at choke points and session changes, and is largely dependent on having superior numbers, but with no risk of friendly fire which could cause the superior numbers problems. Superior ships can win a numbers mismatch, but that plays more to the typical MMO condition of "Time played = character power" - which runs off a lot of PVPers who don't want to be at a statistical disadvantage for the first year or so. And it tends to attract a more PVE oriented crowd who enjoy the concept of a prolonged character progression.

So really I'm not sure anything short of a major overhaul can make things a whole lot better. But the first game that figures out how to make it all work will get my $15 a month.

Sarakiel
Posted - 2008.04.01 01:45:00 - [218]
 

Edited by: Sarakiel on 01/04/2008 02:35:11
Originally by: Overwhelmed
Originally by: Sarakiel
Fact: A vast majority of empire players want WoW mechanics with a space skin. There is nothing wrong with this, its just a fact and thats why there are games coming that are going to appeal to this demographic.



I am calling your bluff. It's 4 Aces and a Carebear. This is actually one of the few MMO's where you don't see people saying "I'm just playing this until ______ comes out." I am certainly not looking for WoW in space. In fact, I hate spaceships. I think Star Trek and Battlestar Galactica are incredibly gay but I love player-driven MMOs.


If you play this game to run missions and fight empire wars your not playing a player driven mmo. Your playing a crappy version of WoW in space. If you control markets. If you fight tactically and economically with purpose over limited resources and experience a game that evolves over time through player initiatives and strategies then your playing a player run game. Empire players aren't playing in a player run universe because theres no limited resource. They play WoW in space with a harsher death penalty. The only joy to be gained by empire pvp is the joy of taking another's hard earned work and the occasional challenging fight that involves some degree of depth in tactics. Theres nothing wrong with this being your motivator but there are and will be more games that offer this in a far better fashion. Those other games are as player run as Empire EvE is.

I got no issues with being in this game for only 2 and a half months. I've met enough of the empire playerbase ingame and through forums to realise more than half of them dont even understand the game mechanics to the degree i've already taken the initiative to do so. I've never said theres anything wrong with this, its just not what they have fun doing. I put my work in to learn what was needed to most efficiently farm out my 18 mill sp char during that time I learnt an enormous amount about the game mechanics. Since I've been immersing myself in what I can only learn through experience. I play mmo's 40+ hours a week combined with initiative and an understanding of the formulaic nature of mmo's my learning speed has been quite accelerated in this game.

Though I do have an issue with those who spew bullshhit, and the fact is the empire playerbase is loaded with way more buull****ters than the 0.0 playerbase. Its a vacuum of ignorance and fear. I'm not saying 0.0 is all that much better, but i've met way too many people in empire who think they know what their talking about when they have no idea whatsoever what this game is about, how to play this game, or anything. They know how to train skills, and they may know how to fit a ship to optimally fly in missions. Its why I wasnt playing this game 2 years ago. I played for month and a half but I lacked the maturity to find answers on my own and listened to the wrong people. My lack of initiative cost me two years of not playing this game and I have a lot to make up for :D

Hekilo Tetsatz
Amarr
Posted - 2008.04.01 02:33:00 - [219]
 

Edited by: Hekilo Tetsatz on 01/04/2008 02:37:57
18 million SP in 2 and a half months? That's impressive, not the least because it's impossible.

So, just so we're clear. Not only have you only been playing for a couple of months, but you also bought a character because you couldn't be bothered to work your way up yourself. And you expect us to take you seriously when you try to lecture about CCP's "vision" and the way the game is supposed to be?

Thank you for providing us with such entertainment.

And also, 40+ hours a week? You remember what I said about these being games and not a career? You should think on that more.

Sarakiel
Posted - 2008.04.01 02:39:00 - [220]
 

Edited by: Sarakiel on 01/04/2008 02:44:21
Edited by: Sarakiel on 01/04/2008 02:42:34
Originally by: Hekilo Tetsatz
18 million SP in 2 and a half months? That's impressive, not the least because it's impossible.

So, just so we're clear. Not only have you only been playing for a couple of months, but you also bought a character because you couldn't be bothered to work your way up yourself. And you expect us to take you seriously when you try to lecture about CCP's "vision" and the way the game is supposed to be?

Thank you for providing us with such entertainment.


Troll more plz

But for those who actually think this is a worthwhile comment its stupid. 'Waiting to skill' is not working your way up. I bought a character from my own active mining efforts. I analysed the game and realised the cost vs reward of putting in actual effort and considered that the most rational choice. I farmed out 3 billion and I got my char. I've sinced mined a lot more as I saw necessary. What did you do for your char? You pay $15 a month and stay in empire like a tool.

Overwhelmed
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2008.04.01 02:41:00 - [221]
 

Originally by: Sarakiel


If you play this game to run missions and fight empire wars your not playing a player driven mmo. Your playing a crappy version of WoW in space. If you control markets. If you fight tactically and economically with purpose over limited resources and experience a game that evolves over time through player initiatives and strategies then your playing a player run game. Empire players aren't playing in a player run universe because theres no limited resource. They play WoW in space with a harsher death penalty. The only joy to be gained by empire pvp is the joy of taking another's hard earned work and the occasional challenging fight that involves some degree of depth in tactics. Theres nothing wrong with this being your motivator but there are and will be more games that offer this in a far better fashion. Those other games are as player run as Empire EvE is.


Indeed. But your assumption falls flat in that the empire space represents those who want WoW in space. I'm in empire because I don't have the skills I want to PvP. Yes I'm aware I could join a 0.0 guild and throw some webbers and scramblers in a tackler but I just don't want to play that role. In the meantime, I am building up some capital and enjoying the missions until I abandon them almost completely. I am not alone here.

The average EVE player life is 7 months.

It takes 4 to 6 months to train the skills for competitive PvP.

Do the math.

Not even that I'm willing to debate that JG:E won't steal a substantial amount of players. I'd be willing to bet all my ISK on it. Too bad there is not way to secure that bet.

Sarakiel
Posted - 2008.04.01 02:51:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: Overwhelmed


Indeed. But your assumption falls flat in that the empire space represents those who want WoW in space. I'm in empire because I don't have the skills I want to PvP. Yes I'm aware I could join a 0.0 guild and throw some webbers and scramblers in a tackler but I just don't want to play that role. In the meantime, I am building up some capital and enjoying the missions until I abandon them almost completely. I am not alone here.


It takes 4 to 6 months to train the skills for competitive PvP.

Do the math.

Not even that I'm willing to debate that JG:E won't steal a substantial amount of players. I'd be willing to bet all my ISK on it. Too bad there is not way to secure that bet.


Overwhelmed then your not the person I'm talking about. Take yourself back from this debate. Your not the majority of empire players. I agree with you and thats why I opted to farm out the cash to buy a pvp toon, I think however the time it takes to pilot tech 2 cruisers is way out of proportion.

I will offer you this though, join a 0.0 corp anyhow. Even if you dont want to play tackler you'll be very worthwhile flying tech 1 cruisers and battleships. Your losses will be minimal especially considering the money you can make out there. Tech 2 is by no means mandatory. The only thing a combat pilot needs is the ability to rat in 0.0. After that you'll be very meaningful in a tech 1 ship. You'll get blown up more often, but hey it costs you nothing and you'll know your efforts resulted in the teams win. EvE pvp is about effective tactics through organisation as oppose to practically strictly statistics the way WoW pvp can get if you have season 3 gear players against season 1 gear.

Hekilo Tetsatz
Amarr
Posted - 2008.04.01 02:54:00 - [223]
 

Edited by: Hekilo Tetsatz on 01/04/2008 02:56:35
Edited by: Hekilo Tetsatz on 01/04/2008 02:55:49
Originally by: Sarakiel

Troll more plz



I wouldn't want to steal the thunder from your pseudo-intellectual ego stroking.

Quote:

But for those who actually think this is a worthwhile comment its stupid. 'Waiting to skill' is not working your way up. I bought a character from my own active mining efforts.


My my, you're just full of surprises, you mined 3 billion ISK in a few weeks on a noob PVP spec character?

Quote:
What did you do for your char? You paid $15 a month and waited years like a tool.


Ahh, so is this a new facet of CCP's "vision" that you have been blessed with? That their intention was always for noobs to come into the game,'farm' some ISK and buy a multi-million SP character, and then spend their time pontificating on the forums?

I hate to tell you, but I don't think CCP will be contacting you for marketing advice any time soon.

Yes, I paid my $15 a month and built my character the way I wanted him, learning the game as I went. As opposed to buying a l337 PVP char and then rushing to the forums to explain how I know more about the game than anyone else, including CCP themselves.

Quelque Chose
New Eden Roller Disco Supply
Posted - 2008.04.01 04:06:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Sarakiel
HAY GUISE I BAUHGT A CHAR I M FUGGIN WIN!!111 LOLOLOLOLOLOL


*bakes cookies for sarakiel*

Talon Aidian
Interstella Fleet
Posted - 2008.04.01 04:11:00 - [225]
 

Perhaps this has been discussed (I use that term instead of 'shouted about' to give the players posting here the benefit of the doubt, even if some don't rate it), but I thought I'd give some perspective as a relatively new player who started out in highsec, joined a lowsec corp that eventually tried to go nullsec, and is now back in highsec.

An item that I believe has not been mentioned: Highsec is the only area of space where those players who do not have an active corp to stand with can continue to play the game.

As a player who has grown utterly fed up with the childish players who just want to kill things, I have no desire to join a pirate corp (which is about 90 percent of corps in the game from what I have seen...preying on anything they can catch regardless of warstatus). Similarly, I have no interest in playing the economic dominance game, as that is not the game I enjoy (I don't hold against people who do, it's just not the game for me).

So what is left? Pretty much solo play. Try that in lowsec, and you end up dead due to gatecamp mobs or PVPs who want nothing so much as to be able to say they killed something today. Anything. Do it in nullsec.....

I can tell you I have tried twice to enter nullsec space. Both times, I was podded without any attempt at communication, and without hesitation. Why? Because the players have made spying and backstabbing so much an accepted and desired part of this game that any ship not part of the alliance holding the entry into nullsec is automatically assumed to be hostile, and destroyed without any attempt to determine if it might be a freelance player seeking employment, or just passing through. I can also give eyewitness to the fact that this has also been extended to lowsec in places.

Indeed, EVE has progressed to the point now where the players now have a 'win at any cost' mentality. Battles are about making sure the opposition -cannot- fight back, that you -cannot- lose, either by making sure you have numbers far in excess of the opposing forces, or by the twisting of game mechanics to eliminate any chance the opposition could engage in a fight (blob warfare, crashing servers, suicide SB mobs, ect). Economics are now about how much real-world money can be made by ISK farming, and mining is all about how many systems can be stripped clean by fleets of macrominer hulks.

In such an environment, where does the solo player go if not highsec? Quite simply...nowhere. And where do the corps get new players if there is no place for unattatched pilots? They won't.

As to the PVP/PVE issue, for a solo player, there is no issue. PVP is closed to them. No single player can or will fight in EVE now, as they will invariably be wolfpacked by multiple opponents anytime they try, often with ships that would outclass them singly. Add to that that the system EVE employs actually benefits the mobs by making the ambushed target the criminal if they do not wait for the ambushers to get the first shot in(regardless of secstatus...I have personal experience on this point), and you have an untenable situation for the lone player who might seek the PVP game. That just leaves PVE.

I said all that to make clear that the venom PVPers have for Carebears is unwarrented. The situation is in large part the result of the actions of the PVPers themselves, and the conduct of the players up to the present time. Those who think their actions have no consequences because 'this is a game' are now faced with the reality that they are dealing with real people, and the actions they chose to take are -still- their own actions, and have lasting effects on the world they have made.

Instead of trying to force a change in the game, maybe the players need to make a change in themselves.

Lurana Lay
Gallente
Posted - 2008.04.01 04:41:00 - [226]
 

Edited by: Lurana Lay on 01/04/2008 04:43:52
Tusc and Talon, great posts but your making a few mistakes.

Your making the wild asumption that most of the pew pew crowd here has the patience to read them, understands what your saying even if they did, and cares about anything other than adding another Ibis to a padded Killboard.

Quote:
In such an environment, where does the solo player go if not highsec? Quite simply...nowhere.


Quoted for truth. Personally I wish the EVE universe were as large today in relation to the population as it was 2 or 3 years ago. Much of the current...unhappiness on every side would be greatly mitigated I think.

Bimjo
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.04.01 07:31:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: Gyvate
I'm an old player in many senses of the word. Old toon, and old guy.
I live in Empire / HighSec
I like it there
I started this game with a whole bunch of co-workers / friends who played Jumpgate together. We were Quantar and ran the Emerald Sky corp in that game. Many of us were bored to tears with Jumpgate and waited anxiously for Eve. I was talked into joining later.
I've lived in 0.0 for long stretches. I was in VentureCorp and my company CIO was SpikeOne. Later I was in a D2 resident corp up in Branch. I saw a fair amount of PVP. My most illustrious kill was when a small improptu gang of us tried to chase down and kill the CEO of Outbreak. We got him, and I got the kill mail as the only guy in the gang with a real damage dealer. Marko had that kill in one of his videos. My 15 seconds of fame.

I enjoyed my time in 0.0 but after a while I got bored with ratting. I got tired of gate camping. I got annoyed with mining ops and complicated logistics. POS warfare and CapShips didn't really blow my skirt up either. For all of that I'd probably still be there except for the moving every few months.
If you spend any length of time in 0.0 you will do 2 things:
1. Accumlate a lot of stuff.
2. Have to move everything you couldn't broom on the market when your home gets invaded and/or you switch alliances.
1 is kinda fun. 2 isn't.

The ships are the real killer when you have to move. You must have a ratting battleship. You gotta have a fleet BS too. Maybe several. You have to have lots of cruisers and frigs all lined up and ready for PVP. You do this because it's needed but believe me, you will be reminded by your alliance leadership of this need often.

I had over 20 ships in just one station. I had 10 in another with a jumpclone in place. Now, let's move them all to NPC space when the alliance falls apart. Unfun

I've become a casual player. I miss ratting in 0.0 and some aspects of PVP. However I like being able to log on screw around and log off with no questions asked. I recently left my excellent corp, Templars of Space because I didn't do anything for them anymore. I work, I travel, and when I get online to play, it's for me. They were so cool it was amazing. I left because I felt guilty every time I saw corp chat and knew I wasn't with them anymore.

You can't be on a team and not be part of it.

So I live in Empire. I log on, and do things that don't amount to much but they are things I have fun doing. I'm trying to organize everyone in my empire home to wardec the pirate can flippers all at once. I think it would be fun. Not having much luck but the conversations are a riot.

Now at last, my point - Everything above is just to establish my credibility or lack thereof.

I don't care what anyone thinks of my play style. I play for my fun. I don't care what the devs think either (though I worry about it). I pay them for a game. They don't pay me. I don't believe I should be able to, by virtue of my account or 4, be able to get everything my way. I also don't think any other player should be able to destroy my gaming experience based on his account(s) fees.

I'll probably never join another 0.0 alliance unless I get hardcore again and return to TOS. This means I'll spend most of my time in Empire, though I'm set for some ninja ratting should I feel like it.

If HighSec gets screwed up to the point that I can't log on and have a relaxed gaming experience, I'll probably quit. All the threads in the world trying to explain why my current play style is ignorant, stupid, carebearish et cetera just make me laugh, or at worst remind me of why I don't want to play with so many of you.

Lastly, other games my be more fun for my current play style. All my old Eve buddies are playing WOW and trying to convert me. Problem is, I like spaceships and I don't like fantasy games. So I keep play Eve and having fun as best I can

excellent postCool
p.s. i haven't seen lag since i left 0.0

Sarakiel
Posted - 2008.04.01 07:45:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: Lurana Lay

Quoted for truth. Personally I wish the EVE universe were as large today in relation to the population as it was 2 or 3 years ago. Much of the current...unhappiness on every side would be greatly mitigated I think.


No it would not. I mean no offense but you dont understand the issue the 0.0 population (that does have an issue) has with empire players because you (and your not alone on this) don't understand what 0.0 play is about. Its not about pvp, its about the 'player run universe'. Low-sec is about pvp. Empire is about pvp. Everything in this game is about pvp. The difference is 0.0 has removed all restrictions on pvp to allow that form of play to develop characteristics that will never develop in empire play.

Empire pvp and low-sec pvp offer a environment controlled to some degree which offers a style of gameplay that appeals to those who 'pvp for the fun of pvp'. You can't argue your fighting over a resource. Technically in low-sec you can as you can dominate territory to effectively make use of low sec missions as a group but the level of competition over this resource has rewarded bullying tactics more than effective group pvp tactics. I'm not saying it lacks depth, it just doesnt reward large group on group pvp unless the reward is just the fun of that pvp. Essentially your pvp'ing for fun no matter which way you cut it.

Adding space to 0.0 would only hinder the game because it would give players even less reason to fight over 0.0 space (currently the only purposeful reasons are moons and room to incorporate renter corps). If you water down the value of 0.0 play you turn it into aesthetic turf wars where the only value to be had is how long does it take to get the other side to give up because they're fighting over nothing more than their name on a solar system.

The issue is the more monetarily appealing empire becomes the less people move out to 0.0 and the less competitive 0.0 play is. This game thrives on competition over limited resources.

Take my opinion for what its worth and don't delude yourself into thinking I'm telling you how to play or unwilling to accept criticism of my ideas. Look at my posts, I only attempt to rebutt those who provide criticisms worth rebutting or I feel the need to ridicule.

My opinion is composed of this: conclusions that can be made from an intellectual analysis of EvE's mechanics combined with an understanding of the formulaic nature mmo's that i've observed from 5 years of mmo experience in two major mmorpgs (AO and WoW) and dabbling in others. Once you analyse mmorpg's and familiarise yourself with their patterns its very easy to see the variations in the patterns. EvE is unique in that its the only game I see that has the ability to harness the power of every mind competing in it to enhance the game faster and with more depth than any other mmorpg out there. Every players's initiatives through creativity and effort can make a real dent in the game's progression. Its stones in a pond, but the more stones you throw, and especially the more coordinated the stone throwing is the bigger the waves.

You've found your game and you like it, the only thing I was saying is that its worth investigating other games because I think from analysing the issues a lot of empire players have with this game they'd realise their needs would be met so much more perfectly in other games. From an economic standpoint its 'probably' partially why Jumpgate Evolution and Infinity Quest for Earth are coming. The fact is I don't have a lot of experience in this game, to stroke my ego though I know I'm learning comparably very fast, but thats more so because I already have a history with mmo's and no mmo is free from the formulaic patterns. I have a long road of failure ahead but thats why I love this game.

My opinion is not enough, nor should it be, read the words of guys like DigitalCommunist. They're amazing at articulating these ideas.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.04.01 08:01:00 - [229]
 

Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 01/04/2008 08:02:56
Sarakiel: My billion years of MMO wisdom have taught me that people, with better insight to purpose of the game than the games developers and with tendency to throwing insults around like it was a joke, sooner or later will get banned from the forums. DigitalCommunist can explain you more about that.

Sarakiel
Posted - 2008.04.01 08:05:00 - [230]
 

Just noticed Hekilo's post and I thought I'd toss this out there as well for those unaware of the money to be had in 0.0.

A retriever can mine at 15 million an hour on crokite/arkonor/bistot which one jump away from the stations in Destiny and Ka-tet alliance are in massive abundance.

I however did not mine at that rate, I had the fortune of having a main that I started 2 years ago played for a month and due to my own lack of initiative failed to learn about the game for myself and was misguided by others offering what I now know to be not uncommon severe ignorance. I know this not to be uncommon because of the posts i've observed by so many empire players on these forums and while some are trolls the sad fact is many people have not spent any time to learn the game beyond what they were initially introduced to, missioning or mining and instead ignorance has spread like wildfire throughout the population by those who with experience even more limited than my own who have been playing this game far too long to still be entertained doing the same thing they did the first two weeks they were playing. I had the fortune of having this character to tank rats while I mined with a buddy's hulk miner at 45 million an hour and hauled with Sarakiel. Nonetheless I will admit if I had been faced with the option of only mining at 15 million an hour with Sarakiel in a retriever as this is my mining toon I would have still opted to do so as that would only translate into a 120 hour practically afk'able grind, not much considering most mmo's ask a very active grind totalling 240 to sometimes 1000+ hour grind.

Sarakiel
Posted - 2008.04.01 08:10:00 - [231]
 

Edited by: Sarakiel on 01/04/2008 08:20:01
Originally by: Jowen Datloran
Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 01/04/2008 08:02:56
Sarakiel: My billion years of MMO wisdom have taught me that people, with better insight to purpose of the game than the games developers and with tendency to throwing insults around like it was a joke, sooner or later will get banned from the forums. DigitalCommunist can explain you more about that.


I'm rather okay with that as it fits with my reasons for posting with my different characters anyhow. I prefer Sarakiel to be a persona that uses rational insults that point out weaknesses in others to stimulate debate and hopefully gain a more well thought out criticism of value.

I prefer the only other toon i post with to maintain a different tone that is fitting more with my true person which is one who does believe you get more with sugar than salt or whatever the hell that phrase is (personally I've also had issue with this phrase if it is indeed salt because salt offers a far greater utilitarian purpose than sugar does but frankly I think this is adopting the behaviour of characters like Dwight from The Office a tad too much). I never tolerate bs from people, but I won't unecessarily try to incite responses from others but maintain debates less muddled with unecessary personal attacks on both ends. If you really do decide to put in the effort to find out all my chars go ahead, i'd only be entertained that someone cared enough, frankly I think most people will forget this alias by the time I return to using him again.

As far as whether I've accurately analysed the developer's dream of the game why dont you take the time to read their literature and the majority of the interviews they provide and come back and debate my points. If you don't care to I've still provided enough points that if you are playing this game with any thought should be able to be rebutted if they are indeed wrong.

I'll toss out another thought, theres a reason why they're not asking players to pay for expansion packs when they very well could and not lose any significant amount of playerbase. The vast majority of mmorpgs do not lose playerbase by charging for major content updates. They hook people, and EvE is just as guilty of providing an addictive game that people will more than happily pay for new features being implemented. Another thought, theres a reason why the missioning system doesnt offer a stimulating AI at all. But hey, I could talk about this in way more depth but I already have and you seemed not to care to rebut me on any point. The reality is your an empire player and empire players lack the initiative to seek games that suit them. I shouldnt think you have the initiative to actually care to use forums for their purpose, discussion. Empire players tolerate mediocrity on a level even more pathetic than those of us who tolerate mediocrity in rl.

You accept less when you could have more by either finding the game you really want, or playing EvE for the value it actually offers. Instead you play an inferior WoW in Space.

Red Dutchess
Posted - 2008.04.01 08:17:00 - [232]
 

Empire pilots and null sec pilots it seems are never going to see eye to eye, and maybe they're not supposed to.

After all, each to their own.

However, you don't see me smacking and yelling "carebear noobs" or "null sec w*ankers" because I respect both people's viewpoints. Of course it frustrates me that people cannot recognise different play styles, and that some have less free RL time than others.

Some people like PVP, some people like mining, some like piracy, some like trading, some like research.

The point is, whilst these two sides (Empire/null sec) will never see eye to eye or agree with each other, they do actually need one another. It's an oxymoron and a balance that is maintained.

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.04.01 08:55:00 - [233]
 

Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 01/04/2008 08:55:55
I do not dismiss any of your points as I mostly agree to them, a game being about competition and all.

I am maybe not your typical empire though, as I spend/have spend most of my time in low sec and even null sec operating on my own (you are not the only one with multiple characters). I have simply not had the time to dedicate my self to any alliance, because in the life span of EVE I have gone from being a graduate student to have an astonishing career and love life that most people will never experience. I can assure you that neither of those came from mediocrity.

So apparently I have no need to play EVE as my in game achievements never can compete with my real life achievements. But i still do play. Not for competition sake (as what I do matters little to others), but for the same reasons I do Sudokus: challenge and fun for my own sake. I have really tried hard to find another MMO that could provide the same, but no luck so far. I have found the reason to be what I consider the most important aspect of EVE: diversity.

I have to stop posting now, but to finish: I have no problems with how low sec used to be and is now.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.04.01 09:11:00 - [234]
 

Originally by: Overwhelmed
Originally by: Sarakiel


If you play this game to run missions and fight empire wars your not playing a player driven mmo. Your playing a crappy version of WoW in space. If you control markets. If you fight tactically and economically with purpose over limited resources and experience a game that evolves over time through player initiatives and strategies then your playing a player run game. Empire players aren't playing in a player run universe because theres no limited resource. They play WoW in space with a harsher death penalty. The only joy to be gained by empire pvp is the joy of taking another's hard earned work and the occasional challenging fight that involves some degree of depth in tactics. Theres nothing wrong with this being your motivator but there are and will be more games that offer this in a far better fashion. Those other games are as player run as Empire EvE is.


Indeed. But your assumption falls flat in that the empire space represents those who want WoW in space. I'm in empire because I don't have the skills I want to PvP. Yes I'm aware I could join a 0.0 guild and throw some webbers and scramblers in a tackler but I just don't want to play that role. In the meantime, I am building up some capital and enjoying the missions until I abandon them almost completely. I am not alone here.

The average EVE player life is 7 months.

It takes 4 to 6 months to train the skills for competitive PvP.

Do the math.

Not even that I'm willing to debate that JG:E won't steal a substantial amount of players. I'd be willing to bet all my ISK on it. Too bad there is not way to secure that bet.


Statistics lay many traps for the foolish and unwary.

If 3 people start playing EvE, and one lasts a month, the second lasts 3 months and the third lasts for 17 months, then the average time of play is 7 months.

As there are rather a lot of people who have been playing for more than 7 months, there must be many more who play for less for that average to hold true. In other words, while 7 months may be average, it is not necessarily typical. 1 or 3 months is probably the most common 'lifespan' - people who subscribe, realise that EvE is not for them, or that they don't have time, or whatever, and then quit.

And to turn your conclusion about PvP training time around (I disagree with it btw, but let that pass) - one could equally argue that those who stayed for longer than 7 months were those who trained for PvP.

Thenoran
Caldari
Tranquility Industries
Posted - 2008.04.01 09:32:00 - [235]
 

Been to 0.0, got my mining Rokh there, got boring.
I want to do more then just mine Dark Ochre or be forced into losing my ships for some alliance when I barely have any PvP skills.

Also...you can mine in 0.0 with a Retriever? Shocked

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.04.01 09:34:00 - [236]
 

Excuse me, it's carebears who post 'fix/change/etc low-sec' all the time.


Darwin Duck
Evil Monkey Asylum
Wile E Coyote's
Posted - 2008.04.01 10:24:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: Captain BlueBeard
I read most of the posts in this thread,, and some talked about the Eve Developers desire to get more people into PvP and out into 0.0

At one time, a long time ago, Eve came as close as it ever has, and ever will, to this dream. The eve players created ASCN. It was a 0.0 alliance that was designed to open up 0.0 to the masses. Funny thing is, it worked. It worked very well. Players went out in droves. It worked Too well.

For those that do not remember the history, ASCN was crushed. It was crushed because it was large and a challenge for the most powerful alliance at the time. (turned out, not so much of a challenge). Sure there were 'politics' involved. But to crush ASCN was to close a possible chapter of Eve history forever. The chapter where the population shifts from empire to 0.0

Here is my point. The devs let this crushing take place. The closest they have ever been to their 'dream' was wiped out.

What does this tell you?

Quite simple really,, it was NEVER their dream.

So, forget what you have been hearing about the Devs wanting more out in 0.0. It is simply not true.


Acctually they do want more people go out into 0.0, but not because it's the correct way to play the game as some claim,it's to spread the players out more and to reduce lag.
But you have a point, the people *****ing about people staying in high sec do whatever they can to stop people from getting to 0.0. When a fairly new player decide to move out to 0.0, but is gatecamped on his 3 1st tries to jump out there most go "F it, I'm staying in empire".
Gatecamping is the primary reason most people don't want to go out into 0.0, because they feel they can't get there.

And to all those saying those you stay in empire play the game wrong and not as intended, HAH, if this was the case empire wouldn't even be there.
The amount of players trying to control other peoples playstyle is amazing. "don't ***** on the forums, adapt or leave they say", but they ***** just as much when their grief tools are nerf. Oh well, lot's of people are blind on one eye!

Darwin Duck
Evil Monkey Asylum
Wile E Coyote's
Posted - 2008.04.01 10:36:00 - [238]
 

Originally by: Overwhelmed
Originally by: Sarakiel
Fact: A vast majority of empire players want WoW mechanics with a space skin. There is nothing wrong with this, its just a fact and thats why there are games coming that are going to appeal to this demographic.



I am calling your bluff. It's 4 Aces and a Carebear. This is actually one of the few MMO's where you don't see people saying "I'm just playing this until ______ comes out." I am certainly not looking for WoW in space. In fact, I hate spaceships. I think Star Trek and Battlestar Galactica are incredibly gay but I love player-driven MMOs.


Ok, I'll help you out then. I'm only playing this game until Bioware release their MMO in 2009. Bioware is in my opinion the best game devs and they have lot's of the original Star Wars galaxies devs + KOTOR devs in their Austin MMO studio. The original SWG was awesome so was Kotor.
They have 9 professional writers that isn't really gamedevs to write the story of the MMO and they say you have to really talk to quest givers and the same quests will be different depending on you're answers when you talk to the quest giver.
However if it turns out to be another WOW clone I'll be right back here, but I don't think it will be.

Creh Ester
Posted - 2008.04.05 11:28:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Darwin Duck
Ok, I'll help you out then. I'm only playing this game until Bioware release their MMO in 2009.


Biowares games are good. Good in the sense of quality and providing an, in some regards, satifying experience.
They are also highly linear. One thing Bioware abhors is the sandbox paradigm.
So it will be interesting to see what Bioware intends to in MMO.

The game I have most desired in my mind is something more in line with what Sarakiel is trying to justify. EVE isn't quite that. Everything is flawed. Only people obsessed, or in love - to use kinder words, fail to see flaws.

All areas in EVE are sandbox and "player run" to use Sarakiels words. He just fails to see it. But different mechanics are in place which, for one thing, makes 0.0 the only place where you can successfully impose player consequences.
Further, resources are both "unlimited" and "limited" in all three zones. And there is player competition for them. There is no difference in that aspect.

Personally I have to question that the practical limitations on highsec and lowsec space were originally intended by CCP, since useless fossil remnants like bounty, sec rating 0.1-0.4 and 0.5-0.9, and even wardecs (though that is not yet a fossil) suggests there was once different ideas. But Sarakiels rants about what EVE and 0.0 is about are mostly myoptic, tunnel vision, inexperienced early raving.

This thread is not about game design. It is about immature, inexperienced, infatuated players, fools enough to waste +40h/week on a grinding game, trying to make this game more to their liking by forcing others to play it more to their liking.

Sarakiel is relying on game design to argue how this game should be played. - How foolish! Games are played according to their mechanics. Want more 0.0 players? - change what 0.0 offers, not the players. That be different thread.

And yes I'd want a different game. But absolutely not the 0.0 game as it is today. And I have spent a lot more time in 0.0 than Sarakiel have even played this game. Heck I've even spent more time in lowsec! And I have prob done a lot more things in 0.0 as well. Only thing I haven't experienced are the big plexes. I also deeply resent being lectured on this game or games at all by a puny 18mil SP, ex-WoW player, full of decades old rpg dogma, who even bought those paltry SPs.

But I'd say this for Sarakiel: I also think everybody should at some time have a go at trying the 0.0 zone. You kinda owe it to yourself to explore that part of the game. Earnings are much better for one thing. And teamplay is bigger.

13-14y old pies want you in lowsec (everytime I say lowsec I mean 0.1-0.4) as victims. But 0.0 players want you in 0.0 because they really want you there. What you cannot do is just go there. 0.0 is policed by the alliances and as a neut you will simply be unceremoniously hunted and podded. What you must do is enlist in a 0.0 corp and alliance. You will then get instructions on how to get there safely. Leave most of your belongings in Empire for a start. It's often easier to acquire new in 0.0 than transporting them and you keep your old game as a fallback.

You need that fallback because while I think you should try 0.0 I also think it sucks as it is today. (Mind you I'm critical of most EVE and today only play it sparingly, with an eye to where it's going).

The "competition" that Sarakiel so hypes and according to him is supposed to be fun has as it's main element gravel shoveling. 'Grinding' for another word. Even a personal gravel shoveling competition is bad enough. When it becomes a team gravel shoveling competition it gets a lot worse. Because there is a collective need and pressure. While 100 men shoveling gravel for 4 hours each are equal to 25 men * 16 hours, the big problem is that 25m * 17h beats that, and 100m * 5 hours beats that. And so on. Where is the bar?
Nope, it's a crap game implementation and a crap excuse for wasting your life.

Puscas Marin
Gallente
Posted - 2008.04.05 11:46:00 - [240]
 

i go to 0.0 if get free ships
i donut wanna spend hours to get a bs fitted and after that get kiled by a blob/DD
00 fail to seduce ppl in 00, lets say U(0.0) fail to recruit fresh meat


Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only