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kan han
Gallente
Posted - 2008.03.27 05:13:00 - [1]
 

Dear Users of EVE.

My Idea is for all Users not posting BUGs, error descriptions or problems they are accounting any longer. My personal experience is that it does not make any differences if you post them or not. And the reports and moods from many other players documented in this Forum show the same.

So save yourself a lot if time and anger. Your problem will not be fixed any faster. The problems you encounter with EVE are your sole problems - keep them for you.

Infact, I think it will help a lot if EVE will not get any more feedback from it's userbase. Maybe this will move something on here. Join the community. Do not post your problems any longer! Just play or quit playing if you can't. Keep it simple, stupid.

Say them you want your money back if the product you licensed does not deliver what it should. That simple it is.

Kan Han.

Gangus
Minmatar
Matari BackBone
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2008.03.27 05:27:00 - [2]
 

Kan. I dub thee Sir Kan, Knight of the order of the Mental Home. I tend to believe from your rant that you saw something that was buggy, and it wasn't fixed straight away. there is a solution to your problem, and it doesn't involve WoW or Hello Kitty Online. I'm not suggesting those, because i believe even those places don't deserve a knob like you. Get a copy of Elite, it will allow you to play spaceships, and with the same amount of people that like you. None.

How do you expect bugs to be known about if they aren't reported? Do youthink they will magically fix themselves?

If you report your bugs in a polite fashion, providing as much information in a logical, dispassionate manner, they will take the time to look at and attempt to correct the problem, but if you simply rant and scream "LET'S MAKE THEIR JOB HARDER BY BEING STUPID!!!11oneoneoneeleventyone" then you're never going to get any help, and deservedly so.

To the rest of the sane members of the EVE community, PLEASE send in well thought out bugreports, they do all get looked at, and ccp have far more at stake than you in making sure you have a good gaming experience. They DO want you to enjoy your game, but they are human, therefore they DO make mistakes.

If you don't think EVE is worth your money, then the solution is simple. Stop paying, Don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out, and contract your stuff to me.

Gangus
Matari BackBone

Enkilil
Minmatar
Thirteen Ninety Three
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:28:00 - [3]
 

Kan,

As much as I can appreciate your angst and understand how frustrating it is bug reporting / petitioning, etc... Please understand it's the only real tangible method the client has for telling CCP what's wrong with the design and operation of the game. Nobody can know this as well as myself, and a lot of people here can attest to my shortness and downright abrasiveness when dealing with CCP. With that established, knowing that there is a problem, what caused the issue, and the client-side setup is imperative to diagnosing and fixing it. Without that, the devs won't have much to go on...

Being angry is every Eve Players inalienable right! How long have we been asking for a workaround for constant crashing / lockups, How long have people been forced to deal with the LAGMONSTER? How long did it take CCP to fix the PG problems with the poor Deimos? How long did the Amarr suffer the undermining of nearly every ship in their armada? How long have people been asking for features to be fixed that are projects that have yet to be done? Asking for Skill-Training queues, fixing Jita, the god damned exclaimation point for an avatar, etc....

It is surely a lot to deal with if it all directly effects you, but if you love the game and are willing to accept that the game will be fixed when it's fixed (hey, just like IRL, huh?) it makes it all go down a lot easier. While the devs and support team may not be living up to your expectations, I can assure you they are giving it 150% full throttle at all times just to keep up. Don't insult the job they do by asking people to legitimately undermine their hard work. I'm not particularly happy with any of the petitions or bug reports I've submitted either, but those are the breaks, and you're going to take some losses in this game.

The bitter "that will teach them" attitude isn't going to work here. You're going to be hard pressed to find anyone here who will support you, and to be quite honest: you're easily replaced.

Kaaze Meriivaas
Posted - 2008.03.27 08:03:00 - [4]
 

I'm with Kan. I'll run the log server and report bugs and all that crap when they start paying me to do so. Hell, I'd even take a free subscription until all the really egregious bugs are hammered out.

I just do not understand what they're doing with all of the programmers they have, unless the median programmer age is like 21, in which case they're hiring the cheapest, most inexperience guys they can find, and the problems are liable to get worse because any code "landslide" plus inexperience generally equals omg noe. And with mystically recurring bugs, bugs reported on test weeks before release making it INTO release, and just (let's face it) really amateurish, pathetic incidents like the boot.ini debacle, a code landslide is about what we're looking at.

I'm not hating on the young programmers, they've got to learn somewhere, I just prefer it wasn't on a game I'm paying to "play." Paying customers should not be expected to file Q/A bug reports for bog standard service.

The fanbois can save the bits and bytes and skip replying kthx bai.

nomis ekoobmah
Minmatar
Republic University
Posted - 2008.03.27 10:16:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Kaaze Meriivaas
I'm with Kan. I'll run the log server and report bugs and all that crap when they start paying me to do so. Hell, I'd even take a free subscription until all the really egregious bugs are hammered out.


Unless you do run the logserver and report bugs, they will not get fixed. Simple really.Smile

I've been a software engineer for 20 years now and believe me, it's impossible to write software that is 100% bug free. You can test the hell out of it but you will never be able to test for every eventuality which is where the users come in.

They file a bug report and I fix it, if they didn't then I wouldn't know there was a problem.

Alex Redwidth
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.03.27 13:13:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: nomis ekoobmah
Unless you do run the logserver and report bugs, they will not get fixed. Simple really.Smile


But that comes from the ludicrous assumption that running them and reporting bugs means they DO get fixed.

Go count up how many 'help my portrait is a !' threads there are. Yeah, they're all over those reported bugs.

I don't think anyone minds users doing bug testing when we're finding the mysterious 'works on my machine' bugs that crop up, but we're finding obvious bugs that should have been caught by QA, such as the overview (moving on fleet join and just generally re-arranging).

THAT is what I think folks like Kan are having an issue with, when it begins to look like NO testing is done on CCP's end and they rely on userbase that is PAYING for the privilage.

kan han
Gallente
Posted - 2008.03.27 15:27:00 - [7]
 

I'm not talking about users do not understand how to use the software. I'm talking about posting actual bugs that do reduce the game playing experience.

That's not having a ! as an image as well not as being disconnected from time to time because your dialup reconnects.

My suggestion is just not to really post bugs any longer sothat CCP must pay more attention by finding them on their own. The last "Fix" was a debacle for many players. I do not take my own problems I got ingame too serious. Yes it is true that I'm very disappointed in terms of customer support CCP has to offer. But this thread is about the suggestion to not report bugs any longer sothat CCP can concentrate on their own timeline not being interrupted and stressed by their players any longer.

I bet - maybe not my own problem - but the most things in general will get faster fixed if the overall userbase does not report any bugs and problems any longer. No Petitions, No Bugreports, No Forum posts.

K'uata Sayus
Posted - 2008.03.27 20:46:00 - [8]
 

Stuff like this really bugs me....

Intravenous deMilo
Posted - 2008.03.27 22:27:00 - [9]
 

Hey CCP. These issues are well documented. FIX THE ****. That's your damn job. Was that clear enough for you?Rolling Eyes Rollback the "Boost"!

Athre
Minmatar
The Higher Standard
Posted - 2008.03.27 22:50:00 - [10]
 

Regarding log server files... does anyone have a list of bug hunters to be able to submit files larger than 2 MB?

Kaaze Meriivaas
Posted - 2008.03.28 04:03:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: nomis ekoobmah
Unless you do run the logserver and report bugs, they will not get fixed. Simple really.Smile


What's "simple, really" is that as soon as another omg spaceships pew pew game comes out, CCP's user base becomes exclusively Chinese and ice fields disappear inside of a week. And then no one buys the isk, and then it's lights out in Reykjavik.

And so many of these bugs--and I mean really, look at any patch, ANY patch--are found in testing and reported in testing and then make it to live anyway that the programmers simply aren't ... competent. Or ... I don't know, I'm honestly at a loss for words.

And when a bug is fixed, it often crops up again in a later release, which, if you're really a programmer you realize, means they've lost version control or simply have really poor methodologies in place, and when I take a step back and look at the systemic bugs I really sort of wonder when it's all going to implode.

Besides, the last time I tried to run the log server, guess what? It crashed.

Logging on today and seeing "the overview is considered an exploit" was a major "omg lolz" moment. No other software title that's been "gold" for ... what, four years? five! has these kind of bugs.

Legions of fanbois will disagree, but "stfu lol ccp rox" doesn't negate the simple fact that main aspects of this game and the service I pay for simply don't function as promised or intended, and I'm expected now to roll up my sleeves and lend a helping hand with the workload? And I don't need the additional system load, since "need for speed" and "boost" have made running the game in the manner I'm accustomed to that much more machine-intensive.

I gave at the office. They've got my money, I'd just like to have a game that works.

Strak Yogorn
Amarr
Mind Warpers
Posted - 2008.03.28 06:01:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Kaaze Meriivaas


Logging on today and seeing "the overview is considered an exploit" was a major "omg lolz" moment. No other software title that's been "gold" for ... what, four years? five! has these kind of bugs.




to be fair, that's not really what it said, you might want to read it again.

Ajunta Pal
Caldari
Innovia
Innovia Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.28 08:57:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Kaaze Meriivaas
Originally by: nomis ekoobmah
Unless you do run the logserver and report bugs, they will not get fixed. Simple really.Smile


What's "simple, really" is that as soon as another omg spaceships pew pew game comes out, CCP's user base becomes exclusively Chinese and ice fields disappear inside of a week. And then no one buys the isk, and then it's lights out in Reykjavik.

And so many of these bugs--and I mean really, look at any patch, ANY patch--are found in testing and reported in testing and then make it to live anyway that the programmers simply aren't ... competent. Or ... I don't know, I'm honestly at a loss for words.

And when a bug is fixed, it often crops up again in a later release, which, if you're really a programmer you realize, means they've lost version control or simply have really poor methodologies in place, and when I take a step back and look at the systemic bugs I really sort of wonder when it's all going to implode.

Besides, the last time I tried to run the log server, guess what? It crashed.

Logging on today and seeing "the overview is considered an exploit" was a major "omg lolz" moment. No other software title that's been "gold" for ... what, four years? five! has these kind of bugs.

Legions of fanbois will disagree, but "stfu lol ccp rox" doesn't negate the simple fact that main aspects of this game and the service I pay for simply don't function as promised or intended, and I'm expected now to roll up my sleeves and lend a helping hand with the workload? And I don't need the additional system load, since "need for speed" and "boost" have made running the game in the manner I'm accustomed to that much more machine-intensive.

I gave at the office. They've got my money, I'd just like to have a game that works.


i agree with your first 4 paragraphcs, and the first part of the 5th, but i can name two games off the top of my head that have been out 4+ years with "these kinds of bugs"...look at any other MMO; WoW and Everquest come to mind...god do those have lots of bugs, any MMO should be expected to have bugs and lots of them, they are "evolving" games and each patch that releases new content is going to create more (also dont forget that trinity/revelations/etc should be considered expansions..though free ones)...remember they dont have your exact machine (granted some of them should be caught anyways), also remember that not everyone is having problems

i also agree with the 6th and 7th paragraphs, but would like to note that the ONLY problem i've had since the 1.1 patch is that the "select item" and "drone overview" windows realign with the main overview window every time I leave a station or jump...no biggie for me really

Alex Redwidth
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.03.28 14:52:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Kaaze MeriivaasAnd when a bug is fixed, it often crops up again in a later release, which, if you're really a programmer you realize, means they've lost version control or simply have really poor methodologies in place.[/quote


'if you're really a programmer' you realize it has nothing to do with version control. Code affects other code, and often the programmer isn't aware or just forgets.

What it does show is something is seriously wrong in testing that previous bugs aren't being tested. That's just really sloppy.

Alex Redwidth
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.03.28 15:09:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Ajunta Pal
but i can name two games off the top of my head that have been out 4+ years with "these kinds of bugs"...look at any other MMO; WoW and Everquest come to mind...god do those have lots of bugs, any MMO should be expected to have bugs and lots of them


Odd, 'cause I don't remember anywhere near this level of bugs in WoW. The overview messing up everytime you undock, cans not showing items in them...

Then we've got the extended downtime issues. With one 'realm' thats a much bigger problem than over at other MMORPGs, I also remember getting extra game time for extended downtimes.

Nobody is claiming there shouldn't be ANY bugs, the problem here is the complete mismanagement both of users who report bugs, how the bugs are handled, the seeming falling quality of released builds and CCP's apparent lack of desire to learn from past mistakes and change the situation.

Turpis Vita
Posted - 2008.03.28 18:48:00 - [16]
 

Yes, don't bother posting about your bugs here.

Because there's an actual bug reporting tool under the confusingly named link, "bug reporting".

OP is absolutely right, the actual programmers and developers who fix the bugs don't give the toss about these forums. Why would they? They've given the tool to report bugs to the playerbase, and anyone too dim not to be able to use the tool is not worth listening to.

So yes, stop posting about them already, and actually do something constructive. Sheesh.

Kaaze Meriivaas
Posted - 2008.03.29 04:46:00 - [17]
 

Anyone else starting to get the sneaking suspicion that many of the "you people are too stupid to play this AWESOME GAME" posts are made by dev alts or ccp employees?

... I mean, no one can seriously be content with the "level of service" and the "quality of goods" as it stands now, right?

Ajunta Pal
Caldari
Innovia
Innovia Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.29 11:24:00 - [18]
 

i do know what you mean, but its hard for me to be discontent when i dont have problems, i realize other do, and if it was something i could help fix i definatly would

what i do recommend people do is submit the bug reports, with most of the bugs talking about them here wont do an good i agree, but if the reports aren't submited then ccp is going to think that one of thier attempts to fix the bug has worked when what really happened is people just stopped letting them know it was there

note: as far as the devs are concerned i wouldn't be suprised if some of them do do that, but i also wouldn't be supprised if most of them never even visit the forums (seeing as how the forums is NOT where we are supposed to submit bugs at *grin*)

Zakgram
POW ZAP THWAPP
Posted - 2008.03.29 11:32:00 - [19]
 

Pretty much all the bugs I've logged get a "We already know about it" response. And then a new patch comes. And again...

Viglen
Gallente
Taurus Inc
Posted - 2008.03.29 12:21:00 - [20]
 

There are many good reasons for submitting a bug report, I'll try and list them here:

1. You might have built your own computer, that makes your computer unique in many ways. It has a hardware combination that might not be tested and one of your components might be causing issues that need fixing.

2. Drivers, OS patches in combination with your harware,,,, I could go on!

Bug reports are the most powerful tool CCP has to fix issues that can only apear when TQ is stressed (Not simulated)

My experience with QA is quite extensive and I worked with them for a long time as a bughunter, from Alpha6 to a couble off months after TQ went live.

The best advice I can give you ppl with issues, is to file a bug report that is worth looking at, anybody can submit a bug report saying what just happend and please fix it,,,,

That will not trigger any responce or fix, period!

What needs to be done is this:

Try to recreate the bug, if you can do that over and over, then you have something usefull.
Type down how to recreate the bug and be specific!
Those of you that don't feel like doing it, to bad, just keep on waiting for that fix and stay here on these forums!

DirectX, run it and save a report to post with your bug report, another big help is to use a 3'rd party program such as Sisoft Sandra

this may help the devs dig for information needed to find what it is in your computer that is making issues, and add it to a patch. they might even see that if u disable or change sertain setting that your problem will be fixed.

The error that you may be getting, may well be reported a number of times, but your specific error may contain the code that cracks the puzzle!!!!

So please for the love of EVE and everything and everyone in it, submit your bugreports and we may all be benefitting from your report!!!!!!

Madbrick
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2008.03.29 16:03:00 - [21]
 

How do you expect bugs to get fixed? ROFL

Viglen
Gallente
Taurus Inc
Posted - 2008.03.29 16:14:00 - [22]
 

By removing the problem!

be it a certain setting or a code in a programWink

Turpis Vita
Posted - 2008.03.30 10:16:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Kaaze Meriivaas
Anyone else starting to get the sneaking suspicion that many of the "you people are too stupid to play this AWESOME GAME" posts are made by dev alts or ccp employees?


Sorry, no points. I'm not an employee (btw, Devs are CCP employees too, so basicly you said "are made by CCP employees or CCP employees"). I'm in fact suffering from both the "whitespace" bug and a bug where my computer crashes most of the time when trying to open two clients, unless I time the login sequence just right. But instead of crying about them (well, much) on the forums, I made an actual bug report.

And no, I'm not content with the level of service or quality of goods at the moment, but whining about it on the forums accomplishes a lot less than writing bug reports.

Alex Redwidth
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.03.30 13:50:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Viglen
There are many good reasons for submitting a bug report, I'll try and list them here:


You're talking about instances where 'you' are the only one getting the bug, but there are countless instances where we're all getting the same bug.

The overview bug is mentioned again and again as an example of the problems with QA/Testing. How could they NOT spot that one.

Then it comes down to 'faith', how can we as users have faith when we file a bug report that CCP are going to dig through the various specific hardware and specific drivers you have to chase down a specific bug, when even the global ones that aren't affected by such specific environments are completely ignored or are missed and slip through?

Valeri Greon
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
Posted - 2008.03.31 01:12:00 - [25]
 

Is it a bug if I don't suffer from the overview bug? Well - not since I completed the tutorial missions, anyway.

The way I see it is that if bugs are not reported, it falls to the players in CCP dev team to spot them -- and as I believe that few of them have time to play the 'stable' build, they would miss many bugs indeed. So they need the reports to know that there is something to fix. As stated in previous posts.

Another thing is that even two 'standard' ready-bought computers are different from the second two different people start to use them. One patches the drivers and the OS, the other doesn't. And so on... So they need many times many bug reports with as much information in them as possible to track down the causes and to find solutions.

Bambi
Existentialist Collective
Posted - 2008.03.31 13:22:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Alex Redwidth

The overview bug is mentioned again and again as an example of the problems with QA/Testing. How could they NOT spot that one.



I dont have an overview bug so therefore nobody does.
Its easy to miss glitches that dont show up.......

Alex Redwidth
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.03.31 14:22:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Valeri Greon
and as I believe that few of them have time to play the 'stable' build, they would miss many bugs indeed. So they need the reports to know that there is something to fix.


So you're saying there's nothing wrong with the expectation that we should not only pay their wages, but do their work for them too?

...

Words fail me.




Roku Kotaki
Kotaki Enterprises
Posted - 2008.03.31 16:55:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Alex Redwidth
Originally by: Valeri Greon
and as I believe that few of them have time to play the 'stable' build, they would miss many bugs indeed. So they need the reports to know that there is something to fix.


So you're saying there's nothing wrong with the expectation that we should not only pay their wages, but do their work for them too?

...

Words fail me.



I have been building custom PC's and playing PC games for well over a decade. Every game I have played on a PC has had bugs that were missed by the devs and then fixed because players submitted bug reports (excluding a few horrible titles that are far worse than EVE and not worth mentioning). Without player bug reports, this industry would have most likely fallen apart around the mid '90s, because no piece of software is bug free!

There is absolutely nothing wrong with volunteering your time to help make good software, excellent, by reporting things to the dev team that they most likely missed. Or, they are having a horrible time reproducing the bug so that it can be fixed. For better or worse, this industry relies on it's user base to help them out. Without the players letting them know something is wrong, they most likely won't know. The programmers don't play the game day in/out, they write code. A QA department is probably given only a short timeframe for playing, and they don't always find problems.

You're not doing their work for them. That's utter nonsense! You're reporting something that doesn't work right, not fixing it for them! We report it, they try to fix it, so we can hopefully continue to enjoy what they created.

Kaaze Meriivaas
Posted - 2008.03.31 18:18:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Roku Kotaki
Without player bug reports, this industry would have most likely fallen apart around the mid '90s, because no piece of software is bug free!


Fail claim is fail. In other words, you've completely lost any credibility with such a ridiculous statement, and have exposed yourself as a total muppet incapable of critical thinking.

Quote:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with volunteering your time to help make good software, excellent, by reporting things to the dev team that they most likely missed. Or, they are having a horrible time reproducing the bug so that it can be fixed.


If I want to volunteer, I'll pop round the local Red Cross or feed the homeless or something along those lines. Fact is, I'm a selfish bastard and I don't want to volunteer, and what's more is I expect a reasonable exchange of money for goods and services to be reasonable. Not only are these bugs unreasonable and ridiculous--beta busted, as a friend described them--the lack of communication from anyone in a position to let us know when we can expect these bugs to be fixed is just incredibly poor customer service. Maybe I'd feel differently if I had "good software" to start with. And if they're having a horrible time reproducing the overview bug, maybe they should turn on their computers and log in. Is everyone on vacation?

Quote:
A QA department is probably given only a short timeframe for playing, and they don't always find problems.


Here's a technical acronym you may not understand, so I'll explain it for you: NMFP. Not My Funloving Problem. I don't care if their QA department is entirely composed of various small rodents. If they don't do their jobs, the should be fired. The real problem, though, is that the programmers don't fix these bugs in the test stage--the overview bug was reported when this build was on test, numerous times, and guess what? It wasn't fixed.

No excuse for that.

Roku Kotaki
Kotaki Enterprises
Posted - 2008.04.01 04:48:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Roku Kotaki on 01/04/2008 04:51:01
Originally by: Kaaze Meriivaas
Originally by: Roku Kotaki
Without player bug reports, this industry would have most likely fallen apart around the mid '90s, because no piece of software is bug free!


Fail claim is fail. In other words, you've completely lost any credibility with such a ridiculous statement, and have exposed yourself as a total muppet incapable of critical thinking.


You are the first person to ever say anything like that to me on a forum. I stated my opinion. I certainly didn't say it was fact. Why do I think that the game industry would have done what I said? Because, if it wasn't for the forum whiners complaining about problems with software, instead of voting with thier wallets, programmers would probably not rely on it's players to help track problems down. But, the players back then weren't nearly as selfish and were willing to help out!

Originally by: Kaaze Meriivaas
Originally by: Roku Kotaki
There is absolutely nothing wrong with volunteering your time to help make good software, excellent, by reporting things to the dev team that they most likely missed. Or, they are having a horrible time reproducing the bug so that it can be fixed.


If I want to volunteer, I'll pop round the local Red Cross or feed the homeless or something along those lines. Fact is, I'm a selfish bastard and I don't want to volunteer, and what's more is I expect a reasonable exchange of money for goods and services to be reasonable. Not only are these bugs unreasonable and ridiculous--beta busted, as a friend described them--the lack of communication from anyone in a position to let us know when we can expect these bugs to be fixed is just incredibly poor customer service. Maybe I'd feel differently if I had "good software" to start with. And if they're having a horrible time reproducing the overview bug, maybe they should turn on their computers and log in. Is everyone on vacation?


If you want to be a selfish bastard, then don't take the time to report problems and continue to throw away your money on a game that you think is completely broken, but won't take a minute to help out.

I understand the frustration. EVE is a new game to me, and reading the forums, the same bugs keep cropping up over and over again since the game was released. Maybe, because I'm a n00b to this game, I'm not as frustrated with the bugs, because I see them as extremely minor annoyances, rather than game breaking. For some reason, the major bugs: drop in framerate, massive lag in certain systems, crashes when locking targets, have never even cropped up on my machine. The UI problems, I see them as minor and can be lived with.

Originally by: Kaaze Meriivaas
Originally by: Roku Kotaki
A QA department is probably given only a short timeframe for playing, and they don't always find problems.


Here's a technical acronym you may not understand, so I'll explain it for you: NMFP. Not My Funloving Problem. I don't care if their QA department is entirely composed of various small rodents. If they don't do their jobs, the should be fired. The real problem, though, is that the programmers don't fix these bugs in the test stage--the overview bug was reported when this build was on test, numerous times, and guess what? It wasn't fixed.

No excuse for that.


True, there is no excuse when a bug was reported during testing and then still goes live. I haven't found the overveiw bug to be game breaking, yet, so I'm not complaining about it. In fact, I haven't found the overview bug on my machine at all! I feel for those having problems with the game, but doing as the OP said is not going to get anyone anywhere.


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