open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked Suicide ganking is FINE. It's YOU who's broken.
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5

Author Topic

Terminus adacai
Caldari
Racey Bee
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:03:00 - [61]
 

Again, not all ganked ships are haulers. Yes, someone carrying a billion in isk goods with an industrial flying solo in a hub is not a good idea. We get that.

The problem lies in the gankers risk vs reward. Plain and simple. What assurances do we have that throw away alts aren't profiting from a game mechanic? None that i can see.

This discussion is old, yes, but ganking seems to have become more common not only at gates, but in belts. Anyone defending such a mechanic has a motive for doing so.

As has been mentioned many times in numerous threads, take away the insurance pay out on criminally flagged kills. Seems pretty simple to me.

This would actually take care of the risk vs reward debate.


Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
Tuxedo.
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:06:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Terminus adacai
Anyone defending such a mechanic has a motive for doing so.


I believe in a thing called devils advocate

Terminus adacai
Caldari
Racey Bee
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:09:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Marcus TheMartin
Originally by: Terminus adacai
Anyone defending such a mechanic has a motive for doing so.


I believe in a thing called devils advocate


LOL, in a world of free trials and alt accounts, I call it BS.

Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
Tuxedo.
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:10:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Terminus adacai
Originally by: Marcus TheMartin
Originally by: Terminus adacai
Anyone defending such a mechanic has a motive for doing so.


I believe in a thing called devils advocate


LOL, in a world of free trials and alt accounts, I call it BS.


good thing you aren't a judge

Terminus adacai
Caldari
Racey Bee
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:17:00 - [65]
 

Maybe, but I can see what is going on. Again, what suggestions or ideas do you have to contribute regarding ganking?


Roid Hunter
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:22:00 - [66]
 

It is only a matter of time before CCP realizes that gank squads that are Concorded should not receive insurance payouts. I have yet to see a strong argument for paying insurance on criminal flagged losses other then the old argument that new players will leave. Please try again....


Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:23:00 - [67]
 

quote]
I can't stop you from losing money because you're greedy and want to haul it all in one trip, I can only just refuse to buy your overpriced goods.
Somebody else that's less careless WILL be selling it cheaper soon enough.



So if I spent months working on putting together a collection of items and decide to put it all in my truck to move across town instead of one piece at a time, I am being greedy and deserve to be robbed?

You can't seriously expect anyone to buy that right? Rolling Eyes

Marlona Sky
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:25:00 - [68]
 

You scared the might nerf bat is coming and you might have to actually earn your paycheck? Laughing

Big Fuzz
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:26:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Terminus adacai
Anyone defending such a mechanic has a motive for doing so.



Yep. Mine is that as more and more lazy and/or stupid people die, I make more isk because I'm neither lazy nor stupid.

The bottom line is that it is SO easy not to get ganked it's ridiculous.

People just keep loading up their iteron 3's with 100m of stuff, banging their heads into the same old wall and wondering why they keep getting the same crappy result time & again. Rather than take a few extra minutes to go around the wall they're spending hours upon hours whining for CCP to remove the wall.

Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
Tuxedo.
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:26:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Marcus TheMartin on 27/03/2008 06:27:34
06:27:12
Originally by: Terminus adacai
Maybe, but I can see what is going on. Again, what suggestions or ideas do you have to contribute regarding ganking?




remove insurance for every one who has been playing for more than 3 months

let people die

in death they learn

prevent trial accounts from shooting anyone in highsec unless agressed (same goes for npc corp members)

Hekilo Tetsatz
Amarr
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:34:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Akita T

Why does the GANKER have to have an even "risk vs reward" ratio ?
What's wrong if ONLY the victim's risk-vs-rewards ratio is "just right" ?


If the Ganker shouldn't have to have risk to go with his reward why should the victim? The Gankers are the first to **** about EVE being a PVP game and rant about 'risk vs. reward', but as evidenced by the alts, and trial accounts, and NPC corpers a good number of the gankers are a great deal more risk averse than the much derided 'carebears'.

Quote:
The "risk" of the suicide-ganker is that he gets bloody bored to death because no worthy suicide-gank target comes along.

There's your balance.



I'm going to assume that was a joke, otherwise you should support the banning of suicide ganking, hauling and mining are after all boring activities therefore 'carebears' are taking all the risk they need to warrant the reward. Rolling Eyes

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:38:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 27/03/2008 04:05:57
I regularly carry anywhere from about 40 to a max of 350M of loot from low-sec to high-sec in a T1 frigate on a 800K SP alt. Just not AFK... WTZ, jump, WTZ, jump.

And not to Jita.

AFK hauling is risky, it's supposed to be risky, damnit.


I used to carry stuff worth a hell of a lot more than that. In a tech 1 frigate. In and out of Jita. 2-3 times a day for weeks on end. I've never been suicide-ganked, ever.

Terminus adacai
Caldari
Racey Bee
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:40:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Big Fuzz
Originally by: Terminus adacai
Anyone defending such a mechanic has a motive for doing so.



Yep. Mine is that as more and more lazy and/or stupid people die, I make more isk because I'm neither lazy nor stupid.

The bottom line is that it is SO easy not to get ganked it's ridiculous.

People just keep loading up their iteron 3's with 100m of stuff, banging their heads into the same old wall and wondering why they keep getting the same crappy result time & again. Rather than take a few extra minutes to go around the wall they're spending hours upon hours whining for CCP to remove the wall.


Again, we are not just discussing gate camps. There are those that are engaging in ganking in belts as well. The problem is the current game mechanic that allows gankers to recover losses through insurance.

A hauler that has no protection and uses auto pilot hauling lots of iskies deserves what they get.

Just increase the risk to the gank squad. Unfortunately, most gankers are trial and alt toons that could care less about the current risk, standings.

Big Fuzz
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:45:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Hekilo Tetsatz
The Gankers are the first to **** about EVE being a PVP game and rant about 'risk vs. reward', but as evidenced by the alts, and trial accounts, and NPC corpers a good number of the gankers are a great deal more risk averse than the much derided 'carebears'.



This whole alt argument is irrelevant. If you know someone is recycling alts for this you need to petition it. It's bannable. Alt argument dismissed.

BTW: if you're getting popped by noob alts with no skill points you really deserve to die because you put exactly zero effort into avoiding it AND you're on autopilot.

Guys, just spend 2 seconds covering your ass and you won't die. Hell, you can even fly a fully expanded t1 hauler with a ton of value in it with reasonable safety as long as you are at the keys using WTZ.

Is that REALLY so much to ask? Really worth all the time spent complaining? Really?

AKULA UrQuan
Caldari
Druuge Crimson Corporation
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:50:00 - [75]
 

It's the little things that'll keep you safe.

-picking out the sound of a cargo scanner running.
-The rifter that locked you may not be a moron.
-Fly manualy useing WTZ.
-Run a shuttle along the flightpath first.
-Have a trusted corpmate (with a clue) fly 1-2 jumps ahead.
-Take the longer, less traveled, path.
-Nanofiber & I-Stabs too much trouble?

Somewhere along the line I apparently missed the memo where effort was nolonger needed in eve.

Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
Tuxedo.
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:50:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Terminus adacai
Originally by: Big Fuzz
Unfortunately, most gankers are trial and alt toons that could care less about the current risk, standings.


provide numbers

Big Fuzz
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:55:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Terminus adacai

Again, we are not just discussing gate camps. There are those that are engaging in ganking in belts as well. The problem is the current game mechanic that allows gankers to recover losses through insurance.



Hulk, allow me to introduce you to Basilisk. Basilisk, Hulk.

Fleet of hulks are then gankproofed by one nice pilot hanging out in a belt with them.

If you complain about how it sucks so bad that you can't do it solo, etc. etc. Either 1) get some friends and suck it up; 2) train a logistics alt; 3) accept the increased risk of a gank; 4) fly a covetor that isn't worth ganking & make a bit less isk/second.

None of this is too much to ask. All denying insurance payouts to gankers does is raise gankable threshold. We'll be having this SAME argument in a month when people find it suddenly outrageous that it's worth it for an uninsured brutix to gank their (insert whatever current value being used is + 20m) ship.

Bellum Eternus
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:56:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Cpt Fina
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Cpt Fina
Freighters are borked tbqh. It's not suiciders fault, it's not the traders fault. The ship is borked.

Scenario seven Twisted Evil



The freighter can't haul anything worth more than 1,000 ISK/m3 at full load.
The freighter can only haul 1,05 times its own worth.
The freighterpilot can do next to nothing on his own to modify his ship to counter a percieved threat unlike any other ship in the game bar shuttles.
Escorts are often not financially viable.
Multiple runs are often not financially viable.


By using two people (freighter pilot and one gangmate), you can render a freighter nearly invulnerable. Particularly in highsec.

Terminus adacai
Caldari
Racey Bee
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:56:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Big Fuzz
Originally by: Hekilo Tetsatz
The Gankers are the first to **** about EVE being a PVP game and rant about 'risk vs. reward', but as evidenced by the alts, and trial accounts, and NPC corpers a good number of the gankers are a great deal more risk averse than the much derided 'carebears'.



This whole alt argument is irrelevant. If you know someone is recycling alts for this you need to petition it. It's bannable. Alt argument dismissed.

BTW: if you're getting popped by noob alts with no skill points you really deserve to die because you put exactly zero effort into avoiding it AND you're on autopilot.

Guys, just spend 2 seconds covering your ass and you won't die. Hell, you can even fly a fully expanded t1 hauler with a ton of value in it with reasonable safety as long as you are at the keys using WTZ.

Is that REALLY so much to ask? Really worth all the time spent complaining? Really?


Rather then requiring an honest hard working pilot to investigate disposable alts or trials, just remove insurance pay outs.

As for new pilots not being able to kill an industrial, do you not realize that alt toons with configurable skills and insurance are common place?

Again, why should victim prove he was attacked by throw away alts? Just remove the insurance pay out....

How simple can it be?

Roid Hunter
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:58:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: AKULA UrQuan
It's the little things that'll keep you safe.


Somewhere along the line I apparently missed the memo where effort was nolonger needed in eve.


You missed the "gankers are us" news letter then. How much effort do they put into hunting prey? Where is their risk?

Imperator Jora'h
Posted - 2008.03.27 06:58:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 27/03/2008 07:01:22
Originally by: Shakuul
There are plenty of ways to avoid suicide ganking.


Funny...I see people say stuff like this all the time in threads like this but they never actually mention how it is done. Some claim it is a super sekkrit only they are privvy to and not willing to give up their advantage but really they have no clue.

Bottom line is if a suicider wants to kill you they will kill you. Guards cannot do near enough to save you in time, you can tank all you want and it will not help if the gankers have a smidgen of a clue.

THAT is what is bogus about this. Give haulers a legitimate means to protect themselves (or with others guarding them). Make ganks a less certain "I Win" button. As a game mechanic the current system stinks.

1) I have X-ship worth Y-ISK
1a) I know X-ship can output Z-Damage in 20 seconds

2) See hauler
2a) Scan hauler (which he can do nothing to prevent)
2b) If hauler defense < Z-Damage proceed to step 2c else abort
2c) If mods + cargo / 2 > Y-ISK proceed to step 3 else abort

3) Target hauler
3a) Press F1-F?, web and scram, bump for good measure if you are bored
3b) Wait for hauler to pop, wait for you to pop

4) Collect loot with ALT

5) Rinse and Repeat as necessary

EDIT: I am *NOT* suggesting making haulers immune. Indeed AFK types should drop as easily under whatever system. But if a hauler makes the effort to protect themself then it should bear real results...not they die in 18 seconds instead of 15 seconds.

Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
Tuxedo.
Posted - 2008.03.27 07:03:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Terminus adacai
[
Rather then requiring an honest hard working pilot to investigate disposable alts or trials, just remove insurance pay outs.

As for new pilots not being able to kill an industrial, do you not realize that alt toons with configurable skills and insurance are common place?

Again, why should victim prove he was attacked by throw away alts? Just remove the insurance pay out....

How simple can it be?


Ravens and t's must be hard work jeeze just put in that simple battleship + skill investment and read a few guides on exactly what you need to do and just let it roll in

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.03.27 07:12:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

2) See hauler
2a) Scan hauler (which he can do nothing to prevent)
2b) If hauler defense < Z-Damage proceed to step 2c else abort
2c) If mods + cargo / 2 > Y-ISK proceed to step 3 else abort

3) Target hauler
3a) Press F1-F?, web and scram, bump for good measure if you are bored
3b) Wait for hauler to pop, wait for you to pop


If you haven't warped long before those steps can be taken, you're probably on auto-pilot.

Big Fuzz
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.27 07:21:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 27/03/2008 07:01:22
Originally by: Shakuul
There are plenty of ways to avoid suicide ganking.


Funny...I see people say stuff like this all the time in threads like this but they never actually mention how it is done...

...2b) If hauler defense < Z-Damage proceed to step 2c else abort
2c) If mods + cargo / 2 > Y-ISK proceed to step 3 else abort



Any other questions you have that I can point out how you answer a few sentences later?

The 100% secure method: Make it so all the stupid people are better targets than me. Lord knows eve is in no short supply of them. Yep, that means don't put a billion isk in a badger. Put a billion isk in a freighter instead.

The 99% secure method: SIT AT THE KEYS AND WARP TO ZERO. Almost everyone who gets suicided is afk.

Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
Tuxedo.
Posted - 2008.03.27 07:21:00 - [85]
 

every one stop pulling numbers out of your ass

Roid Hunter
Posted - 2008.03.27 07:21:00 - [86]
 

Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

2) See hauler
2a) Scan hauler (which he can do nothing to prevent)
2b) If hauler defense < Z-Damage proceed to step 2c else abort
2c) If mods + cargo / 2 > Y-ISK proceed to step 3 else abort

3) Target hauler
3a) Press F1-F?, web and scram, bump for good measure if you are bored
3b) Wait for hauler to pop, wait for you to pop


If you haven't warped long before those steps can be taken, you're probably on auto-pilot.


Or in a hauler........

Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.03.27 07:25:00 - [87]
 

Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 27/03/2008 07:34:53
Originally by: Roid Hunter
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

2) See hauler
2a) Scan hauler (which he can do nothing to prevent)
2b) If hauler defense < Z-Damage proceed to step 2c else abort
2c) If mods + cargo / 2 > Y-ISK proceed to step 3 else abort

3) Target hauler
3a) Press F1-F?, web and scram, bump for good measure if you are bored
3b) Wait for hauler to pop, wait for you to pop


If you haven't warped long before those steps can be taken, you're probably on auto-pilot.


Or in a hauler........


...with nearly no agility skills trained... ...or on auto pilot.

Edit: Actually scratch that. On auto pilot. It should not take that much for any ship to get into warp. And if it does, you can always simply put on a mwd and pulse it, to sharply reduce the time it takes.

Xyn Rhais
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2008.03.27 07:45:00 - [88]
 

And yet you made no mention of the risk for the person who does the ganking when you say "suicide ganking is fine"... because there isn't any maybe ?.

There is no such thing as people who "provide the risk for others". That's just the BS of gankbears, your risk/reward should be comparable to that of your intended victims.

You make it sound like only trading chars get suicide ganked. Also I laughed at the "tanked hauler". Comedy Laughing.

Fact is:
- if you fly a freighter or a transport, people can suicide gank you just to **** you off. Because their loss is lower then your empty ship.
Suicide ganking isn't fine right now (in terms of cost/difficulty) and you just made a big failpost.

Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
Tuxedo.
Posted - 2008.03.27 08:15:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Xyn Rhais


Fact is:
- if you fly a freighter or a transport, people can suicide gank you just to **** you off. Because their loss is lower then your empty ship.



I can just smart bomb your pod just to **** you off but does that mean it happens?

Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
Posted - 2008.03.27 08:22:00 - [90]
 

Edited by: Willow Whisp on 27/03/2008 08:26:10
Originally by: Xyn Rhais
And yet you made no mention of the risk for the person who does the ganking when you say "suicide ganking is fine"... because there isn't any maybe ?.

Risk: The good loot will pop.
Risk: The target will be on it's toes and gets away
Risk: Ship Loss - Insurance + Modules + Dropped loot may not be enough to offset losses
Risk: Some other noob in a hauler steals the dropped loot before their alt can scoop it...

Quote:
There is no such thing as people who "provide the risk for others". That's just the BS of gankbears, your risk/reward should be comparable to that of your intended victims.

Read above. The "Gankbears" do all they can to minimize their risk. They fly cheap t1 fit ships to minimize their risk and losses, and maximize their profit. By the same measure, taking steps to protect yourself, minimizes your own risk. The problem, is that those that tend to get suicide ganked, do not minimize their risks, or take steps to protect their assets.

Quote:
Fact is:
- if you fly a freighter or a transport, people can suicide gank you just to **** you off. Because their loss is lower then your empty ship.
Suicide ganking isn't fine right now (in terms of cost/difficulty) and you just made a big failpost.

They would have to catch my transport first. A t1 freighter can also be insured, thus if the insurance on the suicide gankers covers their losses, then so does the insurance on your freighter cover your loss. (by your logic)

To those that continue to bring up the "Recycled Trial Account" arguement.

The most used Suicide Gank ship is the battlecruiser.
Relevant bit bolded:
BATTLECRUISERS
Battlecruisers Skill at operating Battlecruisers. Can not be trained on Trial Accounts.




Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only