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blankseplocked getting carebears out of NPC corps
 
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Jolliejoe
Caldari
Stellar Implosions
Posted - 2008.03.26 17:46:00 - [91]
 

Don't understand the reason for this post...

This game is what anyone expects of it and how anyone acts in it. Some people like to pvp, some like to pve, some like to mine, some like to kill miners, some like to kill pve'ers... So what is your point?

I think CCP should put a BAN on the term carebear because in essence there is nothing with a carebear. Unless they are macromining carebears.... The term alone is insulting. Now, I'm not a carebear but I'm getting a little tired of all the people here whining about carebears.

Rod Blaine
Evolution
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2008.03.26 17:52:00 - [92]
 

Aside from the silly discussion about terminology, (it's rather typical that those scorned by the carebear term object so much while those scorned by the griefer term are are proud of their label)
NPC corps indeed pose a problem, and always have.

NPC corps break the balancing act Eve does that says that any action may have a consequence determined by other players. That consequence is generally of the form chosen by the player(s) that provide it.

But there are other things in the way of the same balance. CCP should solve all, or none.\

Nigel Tell
Amarr
Posted - 2008.03.26 17:53:00 - [93]
 

Originally by: Amarth Thargan
Why do some you people even play games? So what if someone has a trillion isks but doesn't fly around doing pew-pew?

If you want a lot of the precious isk you need to spend time on that aswell...the average age EvE is said to be 27, i think the forum's average age is 16: confused, eager to impress and unwilling to take responsibility for their own choices or acts.

Eve's not a game! It's serious damn business! It's harsh, man. Harsh, I tells ya'!

Vulchev
Caldari
Posted - 2008.03.26 17:58:00 - [94]
 

I'll do whatever the hell you like as long as you pay for my GTCs. That way it'll be your game anyway.

Until then, GTFO my play style.

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2008.03.26 18:02:00 - [95]
 

Originally by: Rod Blaine
Aside from the silly discussion about terminology, (it's rather typical that those scorned by the carebear term object so much while those scorned by the griefer term are are proud of their label)
NPC corps indeed pose a problem, and always have.

NPC corps break the balancing act Eve does that says that any action may have a consequence determined by other players. That consequence is generally of the form chosen by the player(s) that provide it.

But there are other things in the way of the same balance. CCP should solve all, or none.\



The last part I have to disagree with, because at least one of them may as well be unsolvable--alts.

That doesn't mean the other areas of the game that are both consequences-weak and addressable shouldn't be addressed.

Mediocrity
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.03.26 18:27:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Raediearn
Carebears in NPC corps who stay in high security space all day and farm isk with no real risk and cannot be war dec'ed.
I think they should have to pay higher taxes and broker fees when placing market orders. This would give those in player corps a tangible advantage and provide an incentive to get out of the NPC corps which are really for new players only.
Maybe this has been suggested already.


I think you should mind your own business and stop worrying about how other people choose to play the game.

III LightBringer
The Treehugger Corp
Posted - 2008.03.26 18:42:00 - [97]
 

Originally by: Raediearn
Carebears in NPC corps who stay in high security space all day and farm isk with no real risk and cannot be war dec'ed.
I think they should have to pay higher taxes and broker fees when placing market orders. This would give those in player corps a tangible advantage and provide an incentive to get out of the NPC corps which are really for new players only.
Maybe this has been suggested already.


Why don't you and 14 friends of yours get together and kill a few of them then?
I have killed a few n00b corp people in empire, and they die just as fast as the one that are in a player corp. Only thing is that I do not have to fear their corp mates.

There are no risk in EVE not caused by other players.

AleRiperKilt
Posted - 2008.03.26 18:50:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Cipher7

My solution.

Raise all bounties and payouts by %15.

Add %15 tax to NPC corps.



It's not the tax rate, it's the overall crapiness of player run corps.

If you want more carebears in your corp you need to provide them with something attractive enough to compensate for the risk of being an easy target and all the other player-corp BS.

How about wardec immunity?, you could pay Concord a weekly fee x times the cost of wardec to make you immune to them (Concord refuses the wardec request).

Until something like that happens, the only way I can think of is to have a very strong mercenary arm in your corp to protect your carebears... so strong no empire wardec *****s dare going after your corp.

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2008.03.26 18:53:00 - [99]
 

TAX

NPC

CORPS

Victor Forge
Amarr
Posted - 2008.03.26 18:54:00 - [100]
 

There was a suggestion a few months ago that was mostly about killing macro-haulers in low-sec. Anyway it was also a soft way to encourage players to leave their NPC-corps eventually. The suggestion was that Gateguns in low-sec did not protect players in NPC corps.

This in combination with much stronger Gateguns should in theory making Gatecamping real players in player-corps harder, and macro-haulers risk-free. If a player chose to stay in a NPC-corp he will not notice any difference in High-sec, however in low-sec he better have a blockaderunner.

Ethaet
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.03.26 18:55:00 - [101]
 

Edited by: Ethaet on 26/03/2008 19:05:06
Edited by: Ethaet on 26/03/2008 18:55:06
Originally by: Frug
TAX

NPC

CORPS


I see your problem, its that key to the left of your 'A' key, please press it once.

Ulstan
Posted - 2008.03.26 18:56:00 - [102]
 

Is the OP crying about being unable to wardec people who can't fight back? Yes, I think so.

Grow a pair and stop whining.

Christari Zuborov
Amarr
Ore Mongers
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.03.26 20:53:00 - [103]
 

I firmly believe the there should be a 30-40% tax rate on NPC corp players. I believe that NPC corp players have too little loss in their bottom lines, and have an unfair advantage in pricing for mining and goods.

That 30-40% tax rate should apply to:

player to player transfers.
all forms of bounty prizes.
sales taxes.

What I also think should happen, is that it should be a graduated tax. Starting at 10% @ 5 months play, 20% @ 10 months, 30% @ 14 months, and 40% @ 1.5 yrs.

By 6 months into the game a player should be fairly established, and at 1 year a highly motivated person should be doing well. Anything after 1 year of age should feel the pinch of needing to be a corp for better taxation.


Cpt Fina
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2008.03.26 20:58:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Frug
TAX

NPC

CORPS



QFT!

Players in NPC corps undermine the idea of responsibility for ones actions.
Introduce a tax on rewards from missions/rats. Increase the market tax and broker's fee. Limit their combat-capabilities in one way or another. This should be made without having a too big of an impact on new players imo.

It's bs that one has to play against people who can be just as competative in most areas without having to face the risk that others do.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.03.26 21:10:00 - [105]
 

Originally by: Christari Zuborov
I firmly believe the there should be a 30-40% tax rate on NPC corp players.
Sure, but then the NPC corp should replace any ship, fittings, and implants the NPC corp players should happen to lose...

Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2008.03.26 21:14:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
I firmly believe the there should be a 30-40% tax rate on NPC corp players.
Sure, but then the NPC corp should replace any ship, fittings, and implants the NPC corp players should happen to lose...


No you're paying for immunity from wardecs.

Cpt Fina
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2008.03.26 21:15:00 - [107]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
I firmly believe the there should be a 30-40% tax rate on NPC corp players.
Sure, but then the NPC corp should replace any ship, fittings, and implants the NPC corp players should happen to lose...


No that would be the tax for war-dec invulnerability alone.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.03.26 21:18:00 - [108]
 

Originally by: Cpt Fina
No that would be the tax for war-dec invulnerability alone.
No, being war-dec:able is the price you pay for having control over your own allegiance and being able to expand your empire.

Cpt Fina
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2008.03.26 21:35:00 - [109]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Cpt Fina
No that would be the tax for war-dec invulnerability alone.
No, being war-dec:able is the price you pay for having control over your own allegiance and being able to expand your empire.


Then why do we have startingfees for corps and alliances?

Why would corps be penalized like this when CCP themselves claim that their goal is to get people into corps?

Gamesguy
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
Posted - 2008.03.26 21:35:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Cpt Fina
No that would be the tax for war-dec invulnerability alone.
No, being war-dec:able is the price you pay for having control over your own allegiance and being able to expand your empire.


Allegiance? Expand empire? What empire and allegiance is your typical L4 highsec corp expanding exactly?Rolling Eyes

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.03.26 21:40:00 - [111]
 

Originally by: Cpt Fina
Why would corps be penalized like this when CCP themselves claim that their goal is to get people into corps?
See - this is a much better question, and might also give some insight into why it is so hard to get people to leave the NPC corps.
Originally by: Gamesguy
Allegiance? Expand empire? What empire and allegiance is your typical L4 highsec corp expanding exactly?
As has been said whenever one of us n00bs asks how to go about moving out of high-sec: just take a chance, be brave and do it. Go out and find a group they want to join, or find a bunch of likeminded and create a new one.

Apparently, their lack of ambition is their own problem...

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.03.26 21:41:00 - [112]
 

Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 26/03/2008 21:43:08
Ok now the sillynes must end:

If there are such HUGE benefits in being a member of a NPC corp, then why isn't EVERYBODY member of one?

What is stopping you? Not the game mechanics, that's for sure.

Dang.Rolling Eyes

Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.03.26 21:45:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Rod Blaine

NPC corps break the balancing act Eve does that says that any action may have a consequence determined by other players. That consequence is generally of the form chosen by the player(s) that provide it.



Btw. five years of experience tells me that CCP don't see it that way.

Cpt Fina
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2008.03.26 21:55:00 - [114]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Cpt Fina
Why would corps be penalized like this when CCP themselves claim that their goal is to get people into corps?
See - this is a much better question, and might also give some insight into why it is so hard to get people to leave the NPC corps.


Well, it was a follow-up question based on your "No, being war-dec:able is the price you pay for having control over your own allegiance and being able to expand your empire.".

Fact is that players in NPC corp can compete on an equal level in many aspects of this game while undermining the very feature one has to remove competition.

Christari Zuborov
Amarr
Ore Mongers
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.03.26 22:09:00 - [115]
 

Maybe we're all, "Grass is greener on the other side"...

So, considering that possibility - I have a few questions since it's been quite a while since I've been in an NPC corp.

NPC Corps:
Do you pay taxes on transactions? What percentage?
Are there anything crafting things you don't have access to?
Can you rent stations, put up pos's, purchase labs?
Are there any ships you have no access to?

And because I don't know of any downsides of being in an NPC Corp, here's the free flow option:

What do you feel are the downsides to being in an NPC Corps?


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2008.03.26 22:10:00 - [116]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 26/03/2008 22:15:52
Originally by: Cpt Fina
Fact is that players in NPC corp can compete on an equal level in many aspects of this game while undermining the very feature one has to remove competition.
Yes, but the devil is in the detail... or in the wording in this case.

You reframed the problem from "what's wrong with NPC corps" to "what's wrong with player corps" - the former suggesting that the solution is a nerf; the latter that a buff is in order. If you feel that there isn't enough incentive to run a player corp - why not provide such an incentive by directly changing the way player corps are run? The corp players are happy - their situation just improved - the NPC players are... well, indifferent - their life go on as before. Sounds like a better solution than leaving the corpers indifferent and the NPCers unhappy.

In addition, players generally respond better to a buff. Such a move will give the NPCers an opportunity to reconsider their situation, whereas a nerf would just give them an opportunity to whine.

...but as mentioned above - this all hinges on the assumption that NPC corps are as good as some claim, which raises the question: if they are, why are there so many player corps? Why isn't everyone in an NPC corp if the advantages are so great?

SoftRevolution
Posted - 2008.03.26 22:11:00 - [117]
 

This thread is nestled in between cry-threads about suicide ganking.

Noone is happy. The system works.

ps. CCP do their damnedest to encourage alts.

Venkul Mul
Gallente
Posted - 2008.03.26 22:33:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Christari Zuborov

Do you pay taxes on transactions? What percentage?



Yes, exactly like you, depend on standing with the station where you sell and relevant skills.

Originally by: Christari Zuborov

Are there anything crafting things you don't have access to?



All that can be constructed only at a POS, included reactions and moon mining.

Originally by: Christari Zuborov

Can you rent stations, put up pos's, purchase labs?



Can't rent hangar in station, can't put up pos, can't purchase labs for pos.

Originally by: Christari Zuborov

Are there any ships you have no access to?



No, even if I would be very curious to see how someon can use a supercapital in a NPC corp. but probably using alts it is possible to manage it.


Originally by: Christari Zuborov

And because I don't know of any downsides of being in an NPC Corp, here's the free flow option:

What do you feel are the downsides to being in an NPC Corps?



Beside the above? Can't be helped by other players in the corp when aggressed. Can't be helped by other player in the corp when can is stolen. Essentially if you get aggro you don't get anyone that can help you.

Weakest safety net as some NPC corp players can help you, but in a good corporation they will support you much more.

Can't access corporation BPO (a good corporation will have a noticeable number of researched BPo for production, locked against corp thieves, but usable.

No access to a corporation hangar with plenty of "free" ammunition and low metalevel modules.

Can't wardec someone (rarely, but you can want to do it).

Harder to set up group operation.

A good corporation is way better than the NPC corp, sadly there is a large percentage of bad corporation and hardly a good system to recognize the good from the bad.




Deaell Portt
Gallente
V O O D O O
Posted - 2008.03.26 22:40:00 - [119]
 

I see many people have problem with "casual players".
WTS Clue :Get a life. This is only a game.Great game but only a game.

Minings ops, mandatory ops, pos fueling, roams,politics,mining poses,forums,killboards,ventirlo, team speak, irc ...................................
Casual player dont have time to deal with this all. So dont force him to play how u want.

Cpt Fina
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation
space weaponry and trade
Posted - 2008.03.26 22:56:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: Tippia

You reframed the problem from "what's wrong with NPC corps" to "what's wrong with player corps"


Well, to be precise i asked what the fees for corps and alliances are for when you claimed that "being war-dec:able is the price you pay for having control over your own allegiance and being able to expand your empire" and thus refuted the idea of a taxation of the war-dec invulnerability in NPC-corps.

If, according to your claim (got a link btw?), the benefits of being in a corp is paid by the risk of being war-decced then what are the startingfees for?
It appears to me that the fees you pay for making a corp/alliance is the cost for the benefits you recieve.

Originally by: Tippia

- the former suggesting that the solution is a nerf; the latter that a buff is in order. If you feel that there isn't enough incentive to run a player corp - why not provide such an incentive by directly changing the way player corps are run? The corp players are happy - their situation just improved - the NPC players are... well, indifferent - their life go on as before. Sounds like a better solution than leaving the corpers indifferent and the NPCers unhappy.


To adress the problem a nerf and a buff would have the same inpact in NPC-players.

Nerf: Increase tax-rate by 5% for players in NPC-corps and decrease NPC-bounties by 10% for players in NPC-corps

Buff: Increase the general tax-rate on the market by 5% but buff player-corps so that they don't get affected and decrease the general NPC-bounties by 10% but buff player-corps so they don't get affected.


Originally by: Tippia
In addition, players generally respond better to a buff. Such a move will give the NPCers an opportunity to reconsider their situation, whereas a nerf would just give them an opportunity to whine.


One's buff are the other players nerf. Alot of people fail to realize that it's relative. Eg. If we were to multiply ratbounties by 2 in highsec and multiply them by 500 in low-sec and 0,0, the high.sec missionrunner would earn twice as much as before but 1/250 as much relative to the rest of the players.

Originally by: Tippia

...but as mentioned above - this all hinges on the assumption that NPC corps are as good as some claim, which raises the question: if they are, why are there so many player corps? Why isn't everyone in an NPC corp if the advantages are so great?


Alot of people like the idea of player-driven corporations, just as it was intended by CCP. The social aspect of being in a player corp and the common goals that it sets are reason enough for many. I would imagine that they also accept the fact that ones action in game can and should have the desired consequences that the ones being affected by these actions wish. Or in other words; a more profound understanding of what this game is meant to be about.


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