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blankseplocked Eve is a cold, dark, harsh place - oh, really?
 
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Bklyn 1
Posted - 2008.03.25 22:43:00 - [1]
 

I keep seeing words to this effect, but it simply is not so. To prove that it is not, I present the following:
1) Alts. If Eve were a cold, harsh place, there would be no alts. 1 character per account. Live with the results of your actions tough guy.
2) Level 4 missions in high-sec. Is there an easier way to make isk with less effort? If so, please let me know what it is.
3) Local. For goodness sake, you can see your (known) enemies coming from a mile away. Why is this not changed to "Constellation?"
4) Insurance. Explain to me again why this even exists. You won't find a more carebear game mechanic anywhere, (WOW included).
5) Warp to Zero. Can we make it any easier to escape (please not that I support WTZ because I hated bookmarks or sitting staring at a station or gate doing nothing while I'm waiting to get there).

Throw in all the non-game mechanic metagaming like logging off because people are terrified of being on a kill mail and I really don't get the cold, dark, harsh part.

Benco97
Gallente
Terraprobe Dynamics
Posted - 2008.03.25 22:47:00 - [2]
 

My personal feelings on your points are as follows:
1) I agree, goddamn alts making people not fear consequences of their actions.
2) Eh, I don't really care about that one, never been involved with missions myself.
3) I agree, something should be done really, local is a powerful intel tool.
4) Again, I agree, Never liked the insurance system.
5) I was much happier with eve before WTZ was introduced, I've not lost a ship ONCE to pirates since WTZ.

as I said, just my opinions, not calling for things to be done about it.

Ilvan
Gallente
Post with your Brain
Posted - 2008.03.25 22:51:00 - [3]
 

Yeah, I have to agree with you. It's pretty much become a carebear game no matter what role you play.

Capital Kill
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2008.03.25 22:53:00 - [4]
 

1) I personally don't much care for alts, but their not going away so its no use whining about them Smile
2) Personally I just started manufacturing and it seems like an easy way to make money even when your afk.
3) I agree, lets ditch local and go for constellation, local in out of the way systems isn't very talkative Sad
4) I think for the new people insurance is very important, but for older players its just a cheap way to go through lots of ships with nearly no isk actually lost.
5) Don't do much pvp myself so I don't really care about people escaping, but I would be devastated if I had to watch my freighter go 100m/s all the way to the gate every time.

Vanessa Vasquez
Quantar Swords
Posted - 2008.03.25 22:54:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Vanessa Vasquez on 25/03/2008 23:00:09
1) totaly agree. alternatively, alts should at least be marked somehow
2) 0.0 rating? Dunno about that, but i would vote for harder missions. none scripted ones should do the trick
3) again, totaly agree! i've not done much pvp so far, but when i did, it was pretty boring to wait at a gate/station and watch local ...
4) i agree somehow, but in WoW, you don't loose much of your equipment, do you? :)
5) dunno. when all it'll change is to create more bookmarks, then i like WTZ very very much.

Arana Tellen
Gallente
Clan Death Corps
Posted - 2008.03.25 22:55:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Bklyn 1
I keep seeing words to this effect, but it simply is not so. To prove that it is not, I present the following:
1) Alts. If Eve were a cold, harsh place, there would be no alts. 1 character per account. Live with the results of your actions tough guy.
2) Level 4 missions in high-sec. Is there an easier way to make isk with less effort? If so, please let me know what it is.
3) Local. For goodness sake, you can see your (known) enemies coming from a mile away. Why is this not changed to "Constellation?"
4) Insurance. Explain to me again why this even exists. You won't find a more carebear game mechanic anywhere, (WOW included).
5) Warp to Zero. Can we make it any easier to escape (please not that I support WTZ because I hated bookmarks or sitting staring at a station or gate doing nothing while I'm waiting to get there).

Throw in all the non-game mechanic metagaming like logging off because people are terrified of being on a kill mail and I really don't get the cold, dark, harsh part.


4) WOW does not have this because you dont loose anything when you die Razz otherwise I can understand the other points.

Niccolado Starwalker
Gallente
Shadow Templars
Posted - 2008.03.25 22:59:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 25/03/2008 23:00:12
The fun thing about alts is they have become sort of a neccesety in Deep space and Low Sec. Because every time I hear someone claim its too harsh and unlawful with lots of gatecamps there, the answer from others is and will always be get a alt to scout for you.

The game and its players are really in many aspects their own worst enemy. Not the game itself and its mechanics. Take bookmarks for example. Everyone used them to such a degree it completely bogged down the servers! At that point CCP did not have much of a choice to introduce a feature to get rid of it. And the solution could only be two things. WTZ or make it harder by not making it possible to make bookmarks within certain distance of certain objects etc. I personally think they did the right thing. Besides the second solution could have proved very difficult to make.


Stakhanov
Metafarmers
MeatSausage EXPRESS
Posted - 2008.03.25 23:05:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Bklyn 1
3) Local. For goodness sake, you can see your (known) enemies coming from a mile away. Why is this not changed to "Constellation?"


So that you don't see them coming from a lightyear away ? Razz

Agreed on most other points. Alts should have never been allowed to begin with , missions destroy the risk/rewards balance and warp to zero made travel a little too easy (though sniping at lowsec gates was a cheap form of piracy)
Insurance probably helps people a little too much , but at the same time allows true skill to make more of a difference than ISK or SP (so you can win a war with T1 cruisers if you manage to defeat the enemies' HACs)

Ilvan
Gallente
Post with your Brain
Posted - 2008.03.25 23:07:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Edited by: Niccolado Starwalker on 25/03/2008 23:00:12
The fun thing about alts is they have become sort of a neccesety in Deep space and Low Sec. Because every time I hear someone claim its too harsh and unlawful with lots of gatecamps there, the answer from others is and will always be get a alt to scout for you.

The game and its players are really in many aspects their own worst enemy. Not the game itself and its mechanics. Take bookmarks for example. Everyone used them to such a degree it completely bogged down the servers! At that point CCP did not have much of a choice to introduce a feature to get rid of it. And the solution could only be two things. WTZ or make it harder by not making it possible to make bookmarks within certain distance of certain objects etc. I personally think they did the right thing. Besides the second solution could have proved very difficult to make.



You can't blame players for using what's available to them. If a certain part of the game grants a lopsided advantage to those who use it, then it's not the fault of the players for using it, it's CCP's fault for failing to balance their game.

It'd be like putting an I-WIN button on the UI and then blaming players for pushing it.

Sereifex Daku
Firestorm Projects
Capital Storm
Posted - 2008.03.25 23:19:00 - [10]
 

I agree with all of the OP's points.

1) A forum can put potential customers off. when people make forum alts and troll to excess it can give the wrong impression of a game community.
2) It makes sense to have no level 4s in high sec. They are very hard to do on one's own, so if you are missioning with friends then why fear pirates? If you have skill then you should hardly ever get caught.
3) Removing local would create a more solid role for people with scanners. It would promote teamwork and make 0.0 feel a lot more exciting.
4) Anything bigger than a battlecruiser shouldn't have insurance, imo.
5) WTZ has destroyed my perception of the EVE universe. It used to feel good playing in a vast universe. Now it jsut feels as small as Azeroth. However, if WTZ were to be removed then I'd insist that it would be impossible to create bookmarks next to stargates or starbases. Instas annoyed me.

Recon Three
Palsies
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2008.03.25 23:23:00 - [11]
 

There should be some kind of "Hardcore" server. Same characters you have on Tranquility, but it'd be a completely different world.

And by Hardcore, I'm talking Diablo-type Hardcore. IF YOU DIE YOU DED.

Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
Tuxedo.
Posted - 2008.03.25 23:26:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Recon Three
There should be some kind of "Hardcore" server. Same characters you have on Tranquility, but it'd be a completely different world.

And by Hardcore, I'm talking Diablo-type Hardcore. IF YOU DIE YOU DED.



bleh>Hostiles in system
w34u9> How many?
bleh> 2
w34u9> we've got 30 active at the moment
bleh> **** dock up every one

Recon Three
Palsies
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2008.03.25 23:31:00 - [13]
 

Okay, maybe not that "hardcore". Embarassed

Anell
Minmatar
Evil Avatar Ltd.
Posted - 2008.03.25 23:34:00 - [14]
 

In regards to the OP's post. Just because EVE could be an even harsher game with an even higher death penalty etc does not mean it is a warm and fuzzy environment. I like EVE and enjoy it a great deal. But don't pretend its not one of if not the harshest and coldest MMO's to come out of a non-asian country.

Ilvan
Gallente
Post with your Brain
Posted - 2008.03.25 23:44:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Anell
In regards to the OP's post. Just because EVE could be an even harsher game with an even higher death penalty etc does not mean it is a warm and fuzzy environment. I like EVE and enjoy it a great deal. But don't pretend its not one of if not the harshest and coldest MMO's to come out of a non-asian country.

Gimme a break. Insurance, free (perfect!) recon through chat channels, an invincible and unstoppable police force... EVE might be "harsh and cold" compared to WoW but it's still pretty damn warm and fuzzy.

The death penalty is only a single piece of the issue.

Sereifex Daku
Firestorm Projects
Capital Storm
Posted - 2008.03.25 23:49:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Ilvan

Gimme a break. Insurance, free (perfect!) recon through chat channels, an invincible and unstoppable police force... EVE might be "harsh and cold" compared to WoW but it's still pretty damn warm and fuzzy.

The death penalty is only a single piece of the issue.


Agreed, EvE is a very harsh game compared to the *press number keys to win* mmorpgs out there, but compared to how EVE used to be, the game is quite easy nowadays.

ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.25 23:53:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Bklyn 1
4) Insurance. Explain to me again why this even exists. You won't find a more carebear game mechanic anywhere, (WOW included).
Very wrong on this one though.

If you're thining about suicide gankers then yes, insurance needs to be void, but if they don't get anything they sure lose (time+money).

Eve is hands down the game with the harshest death penalties.Rolling Eyes
Unless all you do is throw up trial accounts and suicide in your thrasher ofc Razz

Xaen
Caldari
Aperture Harmonics
K162
Posted - 2008.03.25 23:59:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Bklyn 1
I keep seeing words to this effect, but it simply is not so. To prove that it is not, I present the following:
1) Alts. If Eve were a cold, harsh place, there would be no alts. 1 character per account. Live with the results of your actions tough guy.
2) Level 4 missions in high-sec. Is there an easier way to make isk with less effort? If so, please let me know what it is.
3) Local. For goodness sake, you can see your (known) enemies coming from a mile away. Why is this not changed to "Constellation?"
4) Insurance. Explain to me again why this even exists. You won't find a more carebear game mechanic anywhere, (WOW included).
5) Warp to Zero. Can we make it any easier to escape (please not that I support WTZ because I hated bookmarks or sitting staring at a station or gate doing nothing while I'm waiting to get there).

Throw in all the non-game mechanic metagaming like logging off because people are terrified of being on a kill mail and I really don't get the cold, dark, harsh part.
Never lost an expensive, tricked out ship, followed shortly by your implants to a single mistake? If you have and still don't think it's harsh, kudos.

Nilth Ra
Insurgent New Eden Tribe
Systematic-Chaos
Posted - 2008.03.26 00:02:00 - [19]
 

Quote:
3) Local. For goodness sake, you can see your (known) enemies coming from a mile away. Why is this not changed to "Constellation?"

I totally agree. In my opinion this is by far one of the worst aspects of EvE (after lag, of course^^)

Xyn Rhais
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
Posted - 2008.03.26 00:03:00 - [20]
 

You forgot the biggest of them all, clones.
Why the hell do you get to store all your skills in a clone, what kind of carebear game is this ? Or if you die without a clone updated, shouldn't your sp drop to 900000 ?

Better yet, there should be permadeath. That's HARDCORE.

Karyuudo Tydraad
Caldari
State Protectorate
Posted - 2008.03.26 00:14:00 - [21]
 

Just waiting for a more "hardcore" pvp oriented game to come out, tbh. A lot of things such as sec status mechanics, missions, the safe haven of highsec space with it's risk-free money printing, etc etc just don't appeal to me.

Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2008.03.26 00:26:00 - [22]
 

1) If there was a reasonable way to get rid of alts, I would support it. But I'd go further than "1 character per account"; it should be "1 character per player. If you want to discard your character to create a new one, this should be fine, but it's the additional accounts used for scouting, etc, that is the problem.
2) There will always be an "easiest way to make isk". Ratting comes to mind as another very easy way to make isk.
3) Local is what it is. If there was no local, then there would need to be reasonable mechanism for detecting incoming enemies. Note that 'clicking on the directional scanner every few seconds' does not qualify as 'reasonable'. This would need to be something like a continuous, real-time, long-range scanners that showed incoming ships (including ID)within scan distance.
4) Insurance should to be changed to be invalidated by illegal acts (suicide ganking, piracy, etc) -- and possibly acts of war, as well (any losses to a war target). Otherwise, it's a useful mechanic in that it reduces the death penalty for low-end players (to one-third of the cost of the ship instead of the full value) and is effectively phased out for more advanced players (who fly uninsurable T2/faction ships or T1 ships filled with uninsurable T2/faction modules).
5) As you said, WTZ is better than the former BM-based system, and infinitely less tedious than a BM-free system, as well. A well-prepared gate defense should be able to catch anything larger than pods, shuttles, and most frigates -- and small ships should be feasible as scouts, in any case.

Add to your list the laughable implementaion of kill rights for theft or other aggression (15 minutes?! C'mon!) and the inability of law-abiding pilots to go after criminals. There should be mechanisms for meaningful player-based repercussions to criminal acts.

Hasak Rain
Amarr
Posted - 2008.03.26 00:26:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Sereifex Daku
I agree with all of the OP's points.


2) It makes sense to have no level 4s in high sec. They are very hard to do on one's own, so if you are missioning with friends then why fear pirates? If you have skill then you should hardly ever get caught.



How do you figure that they are "very hard to do on one's own?"

Seriously, don't post on things in which you have no clue.

Terail Zoqial
Caldari
Posted - 2008.03.26 00:29:00 - [24]
 

/me bangs head on desk

Gawd, can someone please whine about something new?

They should have called this game whine like a ***** online Rolling Eyes

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.03.26 00:32:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Bklyn 1
I keep seeing words to this effect, but it simply is not so. To prove that it is not, I present the following:
1) Alts. If Eve were a cold, harsh place, there would be no alts. 1 character per account. Live with the results of your actions tough guy.
2) Level 4 missions in high-sec. Is there an easier way to make isk with less effort? If so, please let me know what it is.
3) Local. For goodness sake, you can see your (known) enemies coming from a mile away. Why is this not changed to "Constellation?"
4) Insurance. Explain to me again why this even exists. You won't find a more carebear game mechanic anywhere, (WOW included).
5) Warp to Zero. Can we make it any easier to escape (please not that I support WTZ because I hated bookmarks or sitting staring at a station or gate doing nothing while I'm waiting to get there).

Throw in all the non-game mechanic metagaming like logging off because people are terrified of being on a kill mail and I really don't get the cold, dark, harsh part.


I have lots of ISK, even more assets, 25m SP, lots of friends in game. Oh and bookmarks and cloaking ships.

Fine, go ahead and remove those things....


...I'm sure everyone else will find it as easy to succeed without those things as I did with them.

Hasak Rain
Amarr
Posted - 2008.03.26 00:33:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad
Just waiting for a more "hardcore" pvp oriented game to come out, tbh. A lot of things such as sec status mechanics, missions, the safe haven of highsec space with it's risk-free money printing, etc etc just don't appeal to me.



You will probably be waiting a long time. There is a good reason why games like WoW and less "harsh" games do well and sell tons of subs.

To illustrate my point, I hear that "Pirates of the Burning Seas" can be pretty rough on non-pvpers but after the finding this out, people left in droves and all that is left of the playerbase are the gankers.

I also don't understand why you are so worried about what people are doing in high sec. You sound like a little kid who's next door friend's family got a swimming pool and you are mad and whining because your friend is swimming instead of playing baseball with you.

Sereifex Daku
Firestorm Projects
Capital Storm
Posted - 2008.03.26 00:47:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Hasak Rain

How do you figure that they are "very hard to do on one's own?"

Seriously, don't post on things in which you have no clue.


You may ask me how I have come to this conclusion, but only an arrogant **** would assume that I know little about this. Level 4 missions are somewhat difficult for the majority of players. That is what I have learnt from talking to many players, as well as doing them myself. It is, I assume, because of this that I have encountered a lot of people who do level 4s with others.

So, if you are missioning with others then you shouldn't complain if these missions were to be moved to low sec.

Ulstan
Posted - 2008.03.26 01:22:00 - [28]
 

Alts are practically mandatory.

The alt to check if you're jumping into a station camp
The alt to see what's outside the station since you don't have windows
The alt to put up a cyno field
The alt to check prices in a different region
The alt to do POS logistics
The alt to experience a part of the game your main couldn't experience without 5 more years of training

There are all kinds of ways in which alts are encouraged. Then of course they also do things like let you haul stuff for your pirate chars or scoop loot after a suicide attack.

Ulstan
Posted - 2008.03.26 01:24:00 - [29]
 

Quote:
So, if you are missioning with others then you shouldn't complain if these missions were to be moved to low sec.


That's some ******ed reasoning. Many people don't do 4's with others.

Level 5's are already in low sec and are meant to be done in groups. If you want groups of missioners in low sec ask for those to be boosted.

Benco97
Gallente
Terraprobe Dynamics
Posted - 2008.03.26 01:25:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Ulstan
Alts are practically mandatory.

The alt to check if you're jumping into a station camp
The alt to see what's outside the station since you don't have windows
The alt to put up a cyno field
The alt to check prices in a different region
The alt to do POS logistics
The alt to experience a part of the game your main couldn't experience without 5 more years of training



None of these things need an alt. They just need the player to "man up" and do it alone or get a friend.
All reasons for alts can be boiled down to people wanting things now now now faster faster faster more more more.


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