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Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.03.25 14:54:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Darius Brinn


Don't play stupid. Give your real opinion on the subject, please.

At least I am playing.
I have already given my opinions. You disagreeing with them does not invalidate them - in fact it probably makes them more correct.

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 14:57:00 - [62]
 

Quote:
I'm a very caring person in real life. And many can tell you that I've helped out quite a few players in-game. But, try looking at a few of the threads in GD: "I just lost a hulk and I'm quitting". "We should have PvP flagging". "I'm upset that I lost X, and it's all CCP's fault".


I don't endorse such behaviour. Please notice I just address things that don't make sense to me. This is my main and first character, just come to EVE, and fortunately I still haven't lost anything to a PvPer. I say "still" because it's just a matter of time, of course.

Quote:
Now, I personally feel that insurance should be halved if you gank another player, and one or two reasoned posts about that are fine. But did you miss the threads where people are crying for sympathy and throwing tantrums about what they lost?


I don't hand over sympathy for the weak. But I see a lot of sympathy for the strong, and this doesn't sound right.

Quote:
That's not very classy, and I don't think anyone does particularly care that they decided to invest their emotions so deeply into some pixels. Sure, you invest some, because its a game. But some of these posts are like stomping on the Monopoly (tm) board because you landed on Boardwalk where someone have a couple houses built.


Not mine, I expect. Still, whenever somebody mentions the possible adjustments to balance the whole profit/consequences thing (clearly tilted towards pirate profit), they get called carebears or things like that.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:00:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Darius Brinn
Still, whenever somebody mentions the possible adjustments to balance the whole profit/consequences thing (clearly tilted towards pirate profit), they get called carebears or things like that.

No, that generally happens when people try to off-load personal responsibility on to game mechanic intervention.
Like asking Concord to go after people, rather than other players.

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:01:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Darius Brinn


Don't play stupid. Give your real opinion on the subject, please.

At least I am playing.
I have already given my opinions. You disagreeing with them does not invalidate them - in fact it probably makes them more correct.


Oh, I am playing too. Your stating "there's a SP limit to all ships" or "there's a SP limit to characters already" is hardly an opinion.

There is nothing to invalidate here. It's an obvious, pointless and irrelevant comment to the topic at hand.

"There's already a SP limit". 63 years, or something like that, yes. How am I making this MORE correct, exactly?

I take my words. I won't say don't play stupid.

Please don't BE stupid.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:03:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Darius Brinn

Please don't BE stupid.

Personal attacks are not allowed on the forums, and do nothing to futher the discussion.

Viglen
Gallente
Taurus Inc
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:05:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: mahj
One Question? if all you say is true then why did zombie corp get banned? and within hours of ganking in empire....of course it might be before yr time


Because the used an exploit!

They put a Tanked Apoc with smartbombs on a gate in Yulai,(back when it was on the highway) they then remote repped it with 6-10 other Apoc's, and back then concord knew nothing about the fact that remote repping a criminal was in fact "criminal" Laughing

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:07:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Avon on 25/03/2008 15:07:24
Originally by: Viglen
Originally by: mahj
One Question? if all you say is true then why did zombie corp get banned? and within hours of ganking in empire....of course it might be before yr time


Because the used an exploit!

They put a Tanked Apoc with smartbombs on a gate in Yulai,(back when it was on the highway) they then remote repped it with 6-10 other Apoc's, and back then concord knew nothing about the fact that remote repping a criminal was in fact "criminal" Laughing

No, they were banned for ignoring GM instructions, not for the ganking.

Ikserak tai
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:08:00 - [68]
 

The assumption that miners in Hulks make big Isk for little effort is wrong. Mining is a pain, but is a legitimate way to earn Isk thru effort.

I made Isk much faster by trading, but I wasn't producing anything.

Mining asteroids and turning ore into a commodity is the economic engine that fuels eve. Without this infusion of Isk into the market stagnation would inevitably occur.

Making miners look like cowardly morons awash in Isk is crap. The economy of Eve will feel the changes wrought by Jihadswarm, just as the RL economy feels the pinch due to the rise oil prices. Just wait, these chickens will come home to roost.

You can argue the "cold,dark universe" Eve as long as you want. When the Eve economy has to absorb this inevitable jolt, and if Jihad continues at its current pace, everyone will be paying more and more for everything.

Then we can all spend a hell of a lot more time scrabbling to make Isk, instead of the more fun aspects of the game.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:09:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Ikserak tai
Without this infusion of Isk into the market stagnation would inevitably occur.

Mining does not "infuse" any ISK in to the economy at all - it just serves to move around existing ISK.

Malachon Draco
eXceeded
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:12:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Ikserak tai
The assumption that miners in Hulks make big Isk for little effort is wrong. Mining is a pain, but is a legitimate way to earn Isk thru effort.

I made Isk much faster by trading, but I wasn't producing anything.

Mining asteroids and turning ore into a commodity is the economic engine that fuels eve. Without this infusion of Isk into the market stagnation would inevitably occur.

Making miners look like cowardly morons awash in Isk is crap. The economy of Eve will feel the changes wrought by Jihadswarm, just as the RL economy feels the pinch due to the rise oil prices. Just wait, these chickens will come home to roost.

You can argue the "cold,dark universe" Eve as long as you want. When the Eve economy has to absorb this inevitable jolt, and if Jihad continues at its current pace, everyone will be paying more and more for everything.

Then we can all spend a hell of a lot more time scrabbling to make Isk, instead of the more fun aspects of the game.


Miners are not cowardly morons. They're a vital part of the economy. But you should realize that the same goes for PvPers. Without PvPers you could not function either. Also note that if highsec was perfectly safe, more people would probably be mining, reducing your profits along the way. Suicide gankers help the smart miners to make more isk by killing off the unprepared.

Viglen
Gallente
Taurus Inc
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:15:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Avon
Edited by: Avon on 25/03/2008 15:07:24
Originally by: Viglen
Originally by: mahj
One Question? if all you say is true then why did zombie corp get banned? and within hours of ganking in empire....of course it might be before yr time


Because the used an exploit!

They put a Tanked Apoc with smartbombs on a gate in Yulai,(back when it was on the highway) they then remote repped it with 6-10 other Apoc's, and back then concord knew nothing about the fact that remote repping a criminal was in fact "criminal" Laughing

No, they were banned for ignoring GM instructions, not for the ganking.


well the GM had to ask them to quit because concord wasn't responding to an act that wasn't supposed to be possible in empire!
or,,,,,,,?

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:16:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: Darius Brinn on 25/03/2008 15:18:09
Quote:
No, that generally happens when people try to off-load personal responsibility on to game mechanic intervention.
Like asking Concord to go after people, rather than other players.


Of course, Industrials cannot rely on the police, while pirates DO rely on absurd insurancing policies and ridiculous Security status systems to..,off-load their personal responsibility.

Pirates scream "you haul, you pay the price". and also "We kill, NPC insuring companies pay the price".

Nice. Rants about personal responsibility, from people that get everything in a silver plate.

Esmenet
Gallente
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:17:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Esmenet on 25/03/2008 15:18:19
Originally by: Darius Brinn

Oh, I am playing too. Your stating "there's a SP limit to all ships" or "there's a SP limit to characters already" is hardly an opinion.

There is nothing to invalidate here. It's an obvious, pointless and irrelevant comment to the topic at hand.


Its not an opinion but simple truth.
When you fly for instance a raven with a certain setup there is only a very limited set of skills that will affect your ship. A clear SP limit. It doesnt matter if he also has 10 million skillpoints in using lasers.

If you compare to wow its like in time getting a lvl 70 warrior, hunter, priest etc, but still you can only play one character (ship) at the time.

Rawr Cristina
Caldari
Naqam
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:18:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Darius Brinn
Just cap the max SP a character can have so that everybody has access to the same potential


how the hell will that solve anything? SP dosen't win fights by itself you know. This isn't WoW Confused

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:20:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Darius Brinn

Please don't BE stupid.

Personal attacks are not allowed on the forums, and do nothing to futher the discussion.


I'm not attacking you. I am merely asking you (politely) to refrain from acting inappropiatedly. I am taking an interest in your attitude, that's all. I'll edit it if you want.

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:21:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Darius Brinn
Just cap the max SP a character can have so that everybody has access to the same potential


how the hell will that solve anything? SP dosen't win fights by itself you know. This isn't WoW Confused



It would allow pilots to have the same potential, and newbies to eventually catch up with veterans where it hurts: PvP.

Khanid Kutie
I R Teh Poasting Alt Corp
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:26:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: mahj
One Question? if all you say is true then why did zombie corp get banned? and within hours of ganking in empire....of course it might be before yr time


zombies got banned for TANKING concord. Suiciders arent tanking and surviving concord.

Viglen
Gallente
Taurus Inc
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:27:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Darius Brinn
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Darius Brinn
Just cap the max SP a character can have so that everybody has access to the same potential


how the hell will that solve anything? SP dosen't win fights by itself you know. This isn't WoW Confused



It would allow pilots to have the same potential, and newbies to eventually catch up with veterans where it hurts: PvP.


heh, I lost an Arazu to a 1 year character, just because he had the fitting to counter mine!

I had about 62m sp's back then, so that statement is kinda lame!

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:30:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Darius Brinn

It would allow pilots to have the same potential, and newbies to eventually catch up with veterans where it hurts: PvP.

But they already can.
As has already been pointed out, every ship has a SP cap.

You do understand that, right?

People with more SP's aren't automatically better, they are likey to be more diverse.
Think of them as multi-classed.

Nyabinghi
Minmatar
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:33:00 - [80]
 

Agreed that saying you are gonna quit over a ship loss or threatening to quit is just kinda silly cause it has zero impact on CCP. Now, 5000 players in a block decide to threaten to quit unless CCP address ingame issues, that might work, might. Should a player with a half billion in cargo hire protection, absofreakinlutly! However Goons are not regulating their activities to strictly rich targets. EVE has progressed in so many areas, making players more and more powerful and yet the whole dynamic of CONCORD is still back in the stone age. As I said in another post players should have the ability to enact preventative measures as CONCORD is all about AFTER the criminal act not before.

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:37:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Viglen
Originally by: Darius Brinn
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Darius Brinn
Just cap the max SP a character can have so that everybody has access to the same potential


how the hell will that solve anything? SP dosen't win fights by itself you know. This isn't WoW Confused



It would allow pilots to have the same potential, and newbies to eventually catch up with veterans where it hurts: PvP.


heh, I lost an Arazu to a 1 year character, just because he had the fitting to counter mine!

I had about 62m sp's back then, so that statement is kinda lame!


it is not. Specifical counters and career choices are always effective. Without them, no younger pilot could ever beat an older pilot at anything. However, the current sp system always puts the oomph in older combat pilots. He won't have a specific anti-you fitting always. And those millions of SP count for something in most cases.

Anyway it's not the point. The fact is that pirates, of course, burn when they're put before changes to their easygoing way of life. They want insurance from NPCs, and static NPCs that do nothing while they loot the wreck of their fresh victim.

Again: it IS a design flaw. Want to blow a blaster boar to Concord to gank a non-fighter in Hi-sec? Nice. Do it and have it blown. Not blown and repaid in full. That's just stupid.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:39:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Nyabinghi
As I said in another post players should have the ability to enact preventative measures as CONCORD is all about AFTER the criminal act not before.


They can already do that if they so desire.
When they are ready for that level of gameplay all they have to do is leave hi-sec space.

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:41:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Nyabinghi
Agreed that saying you are gonna quit over a ship loss or threatening to quit is just kinda silly cause it has zero impact on CCP. Now, 5000 players in a block decide to threaten to quit unless CCP address ingame issues, that might work, might. Should a player with a half billion in cargo hire protection, absofreakinlutly! However Goons are not regulating their activities to strictly rich targets. EVE has progressed in so many areas, making players more and more powerful and yet the whole dynamic of CONCORD is still back in the stone age. As I said in another post players should have the ability to enact preventative measures as CONCORD is all about AFTER the criminal act not before.



The problem is that Concord provides half-asses consequences that don't dent their finances, which are protected by other NPC entities. Pirates getting blown against the police and having the ship repaid in full is wrong. Having Concord sitting down while the pirate's hauling alt retrieves the leftovers of the murder is wrong.

Remove insurance on Concord'ed ships. Have Concord target YELLOW WRECK LOOTERS in High security. It's logical, it's what police is supposed to be about. Not let pirates go on their business.

Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:45:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Exlegion on 25/03/2008 15:50:53
Originally by: Darius Brinn
Edited by: Darius Brinn on 25/03/2008 13:32:06
Originally by: Malachon Draco
How about making it more realistic.

1. Attacker doesn't get insurance payout.
2. Unprotected defender (only problem: what is unprotected) doesn't get insurance payout.

Hell, lets combine it in no insurance payout for anyone. Either you are not protected enough, or you are in a warship. And no sane insurance company will insure warships against destruction by enemy forces.

3. Secstatus loss is permanent. No ratting to get it back up.

Now with that we'd be talking serious non-carebear solution for everyone.




Exactly. Pirates want it hard, let's give them HARD. No insurances for anybody. No Security status back. Concord podding them.

Pirates just want it hard for everybody else, and burst into tears at the mere mention of changing their favourable statu quo.

In short: pirates are crying carebears. At the very least, just as much as anybody else. They want to pew-pew undisturbed in an environment tailored for their fun and comfort.


Good post. Unfortunately when pirates ask for a "cold, hard, unforgiving space" they actually mean cold, hard, and unforgiving for carebears. Keep it easy, warm, and fuzzy for the high sec pirates.

The mechanics in place that are supposed to make it hard for a pirate can all be circumvented:

-Bounty system is an utter joke.
-Have too low a sec? Use an alt to do the high sec shopping for you or rat to get it right back up.
-Interested in high sec ganking? No problem. Insure a couple of expendable ships with expendable T1 mods and go have yourself a blast (pun intended). Make some risk-free isk even! Sec gets too low? Rat. Rinse and repeat.
-Low sec sentry guns shoot wet tissue paper.

Not to mention that PVP'ing (if you can even call it that) against mission runners, miners, and indy ships is a total joke as well. But of course, ask a high sec pirate and this does not need change as it is already "oh, so hard enough".

"Cold, hard unforgiving space" is just something for the carebears. Mind you, I don't think that high sec space should be anywhere near safe. But what I am saying is that it shouldn't be anywhere near safe for EVERYBODY, including pirates. There should be real, tangible consequences for engaging in piracy in high sec, not silly slaps in the hand.


Viglen
Gallente
Taurus Inc
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:46:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Darius Brinn
it is not. Specifical counters and career choices are always effective. Without them, no younger pilot could ever beat an older pilot at anything. However, the current sp system always puts the oomph in older combat pilots. He won't have a specific anti-you fitting always. And those millions of SP count for something in most cases.

Anyway it's not the point. The fact is that pirates, of course, burn when they're put before changes to their easygoing way of life. They want insurance from NPCs, and static NPCs that do nothing while they loot the wreck of their fresh victim.

Again: it IS a design flaw. Want to blow a blaster boar to Concord to gank a non-fighter in Hi-sec? Nice. Do it and have it blown. Not blown and repaid in full. That's just stupid.


Repaid in Full!!!!

Which blasterboat is that??

I'm only gonna fly that one from now on!!YARRRR!!

Ikserak tai
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:48:00 - [86]
 

Turning an asteroid into a commodity increases the fluidity of the money supply. The more fluid the supply, the the quicker Isk changes hands, the quicker goods are bought and sold. The more Isk in players hands to spend.

If there is less ore/minerals available, or the minerals are used to build Hulks instead of battleships
prices will rise for those items that have become more scarce.

Maybe the next QEN will address this issue. As the indignity of being suicide ganked (and I can speak from experience) may crank up the whine siren, the effect on the economy of this large-scale economic warfare should manifest itself in the near future.

Then again, this may be just another blip on the radar screen, as I haven't crunched the numbers of a thousand lost Exhumers versus the overall scope of Eve.


Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:49:00 - [87]
 

lol. If it wasn't a statistically insignificant amount of the playerbase ganking a statistically insignificant amount of the minerbase and then an even more insignificant amount of them come to the forums to whine about it then I might say that the views being spat out about the insignificant Goon Jihad might have merit. All these changes being proposed are like asking the Mayor to impliment a state of emergency and locking down the city because a few gangs members stole some fruit off a stand. Rolling Eyes

Buyerr
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:51:00 - [88]
 

so whining about whiners?! ehh..

"cold, uncaring universe"
yer this is true, but in ANY society where there is a need for other people there will be rules and laws and police to enforce this, or the society will crumble...

considering the population of eve (which is very small compared to most other mmo's, especially if you consider the amount of players and not counting alt accounts) maybe there is a time where the angry mobs need to evolve into a society and actually create something more attractive in the area of rules/laws=mechanic and exploits not allowed.

Goran
Posted - 2008.03.25 15:51:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Zeba
asking the Mayor to impliment a state of emergency and locking down the city because a few gangs members stole some fruit off a stand. Rolling Eyes


I'd be declaring a state of emergency if some yob was trying to get their sticky fingers on my juicy plums.

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 16:24:00 - [90]
 

I don't know Goons. I don't care about Goons, or BoB or any fancy names. For me, they're just that...names. I haven't crossed paths with anybody belonging to any of those organizations. To me, they're less important than the guy in the Imicus down the asteroid field I'm mining at. I just picked up the game and they can go to hell holding hands together, for all I care.

But I am all for letting Goons topics die. Why give them more attention?

We're discussing general game mechanics, not Goons behaviour. Let them blow Hulks if they want. Just don't give them insurance money back, or let them rat to get status back. CONSEQUENCES FOR CRIME, not temporary annoyances.


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