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BiggestT
Caldari
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:20:00 - [31]
 

JIIIIIIIIIIIIIHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD SWARM!

THERE IS SOLUTION!

100mill and a letter of apology sent to karttoon, there is hope for the miners

LOL

Ishika
Gallente
The Brownie Bakery
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:22:00 - [32]
 

Ehhh...I've never been suicide ganked (don't even know what it is could someone enlighten me) but i do know that when i did mine i was a cautious bunny. I think that caution, being aware of your enviroment, people in it, and possible threats is much more effective than any nerf or fix that can be implmented.

Basically try to use a little more intelligence.




Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:28:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Darius Brinn on 25/03/2008 12:33:54
Quote:
What part of "cold, uncaring universe" do you not understand?


It's cold and uncaring for some, and extraordinarily lenient towards others. No matter the crime, insurance companies pay in full. Rats get them their reputation back. A successful Indy gank can make up for previous failed attempts.

All the real consequences are suffered by one side. Concord provides consequences, you say. But not the way they should.

-Insurance on Concord'ed ships should be removed.
-Some sec hits should be permanent past a certain threshold.
-At a certain security status, Concord should pod you.
-Salvaging/Looting yellow wrecks in High Security should get Concord on your ass. It IS stealing.

THAT would be consequences. What they have now is a joke. I do like EVE cold and uncaring. But it should be cold and uncaring for everyone. The way it is now, pirates get full insurance payment and rights to steal what they murdered. In the face of the police.

It's essentially wrong. It's a design flaw.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:32:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Darius Brinn
Quote:
What part of "cold, uncaring universe" do you not understand?


It's cold and uncaring for some, and extraordinarily lenient towards others. No matter the crime, insurance companies pay in full.

You're right.
No insurance to the victim unless they can prove that they did everything in their power to mitigate their risk.

No, wait .. that isn't what you are saying, is it?

Inconstant Moon
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:32:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Darius Brinn
-At a certain security status, Concord should pod you.

THAT would be consequences.


Hear hear. Come on law enforcement, shoot to kill! Concord are the biggest carebears of the lot.

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:36:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Darius Brinn
Quote:
What part of "cold, uncaring universe" do you not understand?


It's cold and uncaring for some, and extraordinarily lenient towards others. No matter the crime, insurance companies pay in full.

You're right.
No insurance to the victim unless they can prove that they did everything in their power to mitigate their risk.

No, wait .. that isn't what you are saying, is it?


That logic is flawed and stupid. Crimes null insurances. Except in EVE. And thieves are not allowed to steal in front of the police. Except in EVE. Want piracy in High security? Then you should be facing REAL consequences.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:39:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Darius Brinn

That logic is flawed and stupid. Crimes null insurances. Except in EVE. And thieves are not allowed to steal in front of the police. Except in EVE. Want piracy in High security? Then you should be facing REAL consequences.

So if I leave my car unlocked and the keys in it do you think the insurance company is going to pay up when it gets stolen?
Nope, because I did not take reasonable care to mitigate the risk of loss.

A bit like leaving an untanked Hulk afk at a belt really.

Zenlike Calm
Freelancer Union
Unaffiliated
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:42:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Avon
And?

What should we do?

The solutions must come from expanding existing mechanics, or refining them in a way which is aligned with Eve's core values.

Insurance - bit meh with me, scrap the lot or keep it as is - don't really care which.

Market revenge - Absolutely agree that people should be able to restrict sales as they choose (as mentioned elsewhere)

Civilian defence - I suggested elsewhere ablative shields/armor mods - vastly increase HP, but no ability to repair the extra amount in any way. Make it expensive. Doesn't eliminate suicide ganks, but makes the requirement for participating ships much higher.

I agree with most of what you've said, except for the insurance bit... I think that NPC provision of insurance in EVE is a silly idea, and favour scrapping it entirely - let player corps provide the service if there's a demand for it.

I'd like to see kill rights being tradeable or, alternatively, extended so that anyone in the (player) corp with the person who got killed can exercise them. In the first case it would open up a form of bounty hunting as a viable profession and, in the second, would place even greater emphasis on the importance of being in a player corp and would allow some form of retribution to be meted out. I suspect that the many of those doing the killing would welcome it too, as it should lead to more fights.

I don't see that such a system would in any way compromise EVE's principle that there are consequences for your in-game actions... quite the opposite.

Originally by: Avon
The solutions to perceived problems is not to whine or moan about them, or name calling.
Try a more constructive approach which suggest real improvements to the game, more complexity; not dumbing down or nerfing.

Yeah, that'd be nice. The problem is that there's no good way to communicate ideas and know that they are even being read. CCP's replies in the Features & Ideas Discussion forums are few and far between. This is inevitable, of course, since it would be more than one full time job to acknowledge all the things that get posted in there.

The result is that people just whine instead, or demand outrageous nerfs, which is damned annoying :(

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:42:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Inconstant Moon
Originally by: Darius Brinn
-At a certain security status, Concord should pod you.

THAT would be consequences.


Hear hear. Come on law enforcement, shoot to kill! Concord are the biggest carebears of the lot.


Concord are there to provide a certain feeling of protection. In MMORPGs, people that joined before always have the upper hand. It's not realistic, in the sense that a combat pilot from 2003 is always more skilled than a newbie combat pilot. And no old age will make the newbie top fish. Ever.

So, an area where people can play in a more safe environment is necessary. Because we don't all play with the same cards.

And notice I don't give a **** about people getting ganked or people losing Hulks. It's just EVE. What gets me is pirates defending a lousy game design to justify themselves.

Pirates are morons. Every whine of "change the game" is answered by a stronger whine of "leave it as it is". Of course they want it as it is. It is unbalanced and benefits them, LOL. It's only natural.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:44:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Zenlike Calm

I agree with most of what you've said, except for the insurance bit... I think that NPC provision of insurance in EVE is a silly idea, and favour scrapping it entirely - let player corps provide the service if there's a demand for it.

I said scrap it or leave it.
Personally I'd rather it was scrapped .. or at the very least the 40% default "free" payout removed.

Pretty much in agreement with the rest of your post.

Andrue
Amarr
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:46:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Malbolge
Edited by: Malbolge on 25/03/2008 12:13:16
Edit: response to a deleted post.
Yah, sorry about that :)

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:46:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Darius Brinn

Pirates are morons.

Jeez, what does that make the people who get bested by them?

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:49:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Darius Brinn

That logic is flawed and stupid. Crimes null insurances. Except in EVE. And thieves are not allowed to steal in front of the police. Except in EVE. Want piracy in High security? Then you should be facing REAL consequences.

So if I leave my car unlocked and the keys in it do you think the insurance company is going to pay up when it gets stolen?
Nope, because I did not take reasonable care to mitigate the risk of loss.

A bit like leaving an untanked Hulk afk at a belt really.


LOL of course it pays. At least mine. I am insuring my stuff against crime. Using MY keys to drive MY car without my consent is a crime. And I am insuring against accidents. Losing my keys IS an accident.

Besides, doing "enough to mitigate the risk" is stupid. I don't endorse, approve or engage in risky activities when using a barge. I can face consequences should I get blasted just as if I get mugged in real life. But I expect that others face the consequences too.

Can you imagine a madman ramming a car against a police station, killing me who was inside, and then thinking that the madman's friend can take my wallet unmolested in the presence of the officers? Can you imagine the insurance company paying for the madman's car? Can you imagine the madman erasing his police file by stabbing other maniacs?

All this nonsense is also in EVE. It's a DESIGN FLAW. Unrealistic, and unbalanced. Consequences, yes. For ALL.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:52:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Darius Brinn
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Darius Brinn

That logic is flawed and stupid. Crimes null insurances. Except in EVE. And thieves are not allowed to steal in front of the police. Except in EVE. Want piracy in High security? Then you should be facing REAL consequences.

So if I leave my car unlocked and the keys in it do you think the insurance company is going to pay up when it gets stolen?
Nope, because I did not take reasonable care to mitigate the risk of loss.

A bit like leaving an untanked Hulk afk at a belt really.


LOL of course it pays. At least mine. I am insuring my stuff against crime. Using MY keys to drive MY car without my consent is a crime. And I am insuring against accidents. Losing my keys IS an accident.

Besides, doing "enough to mitigate the risk" is stupid. I don't endorse, approve or engage in risky activities when using a barge. I can face consequences should I get blasted just as if I get mugged in real life. But I expect that others face the consequences too.

Can you imagine a madman ramming a car against a police station, killing me who was inside, and then thinking that the madman's friend can take my wallet unmolested in the presence of the officers? Can you imagine the insurance company paying for the madman's car? Can you imagine the madman erasing his police file by stabbing other maniacs?

All this nonsense is also in EVE. It's a DESIGN FLAW. Unrealistic, and unbalanced. Consequences, yes. For ALL.



It's CCP's specific intent that non-consensual combat be a possibility in every area of every system in EvE.

Your real complaint is that dopey hulk miners are making it so easy to gank them that the consequences (loss of ship & fittings, sec status hit) are small.

That's not CCP's fault.

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:55:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Darius Brinn

Pirates are morons.

Jeez, what does that make the people who get bested by them?


Bested? You must mean overpowered. You can be a beefy asskicker and still be a helpless moron.

Pirates brag about avoiding fair fights and, honestly, ganking a Mining barge or a paper-thin indy from Empire players hardly sounds like "besting".

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:58:00 - [46]
 

Quote:
It's CCP's specific intent that non-consensual combat be a possibility in every area of every system in EvE.

Your real complaint is that dopey hulk miners are making it so easy to gank them that the consequences (loss of ship & fittings, sec status hit) are small.

That's not CCP's fault.

CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.


Oh yes. Non consensual combat is fine. I can get blasted and you won't hear me complaining. It's the fact that the consequences that Concord provide are patheticly low compared to the advantages and possibilities of ganking other players.

Nobody asked for increased security or a change of policy. Only more consistent and realistic consequences for recurring criminals from the "authotities" were requested. It's pretty much logical and necessary.

Victor Forge
Amarr
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:59:00 - [47]
 

EvE online is to pretty big part inspired by the old game Elite 2, a best seller back then. And players that was attracted to that game will get pleasantly surpriced when they find out about the mining, trading and missioning in EvE. Not to say a much greater selection of ships available.

It is impossible to say how many of these players make up EvE population, but the point is that Elite 2 was a pure pve-game and there are lots of players that is perfectly happy with no pvp. Force pvp on them or force them out in low-sec why shall they continue to play?

It is wasnīt pvp that attracted them. And if the other parts that did attract them gets destroyed because of forced pvp, how can they justify continue to pay money if it isnīt fun anymore? After all it is just a game.

So the question is do CCP want customers that donīt do pvp? Is the pvpers money so much more worth it, that EvE online can afford a smaller player base?

And is 0.0 and low-sec too small, since pvpers even wants to pvp in high-sec? Wink




Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.03.25 13:08:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Darius Brinn

All this nonsense is also in EVE. It's a DESIGN FLAW. Unrealistic, and unbalanced. Consequences, yes. For ALL.


But that is what we have.
Gankers lose their ship, they get insurance.
Victims lose their ship, they get insurance.

Gankers also get a security status penalty, a criminal flag, and killrights handed to their victim.

Seems fair.

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 13:11:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Victor Forge
EvE online is to pretty big part inspired by the old game Elite 2, a best seller back then. And players that was attracted to that game will get pleasantly surpriced when they find out about the mining, trading and missioning in EvE. Not to say a much greater selection of ships available.

It is impossible to say how many of these players make up EvE population, but the point is that Elite 2 was a pure pve-game and there are lots of players that is perfectly happy with no pvp. Force pvp on them or force them out in low-sec why shall they continue to play?

It is wasnīt pvp that attracted them. And if the other parts that did attract them gets destroyed because of forced pvp, how can they justify continue to pay money if it isnīt fun anymore? After all it is just a game.

So the question is do CCP want customers that donīt do pvp? Is the pvpers money so much more worth it, that EvE online can afford a smaller player base?

And is 0.0 and low-sec too small, since pvpers even wants to pvp in high-sec? Wink




I won't delve into the forced PvP conditions. I just arrived to EVE and like it as it is, cold and harsh. It's just that coldness and harshness have to be tweaked to be equally handed over, that's all.

Criminals in 0.0 rule. Criminals in Low sec rule. Criminals in High sec get a slap on the wrist, and if they don't manage to kill the Hulk, they still get their Premium repayment for their Brutix.

Sounds wrong. Insurance companies treat pirates like helpless crybabies, even recurring offenders. Police forces hold no permament grudge or record on multiple, recurring assassins/looters. It's WRONG.

If you want, let's just eliminate Concord and Security classification. Just cap the max SP a character can have so that everybody has access to the same potential, and bring on the ganking...if you can.

Oh, wait. No, that's not what you want. You want 0.0, Low sec and also special treatment in High Sec, with insurance companies treating you like 1st class customers and Concord treating you like 1st class citizens.

Pirates always loudmouth about consequences and being a free world. But in fact they are handled like sissy princesses. They demand (and get) special treatment.

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 13:13:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Darius Brinn

All this nonsense is also in EVE. It's a DESIGN FLAW. Unrealistic, and unbalanced. Consequences, yes. For ALL.


But that is what we have.
Gankers lose their ship, they get insurance.
Victims lose their ship, they get insurance.

Gankers also get a security status penalty, a criminal flag, and killrights handed to their victim.

Seems fair.


When you lose an indy, it's the ship itself what's worrying you. Yeah. Sigh...

And penalties are TOO EASILY reverted. Something should stuck. The idea here is that whatever the atrocities, you can always get the police to love you and allow you to kill again.

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.03.25 13:16:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Darius Brinn
Originally by: Victor Forge
EvE online is to pretty big part inspired by the old game Elite 2, a best seller back then. And players that was attracted to that game will get pleasantly surpriced when they find out about the mining, trading and missioning in EvE. Not to say a much greater selection of ships available.

It is impossible to say how many of these players make up EvE population, but the point is that Elite 2 was a pure pve-game and there are lots of players that is perfectly happy with no pvp. Force pvp on them or force them out in low-sec why shall they continue to play?

It is wasnīt pvp that attracted them. And if the other parts that did attract them gets destroyed because of forced pvp, how can they justify continue to pay money if it isnīt fun anymore? After all it is just a game.

So the question is do CCP want customers that donīt do pvp? Is the pvpers money so much more worth it, that EvE online can afford a smaller player base?

And is 0.0 and low-sec too small, since pvpers even wants to pvp in high-sec? Wink




I won't delve into the forced PvP conditions. I just arrived to EVE and like it as it is, cold and harsh. It's just that coldness and harshness have to be tweaked to be equally handed over, that's all.

Criminals in 0.0 rule. Criminals in Low sec rule. Criminals in High sec get a slap on the wrist, and if they don't manage to kill the Hulk, they still get their Premium repayment for their Brutix.

Sounds wrong. Insurance companies treat pirates like helpless crybabies, even recurring offenders. Police forces hold no permament grudge or record on multiple, recurring assassins/looters. It's WRONG.

If you want, let's just eliminate Concord and Security classification. Just cap the max SP a character can have so that everybody has access to the same potential, and bring on the ganking...if you can.

Oh, wait. No, that's not what you want. You want 0.0, Low sec and also special treatment in High Sec, with insurance companies treating you like 1st class customers and Concord treating you like 1st class citizens.

Pirates always loudmouth about consequences and being a free world. But in fact they are handled like sissy princesses. They demand (and get) special treatment.


You're quite correct. You're right. PvPers want there to be the possibility PvP in every part of every system in EvE. We will stop at nothing to achieve this!

HAH! I just sent a crack team of griefers back to 10 years in the past! They will eliminate the original CCP devs, those fools who were devoted to flowers and unicorns and being nice to each other all the time, and assume their identities. They will completely change the founding principle of EvE to include non-consensual PvP EVERYWHERE!

It's done! Now EvE is all about non consensual PvP in 0.0, lo-sec AND hi-sec. My evil scheme has succeeded!!!!!




...oh wait, god dambit. They forgot the ****ing spacewhales.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.03.25 13:20:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Darius Brinn
Just cap the max SP a character can have so that everybody has access to the same potential, and bring on the ganking...if you can.

Every single ship in game already has a SP cap.

Malachon Draco
eXceeded
Posted - 2008.03.25 13:27:00 - [53]
 

How about making it more realistic.

1. Attacker doesn't get insurance payout.
2. Unprotected defender (only problem: what is unprotected) doesn't get insurance payout.

Hell, lets combine it in no insurance payout for anyone. Either you are not protected enough, or you are in a warship. And no sane insurance company will insure warships against destruction by enemy forces.

3. Secstatus loss is permanent. No ratting to get it back up.

Now with that we'd be talking serious non-carebear solution for everyone.


Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 13:28:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Darius Brinn
Just cap the max SP a character can have so that everybody has access to the same potential, and bring on the ganking...if you can.

Every single ship in game already has a SP cap.


That's ridiculous. I meant a REAL character SP limit. A limit that all characters can reach with time.

Pirates go on PvP their way, and Industrials/Miners have to take it. What good is the Killrights system? It's not as if I could find, and much less eliminate, any pirates that bugger me. I COULD sell the killrights for a good, solid headhunting operation. But no, wait. Mercs I hire would take the hit. I have to screw my training and go into combat pilot to be able to do anything at all.

It's a matter of UNBALANCE.

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 13:31:00 - [55]
 

Edited by: Darius Brinn on 25/03/2008 13:32:06
Originally by: Malachon Draco
How about making it more realistic.

1. Attacker doesn't get insurance payout.
2. Unprotected defender (only problem: what is unprotected) doesn't get insurance payout.

Hell, lets combine it in no insurance payout for anyone. Either you are not protected enough, or you are in a warship. And no sane insurance company will insure warships against destruction by enemy forces.

3. Secstatus loss is permanent. No ratting to get it back up.

Now with that we'd be talking serious non-carebear solution for everyone.




Exactly. Pirates want it hard, let's give them HARD. No insurances for anybody. No Security status back. Concord podding them.

Pirates just want it hard for everybody else, and burst into tears at the mere mention of changing their favourable statu quo.

In short: pirates are crying carebears. At the very least, just as much as anybody else. They want to pew-pew undisturbed in an environment tailored for their fun and comfort.

Avon
Caldari
Versatech Co.
Raiden.
Posted - 2008.03.25 14:16:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Darius Brinn
Originally by: Avon

Every single ship in game already has a SP cap.


That's ridiculous. I meant a REAL character SP limit. A limit that all characters can reach with time.

Technically that exists too.
It is a long time though Razz

Nyabinghi
Minmatar
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
Posted - 2008.03.25 14:40:00 - [57]
 

It appears, according to the OP, that EVE is a game meant to be played by cold, uncaring people. Wow, amazing that people would spend their recreational time and money in a virtual world that is cold and uncaring. You definitely paint a very bleak picture of EVE and it's player base. Rolling Eyes



Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 14:47:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Darius Brinn
Originally by: Avon

Every single ship in game already has a SP cap.


That's ridiculous. I meant a REAL character SP limit. A limit that all characters can reach with time.

Technically that exists too.
It is a long time though Razz



Don't play stupid. Give your real opinion on the subject, please.

Vikarion
Caldari
State Trade Consortium
Posted - 2008.03.25 14:52:00 - [59]
 

Edited by: Vikarion on 25/03/2008 14:52:53
Originally by: Nyabinghi
It appears, according to the OP, that EVE is a game meant to be played by cold, uncaring people. Wow, amazing that people would spend their recreational time and money in a virtual world that is cold and uncaring. You definitely paint a very bleak picture of EVE and it's player base. Rolling Eyes



I'm a very caring person in real life. And many can tell you that I've helped out quite a few players in-game. But, try looking at a few of the threads in GD: "I just lost a hulk and I'm quitting". "We should have PvP flagging". "I'm upset that I lost X, and it's all CCP's fault".

Now, I personally feel that insurance should be halved if you gank another player, and one or two reasoned posts about that are fine. But did you miss the threads where people are crying for sympathy and throwing tantrums about what they lost?

That's not very classy, and I don't think anyone does particularly care that they decided to invest their emotions so deeply into some pixels. Sure, you invest some, because its a game. But some of these posts are like stomping on the Monopoly (tm) board because you landed on Boardwalk where someone have a couple houses built.

Darius Brinn
Iberians
Posted - 2008.03.25 14:53:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Nyabinghi
It appears, according to the OP, that EVE is a game meant to be played by cold, uncaring people. Wow, amazing that people would spend their recreational time and money in a virtual world that is cold and uncaring. You definitely paint a very bleak picture of EVE and it's player base. Rolling Eyes




It's actually very simple. Gankers have it easy. The ganked cannot fight back because they're not combat pilots, or are inexperienced, or simply don't have the economical means.

Fair enough. No Hello Kitty online crap.

BUT...why does an insurance company compensates known criminals,,,repeatedly? Why does the police allow anybody to steal a wreck & cargobay? Why does a bit of ratting make up for multiple assassinations?

It just doesn't make sense. Some people would like slight tweakings of the way pirates are treated. Because honestly, they're treated far too lightly. They grab a few gankboats, scan a loaded indy, kill it, recover their loses with Premium insurance and go loot the indy completely undisturbed. The police leaves them alone, and the hauler that got the shaft cannot even comission a contract killing because killers would get hit and it's not worth it.

Bounty system is a joke. Insurance payouts for Concord'ed ships are a joke. Looting yellow wrecks in Empire is a joke.

They should be changed.


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