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blankseplocked Why the Trinity Engine shouldn't have released unfinished. *Sign me*
 
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Vrenth
Gallente
The Program
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2008.03.23 22:45:00 - [1]
 

Don't get me wrong, the idea of the trinity engine was exactly the graphical face lift that Eve needed. However, it is missing THE single most important element that Eve is lacking, and that is special effects. This is a small list of things that the Trinity engine should not have even been thought to release without including, judging as the engine did not improve performance at all.

1. Hit/miss detection for turrets, as well as random firing locations (instead of the guns/beams hitting the same spot 15 times in a row.) Currently, our ships NEVER visually miss their targets, this is a very lazy implementation and is frustrating to people who look at the game rather than our GUI.

2. Hit effects for shield/armor. With the above implemented, you could after that add a visual display for our shields outside of the occasional shield boost/hardener activation. This should be easy to get an idea of, just look at any other space simulator /RTS /RPG ever made. As for armor, you wouldn't have to change much, but a damage decal would be easy to pull off if you added hit detection.

3. Physics beyond 2nd grade level. This is not as important as any of the rest, and can always cause lag if done server side. The idea of "bouncing" is just silly. If your going to have ship collision, do it right or just make us clip through ships/objects. I'm tired of seeing capital ships killed because they are being bounced out of alignment or bounced off an undock point by a ship that is 1/20th the size. If this was to happen in reality, the ship would simply explode and the shields would take nominal amount of damage. Instead, it is being exploited as a weapon.. bad.

4. Effects, effects, effects. I know you have stated that effects is something you are in the works on, but no clarification or information has been released. The current particle system may be pretty, but it's a lag fest and a disaster. Every particle effect I have ever seen is sprite based. When you rotate your camera or change the cameras position, you will be seeing the same angle of the effect as before. This is also frustrating to next-gen gamers.

Lasers look great, but the other weapon systems need some work. An actual object/projectile for hybrid turrets would be fantastic. As it stands, it is an animation, and the charge will always take the same amount of time to get from point A to point B. It will stretch or squash depending on how far the target is from you. Auto-cannons and artillery could use a huge facelift, as they have no visual bullets. Adding a single bolt firing from artillery would be nice, and a stream of smaller bolts firing from auto-cannons would be great looking.

Missiles are decent, but also suffer from a few key problems right now. One of them being the method of launching from the ship. Currently, they launch from the ship's center point. Adding visual turret hard points or even modeling turret bays on all missile capable ships would fix this problem. Just make them launch from the hardpoint as apposed to the ship itself. As for the missiles themselves, some of them are very poor looking. The majority of the time, a missile looks like a ball of light. This should be true if your looking at the back of a guided missile, but it would be much more immersive if this was toned down a large ammount. Missiles could also use a visual streamer, such as smoke or a colored engine stream (much like ships).

5. Drones: Drones, as of now, don't exist. What we have is a cluster of boxes on our screen. Currently, drones size and bad level of detail coding prevents us from seeing them at all. The only visual representative of drones we have are targeting boxes. This could be easily corrected by making drones a tad larger and making their thruster trail visible at long ranges.

Thats it. In conclusion, I think all of these effects would make battles look MUCH more immersive, which is the most important aspect of eve, in my opinion. Please let me know what you think. Very Happy

Vrenth
Gallente
The Program
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2008.03.23 22:47:00 - [2]
 

Reserved .

Commoner
Caldari
The Tuskers
Posted - 2008.03.23 23:53:00 - [3]
 

I wholehartedly agree. As always make everything optional, so that at ULTRA LOW detail no such things will be shown.

Sirial Soulfly
Posted - 2008.03.24 03:50:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Sirial Soulfly on 24/03/2008 03:50:36
You forgot about planets and moons and backgrounds/sky boxes.

And lots more diverse station interiors.

KIAEnIgMa
Caldari
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.24 11:07:00 - [5]
 

i think youll find trinity engine updates including planets special effects and so on are being released in stages, ships was just the first stage more will come with time

Arana Tellen
Gallente
Clan Death Corps
Posted - 2008.03.24 12:20:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Vrenth
stuff


1. Destiny covers this (the physics engine) not trinity.

2. Maybe to your own ship only. However most people dont have HD3870/8800 class cards so there would have been even more complaints...

3. Again destiny (ask for an update to this)

4. This is the next stage of trinity, be patient, the current models was a cool upgrade and I think it is right to release in stages.

5. I can zoom in on drones and they were upgraded in trinity.

Norjia Blacksteel
Gallente
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing
Renaissance Federation
Posted - 2008.03.24 18:14:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Vrenth
3. Physics beyond 2nd grade level. This is not as important as any of the rest, and can always cause lag if done server side. The idea of "bouncing" is just silly. If your going to have ship collision, do it right or just make us clip through ships/objects. I'm tired of seeing capital ships killed because they are being bounced out of alignment or bounced off an undock point by a ship that is 1/20th the size. If this was to happen in reality, the ship would simply explode and the shields would take nominal amount of damage.


So you have a spaceship with a real shield to bounce another ship with a shield from to verify this would happen "in reality?" It's Sci-fi, dude. Most of what's in this game is completely impractical anyway, like warp drives that don't use an economically signifigant amount of fuel.

I won't disagree that bumping is not great as a play mechanic. But at least don't try to use realism as an argument against it.

Originally by: Procurer Fennika
/sign /remove stackless python 2.5.1 and put C++


Are you serious?!? Change the language it's written in? Shocked

Vagel
Posted - 2008.03.24 18:52:00 - [8]
 

You dont need a real spaceship to get real physics to work.

An example of where physics were ignored was Starwars(yes... you can hear the spaceships fire their blasters here - the spaceships react like airplanes when they turn ect.)
But, there have allso been examples of SiFi where the laws of physics were implemented, like Babylon V.
In that series, the spaceships turned and acted in space as they should - not as a secondrated airplane.

What the OP is asking for is real like physics in regard to Impulse - initia. That is pretty straightforward and simple. Of cause ftl drives needs to be purely fictional, since we havent invented those yet..

Vrenth
Gallente
The Program
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2008.03.24 19:35:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Vrenth on 24/03/2008 19:39:40
Originally by: Arana Tellen
Originally by: Vrenth
stuff


1. Destiny covers this (the physics engine) not trinity.

2. Maybe to your own ship only. However most people dont have HD3870/8800 class cards so there would have been even more complaints...

3. Again destiny (ask for an update to this)

4. This is the next stage of trinity, be patient, the current models was a cool upgrade and I think it is right to release in stages.

5. I can zoom in on drones and they were upgraded in trinity.


I haven't heard a thing about the destiny update, perhaps some linkage would be excellent. Also you seem to have missed a few points of my thread. I'm talking about things that Eve needs SOON to cover itself from future game releases. I won't mention any titles in specific, but there are a few games coming out in the coming months that will give Eve REAL competition. In order to hold people that aren't avid Eve players, they will need to polish the game and remove peoples quarks. To most people out there (almost everyone I have ever sat down and talked about), "an immersive and engaging game" is more important than fixing a few bugs, nerfing something, or even adding new features. Trinity was a huge step forward, but it still didn't completely cut it. Honestly, I think most would have rather had these other things happen first and had trinity pushed back. I won't be upset if we don't have a new expansion every 6 months... we don't pay for them.

Additionally, about drones. I know you can zoom in on a drone, but that is a different story. There are several games out that will allow hundreds of tiny fighter sized ships to be effected by LOD, and still be able to see them (Via engine trail or thruster effects ect.) I'm talking about drones turning into a pixel when you get more than 1km away from them. This is not huge, it's just bad coding. Drones are not THAT small... A small scout drone should be larger than a small turret, ect. That is technically what they are, a gun mounted on an engine with an antenna on it. Even with LOD off, drones are STILL effected by LOD. They turn into pixels, only visible by their targeting indicator.

Also coming to another main point, I can't see the drone's firing. When I see a battle in eve, I want to see cannon fire everywhere. I want to see bullets, lasers, and missiles flying everywhere. Chaos. Right now, you can only tell a battle is going on in eve if you have sound turned on (90% of people who play eve don't know the game has sound) or a ship explodes. Where is the cannon fire? That is the majority of what I meant about revamping turret effects.

Keisern
Posted - 2008.03.25 00:13:00 - [10]
 

Signed.

Vanessa Vale
Posted - 2008.03.25 00:22:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Vrenth

Also coming to another main point, I can't see the drone's firing. When I see a battle in eve, I want to see cannon fire everywhere. I want to see bullets, lasers, and missiles flying everywhere. Chaos. Right now, you can only tell a battle is going on in eve if you have sound turned on (90% of people who play eve don't know the game has sound) or a ship explodes. Where is the cannon fire? That is the majority of what I meant about revamping turret effects.

Judging from the performance of the client this would probably require a computer capable of running crysis 3 on mega ultra super duper high. Laughing

El Mauru
Amarr
Interwebs Cooter Explosion
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2008.03.25 01:43:00 - [12]
 

I was originally going to bash you in some weird way for the title, but I'd looove to see what you listed put in :-/

So you get a mild bashing for the title and a /signed for the rest ;-)

Norjia Blacksteel
Gallente
Blacksteel Mining and Manufacturing
Renaissance Federation
Posted - 2008.03.25 03:15:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Vagel
You dont need a real spaceship to get real physics to work.

An example of where physics were ignored was Starwars(yes... you can hear the spaceships fire their blasters here - the spaceships react like airplanes when they turn ect.)
But, there have allso been examples of SiFi where the laws of physics were implemented, like Babylon V.
In that series, the spaceships turned and acted in space as they should - not as a secondrated airplane.

What the OP is asking for is real like physics in regard to Impulse - initia. That is pretty straightforward and simple. Of cause ftl drives needs to be purely fictional, since we havent invented those yet..



I'll just take my degree in physics and leave this thread now before someone gets hurt.

Vrenth
Gallente
The Program
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2008.03.25 05:30:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Vanessa Vale
Originally by: Vrenth

Also coming to another main point, I can't see the drone's firing. When I see a battle in eve, I want to see cannon fire everywhere. I want to see bullets, lasers, and missiles flying everywhere. Chaos. Right now, you can only tell a battle is going on in eve if you have sound turned on (90% of people who play eve don't know the game has sound) or a ship explodes. Where is the cannon fire? That is the majority of what I meant about revamping turret effects.

Judging from the performance of the client this would probably require a computer capable of running crysis 3 on mega ultra super duper high. Laughing


If that were true, this would be the most horribly designed graphics engine in existence, and they should scrap the whole thing. If you have ever played any other space RTS/SIM, you would know that there are tons out there that do this just fine. X3 Reunion can have tons and tons of smaller ships on the screen that look a hell of alot better than a single white pixel, and suffer almost no performance hit at all. Don't give me any "but that's not an MMO" mumbo jumbo. Network code has no bearing on FPS, nor level of detailing. Dynamic level of detailing IS the best method of portraying large/small ships.

Himura Keiko
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:04:00 - [15]
 

Signed.

Sleepkevert
Amarr
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
Posted - 2008.03.25 12:10:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Arana Tellen
4. This is the next stage of trinity, be patient, the current models was a cool upgrade and I think it is right to release in stages.
/signed on this!

Everybody keeps whining about more and more and more, be glad that you got updated models which look awesome Very Happy. I agree that the full picture needs some serious work, but they are on that, they haven' t forgot, and let's just wait for the next improvement patch, kay?

Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
Eclats de verre
Posted - 2008.03.25 13:07:00 - [17]
 

I agree with the points you raise, not with your thread title.


If they made all the stuff needed for trinity, we would have had it... In two years?
Seriously, that would suck badly. So, we have new ship models (cool), new stations&stargates (it was sooo much needed!), some new other stuff that looks good. I've been waiting for this since they talked of making a new graphic engine. Playing on the old graphic engine, blocking developpement of some new things because of the old graphic engine would have been crap.

So, yes it has been released unfinished and that is what they announced, they pointed all the new things and didn't say they made all new on everything.

I hope the art team is still working hard on special effects, planets, random objects we encounter. And we would be very happy to see some clips or screenshots to keep us waiting!

ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.25 14:47:00 - [18]
 

With today's hardware, I fail to see how drawing a bunch of coloured squares (while zoomed out ofc) in a mostly static background and having such poor performance (fps-wise) is considered having a "spiffy" graphics engine.

Clipping doesn't work, or what? (assume effects and all that off ofcourse0

Even at max detail, it shouldn't draw anything and just be a glorified space "Pong" but yeah, maybe it's time you guys licensed someone elses graphics engine.Wink

Mykuhl
Posted - 2008.03.26 14:27:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Mykuhl on 26/03/2008 14:29:25
Originally by: ElCoCo
With today's hardware, I fail to see how drawing a bunch of coloured squares (while zoomed out ofc) in a mostly static background and having such poor performance (fps-wise) is considered having a "spiffy" graphics engine.

Clipping doesn't work, or what? (assume effects and all that off ofcourse0

Even at max detail, it shouldn't draw anything and just be a glorified space "Pong" but yeah, maybe it's time you guys licensed someone elses graphics engine.Wink


I think your more after LOD system(level of detail) rather then clipping as on a space game clipping makes very little difference (few objets to hide behind)
About the only thing that getts clipped is the other side of the spacecraft.

You may also find that the graphics engine tends to wait on the network layer too much as well, but of course if you dont have accurate positioning of all objects you get desync issues.

d3vo
Posted - 2008.03.28 00:38:00 - [20]
 

/signed
/signed
/signed
/signed
/signed

Urbanos Polenta
Posted - 2008.03.28 02:06:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Urbanos Polenta on 28/03/2008 02:06:06
Originally by: Norjia Blacksteel
[So you have a spaceship with a real shield to bounce another ship with a shield from to verify this would happen "in reality?" It's Sci-fi, dude. Most of what's in this game is completely impractical anyway, like warp drives that don't use an economically signifigant amount of fuel.



So you think that Warp Drives that use consistent amounts of fuel is practical in reality?

Surprised Ducks for cover

Heddy Lammar
Posted - 2008.03.28 17:54:00 - [22]
 

Wow, all that rant, maybe you should read a bit before ranting, turns out CCP made it clear that this was the first of many graphical updates, ships first then, effects, planets, etc etc etc.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2008.03.28 19:56:00 - [23]
 

The rendering engine doesn't handle some of the things you're talking about here, but you have a case with effects and other visuals.

Although CCP did make it clear it was only going to be ships and stations this time around, the strength of Trinity took a huge blow by having such pretty things in such a familiar and bland environment. And it sucks the effects/environments are unlikely to come before the next major expansion, cause Trinity 1.1 has come and gone and we've heard nothing since Trinity's release.

Unfortunately, all the mission doodads probably make the job of remodeling everything comparable in difficulty.

Arana Tellen
Gallente
Clan Death Corps
Posted - 2008.03.29 00:56:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Vrenth
Originally by: Vanessa Vale
Originally by: Vrenth

Also coming to another main point, I can't see the drone's firing. When I see a battle in eve, I want to see cannon fire everywhere. I want to see bullets, lasers, and missiles flying everywhere. Chaos. Right now, you can only tell a battle is going on in eve if you have sound turned on (90% of people who play eve don't know the game has sound) or a ship explodes. Where is the cannon fire? That is the majority of what I meant about revamping turret effects.

Judging from the performance of the client this would probably require a computer capable of running crysis 3 on mega ultra super duper high. Laughing


If that were true, this would be the most horribly designed graphics engine in existence, and they should scrap the whole thing. If you have ever played any other space RTS/SIM, you would know that there are tons out there that do this just fine. X3 Reunion can have tons and tons of smaller ships on the screen that look a hell of alot better than a single white pixel, and suffer almost no performance hit at all. Don't give me any "but that's not an MMO" mumbo jumbo. Network code has no bearing on FPS, nor level of detailing. Dynamic level of detailing IS the best method of portraying large/small ships.


So you want data on every ships strike, if it hits or how much it misses by? That is a big net code performance hog.

Vrenth
Gallente
The Program
Controlled Chaos
Posted - 2008.03.29 21:35:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Arana Tellen
Originally by: Vrenth
Originally by: Vanessa Vale
Originally by: Vrenth

Also coming to another main point, I can't see the drone's firing. When I see a battle in eve, I want to see cannon fire everywhere. I want to see bullets, lasers, and missiles flying everywhere. Chaos. Right now, you can only tell a battle is going on in eve if you have sound turned on (90% of people who play eve don't know the game has sound) or a ship explodes. Where is the cannon fire? That is the majority of what I meant about revamping turret effects.

Judging from the performance of the client this would probably require a computer capable of running crysis 3 on mega ultra super duper high. Laughing


If that were true, this would be the most horribly designed graphics engine in existence, and they should scrap the whole thing. If you have ever played any other space RTS/SIM, you would know that there are tons out there that do this just fine. X3 Reunion can have tons and tons of smaller ships on the screen that look a hell of alot better than a single white pixel, and suffer almost no performance hit at all. Don't give me any "but that's not an MMO" mumbo jumbo. Network code has no bearing on FPS, nor level of detailing. Dynamic level of detailing IS the best method of portraying large/small ships.


So you want data on every ships strike, if it hits or how much it misses by? That is a big net code performance hog.


That is NOT net code. That is all client side, or to put simply; an animation. The server doesn't need to know where it hit, nor does the animation have to be the same on everyone's client. Think before posting.


 

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