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Rach NiKunni
Royal Enterprise
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2008.03.19 18:01:00 - [1]
 

Two things happened yesterday that illustrate what I think is a trend in low-sec gang fighting:

First was a little raid we made into a system where the local pirates usually gate camp. We went in with two interceptors and two stealth bombers and ran up to the gate. Most of their fleet (because these particular pirates are incredibly ballsy)scrambled and docked but we isolated a megathron and started in on it. We played cat and mouse with him for a bit and had him in the bottom 3rd of his armor when the *blob* showed up. They threw at least 10 large ships, most of which were T1 and T2 battlecruisers or or battleships from what I saw at us and broke it up and we had to run. Up until that point everyone was having a real chuckle about it and although the meg pilot was in a bit of trouble they could have saved him with couple of ecm frigs to shut down the interceptors. I mean, where is the finesse (or the fun?) in blobbing like this?

A little later a newbie player who I've been watching over convo'd me. He was being station camped (I think in a noob ship) by a Slepnir, an Abaddon, an Onyx and a Meg, as rediculous as this sounds.... They had him trapped in there for more than an hour and he really wanted out (they had already popped and podded him 3 times and he had the bad luck that his clone was at this station). So instead of just telling him how to get away we decided to have some fun with it and got a fleet together and went to break it up. When the fighting started the Abaddon and Onyx docked, the Slepnir stood his ground and before we could take down the Megathron they dumped a carrier, a falcon and two other large ships along with the Abaddon and Onyx (or maybe 2 it was getting pretty busy on my overview) back on us. We were in a Harbinger, a Drake a Raven and a Geddon.... I mean....really. We were already outgunned from the start and we were willing to give it all up for the giggles (and the meg kill) but they *still* wouldn't stand and fight us.... As it turned out we were lucky to get away with only one loss. (on the up side our newbie guy got out.... Very Happy)

Are people really *so* afraid of losing a ship that they will go to these extremes to avoid it?

Is it just me or is everyone seeing more and more of this kind of thing? Do people lack a basic understanding of their ship's capabilities? Do they lack any kind of lateral thinking or creative finesse? are they lacking a sense of humor? are they broke? are they even aware that they're playing a game?

My question is to the people who do this kind of thing: Why?

Jack Brazen
Universal Securities
Posted - 2008.03.19 18:16:00 - [2]
 

That makes very little sense to me - do WHAT exactly? Respond with force to an unknown opponent? I'd say that makes a whole lot of sense. I'd do the same - bring whatever I can when I don't know the total numbers and ship-types my opponent is bringing.

I don't see what is so puzzling about this to you. Sounds more like you are trying to pretend it is puzzling, because you are annoyed that you couldn't bring appropriate numbers and ships yourself.

Calypso's Wrath
Mad Bombers
Guns and Alcohol
Posted - 2008.03.19 18:18:00 - [3]
 

A Slepnir, an Abaddon, an Onyx and a Meg, a carrier, a falcon and two other large ships.


Just a question..where EXACTLY was this? YARRRR!!

VIPERTSUB7
Posted - 2008.03.19 18:31:00 - [4]
 

May be u have enought ISK to buy a new ship if u lose one, remember most of the pirates they play like a team that's the good thing and they can afford a new ship, let say if i just bought a drake or raven and spend ISK on it, i don't wanna lose it, but i steel love pvp.Idea

Rach NiKunni
Royal Enterprise
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2008.03.19 19:02:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Calypso's Wrath
A Slepnir, an Abaddon, an Onyx and a Meg, a carrier, a falcon and two other large ships.


Just a question..where EXACTLY was this? YARRRR!!


Rings a bell?

As for the guy who didn't understand. The point is, the first engagement could have been finessed instead of blobbed and would have been more fun by trying to get the meg out instead of trying to just stop the engagement cold. In the worst case someone would have lost a meg or an ecm frig or two... big deal. The second engagement was already pretty lopsided and we would have gotten creamed if they had just stood their ground. Instead of letting the ball bounce, however, they got all freaked out and called the cavalry..... next time I think I'll blow a fake cyno and ransom their carrier for 100mil while we watch the rats abandon ship.... LOL That would be good for a laugh.

I'm just saying that I find it odd that people don't seem to be thinking laterally or willing to take risks. It just makes me wonder what could be motivating people to extreme risk avoidance behaviours in a game where taking risk is what makes it fun.... I suppose some of use are just schooling fishes and others are sharks....

I don't know. Do you guys understand it? I don't.


Dimitry Kalashnikov
Gallente
Posted - 2008.03.19 19:07:00 - [6]
 

Wait a minute... an anti-pie complaining about pirates blobbing? Now I've seen it all.

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2008.03.19 19:09:00 - [7]
 

I think what you're trying to say is you'd like a little tactical battle between forces, instead you get massively outgunned by a blob.

I get blobbed all the time - it can be frustrating.

It comes down to winning as decisively as possible with minimal losses to your side - so you bring overwhelming force to ensure a victory.

If you want a tactical fight - start up a tournament with rules. Otherwise its a free for all war out there, so expect the worst and be prepared to exit.

On a side note - the next time your noob friend gets camped at a station - make an insta warp out for him. Take your interceptor, and hit max speed in a straight line away from the station exit point (the random 15 degree arc exit makes this tough so make sure you're relatively straight with the station exit - when you're a couple hundred km away from the station, tell your trapped friend to undock and warp to you in a shuttle. Even if you're slightly crooked from the exit, the friend should relatively be able to insta warp to you.

Rach NiKunni
Royal Enterprise
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2008.03.19 19:13:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Omarvelous

On a side note - the next time your noob friend gets camped at a station - make an insta warp out for him. Take your interceptor, and hit max speed in a straight line away from the station exit point (the random 15 degree arc exit makes this tough so make sure you're relatively straight with the station exit - when you're a couple hundred km away from the station, tell your trapped friend to undock and warp to you in a shuttle. Even if you're slightly crooked from the exit, the friend should relatively be able to insta warp to you.


Yeah this is how we got our Drake out. As I said we decided to get all heroic and bust our buddy out for the fun of doing it.

Alurexar
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.03.19 19:34:00 - [9]
 

- being pvper in EVE AND being pirate is 2x more expensive, but 3x more fun
so keep your lost ISkies low and pick targets, this is free for all pvp

- EVE the loss is high compared to other MMOS where you can pvp 24/7 and worst thing that could happened to you is 40 seconds wait time for respawn

- not all pirates sell GTC or farm/do missions/rat ISK with 2+ accounts

- Ransoming NEEDS many times overwhelming power to make it work.

- even if some ships are "cheap" , the refitting part if plain pain, and takes way too much time sometimes, remember that pirate has to use ALTS or friends to get his equipments (sec status)

Orar Ironfist
Veto.
Veto Corp
Posted - 2008.03.19 19:38:00 - [10]
 

Two things: Eves not fair. Just like life. Welcome to it.
Second: Many...and when i say many i mean manyyyyyy, anti-pies will setup traps such as this. Roughly eqaul size force warps in, enagages pirates..as soon as pirates aggress another huge group of you jump in, land, and thoroughly own said pirates. After the first couple times of this happening the pirates dont take chances anymore. Every time a known anti-pie group comes in they bring out the big guns expecting the same to happen to them. (certain anti-pies also hotdrop moms on their enemies...their alliance starts with f for fail.) Hope that clears a lil bit up.

Leylla Gainsborought
Fallen Angel's
Posted - 2008.03.19 19:51:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Orar Ironfist
Every time a known anti-pie group comes in they bring out the big guns expecting the same to happen to them. (certain anti-pies also hotdrop moms on their enemies...their alliance starts with f for fail.) Hope that clears a lil bit up.


Hum, trying to figure out who this can be ... start with a F finish by a N...

/me rofl

The Scarred
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
Posted - 2008.03.19 20:06:00 - [12]
 

T.b.h you should just have trained your noob freind how to change his clone location and saved yourself some bother

Rach NiKunni
Royal Enterprise
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2008.03.19 20:16:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Rach NiKunni on 19/03/2008 20:17:59
Originally by: Omarvelous
I think what you're trying to say is you'd like a little tactical battle between forces, instead you get massively outgunned by a blob.




I had to think about this. It's not exactly what I mean. Blobs don't overly frustrate me. They're part of the game and easily avoided for the most part. My disappointment, I suppose, is not being able to find very many people with the chutzpah to let the ball bounce when the odds look even. So yeah. I would like to find a little more tactical skirmish play. full stop. I guess the only thing that this really has to do with blobs is that so many promising skirmishes turn into gankfests.

I like the idea of a tournament though. Maybe I'll try setting up an alliance tournament in a 3 or 4 system loop where every corp fields a 4 or 5 pilot team and we hunt each other and fight to the death until either the last player still in his ship or all teams but one retire. hmmmm. We could do it in 0.0 and if it's a success then try it again in low sec for the added complications of sentry guns etc. I think I'm about to hatch a brilliant plan.....

edit: re: showing him how to move his clone. The thought occured to me but what's the fun in that?

Bklyn 1
Posted - 2008.03.19 20:45:00 - [14]
 

All too many people are so terrified by the thought of showing up on the wrong side of a kill mail, that in their terror they completely forget that it is a game and that fun can be a component of what they do.

Kind of sad really, but it is Eve reality.

Dranearian
Black Nova Corp
Posted - 2008.03.19 21:55:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Dranearian on 19/03/2008 22:06:22
To quote a bit of the "Art of War"

Quote:
The good fighters of old first put
themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then
waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy.

To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our
own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy
is provided by the enemy himself.

Thus the good fighter is able to secure himself against defeat,
but cannot make certain of defeating the enemy.
(...)
Hence the skillful fighter puts himself into
a position which makes defeat impossible, and does
not miss the moment for defeating the enemy.





To explain it a little bit... You can not control what your opponent brings to the field. All you can control is what you do. And the skillful fighter will put himself in a position that he cannot be defeated based on his own abilities and information. Now, you are playing an unpredictability card in your little gank attempt, hense they brought firepower capable of defeating you, and then some so that they were in a position that they could not lose.

As a great General once said.. and I am paraphrasing here.. The goal isn't to die for your country, its to make the other poor sap die for his.

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2008.03.19 22:18:00 - [16]
 

So when you guys outnumber the enemy how do you determine who stays behind and misses the action so nobody can accuse you of blobbing? Rolling Eyes

Wild1
Posted - 2008.03.28 20:03:00 - [17]
 

Bingo.

The unfortunate reality is that most battles will never be of equal force.

The other unfortunate reality is that EvE lacks any real tactical terrain elements that can be exploited in a situation where there's a mismatch.

Barring that, the forumla is (and always will be) the same: blob +/- gate or station-camping is most people's idea of combat these days, especially in low-sec Empire, which is more probable AND profitable for a kill than 0.0 has ever been.



Originally by: Rach NiKunni
Edited by: Rach NiKunni on 19/03/2008 20:17:59
Originally by: Omarvelous
I think what you're trying to say is you'd like a little tactical battle between forces, instead you get massively outgunned by a blob.




I had to think about this. It's not exactly what I mean. Blobs don't overly frustrate me. They're part of the game and easily avoided for the most part. My disappointment, I suppose, is not being able to find very many people with the chutzpah to let the ball bounce when the odds look even. So yeah. I would like to find a little more tactical skirmish play. full stop. I guess the only thing that this really has to do with blobs is that so many promising skirmishes turn into gankfests.

I like the idea of a tournament though. Maybe I'll try setting up an alliance tournament in a 3 or 4 system loop where every corp fields a 4 or 5 pilot team and we hunt each other and fight to the death until either the last player still in his ship or all teams but one retire. hmmmm. We could do it in 0.0 and if it's a success then try it again in low sec for the added complications of sentry guns etc. I think I'm about to hatch a brilliant plan.....

edit: re: showing him how to move his clone. The thought occured to me but what's the fun in that?


Drethon
Gallente
Selinir
Posted - 2008.03.28 21:01:00 - [18]
 

I also don't quite get retaliating with a blob. If I were an FC and one of my groups was being attacked and I had a massively larger force, I would send in a force enough larger for a high chance of victory and hold the rest back. This way if the attacking force has more ships they may bring them in and I can send more forces to engage them.

techzer0
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.03.28 21:29:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Drethon
I also don't quite get retaliating with a blob. If I were an FC and one of my groups was being attacked and I had a massively larger force, I would send in a force enough larger for a high chance of victory and hold the rest back. This way if the attacking force has more ships they may bring them in and I can send more forces to engage them.
If you don't have reliable intel and the negatives bring multiple neutrals, NPC corp, etc friends... you have no way of knowing what is coming for you. It's happened many times where we engage a gang of 4-5 with a similar sized force or slightly larger gang of smaller ships and a gang of 10 or more jumps in once enough ships are pointed.

Took on a trimark domi 1v1 in a mega... ended up with 19 people on my lossmail. This is why pirates overreact, dock, or safespot when faced with an unknown force of ships that have the ability to hold several people helpless at a gate or what have you. I don't mind dying, but the logistics of getting a new ship in lowsec are annoying and time consuming, even with an alt.

Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2008.03.28 21:43:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Alowishus on 28/03/2008 21:43:28


Originally by: techzer0
Took on a trimark domi 1v1 in a mega... ended up with 19 people on my lossmail.


This.

The reasons pirates may scramble at the sight of real opposition is simple:

1) We may want to switch ships and/or force you fight on our terms.
2) We may recognize your group as one who hot drops cap ships like they're Velators
3) We may recognize your group as one who uses log on traps (scouts don't help here)
4) We may have been dumb and realized we didn't have enough scouts to know you don't have 30 ships two jumps out

Celestal
Posted - 2008.03.28 22:12:00 - [21]
 

its called " gatecampers roleplaying as pvpers "

gatecamping takes no real skill , intelligence or tactics , its about as close to real pvp as a fat greasy spoon chef pulling wings off a fly ,is to an SAS soldier on a combat mission.


Alowishus
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2008.03.28 22:35:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Alowishus on 28/03/2008 22:35:27
Rolling Eyes

Says the alt turd...

Gatecamping is actually more like chaining NPC. The tards that bring valuables through lowsec gates without scouts are basically subhuman imbeciles. Comparing them to NPCs is giving them too much credit, actually. NPCs will at least fight back and sometimes even run away. Nobody is disputing this or is delusional that it's PvP. It's how I make ISK, sorta like when you mine veld. Don't delude yourself into thinking that because we chain tards for ISK that we're not capable pilots.

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2008.03.28 22:53:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Orar Ironfist
...Every time a known anti-pie group comes in they bring out the big guns expecting the same to happen to them. (certain anti-pies also hotdrop moms on their enemies...their alliance starts with f for fail.) Hope that clears a lil bit up.


HAHAHHAHA Laughing That one made me laugh, faildation and hot-dropping rapiers... Rolling Eyes

Originally by: techzer0
...I don't mind dying, but the logistics of getting a new ship in lowsec are annoying and time consuming, even with an alt.


Even worse when you're in another NPC faction's space (Minmatar carebears yarr the hell outta me with their tech 2 Caldari mods/ships). Crying or Very sad

OP - a tournament is fun to establish - but nothing beats the rush of non-consentual small scale pvp. YARRRR!!

Siren Call
DOOMSDAY.
Minor Threat.
Posted - 2008.03.29 01:09:00 - [24]
 

so wait, ur telling me they should have told some of their corp mates who were online to not come out and shoot you, but remain docked? looks like you fell for their bait...

arbalesttom
Mercurialis Inc.
RAZOR Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.29 01:22:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: arbalesttom on 29/03/2008 01:22:56
Your mini-blob got counterblobbed. So what?Rolling Eyes



Wild1
Posted - 2008.03.29 05:34:00 - [26]
 

or it could just be that most pirates in low-sec (especially empire) like the fact that they can gang **** in a x:1 and then go sit in a series of SS or (gasp) their own POS. (where x is anything from 2:1 or better odds). To the OP's point, there's nothing that forces a *fair* fight, and by and large, pirates in .01-.04 have some means to safely protect their assets -

When you risk next to nothing and minimize all manner of losses (e.g ganking in t1 cruisers in empire), lol - that's messed up.

Bottom line: it's too easy to pirate in empire, and there needs to be some balance in the whole *blob-fest / gate camping* equation. (sorry CCP, Black Ops and bombers don't solve that problem)

Pirates really want to think that they're PvP'ing (yarr) but most of them won't bother to PvP in 0.0 - it's too dangerous and nowhere near as *glorious* or profitable.

Here's a novel idea: Sentry guns and NPC's should put some real pressure on blobs and gate campers - especially in empire. Game mechanics could also be tweaked to NOT allow -5.1 or less players to randomly fly around without being subjected to immediate pressure.

ofc that would limit CCP's favorite pastime.




Originally by: Alowishus
Edited by: Alowishus on 28/03/2008 21:43:28


Originally by: techzer0
Took on a trimark domi 1v1 in a mega... ended up with 19 people on my lossmail.


This.

The reasons pirates may scramble at the sight of real opposition is simple:

1) We may want to switch ships and/or force you fight on our terms.
2) We may recognize your group as one who hot drops cap ships like they're Velators
3) We may recognize your group as one who uses log on traps (scouts don't help here)
4) We may have been dumb and realized we didn't have enough scouts to know you don't have 30 ships two jumps out

Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2008.03.29 06:55:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Omarvelous on 29/03/2008 06:55:57

Originally by: Wild1
or it could just be that most pirates in low-sec (especially empire) like the fact that they can gang **** in a x:1 and then go sit in a series of SS or (gasp) their own POS. (where x is anything from 2:1 or better odds). To the OP's point, there's nothing that forces a *fair* fight, and by and large, pirates in .01-.04 have some means to safely protect their assets -

When you risk next to nothing and minimize all manner of losses (e.g ganking in t1 cruisers in empire), lol - that's messed up.

Bottom line: it's too easy to pirate in empire, and there needs to be some balance in the whole *blob-fest / gate camping* equation. (sorry CCP, Black Ops and bombers don't solve that problem)

Pirates really want to think that they're PvP'ing (yarr) but most of them won't bother to PvP in 0.0 - it's too dangerous and nowhere near as *glorious* or profitable.

Here's a novel idea: Sentry guns and NPC's should put some real pressure on blobs and gate campers - especially in empire. Game mechanics could also be tweaked to NOT allow -5.1 or less players to randomly fly around without being subjected to immediate pressure.

ofc that would limit CCP's favorite pastime.


Yep I'm sure its pirates that are ALWAYS blobbing...Rolling Eyes Anti-pies are just as bad.

When you don't pay attention and get ganked by a tech 1 cruiser in empire - its not messed up - its a consequence of you not being prepared.

I yarr and pvp in 0.0. One's not more challenging than the other - they're two different animals. 0.0 just takes blobs to the next level.

If you buff sentry guns - you will ensure that gate camps are even larger than they already are to split the gun fire. You mean being banned from high sec for being under -5.0 doesn't let you fly around without immediate pressure? Where's this high sec pocket??

I'm getting a little stuffed dining on your whine-tears, adapt your playstyle to avoid getting ganked. Use scouts and tactics to avoid blobs, or to counter them. Trust your instincts when you smell a trap.

Quite complaining things aren't fair - a fair fight between gangs in eve means that both sides failed to have proper scouting...

Kano Sekor
Amarr
Burning Steel Inc.
Posted - 2008.03.29 10:42:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Kano Sekor on 29/03/2008 10:42:04
As i see its inflation in ship users, when i started it was common to see pvp:ing in frigs i dont think that is so commmon anymore i mean the ship most ppl are recommended to get in before pvp:ing is a BS.
I think this is bad but i sure as hell dont have any solution all the ppl who fly large as hell ships and stick togheter in fleets has spent alot of time to get where they are. (unless the ebayed id)
Nah like someone said in another thread "CCP boost small gangs nerf fleets mmkay?"

Rach NiKunni
Royal Enterprise
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2008.03.29 11:07:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Rach NiKunni on 29/03/2008 11:17:14
Originally by: Alowishus


The reasons pirates may scramble at the sight of real opposition is simple:

1) We may want to switch ships and/or force you fight on our terms.
2) We may recognize your group as one who hot drops cap ships like they're Velators
3) We may recognize your group as one who uses log on traps (scouts don't help here)
4) We may have been dumb and realized we didn't have enough scouts to know you don't have 30 ships two jumps out


nah.

5) Blobbers are scaredy-cats with balls like dried up olive pits.

I think we have our finger behind it now.....

Rach NiKunni
Royal Enterprise
Dead Terrorists
Posted - 2008.03.29 11:16:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Rach NiKunni on 29/03/2008 11:16:19
.double post removed. R..


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