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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2008.03.17 22:45:00 - [121]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 17/03/2008 22:50:08
“should a passive module provide resists even remotely similar to that of an active hardener? The answer is no.”
The question is should a very high end, high skillpoints passive modules beat a low skillpoint and low end active hardener. The answer to that is yes. Why on earth should a 1 billion module be worse then a 1 million module?




“Opinion.. subjective.. pointless..
Noted tho, now as you said originally: its time to move on.”

It’s not pure opinion. Factions follow set rules. Some factions focus on fittings, others harder fitting better specs. This new change overrides the normal faction rules and breaks the flow of the storyline. The Estamel faction gear always had higher stats and hard fittings while Tobias faction gear was extra easy fitting. Estamel dont focus on fitting so why would the shield module all of a sudden get easy to fit? Faction gear was balanced. Now there is a massive imbalance as the shield faction gear is way out of sync with other faction gear and faction rules.

It’s not just the nerf it’s the fact they messed up the faction balance. A small nerf wouldn’t be too bad if they keep the faction flow right. Estamel gear should stay the best but be hard to fit. Modules are not meant to be balanced on meta level. They should be balanced on the faction the gear comes from and how rare it is. The meta level should be based on the modules, not the module on the meta level.




“Face it: a passive hardener giving you 54.5% resistance is as good as it SHOULD get. Even T2 actives only give 55%. So you esentially get a T2 active hardener for no cap cost.”
Which makes the module next to useless. For billions in isk and millions in skillpoints you get to save 2 cap/sec per module. That’s not right for the amount of effort money and skillpoints required.

Why should 54.5% be as good as it gets? It doesn’t make send for the amount of effort needed or for how rare the module is. Do you even realise how hard it is to get Estamel faction gear? Something that hard should give more then 2 cap/sec saveing. Estamel is ment to be top of the range far better then T2. Not worse then T2.

EDIT: Look at it another way, as passive tank there is now zero reason to use the faction passive modules. This change makes them useless as your better off with cheap common T2 active modules. Less skill training to.

Ash Vincetti
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
Posted - 2008.03.17 22:51:00 - [122]
 

Edited by: Ash Vincetti on 17/03/2008 22:51:29
"It’s not just the nerf it’s the fact they messed up the faction balance. A small nerf wouldn’t be too bad if they keep the faction flow right. Estamel gear should stay the best but be hard to fit. Modules are not meant to be balanced on meta level. They should be balanced on the faction the gear comes from and how rare it is. The meta level should be based on the modules, not the module on the meta level."

This is exactly the problem with this balance change. If you look at only meta level, fittings & percentage bonus on shield amps alone, then I can see where the new system "makes sense"

However, if you look at faction line, fitting characteristics, and bonus characteristics, this change completely upends the balance of how faction items work. It makes sense within the narrow "Shield Amplifier Bonuses" table. It makes no sense within the "Faction Line Characteristics Matrix"

Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2008.03.17 22:56:00 - [123]
 

Pottsey has good arguements.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the current balancing act is part of the "make everything the same" movement. I have always been a proponent of variety. I hate to see things become more similar to one another in stats.

I wish that Guristas shield mods offered best resistence, but worst CPU usage. While Domination offered superb CPU use with less resistence. Now that's variety, with room for balance.

Variety is a good thing, seriously, a little bit of random variation goes a long way in keeping people interest. That should be common sense knowlege to any game designer. But if you don't believe me, research it.

NeoTheo
M'8'S
Posted - 2008.03.17 23:02:00 - [124]
 


@Malar ;)

Right, first off, i had better say this to kinda prove i am not some 5 year old idiot. :)

I appologise for comming across like a arse, usually i am pretty rational about nerfs but this one has annoyed me for a number of reasons, ill detail them now to see if you can understand because HONESTLY - its not all about the ISK.

first off, this bit...

Originally by: Malar
"They nerfed resists. THE BASTARDS." or "OMG roll these changes back, cuz they s**k." Since i'm obviously not as interested in the state of your wallet than you are, i guess this pretty much leaves me with generally rubbing it into your face and telling you: "kthxdiecanihaveyourstuff?" Which i actually even mean for a change, considering you are obviously of the rich variety of whiners out there.


On the evidence i dont blame you for thinking this, but honestly whilst the cash part is some of my annoyance, its not all of it. My main objections are that whilst i don't doubt that the passive amps needed a nerf and a global rebalance THIS rebalance is wrong in the scale of how shield modules work in general.

1. Passive tanks RARELY lack CPU, nohz quoting the CPU reductions as a good thing is a bit of scale mainly because no passive tanker lacks CPU. its a "meaningless mod". In a passive setup there are now no reasons at all to use the lower tier of + meta level 5 items. ( meaning specifically the caldari navy tier of items (inculding equivlents).

again i conceed that the higher level meta level items needed rebalancing, (meta 14's) but should that balance come at the cost of making a supposed "nice loot" totally and utterly 100% useless?

2. Amarr Navy Energised plates (the same type of meta level item), have no such down side, they have A) better resists than tier2, and are B) easyer to fit than tier 2.

so in short, the lower tier of shield faction items are in fact now useless in 90% of situations, whilst the armor ones are not. please dont confuse this with the higher tier officer shield items that i agree needed to be put in line with the rest of the stuff, but i say again not at the cost of the lower tier high meta items becomming useless.

what i would have been in faviour of was the item resist values being scaled differently so that the meta levels are more in line, but not so that the only bonus offered by a faction mod is one that a passive setup will NEVER care about. the only case i can see these new stats being usefull is where rigs are used to push up the CPU requirements of weapons.

its not all about money mate, its also about the fact THIS nerf does not make sense given how the shield tanking world works. it really does look like a dude with a spreadsheet who hasnt ever flown a shield tanking ship and analized it.

Originally by: Malar
No need to blame it on communications and stuff. Would they have written these into the patch notes, you would still be here whining about it, only change that the wining would have started sooner.


With the nerf not making sense your right i probably would, but at least i would have know, and could have prepared for it. in this case, we've both been lied to by hammerhead, and also the nerf makes no sense in terms of benafits of the module. i say again in a passive environment tech II items are no worse. your right, but had i know that this was going to go live i would have just thought "ohh ok screw it" and been un happy about it, but i would have got on with it.

as it stands, me and several others bugged this on sisi many weeks ago, and then got told in the patch notes "no nerfs", so we assumed it had been rolled back, common man, you cant in all honesty tell me thats good?

CONTINUNES..

NeoTheo
M'8'S
Posted - 2008.03.17 23:08:00 - [125]
 


Originally by: Malar
As for your post about Nozh clarified things. It was a pure rant well before you so honorably decided not to rant. Kind of funny tho to state you are not about to start ranting, at the end of a rant. I wonder how ranting would have looked like after that post.


yes your right and i should have kept my word. i didnt cause i was insensed by the fact the "bone" thrown to me by ccp makes no sense.


Originally by: Malar
If you consider those constructive simply because they do not contradict your point thats your problem. It will not make the thread any more constructive. You linking another thread into this one, instead of telling the mods to close that one down for being redundant is not constructive either.


again, not handled correctly so i appologise.


Originally by: Malar
- Did you ever look at what kind of resists the armor hardeners give? like 37% for the BEST officer mod? Oh sure.. go on complaining about how they nerfed the shield resists now..


no i am not about to cry about the general shield nerf (or the armor one in fact) i see the idea there and think its not a bad change. as for your comment about armor tanking, well thas a different subject, and one i think your simlifying to much. i have already said i have no issue with the higher end mods getting nerfed, but making base line entry faction ones useless, i cant agree with.

Its not all about my wallet mate, however i can see how you thought that.

Originally by: Malar
- I'm not interested in any of the objections raised in this thread.


This is the only thing you have said in this post i totally think is bad, if your not interested, then why post? in effect your being just as disruptive as me. your not prepared to consider the bad points about this topic because you have already made up your mind that this is about my wallet, well its not, its about "CPU usegage" being a compleatly ******ed "bone" to throw us in a passive shield environment.

anyhow, over and out, and sorry for being unreasonable.

/Neo

NeoTheo
M'8'S
Posted - 2008.03.17 23:16:00 - [126]
 

Edited by: NeoTheo on 17/03/2008 23:16:28
Originally by: Pottsey
stuff...



you know what? Pottsey you usually make me scream but thank you for putting this stuff across better than me, i am apparently unable to control my hands to construct rational arguements :P

/neo ;)

Malar
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.03.17 23:17:00 - [127]
 

Originally by: Pohbis

I take it you support this "consistency" to be implemented on all mods then? 'cause that's what the Dev told us this was all about. Consistency, not balancing active vs. passive, maybe you missed that part?


Actually, i never cared about the mods, i just use whatever fits my goals best at a given moment. If they change it, i simply use another one.

Did you see my cry when they nerfed my sabre to hell and beyond? Nah.. i still have a fully pimped one sitting in one of my hangars.. It is part of the museum now, just like the breacher with the cruiser launchers on it. Remnants of an older version.

The reason why i cant really support these kinds of whine threads is that CCP does these kinds of changes all the time, but people usually only cry if they are affected in a negative manner. The people here arent bothered about consistency, they are bothered about their modules being worser than they used to be.

As mentioned, a few of my corpmates have officer amplifiers that did go from 30% to 40+. Do they whine here? Of course they dont.

Thats my point. The people who really care for this game do not start rant threads in general discussions, they post bug reports / start suggestion threads in the appropriate forums. Nothing more to add really. This ISNT the thread that says: oh please, fix the game as it is broken. This is the thread that says: oh booo fix the game as you screwed it up for me.

Originally by: Pohbis

Fact is, a Dev was tasked or took upon him to "correct" certain "conceived" inconsistencies with metalevel and numbers, without actually realizing that just because they have the same metalevel, they aren't in the same category.


Thing is, the market will undergo some fluctuations, some people will lose some isk, some will make some isk, people will start using different setups and the game just goes on. Thats the only thing that counts.

Originally by: Pohbis

Blame the Dev or blame the crappy metalevel ratings. Fact is this will make prior highly sought after mods nearly worthless, because easier to get mods in the same metalevel now give the same bonuses...


This is bad how exactly? Ah yes.. this is bad cuz a few people who did live on farming these items now have to look for something else to farm. Anything else? Is the game broken now? Nah.. it merely changed. Like so many times in the past 5+ years.


Originally by: Pohbis

... but since that's a matter of how you judge mods and metalevel should work. The even bigger flaw in this is that this "consistency" hasn't been implemented on all mods. Making it an inconsistent change, that skews the game in favor of the mods not yet "corrected", aka, a nerf in its purest form.


Actually, i would like to remind you, that more mods were in fact imporved than nerfed. 8 vs 7 i think. So if we go by the numbers, its still a boost. If you add up the positive and negative changed, then its a HUGE boost overall as lots of mods got way better than they were, while a few god a few percentages skimmed off them. The biggest negative change was like 6% or so, while the biggest positive one is over 10.

That much for 'nerfing'.

Malar
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.03.17 23:21:00 - [128]
 

Originally by: Willow Whisp

It's not that items were nerfed. I don't mind the items being brought back to "acceptable" levels. What I do mind, is completely changing around the way the factions co-relate to each other, and to officers, simply because an arbitrary "meta" value places them higher or lower on the pecking order.


Oh i get it.. its not that items are being bought back to acceptable levels, its just that "i make up some arbitrary excuse here to show that the changes are still wrong".

You realize, that only changing the passive shield hardeners and adjusting them differently than how current gist, pith, etc faction items are related to eachother is not a game breaking issue? In fact.. its not an issue at all. Its only an issue if you are desperate enough to find something you can point at and say "its wrong".

Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
Posted - 2008.03.17 23:30:00 - [129]
 

Edited by: Willow Whisp on 17/03/2008 23:30:27
Originally by: Malar
You realize, that only changing the passive shield hardeners and adjusting them differently than how current gist, pith, etc faction items are related to eachother is not a game breaking issue? In fact.. its not an issue at all. Its only an issue if you are desperate enough to find something you can point at and say "its wrong".


Ah, I see. So, if all gist shield items -except for shield amps- have better cap usage than pith items, and all estamel modules -except for shield amps- have higher fitting requirements with better bonuses, and all tobias modules are worse than estamel modules -except for shield amps- which are the same, and all vespas modules are equal to pithum A modules, exept for shield amps, in which case they are equal to Gistum B modules, then it's not an issue? How silly of me, to expect that
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Basically high-meta shield amplifiers got rebalanced based on meta level and normal shield hardeners trends.
actually be consistent across the board, rather than based on a poorly selected and isolated sample Rolling Eyes


Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
Posted - 2008.03.17 23:33:00 - [130]
 

Edited by: Pottsey on 17/03/2008 23:37:33
“You realize, that only changing the passive shield hardeners and adjusting them differently than how current gist, pith, etc faction items are related to eachother is not a game breaking issue?”
It is a game breaking issue its like turning a mega into a Laser ship or a Domi into am missile ship. There is a background storyline and factions settings for reason.

This isn’t people making arbitrary excuses. Eve has a background and each faction has a personality. The new changes don’t fit into the factions.



“Oh i get it.. its not that items are being bought back to acceptable levels, “
But its gone beyond that. The Dread faction us meant to be better then T2 not the same as T2. Acceptable levels would keep the Dread as worthwhile.

A high lvl complex loot should not be rubbish. These change’s don’t take into account how or where you get the loot from. Making easy to get loot better then hard to get loot is not acceptable levels.

EDIT: Not the best example but why do a 10/10 complex when a 5/5 gives better loot?


Malar
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.03.17 23:41:00 - [131]
 

Edited by: Malar on 17/03/2008 23:41:29
Okay, so to prevent me from writing walls of text going into each and every post basically writing the same thing:

First off:
NeoTheo - you really do not need to apologize, this is a forum a general forum to that, people here are usually acting like jerks - me included. (although mostly intentional and calculated on my part) Then again, its nice to see someone who is able to realize a mistake, hats off for that.

Also:
As it is getting late over here and i'll prolly forget about this thread by tomorrow, here are some final thoughts.

I could care less for the stats of those shield mods. I never really used a passive hardener myself, cuz they all suck except for the really expensive faction / officer ones which were actually better than t2 with skills, and since i fly ships that tend to go boom - pvp - faction / officer modules are off limit unless in some rare cases where i fit pimped out ships

I am on the opinion tho, that no matter what CCP changes, the game will adjust itself and balance things out. Its a pretty well built game in that you really cant just kill it by a few wrong tweaks.

Furthermore, CCP always does these kind of changes and people always whine afterwards. Take it from someone who has been here for over 5 years. This always happened, and it never helped. The only real way to get your voice noted is to post calm, cool headed and really constructive posts in the appropriate forums. Even then, CCP will have quite a lot of their own 'silly' ideas to screw you over. you just got to live with that.

Finally:
The best thing that could happen to this discussion is to get closed down. Those who really care should move over to the features and ideas discussion and start a new, calm thread about how the modules should / could be rebalanced to make everyone happy. Just remember, no matter what you change, if it is a negative change, there will be people who disagree and will cry 'nerf' no matter how good your intentions are.

Cutie Chaser
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2008.03.17 23:42:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Pottsey

The question is should a very high end, high skillpoints passive modules beat a low skillpoint and low end active hardener. The answer to that is yes. Why on earth should a 1 billion module be worse then a 1 million module?



Because it takes no cap?

NeoTheo
M'8'S
Posted - 2008.03.17 23:47:00 - [133]
 


yher i know dude ;) been around since the days of duel mwd ravens and such myself.

personally i fly my Faction Fit ship so little due to wars and PvP, but i still think EvE having a nice PvE Endgame is good for bussiness cause not everyone likes to pew pew all the time, + a little variation in the game is a good thing.

Whilst i agree with your overall sentiment, i just think its getting close to going to far, last thing i want is for everyone to end up using "whatever module" cause they are all the same.

but yher, bygones be bygones i guess ;)

now i better re kitt a ship and go get myself bbq;ed ;)

/Neo.

Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
Posted - 2008.03.17 23:48:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Cutie Chaser
Originally by: Pottsey

The question is should a very high end, high skillpoints passive modules beat a low skillpoint and low end active hardener. The answer to that is yes. Why on earth should a 1 billion module be worse then a 1 million module?



Because it takes no cap?


As opposed to taking 2 cap/s?

Malar
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.03.17 23:56:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: Willow Whisp
Originally by: Cutie Chaser
Originally by: Pottsey

The question is should a very high end, high skillpoints passive modules beat a low skillpoint and low end active hardener. The answer to that is yes. Why on earth should a 1 billion module be worse then a 1 million module?



Because it takes no cap?


As opposed to taking 2 cap/s?


Thats quite a lot on an assault frig that only has like +7.6 base recharge. Should i go on? I did make quite a lot of setups during my EVE career, that - even on large ships - has the cap portioned to the last point. +/- 2 cap / sec on such a setup can mean the difference between a stable setup and a setup that crumbles and fails.

Doh.. off with me now.

Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
Posted - 2008.03.17 23:59:00 - [136]
 

Edited by: Willow Whisp on 18/03/2008 00:00:24
Originally by: Malar

Thats quite a lot on an assault frig that only has like +7.6 base recharge. Should i go on? I did make quite a lot of setups during my EVE career, that - even on large ships - has the cap portioned to the last point. +/- 2 cap / sec on such a setup can mean the difference between a stable setup and a setup that crumbles and fails.


Agreed Malar. I doubt you would put a billion isk module on an assault frig though.

Quote:
Doh.. off with me now.

Shoo! Shoo! Off to bed with you! LaughingLaughing

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.03.18 00:34:00 - [137]
 

Did all of you actually read CCP Nozhs post?

1) The shield resist amps were terribly imbalanced. I did not know this, but look at that chart, the values are all over the place.

2) "However if you take a look at normal shield hardeners and their Faction counterpartsthey follow the exact same trend. Same resistance but lower CPU." They are not balanced on other general faction/deadspace/officer module values but off of shield hardener values. I showed info on the shield hardeners and found CCP Nozh's changes to be consistent (I would boost the Domi shield amp as the domi hardener uses a ton less cap/s, but meh)

3) Some people with huge egos telling the Devs how this or that should work, need to back off, especially when talking about a few % resistance points.

4) I support looking at and possibly changing all faction/deadspace/officer modules. The whole carebear until you get a super CNR/MS is WoW/lame-MMORPG stuff that I really wish EVE would get rid of.

Mioelnir
Minmatar
Cataclysm Enterprises
Ev0ke
Posted - 2008.03.18 00:42:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Vaal Erit
Did all of you actually read CCP Nozhs post?

1) The shield resist amps were terribly imbalanced. I did not know this, but look at that chart, the values are all over the place.

2) "However if you take a look at normal shield hardeners and their Faction counterpartsthey follow the exact same trend. Same resistance but lower CPU." They are not balanced on other general faction/deadspace/officer module values but off of shield hardener values. I showed info on the shield hardeners and found CCP Nozh's changes to be consistent (I would boost the Domi shield amp as the domi hardener uses a ton less cap/s, but meh)

3) Some people with huge egos telling the Devs how this or that should work, need to back off, especially when talking about a few % resistance points.

4) I support looking at and possibly changing all faction/deadspace/officer modules. The whole carebear until you get a super CNR/MS is WoW/lame-MMORPG stuff that I really wish EVE would get rid of.
Please stay away until you learn to understand and comprehend what you read.

All of the constructive posts in this thread do not explicitly mind rebalancing shield resist modules, but the way a single module type was picked out and broken in regards to faction flavour.

Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
Posted - 2008.03.18 00:49:00 - [139]
 

Edited by: Willow Whisp on 18/03/2008 01:15:41
Originally by: Vaal Erit
Did all of you actually read CCP Nozhs post?

1) The shield resist amps were terribly imbalanced. I did not know this, but look at that chart, the values are all over the place.

Yes, the values are all over the place when looking at the chart in isolation

Quote:
2) "However if you take a look at normal shield hardeners and their Faction counterpartsthey follow the exact same trend. Same resistance but lower CPU." They are not balanced on other general faction/deadspace/officer module values but off of shield hardener values. I showed info on the shield hardeners and found CCP Nozh's changes to be consistent (I would boost the Domi shield amp as the domi hardener uses a ton less cap/s, but meh)

Correct, they are (now) consistent with faction shield hardener values. not with the rest of the deadspace/officer values.

Quote:
3) Some people with huge egos telling the Devs how this or that should work, need to back off, especially when talking about a few % resistance points.

It's not about the % resistance points, it's about consistency between DEDspace/officer values. I have stated before that i don't mind the lowered resistance, I just want it done consistently with the rest of the complex/officer tables.

Quote:
4) I support looking at and possibly changing all faction/deadspace/officer modules.

Absolutely. I think the whole line could use looking at. However, the flavor of each faction should stay consistent. Some faction lines offer better fitting requirements with lower bonuses. others offer higher bonuses at the cost of higher CPU and/or grid requirements. I don't care if they are lowered in %, as long as it's done consistently with the flavor of each faction.

The reason for people being upset is not because "OMG Estamel's dropped from 49.6% to 43.6%" it's because the drop was not consistent with the rest of the table complex/officer flavours. If Estamel's was to drop to 43.6%, then Tobias' should have dropped to 42.3%, and the rest of the items should have dropped proportionally, and their fittings adjusted according to that particular line's characteristics.

Quote:
The whole carebear until you get a super CNR/MS is WoW/lame-MMORPG stuff that I really wish EVE would get rid of.


There is an amazing variety and flavour to the current officer/complex/faction items. While some of the "high end" items could probably use some rebalancing to not make them so "Carebear WoW/lame" as you call them, homogenizing them at the cost of flavour is not the answer.

I like the variety and complexity that the different faction flavours offer. I think that they could be even further expanded. I don't want a Caldari Navy invul = Dread Guristas Invul = Republic Fleet Invul. I want them to each have different characteristics, and for me to have a reason to fit one over the other. The same with faction and officer modules. The answer is not to have 10x clones of the same item, with a different name.

I think that more should be done to differentiate Sansha / Blood Raider faction items. more should be done to differentiate Amarr Navy / Khanid Navy. Even if the same "Meta" level, the flavour should be different.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Posted - 2008.03.18 01:17:00 - [140]
 

Mioelnir: Hello troll. Maybe you should read the thread and how far downhill it went after CCP Nozh's post. People complaining of massive isk loss and how it is completely unfair, blah blah blah. Thread started out with curious people, but then went whiner. Re-read the thread, bro.

Willow Whisp: You are spot on. I would like it done consistently with racial flavor as well. I think we should applaud CCP Nozh for this change and encourage him to review all faction/deadpsace/office meta level loot.

You can either whine a lot and be upset or try to understand why the changes were made (even if you don't like them) and go with the flow. The flow is not bad. The flow is fun.

Mioelnir
Minmatar
Cataclysm Enterprises
Ev0ke
Posted - 2008.03.18 01:28:00 - [141]
 

You might want to reread #76. Then call me a troll if you like.

Back Again
Caldari
Hazardous Situations Club
Posted - 2008.03.18 01:46:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Malar
Edited by: Malar on 17/03/2008 23:41:29
Okay, so to prevent me from writing walls of text going into each and every post basically writing the same thing:

First off:
NeoTheo - you really do not need to apologize, this is a forum a general forum to that, people here are usually acting like jerks - me included. (although mostly intentional and calculated on my part) Then again, its nice to see someone who is able to realize a mistake, hats off for that.

Also:
As it is getting late over here and i'll prolly forget about this thread by tomorrow, here are some final thoughts.

I could care less for the stats of those shield mods. I never really used a passive hardener myself, cuz they all suck except for the really expensive faction / officer ones which were actually better than t2 with skills, and since i fly ships that tend to go boom - pvp - faction / officer modules are off limit unless in some rare cases where i fit pimped out ships

I am on the opinion tho, that no matter what CCP changes, the game will adjust itself and balance things out. Its a pretty well built game in that you really cant just kill it by a few wrong tweaks.

Furthermore, CCP always does these kind of changes and people always whine afterwards. Take it from someone who has been here for over 5 years. This always happened, and it never helped. The only real way to get your voice noted is to post calm, cool headed and really constructive posts in the appropriate forums. Even then, CCP will have quite a lot of their own 'silly' ideas to screw you over. you just got to live with that.

Finally:
The best thing that could happen to this discussion is to get closed down. Those who really care should move over to the features and ideas discussion and start a new, calm thread about how the modules should / could be rebalanced to make everyone happy. Just remember, no matter what you change, if it is a negative change, there will be people who disagree and will cry 'nerf' no matter how good your intentions are.


Your only post I totally agree, you'd made some points in the others but the tone was harsh and lost the essence of your ideas.

To NeoTheo: Following the rational of Malar, I would advise to edit the OP, change the tittle to other less sarcastic or even asking to close this thread. Lets start one thread in the appropriate forum, maybe Akita T or Willow Whisp can start a new one there and we will go support it, as these guys, surely, have more technical arguments than both of us together.

Cutie Chaser
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2008.03.18 03:34:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Willow Whisp
Originally by: Cutie Chaser
Originally by: Pottsey

The question is should a very high end, high skillpoints passive modules beat a low skillpoint and low end active hardener. The answer to that is yes. Why on earth should a 1 billion module be worse then a 1 million module?



Because it takes no cap?


As opposed to taking 2 cap/s?


If some overly-friendly Curse comes up and sucks all your cap out then the passive module still works fine. The active one shuts off and drops to practically nothing. The fact that they take even a single point of cap is an issue.

I'm not saying that high-end faction passive hardeners were broken, or they they needed a nerf, but the fact that they got one was not unwarranted, nor is a slap in the face to hardcore passive tankers everywhere. Something was out of line, they fixed it. Sucks when it happens to something you own/like/fly, but it hits us all once in a while.

I'm much more disappointed that a 100% straight up NERF was somehow 'mysteriously' left out of the patch message for the no-nerf patch. This wasn't a give and take situation, they were straight up reduced.




Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
Posted - 2008.03.18 05:59:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Cutie Chaser
I'm not saying that high-end faction passive hardeners were broken, or they they needed a nerf, but the fact that they got one was not unwarranted, nor is a slap in the face to hardcore passive tankers everywhere. Something was out of line, they fixed it. Sucks when it happens to something you own/like/fly, but it hits us all once in a while.

I'm much more disappointed that a 100% straight up NERF was somehow 'mysteriously' left out of the patch message for the no-nerf patch. This wasn't a give and take situation, they were straight up reduced.


Hun, all these points have been raised throughout this thread. The balance changes aren't a bad thing. What was bad is the way they were done in isolation to the rest of the faction picture, without any regard of the flavours that each faction line offered. Please read my previous posts as to why these was bad. It's not about a % reduction on some mods, is about a complete re-writing of the faction rules and how they interact with each other in the narrow context of one type of item, without looking at the greater picture.

Dexion Slayer
Minmatar
Einherjar Rising
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.03.18 06:16:00 - [145]
 

aww focking ccp ****s..i had my siege raven fit with 0.05 cpu spare using a DG co proc...aww cra..

Gravecall
Posted - 2008.03.18 08:34:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Gravecall on 18/03/2008 08:38:08
Edited by: Gravecall on 18/03/2008 08:37:01
So they nerfed the resistance bonus but they dropped the fitting requirements?
Basically they made them useful to those in smaller ships but pointlessly overpriced to those who can actually pilot the ships to do the lv3-4 missions needed to realistically afford them?
Bravo...Rolling Eyes

This just means that everyone and their dog will now be working towards the factional invulnerability fields instead, previously a pair of these was notably better than 3 factional resistance amps anyway, you'd just slot the 3rd slot with a cap recharger or a battery, now that balance has been thrown even more in their favour.
All things considered they should have ignored caldari turret ships if they were going to do that since they're the main caldari users of the resistance amplifiers due to the high cap drain from turrets making use of hardners unfavourable compared to on the missile ships. Now we'll just have an even higher proportion of folks swearing that Caldari are a missile only race.

Sannye
Posted - 2008.03.18 09:28:00 - [147]
 

Spending month's of training time, seeing it blown away in a "boost patch" overnight - with NO patchnotes, NO warning - it's beyond stupid.

I unsubscribed. This was the last straw - the LAST fitting you could have that was actually worth shieldtanking for!

Armortanks, you won.

Another caldari out.


P.S. No, you cant have my stuff - i'll pass it to a corp member, including all my now USELESS passive shield amp's that i spend the most of 3 months getting.

FlyT3
Amarr
Grumpy Old Farts
Posted - 2008.03.18 09:33:00 - [148]
 

Edited by: FlyT3 on 18/03/2008 09:33:42
Originally by: Sannye
Spending month's of training time, seeing it blown away in a "boost patch" overnight - with NO patchnotes, NO warning - it's beyond stupid.

I unsubscribed. This was the last straw - the LAST fitting you could have that was actually worth shieldtanking for!

Armortanks, you won.

Another caldari out.


P.S. No, you cant have my stuff - i'll pass it to a corp member, including all my now USELESS passive shield amp's that i spend the most of 3 months getting.


Right...Laughing

Sannye
Posted - 2008.03.18 09:37:00 - [149]
 

Do you have any idea what they went for before this nerf?

How much isk/time is spent on getting a good set?

/me checks race - amarr... uhm, i doubt you have any idea.

Fast question - do your armor comp. skills work with energized adaptive nano plate?

O.. so you get the benefit of your training time - now do the shield comp. skills work on an invoun. field?



Malar
HUN Corp.
HUN Reloaded
Posted - 2008.03.18 10:22:00 - [150]
 

Edited by: Malar on 18/03/2008 10:32:12
Edited by: Malar on 18/03/2008 10:24:44
Originally by: Sannye
Spending month's of training time, seeing it blown away in a "boost patch" overnight - with NO patchnotes, NO warning - it's beyond stupid.

I unsubscribed. This was the last straw - the LAST fitting you could have that was actually worth shieldtanking for!

Armortanks, you won.

Another caldari out.


KTHXDIECANIHAVEYOURSTUFF?

Oh man.. i was waiting eternally for a true opportunity to say this, and to say this first :P

Quote:

P.S. No, you cant have my stuff - i'll pass it to a corp member, including all my now USELESS passive shield amp's that i spend the most of 3 months getting.


I elegantly ignore this part if you do not mind :) Cheap attempt to ruin my fun.

Quote:

O.. so you get the benefit of your training time - now do the shield comp. skills work on an invoun. field?


You realize i hope, that there is no invul field equivalent of hardeners in the armor category. All they've got is an all around energized plate. Now even with skills, the best one of those only gives about 37% resists, compared to the 30% a t2 invul field would give, or god forbid the 50% the estamel invu field gives.

So forgive me if i do not burst into tears on how badly the shield tanks were nerfed.


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