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Trotski II
Rasta Tropical Club
Posted - 2008.03.15 01:09:00 - [61]
 

I have around 3 billion invested in FIN and for me when i invested secured meant the lock on the BPOs and when lock was done in each state to raise capital there where more value locked then you where collecting from investors. There was always a safety net of around 20% if i remember correctly whenever you sold more shares/bonds.

You paid month after month and now that things are not so bright people look at your fat personal wallet and want you to liquidate all and add the rest to refund in 100%.

Now letīs imagine that for some reason tech2 BPO from one day to another lost all their value. Would they want you to sell your house to buy GTC???

If you are still interested in keeping producing just keep ALL the BPOs and produce what is worth at any given time and pay what you can. No idea if you take a salary, administrative fee,etc, but if you do reduce it too. Pay what you can.

If you are tired of producing sell them all and reinburse what is possible threw dividends.

With FIN-U just scam them all Evil or Very Mad


Nummb
Amarr
Posted - 2008.03.15 01:25:00 - [62]
 

Interesting idea's being brought forth, good for the community to talk about and get a sense of how things are going. To the people who whine about Eefrit having ammassed 400 billion worth of assets, do you realize how unique this is? The sheer logistics of managing all these different BPO's, materials, reactions, POS's, build times, shipping, sell orders, etc...would have driven more people out of the game than it would have brought in.

I am not saying we should all bow to the ground and kiss Eefrit's arse, I am just saying that the whiners should be careful of what they ask for. If you are going to lose isk in this deal, what difference does it make whether its money lost now or money lost in a month through a liquidation process? In the true sense of the game, you lost your money the instant you sent it to Eefrit. He just has been kind enough to slowly give some of it back to you over the last year in the form of dividends.

Shadarle
Posted - 2008.03.15 01:30:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Nummb
what difference does it make whether its money lost now or money lost in a month through a liquidation process?


People like to account for their money and know what they have in what investments. If one of their investments has lost value they should know this so they can account for it and so other people can know what they should value it at if they wish to buy it/use it as collateral/etc.

Dal Thrax
Perkone
Posted - 2008.03.15 02:01:00 - [64]
 

Well here are my suggestions:

1) Restate NAV to current estimate print value. Base payout on current NAV.

2) Look at the underperforming BPO's is there anything that's such a clear invention target that its value is unlikely to come back? Is it possible that a group would see a strategic advantage in paying a premium for a BPO to have an assured source of these items. Sell these BPOs (by public sale please).

3) Diversify your holdings. I'm afraid managing such large sums your options to efficiently realize value are somewhat limited. You will be looking at some kind of BPO or production based income source.

4) Cut payout if needed.

5) Breath. You're in an environment where CCP could delete all of your assets tomorrow. The investors knew this going in.

Dal

Elias Riikonen
Ex Machina Libertas
Posted - 2008.03.15 02:47:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Nummb
I am not saying we should all bow to the ground and kiss Eefrit's arse, I am just saying that the whiners should be careful of what they ask for. If you are going to lose isk in this deal, what difference does it make whether its money lost now or money lost in a month through a liquidation process?

For investors to lose money in this (unless they agree to it), both of the following have to happen:

1) Eefrit not respecting the commitments he has signed on to, i.e. turning into a scammer. (Since he has the funds to pay back the bonds.)

2) Eefrit's starting statement in this thread "FIN is still secured in the financial sense of the word" turning out to be false, since if it is true, there exists sufficient collateral which Eefrit would be unable to scam even if he wanted to.

Originally by: Nummb
In the true sense of the game, you lost your money the instant you sent it to Eefrit. He just has been kind enough to slowly give some of it back to you over the last year in the form of dividends.

No, I've never received a single ISK from Eefrit, since I bought my shares later than when dividends were last paid out.

(Had I been there earlier to profit from FIN, I probably would agree to take some of the financial hit, even though I wouldn't need to according to the bond contract.)

FastLearner
Fury Holdings
Brutally Clever Empire
Posted - 2008.03.15 16:09:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Elias Riikonen
Originally by: Nummb
I am not saying we should all bow to the ground and kiss Eefrit's arse, I am just saying that the whiners should be careful of what they ask for. If you are going to lose isk in this deal, what difference does it make whether its money lost now or money lost in a month through a liquidation process?

For investors to lose money in this (unless they agree to it), both of the following have to happen:

1) Eefrit not respecting the commitments he has signed on to, i.e. turning into a scammer. (Since he has the funds to pay back the bonds.)

2) Eefrit's starting statement in this thread "FIN is still secured in the financial sense of the word" turning out to be false, since if it is true, there exists sufficient collateral which Eefrit would be unable to scam even if he wanted to.

Originally by: Nummb
In the true sense of the game, you lost your money the instant you sent it to Eefrit. He just has been kind enough to slowly give some of it back to you over the last year in the form of dividends.

No, I've never received a single ISK from Eefrit, since I bought my shares later than when dividends were last paid out.

(Had I been there earlier to profit from FIN, I probably would agree to take some of the financial hit, even though I wouldn't need to according to the bond contract.)


I agree with this. As far as I'm aware there's never been any maintained schedule of which secured assets belong to FIN and which are Eefrit's personal property - which is entirely fine as this is a bond. But, as it's a bond, no mechanism exists for reducing the agreed payout to investors. Eefrit's options are reduced to 3:

1. Keep paying out as promised,
2. Liquidate and refund all investments at full value,
3. Scam.

Arguably some compromise between 1 and 2 could be implemented - where some portion of investment is refunded leaving remaining assets able to support the promised payments on the residual. But any change in the terms of the bond should either be supported by 100% of investors OR accompanied by the option of a 100% refund available to those who decline the proposed new offer.

The advantage running a bond gives is that you have no obligation to produce financial reports or reveal details of assets held. In return for that you have no means of passing on any losses to investors. This HAS to be the case - as with no open accounting of assets/profits there is no way for those looking to invest or purchase bonds on the secondary market to value them. If bonds could devalue at will then you could end up in a situation where someone buys bonds in accordance with their declared value - then the next day the bond issuer halves their value claiming losses which were never publically disclosed.

The idea proposed by some that people shouldn't be held to their word or to guarantees is rubbish. A guarantee only has actual value when things go wrong. If guarantees can be waived when things go awry then they have absolutely no meaning or value.

Taloic
Caldari
Black Watch Regiment
Posted - 2008.03.15 20:15:00 - [67]
 

Edited by: Taloic on 15/03/2008 20:17:00
Originally by: Elias Riikonen


2) Eefrit's starting statement in this thread "FIN is still secured in the financial sense of the word" turning out to be false, since if it is true, there exists sufficient collateral which Eefrit would be unable to scam even if he wanted to.



______________________________________________________





While Fin may be secured Fin-U is not and every investor like myself who invested into this fund has known this from the beginning.

If the profits are not there Fin-U cannot continue to pay the minimum 7% and expect to survive.
If that means scaleing back to 3-4% and wait for the market to stabilize so be it.

If it is Liquadated at current prices full value cannot be payed out to each investor for their shares.
You would be looking at getting back about 70-80% of your initial investment rough estimate.
Which to be quite honest is still good considering Fin-U has almost payed itself off by gaining the initial invesment ammout through the past years payments for most of the investors.
You would still be turning a major profit at 70-80% buyout so I fail to see any issues this has been an investment not a get rich quick program.

While this is not completely aimed at the above individual who I quoted it stands to bear against some of the replies I have read.
Eefrit has no control of the market or the changes that CCP has implimented.
If the market stabilizes great the Funds can continue to mature.
If it dosent calling Eefrit a scammer or Fin/Fin-U scams is well out of line.
He has done and excellent job so far and if he wishes to continue im sure he will continue to do an excellent job.
But blameing him for market changes he had no control of is absurd look to CCP if you wish to file a complaint.

Peeveepee
Posted - 2008.03.15 20:39:00 - [68]
 

I was under the assumption that FIN-U has a guarantee minimum until JUN, hence I paid well over 30% premium over the face value of each bond I owned.

So, my question is: WHERE IS MY MONEY?


Eefrit
Eve Financial Services
Posted - 2008.03.15 20:42:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: FastLearner
As far as I'm aware there's never been any maintained schedule of which secured assets belong to FIN and which are Eefrit's personal property


In the interests of saving reading time let me suggest you think before posting. FIN's assets are LOCKED DOWN by the trustees in a corp they control 100% of. This has always been the case and I believe it is quite clear in the business plan that this would be the case.

Now, would you mind explaining how that is not keeping the assets separate?


Secondly, the "zero risk of diminishing returns" is explained in the business plan where assumptions are given. Given those assumptions the statement holds true and is in the context of the plan as a whole.


Finally, FIN *is* still secured in the financial sense of the word. It was secured against assets, and those exact assets are still held and therefore still secure it. The same way that a mortgage is secured against a physical property. The mortgage is still a secured investment for the lending institution regardless of whether or not the value of the property falls.


Let me make something else clear here. I am interested in feedback from investors. If you are not an investor then I honestly don't care what your opinion is because I don't in the least care about making you happy. I have always done my best to do what is best for the over 1,000 investors, and will continue to do that.

Sincerely,

Eefrit

cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2008.03.15 20:56:00 - [70]
 

I am only going to talk about FIN-U.

As far as I understand it, FIN-U is a bond and has a policy in place for the running of the bond.

Quotes from the FIN-U bonds sales.

Interest will be paid out based on the actual returns achieved. This is expected to be 6-8% once the business gets going. FIN-U will give a guaranteed minimum return of 7.0% until the end of July 2008.

FIN-U will offer a conditional buyback policy if after July 2008 the returns drop to below 6.0%. The conditions are as follows:
i) If the interest falls below 6% after July 2008, a thread with buyback reservations will be opened within a week from the end of the month that the interest droped to below 6%.
ii) That thread will be open for buyback reservations for a period of 2 weeks after which no more reservations will be accepted.
iii) FIN-U will buy back bonds at 95% (950,000 Isk) each at a rate of no more than 5% of the total investment per month until all bonds reserved for buyback are bought back.



Doesn't really matter what the opinion is about the bonds. Erifit has GUARANTEED a 7% per month payment on the bonds until July 2008, at that point you can sell the bonds back to Erifit at 95%.

As far as I see it, Erifit has a duty to keep paying out on FIN-U bonds, and then has to offer buyback.

Discussion about FIN is a different matter, but his hands are tied for FIN-U!!

Shadarle
Posted - 2008.03.15 21:14:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Eefrit
Let me make something else clear here. I am interested in feedback from investors. If you are not an investor then I honestly don't care what your opinion is because I don't in the least care about making you happy. I have always done my best to do what is best for the over 1,000 investors, and will continue to do that.



Ok, I would like you to tell me how many shares are required for you to care. If I buy a single Fin-U share does that make me an investor? If not I need to know what threshold is required.

FastLearner
Fury Holdings
Brutally Clever Empire
Posted - 2008.03.16 00:06:00 - [72]
 

Edited by: FastLearner on 16/03/2008 00:08:10
There's a useful hint as to the purpose of this forum - it's labelled "market discussions". If you (the op) don't want general discussion then I suggest you make an in-game mailing list and conduct your business there. That way you'll avoid the public discussing things.

On the issue of segregation of assets, is it your contention that all "secured" assets belong to FIN/FIN-U? My recollection is that you'd previously claimed to have used privately-owned assets as part of the scurity: if I'm wrong on that then fair enough.

How do you expect discussion of how FIn should proceed when you fail to list what assets FIN owns? We (the public who, assuming you didn't accidentally post to a public forum, would like to discuss the topic) have no idea what BPOs you actually own. We also don't know whether you bought the BPOs before CCP's announcement of invention or after it - something which is pretty key in assessing whether you just guessed wrong or were totally incompetent. Luckily the public (and your shareholders) can rest safe in the knowledge that you're a man of your word and won't try to weasel your way out of obligations by redefining what "guaranteed" and "zero risk" mean.

"I can guarantee I didn't have sexual relations with that woman and there's zero risk of me committing infidelity" - attributed to president Bill "Eefrit" Clinton.

Shadarle
Posted - 2008.03.16 00:24:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: FastLearner
How do you expect discussion of how FIn should proceed when you fail to list what assets FIN owns? We (the public who, assuming you didn't accidentally post to a public forum, would like to discuss the topic) have no idea what BPOs you actually own. We also don't know whether you bought the BPOs before CCP's announcement of invention or after it - something which is pretty key in assessing whether you just guessed wrong or were totally incompetent.


This has been something that has been bugging me as well.

This whole point of this post seemed to be a question on how to move forward... but really no one can give a full answer on that without knowing where things are now. Without knowing all the assets it's a bit tough to know if it's worth sticking it out or if it's time to cut the losses.

At the very least it seems it would be useful to know approximate prices payed for each bpo and what the bpo is worth today, it's monthly profit, if the component price is increasing or decreasing on the market, and any other useful information. The specific names could potentially be left off if you are that worried about it... though it really would help to be fully open about things if you want the best advice.

It would also be nice to know what percent of the total NAV is made up of T2 BPO's, Components, Minerals, POS's & labs/factories, POS fuel, etc. Further, the % of the total investment that the NAV represents. I'm guessing NAV is not 100% of invested ISK due to loss of T2 BPO value.


Without information like this how can anyone give you any true suggestions other than broad statements?

Kazzac Elentria
Posted - 2008.03.16 00:33:00 - [74]
 

Don't feel to bad about this... you are not the only one suffering the effects of the changes. Many of us are feeling the hit and having to restructure our business dealings with the changes in the last year, and honestly I felt that to have held out as long as you have despite the changes is a amazing feat showcasing your dedication to the project.

My suggestion would be to analyze all assets. Pick a break point for performance, liquidate everything underneath it and downsize/restructure everything above it.

At this point the sheer size is the problem.. first thing is first.. trim the fat and determine what meat is still worth eating.

Kasia Pelarar
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2008.03.16 01:05:00 - [75]
 

Okay, just as a favour to everyone who cannot find them, I am linking the original launch threads for the FIN and FIN-U bond threads;

Eve Financial Services (FIN) + EveSearch link

Eve Financial Services Unlimited (FIN-U)
+ EveSearch link

As I read them, they are guaranteed return bonds, meaning the only course of action is to liquidate if the rate of return is to change below the "absolute minimum" 4% (FIN) and "guaranteed minimum" 7% (FIN-U) - FIN should return the full 10,000 ISK per share/bond, FIN-U possibly. If anything other than this is being considered, I feel an option for anyone who wants to sell back shares/bonds at the original price (FIN) or best NAV per share/bond (FIN-U) must be made.

Personally, I would like them to continue as is Smile, but think the best thing would be for them to be wound up and if Eefrit feels like it after all the hassle, launch a new one - maybe even using EBank's new proposed system/exchange Smile I am sure that a large number of investors would be willing to swap old for new so that a complete liquidation of assets is not necessary.

Florio
Miniature Giant Space Hamsters
Posted - 2008.03.16 12:03:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Florio on 16/03/2008 12:06:15
As an investor I am content that Eefrit has used an eve-o board for this discussion, as I am interested to note other investors' comments. It is also interesting to note non-investor comments but I would not expect Eefrit to feel obliged to answer any of their questions (certainly not about BPOs owned etc).

As far as I am concerned, Eefrit had made it very clear what the risks of FIN were before I invested. There is nothing about this decrease in NAV that surprises me or was unknown to me.

It would be very sad to lose my income, as it has supported my PvP fun to date and I have no time to carebear as an alternative, but the astonishing return I have received (in RL terms) has been worthwhile.

To other investors, I would say look at the total return FIN has produced, rather than just income or just reduced capital return.

Flo'

Rix Machur
Gallente
Trader's Academy
Deadline.
Posted - 2008.03.16 15:44:00 - [77]
 

I think there needs to be some "out" for current investors. To me, the sensible thing seems to be to change the business plans and possibly consolidate the two into one. However, as someone with vested interest in both, I don't think it appropriate to force this on all investors. Both plans call for a 95% buyback (9,500 and 9,500,000) and this should be available as a minimum level. Of course, I'd like to see 100% buyback but the plans do not require this.

FIN-U did "guarantee" the minimum payout until the middle of this year so strictly by the plan, Eefrit doesn't have a choice but to continue paying. Speaking for myself, I'd be prepared to forgo this if I got all my isk back (with the option of investing it in some sort of FIN-2 instead). BUT I can't see this would be a bad sign for the market IMHO if someone who is considered as reliable and trustworthy as Eefrit fails to meet the obligations set down in the original bond.

I do think we should at least get some sort of statement of assets or NAV or somesuch so that we can see if FIN and FIN-U have sufficient assets to support the full value of investment (and perhaps even the dividends that were committed too). Provided that they do, the available options are a bit more straightforward.

The original plans didn't really contain a strategy for a patch totally FUBARing your plans, so any change must be done reasonably within the constraints of what was written down.

Rix.

Shadarle
Posted - 2008.03.16 16:27:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Rix Machur
The original plans didn't really contain a strategy for a patch totally FUBARing your plans, so any change must be done reasonably within the constraints of what was written down.


Lets be clear here. For an entire year now we have known T2 BPO prices were dropping and would continue to drop. The real question is when the BPO's were gotten, if it was before or after we knew things would be bad.

I have owned some T2 BPO's for almost an entire year now and their value is still almost the same now or is actually a bit more. These were semi-decent BPO's at the time, they are still semi-decent. They were picked specifically. I would hope anyone else picking BPO's at the time would have the same concerns about lost value. Obviously there was no way to know for sure what BPO's would drop, but you could take some pretty educated guesses.

Acting as though this all came totally out of the blue and no one had any clue T2 prices would get crushed is simply not accurate. Most of us knew for a long time prior to invention that prices wouldn't hold, even if it was just from the added T2 BPO lottery that was started.

People who invested should have known it was risky... but at the same time there was a guarantee in place, by eefrit, who most people would consider extremely trustworthy. That guarantee probably is the reason most people invested, it seems to be the case from what people posting here are saying.

Dal Thrax
Perkone
Posted - 2008.03.17 04:19:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Peeveepee
I was under the assumption that FIN-U has a guarantee minimum until JUN, hence I paid well over 30% premium over the face value of each bond I owned.

So, my question is: WHERE IS MY MONEY?




The same place the money I invested in Countrywide stock is I think.

Dal

cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2008.03.17 19:55:00 - [80]
 

Just realised that FIN-U hadn't paid the bond interest this month.

Is the bond in default?
Is the discussion a way of avoiding the "minimum 7% gauranteed payment until July 08"?

And before you ask, I have some FIN-U bonds (with two of my other ALTS).

Hexxx
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.03.17 20:14:00 - [81]
 

I helped FIN launch originally by assisting with the IPO documentation and giving advice.

I kick myself for not pressuring him to launch this as a share IPO and or a fixed rate Bond.

Variable rate Bonds are dangerous for IPO managers and investors. My only excuse was that I just didn't know any better at the time. ugh

Margret Putnam
Posted - 2008.03.18 14:26:00 - [82]
 

I am a typical stockholder.

I don't care what you do, as long as you continue to make me money.

Go forth and make me rich, ok?

4rc4ng3L
Gallente
C R Y O
Posted - 2008.03.18 14:53:00 - [83]
 

I have a large sum of isk invested in Eefrit. So far he has always been on the ball and i have never doubted him.

In the end however, for me, this is an investment. I generally dont worry to much about what you are doing or plan on doing, once i dont stand to lose anything financially.
I trust you'll make the right judgement.

Fikia
Caldari
Scarlet Blades
Posted - 2008.03.18 16:14:00 - [84]
 

Eefrit, do what ya want.. If I dun like your next post about what you're gonna do, I'll let you know for sure.

Regards,
Fikia

Toastysoul
Posted - 2008.03.19 00:40:00 - [85]
 

Eefrit,

I handed my isk over to you in the hopes that you'd do a better job making isk with it than I did. So far, that holds true. I believe you should do what you think best for all involved, as your judgment has successfully led us this far. In the end, if I lose my investment, I'm not really worse off than when I donated my isk to you in the first place, am I? I've taken a few hits before, and I won't grab a torch and pitchfork against you simply because CCP changed the rules of the game. Although as a player, I think it was time for a change. Invention was necessary moving forward in the game. As an investor, if you can somehow take advantage of the competitive forces that are giving you grief, then perhaps you can make Fin-U successful once again. Either way, thanks for putting so much work into this, and good luck.

cosmoray
Perkone
Posted - 2008.03.19 00:58:00 - [86]
 

I really struggle to understand the attitude of investors.
After they have handed over their cash, they don't seem to care whats happens to it.

Its your money, you earnt it.

I am not saying that Erifit is doing anything wrong with this discussion but it is this attitude thats lets IPO managers get away with running poor business's when they should be wound up and the money returned to shareholders.

The fact is that FIN-U is a bond that has a GAURANTEED payout until July 08, now its not being paid no one cares.

If you don't care what happens to your investments, you only motivate scammers and poor managers to keep your money!!

Katashi Ishizuka
Caldari
Tritanium Workers Union
Posted - 2008.03.19 01:36:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: cosmoray
I really struggle to understand the attitude of investors.
After they have handed over their cash, they don't seem to care whats happens to it.

Its your money, you earnt it.

I am not saying that Erifit is doing anything wrong with this discussion but it is this attitude thats lets IPO managers get away with running poor business's when they should be wound up and the money returned to shareholders.

The fact is that FIN-U is a bond that has a GAURANTEED payout until July 08, now its not being paid no one cares.

If you don't care what happens to your investments, you only motivate scammers and poor managers to keep your money!!


I care, which is why I bumped the late payout thread earlier. I'm still wondering where my dividends went, since I was promised 7% until July, and invested on that assumption. If those can't be paid FIN-U should be wound up and investor monies returned.

4rc4ng3L
Gallente
C R Y O
Posted - 2008.03.19 12:11:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: cosmoray
I really struggle to understand the attitude of investors.
After they have handed over their cash, they don't seem to care whats happens to it.

Its your money, you earnt it.

I am not saying that Erifit is doing anything wrong with this discussion but it is this attitude thats lets IPO managers get away with running poor business's when they should be wound up and the money returned to shareholders.

The fact is that FIN-U is a bond that has a GAURANTEED payout until July 08, now its not being paid no one cares.

If you don't care what happens to your investments, you only motivate scammers and poor managers to keep your money!!


I'm having a layed back attitude toward it because i still believe he is doing all he can to sort the situation.

If however he starts slacking u can be assured the attitude of investors here will change rapidly.

Imperius Blackheart
Caldari
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.03.19 13:29:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: cosmoray
I really struggle to understand the attitude of investors.
After they have handed over their cash, they don't seem to care whats happens to it.

Its your money, you earnt it.

I am not saying that Erifit is doing anything wrong with this discussion but it is this attitude thats lets IPO managers get away with running poor business's when they should be wound up and the money returned to shareholders.

The fact is that FIN-U is a bond that has a GAURANTEED payout until July 08, now its not being paid no one cares.

If you don't care what happens to your investments, you only motivate scammers and poor managers to keep your money!!


I've been a bond holder in both FIN and FIN-U for quite a while now, its made me literally billions in profit, especially when some tinfoil hatters went nuts on the forum and I picked up a ton of bonds for next to nothing and sold them on.

I believe I have had back my inital investment in both bonds by now, I'm well in the black, as will most bondholders be.

Eefrit has no control over CCP's actions or decisions, the plan we brought into is no longer as viable as it once was, as such he is having an open discussion with his generally happy customers regarding the situation.

Remember Eve is a game, it has to remain fun for everyone, I would love to see Eefrit continue the FIN products and as such I don't think rushing for my pitchfork and chasing him out of time would be conducive to me making more money, its more likely to make him feel like he can't be bothered.

Eefrit
Eve Financial Services
Posted - 2008.03.19 13:47:00 - [90]
 

Thank you all investors for your comments on this. As pointed out before I have no interest at all in what non-investors think as I have no responsibility towards them in any way.

I will be opening a new thread with the writeup shortly and will not be responding in this thread anymore.

I will close with an observation:

People who have achieved nothing, nor even tried to achieve anything in this game market wise, but who seem to have an obsession in hearing themselves speak should either actually do something, or realise that all talk and no action is a good way to demonstrate that you truly don't know as much as you like to think you do.

Sincerely,

Eefrit


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