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blankseplocked Dear Lord. Another fight ruined by lag. Nothing else matters CCP.
 
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Orgos Khenn
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.03.07 02:12:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Lindsay Fox
Thread fails due to blob.

Fixed.

Peekaboo Iseeyou
Trollops Are Really Terrifying
Posted - 2008.03.07 02:29:00 - [32]
 

So close, no matter how far
Couldn't be much more from the heart
Forever trusting who we are
So close, no matter how far
Couldn't be much more from the heart
Forever trusting who we are
and nothing else matters

Never opened myself this way
Life is ours, we live it our way
All these words I don't just say
and nothing else matters

Trust I seek and I find in you
Every day for us something new
Open mind for a different view
and nothing else matters

never cared for what they do
never cared for what they know
but I know

So close, no matter how far
Couldn't be much more from the heart
Forever trusting who we are
and nothing else matters

OMG METALLICA AGREES WITH YOU!

Gangus
Minmatar
Matari BackBone
Fate Weavers
Posted - 2008.03.07 02:35:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Peekaboo Iseeyou
random metallica lyrics[/b]


i was going to ask you to explain, but now i'm going to ask you not to.

Gangus

giles666
Minmatar
Antares Fleet Yards
SMASH Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.07 03:14:00 - [34]
 

The problem with people sprouting their "don't blob" rhetoric is that, with current game mechanics you HAVE to blob to achieve anything.

With POS warfare the way it is you need a big gang to take down even a moderately defended one. With capital ships in the picture you need to bring even more ships to kill them.

You can't take down a mothership or a titan with 30 ships, and there is no way that the other alliance is going to sit by and let you kill it when it can send 100 ships in support.

Same with defending you space. If someone comes and attacks me then I am going to throw every active pilot in the alliance into the defence.

What really ****s me is that there is a really simple solution to this. Change the F***ing game mechanics CCP. Make it far better off to field a few capitals with small support fleets.

Make it so I need to simultaneously attack 6 systems to take an outpost. Add line of sight to the game so the blob become a tactical no-no. Add sensor interference if you have more than 20 ships close together.

IT ISN'T HARD, JUST STOP SITTING ON YOUR HANDS AND DO SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It took me a few minutes to think of the above ideas and they would take a whole couple of hours to implement.

Problem solved.

Charles Kuralt
Caldari
Paladin Imperium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.07 03:41:00 - [35]
 

There have been many threads about this, but the point remains valid.

And this whole "don't blob then" argument is so outside of the reality of this game I'm forced to wonder what those saying it are playing. Eve has player controlled space. Players will form alliances to hold on to space. Larger ones will eat smaller ones. Larger and larger fleets will engage in combat.

It's not only the current lag that is a problem. It's the fact that EvE is expanding. And not everybody wants to be with the small gang of rifters forever. I'll go so far as too say most would like one of the big shiney carriers they've read about. So Capitol blobs will certainly be growing. Yet in the face of this lag continues to get worse and there is no solution on the horizon.

I agree with the op that nothing else really matters. Not new features. Not Ambulation. CCP must address this problem. It's stupid to keep adding features to a game that obviously isn't working now.

Ariel Dawn
Posted - 2008.03.07 05:00:00 - [36]
 

The problem is NOT the blobs or the players.

The problem is CCP's game design encouraging and requiring blobs (to take down poses, super-capitals) without providing the appropriate server stability and framework.

It is NOT the players fault in anyway whatsoever.

100% of the blame is on the design, servers, and CCP.

That said, they of course are doing their best to fix the situation.

Gut Punch
Shade.
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.03.07 05:34:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Ariel Dawn
That said, they of course are doing their best to fix the situation.


If you believe that, I've got a bridge to sell you. You can't be working to fix blobs and then continue with the current POS mechanics.

Lord Artemis
Dark Seraph
Order of the Black Cross
Posted - 2008.03.07 06:00:00 - [38]
 

Until blob tactics(bringing more is better) are not advantageous, your never going to fix the problem by reducing lag, only postpone it.

CCP makes XXX pilots in system lag free, Alliance A will bring XXX+1 Alliance B will bring XXX+2, repeat. :-)



Make blob tactics a worthless option.

Culdees
Posted - 2008.03.07 08:11:00 - [39]
 


just for fun-

possibly shielded torps or similar like wing commander. only caps ships can carry them and they can be shot down with a fast enough unit. maybe 10 hits to kill another cap ship or more for pos (very slow rate of fire).

pos shields must be destroyed first, but cap ship not.

flags on the pos to warn of cap ship fleet engagement. everyone selected gets mailed ingame and out. if the shield is large enough, there would be enough time for the corp/alliance to react. pos should have permanent cyno field, and a full set of jumpclones for its defenders.

opens up a lot of different ways to attack, and not always with numbers.

another way of dealing with blobs would be to have massive splash damage from ships being destroyed. ie a cap ship blowing up would wipe out battleships and lower within a small radius around it.

Ralagina
Caldari
ReviveX Fleet
White Noise.
Posted - 2008.03.07 08:21:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad
Solution: GTFO of your blob. You know what you're in for when you sign up for a massive 0.0 alliance, and you lose the right to complain about lag at that point. I'm no programmer, but common sense tells me that if there was a quick fix to lag problems, CCP would have done it already. I just stick to small gangs and it's never a problem.


Half the time you can't help it - if you're taking down an enemy POS, which has a billionmillion hit points, you NEED that many people to do it.

CCP put these game mechanics in, not us.

Agil TradeAlt
Posted - 2008.03.07 08:54:00 - [41]
 

Edited by: Agil TradeAlt on 07/03/2008 08:55:22
Edited by: Agil TradeAlt on 07/03/2008 08:54:19
100 vs 100 is usually fine.

100 vs 700 is laggy. Duh!

So insted of 700 vs 100, both sides should keep equal numbers and leave the rest in reserve. I.E keep 600 back and let the 100 v 100 battle happen. If you loose, send in next 100 and so on. That was the battle is pretty lag free, but usually the bigger blob in a fight has crapper and cheap ships (which is why they need to outnumber by so much in the first place). Yeah I know this has been posted about dozens of times before, but players, tell your allaince leaders to apply brains!

For example, not that long ago we read about 800 vs titan and 3 hours later the titan was still winning. System lagged so much from this 800 vs 1 (as thousands more were trying ot jump in) that the node eventually crashed. Most of the ships that fought the titan was stuff like frigs and other crap that would die in titan smartbomb range.

Did people use a couple of dreadnaughts, a Anti-Capital ship that CCP designed for this purpose? Heck no, just cheapist fit riters and the like so people lagged like hell. A small gang of 2-3 dreads can kill a titan that is locked down, but that would involve people spending isk. So insted, people bring 800+ cheap disposable t1 ships which dont work.



Mikal Drey
Atlas Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.07 09:56:00 - [42]
 

hey hey

****ed off with the lag To Be VERY ****ING HONEST !!!

That so called fight was totally runied by the lag. The grid failed to load, modules wouldnt activate, drones wouldnt launch, couldnt lock. Just plain *******s from CCP.

There was a big circle jerk session when they released the Yarrdware and a back patting session when need for speed was launched. But day after day its just crap.


Zombie Network
Perkone
Posted - 2008.03.07 10:25:00 - [43]
 

I have friends I have tried to get into Eve, they are interested in the PvP and political element of the game, but when I tell them about the lag and the boring grind that is POS warfare they just don't want to know any more.

The game mechanics require blobbing, blobbing causes lag. CCP either need to change the game mechanics or fix lag, however they don't appear to be working particularly hard on either because being able to walk around appears to be far more important to them.

Roxanna Kell
Anormalii S.A.
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2008.03.07 10:28:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Roxanna Kell on 07/03/2008 10:29:20
Hey Guys, LAG is not myth. Weather you are in Blobs, or not.

EVE should Handle 150 vs 150 lag less by now, But it can't. Blobs have been growing faster than CCP can deal with right now, Their incompetence has not been justified, so we still haven't got a clue of whats stopping another upgrade, or whatever else can be done. All the comunity need to know is what CCP is going to do about it, A dev blog, a thread. Anything to make it feel that our voice is being heard.
The silence is rather annoying tbh, and undeserved.


Hungo
Minmatar
Zor Industries
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2008.03.07 10:31:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Attonasi
I don't see any posts on lag so I am adding this one. Screw you if you think this is a dead horse because it obviously needs to be beaten some more. If you want people involved in the 0.0 community you have to deal with this. I have several friends that would play Eve the way it was meant to be played if you could have a decent 0.0 fleet fight.

I see whines and moans about a lot of crap here. But nothing is holding this game back than the complete inability to have a decent fleet fight. Nothing else is even close. We had 130 people in local in bwf 30 minutes ago and people couldn't load the grid for 10 minutes. I could, I got some kills, but 30-60 second module activation really sucks the fun out of it. I can not even imagine what it is like in delve.

The fight really went downhill when the fighters jumped in. We have had 200-300 people in local with little lag during a fleet fight, but as soon as the carriers/MOMs start popping drones the system we are in turns to ****. Please try looking at the assignment of fighters in particular.

Seriously, nothing else matters until this issue is fixed. Not even a skill queue which should be next...


They will never be able to fix the lag and ill tell you why. I run, programme and service servers all day everyday.

One server CANNOT run what CCP is trying to do. And this is why your so clled *omg 400k subs* is infact 40 odd thousand people worldwide with lots of accounts. The server simply cannot handle that kind of input and CCp dont give two ****s about anyone but themselves.

get used to it, ccp are pricks, period

Sha Dar
eXceed Inc.
Posted - 2008.03.07 10:48:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Sha Dar on 07/03/2008 10:50:34
Sarcasm

Dude, you really need to get in step with the CCP priority list before posting a request like that.

1. Use eve as a testbed for other games by introducing walking in stations then use the players a guinea pigs to iron out the inevitable bugs.

2. Introduce yet another level of fluff with so-called factional warfare instead of sorting out the interminable grind of POS warfare.

3. Pretty up the GFX some more to distract people from the crappy pvp experience.

4. Yet to be decided but we can come up with more distractions easily

/Sarcasm

Seriously, it "used" to be possible to have fleet fights a LOT bigger than this without even close to the lag that people experience nowadays, and that was BEFORE the multiple drone nerfs, sorry, "improvements", hell, just download some of the older eve videos to see it in action as it used to be.

Nasta443
Posted - 2008.03.07 10:57:00 - [47]
 

I remember, with a bit of sadness in my mind, the days not so long ago where cyno jammers, station services and company came in with the hope in hand that it would lead to smaller gang pos warfare.

Eventually it ended up as it naturally would. Sigh.

Tsu'ko
Viziam
Posted - 2008.03.07 11:14:00 - [48]
 

They are adding filters / tabs to the overview, so we don't have to show all the drones / wrecks / can's etc that show on screen anymore, maybe the drones will not need to be calculated as much as they are now then?
Think this may reduce client lag(your cpu lag) and server lag.

ThroatWarbler Mangrove
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.03.07 11:38:00 - [49]
 

The lag argument is a red-herring and insurmountable via throwing hardware or net-code at the issue. People will just field more and more ships to take up any new slack.

The problem here, as most people have pointed out, is a simple case of tactical application. The side with the largest force usually wins. The "few stood against many" thing is usually reserved for the movies. Therefore, the simplest, and the most powerful, military tactic is to bring more people into battle.

There needs to be an adjustment to encourage FCs to field a smaller force. Examples listed (that may have been already, sorry I haven't read the entire thread)

1) Reducing maximum gang size. Large forces would have to be split into multiple fleets, making them hard to manage.
2) Dividing command ship bonuses by the number of ships in a fleet. Command ship bonuses would be stacked to prevent large fleets fielding more of them to get around the problem.
3) Increase the lock time of members of large fleets (spin it as "magnetic interference from ships in your gang" or something). This doesn't have to be linear so that, over a certain number, lock times could increase dramatically.

The aim of the game is to ensure that increasing numbers over a certain amount results in a law of diminishing returns, and excessive numbers is actually a detriment. Unfortunately, such adjustments will radically affect game mechanics over a large number of areas, and they run contrary to military common sense. This is probably why they haven't been implemented yet.

Just my uninformed 2 cents Twisted Evil

Agil TradeAlt
Posted - 2008.03.07 11:49:00 - [50]
 

Edited by: Agil TradeAlt on 07/03/2008 11:50:50
Originally by: ThroatWarbler Mangrove
The problem here, as most people have pointed out, is a simple case of tactical application. The side with the largest force usually wins. The "few stood against many" thing is usually reserved for the movies. Therefore, the simplest, and the most powerful, military tactic is to bring more people into battle.
Twisted Evil


This used to be the case. Nowadays its fleets with around 80% ineffective ships(including shuttles, noobships etc) trying to out blob the opponant, since if both sides lag out, its a coin toss who wins. Such ineffective fleets would die normally without lag and rely upon lag and the "Coin toss" to win.

For example, if 700 vs 100 happens, and 95% of people lag out, then thats 40 people able to fight. Now comes the coin toss. If those 40 people are almost entirely within the 700 blobers, then they win scot free due to lag tactics since the other side has not loaded.

This is how people use massive blobs of useless ships to beat high quality ships. Insted of fighting with simaler number of equally high quality ships, they just spam with dozens of crap hoping to play the coin toss game, since higher numbers of crap would lose vs lower numbers of good fitted ships.

Uraga Kurofune
Posted - 2008.03.07 12:02:00 - [51]
 

I would like to see real fleet fights. Not that 300 vs 300 nonsense, but real 10000 vs 10000 fleet fights. That would be awesome.

Not that it will happen anytime soon but one can dream...

Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.03.07 12:13:00 - [52]
 

The lag isn't getting fixed. CCP is using mushroom tactics and not even bothering to buy new hardware to compensate for their inability to fix the code. Instead they spend 7-8m US$ on advertising to bring more players to EVE.

We might just as well all go back to Empire and run missions, which is what this game is apparently about.


Surreptitious
Isk Sink Inc.
Posted - 2008.03.07 13:00:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Ghostwarden
Originally by: Attonasi
Originally by: Karyuudo Tydraad
Solution: GTFO of your blob. You know what you're in for when you sign up for a massive 0.0 alliance, and you lose the right to complain about lag at that point. I'm no programmer, but common sense tells me that if there was a quick fix to lag problems, CCP would have done it already. I just stick to small gangs and it's never a problem.


67 of us vs. 98 of them. Massive blobs. I apologize on behalf of our massive alliance for making our gang counts confusingly large for you. Embarassed

If this is your "solution" then make more space so we can spread out more or make the current ******ed and useless 0.0 systems nobody ever uses useful. Otherwise your solution is a ******ed flame. Rolling Eyes


Ok....lets examine your complaint here in comparison with some other MMO's Ive had experience with...

you had 165 players (not including thier drones which really cound as a seperate entity that the computer has to control)in a fleet combat with 200-300 in local....hmmm, in Everquest this would be impossible and its a sharded game...last time I checked there was 100 player cap for each grid.....and from what I've been told WOW, Middle Earth and most of the other MMO's are set up this way IF Im not completely mistaken.

Now, this is not intended as a flame but I dont think Im too far off the mark when I say that CCP is very interested in the problem and are doing their best to fix it. Your going to have to be patient just like the rest of us when it comes to lag.

Sorry dude.

Ghost


Thats not how WOW works. I am routinely in fights much larger than the "100 cap" you reference. And not only do the animations and graphics render well and timely but there is literally no lag. I push a button in the middle of the crowd and within 1 second the action takes place. Why cant EVE do that or even come close. With EVE you push a button and maybe, maybe 1-2 minutes later it works.

And you say CCP is very interested in fixing the problem then I would argue they either have incredibly inept people working on it or are just flat out lying. I personally have been waiting almost 4 years now for it to get better. The scary part is it has only gotten worse.

Syrup

Ki An
Gallente
The Really Awesome Players
Posted - 2008.03.07 13:11:00 - [54]
 

The way I see it is that you have a choice of how to play this game. If you chose the mega-blob-alliance route then you have to expect being lagged out. If you don't want that, chose another way to play the game. Small gang pvp is entirelly possible in Eve, and it's seldome ruined by lag.

I can see CCP's problem with this "fix the lag ffs" argument. I mena, take a look at Jita. It became a huge trade hub. Lots of people went there. It started to lag. People whined. CCP threw hardware at it. More people came. It lagged again. People whined more. CCP threw more hardware at it. More people came... etc ad infinitum.

Fixing the blob by fixing game mechanics seem to be the only way, but that's going to have serious repercussions on other aspects of the game. As such, it's going to take a looooong time to fix as CCP has to make a lot of predictions and changes elsewhere to make it work.

Lazuran
Gallente
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.03.07 13:41:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Ki An

I can see CCP's problem with this "fix the lag ffs" argument. I mena, take a look at Jita. It became a huge trade hub. Lots of people went there. It started to lag. People whined. CCP threw hardware at it. More people came. It lagged again. People whined more. CCP threw more hardware at it. More people came... etc ad infinitum.



This is because lag has been an obstacle in the game for so long and when it improves, people actually begin to play the game the way the game design allows and mandates it.

Botched trade hubs like Jita are a logical consequence of all of these together:
- no globally visible market offers
- WTZ
- now way to obtain a purchased item without going to the market hub

So if the Jita blobbing is a problem, there are easy ways to counter this (Interbus). It just has to be done and CCP is notoriously lazy about implementing serious anti-blob measures, while they are surprisingly fast at implementing bugs and features that cause more lag (gang mechanics etc.).

One thing is certain though: don't confuse the technical reasons for lag and the reasons that lie in the game's design with the players' behaviour. People play the game like they can/want to and if you allow a certain kind of gameplay, it's stupid to complain if it causes lag (unless you want to argue that the intention of the players is to cause lag!). It is a really poor excuse for fanbois and CCP alike to say that lag won't be fixed because people are playing the game. Damn customers, eh?

How annoying it must be when you design and sell a service and then your customers actually try to use it. :-/




Sha4d13
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2008.03.07 13:50:00 - [56]
 

The whineage in this thread is immense- and is leading to some deeply illogical thinking. The ideas that

(1) CCP dont want to fix the lag

or

(2) they should forego all profit and bankrupt the company to build the worlds biggest computer to fix it...

Are both ridiculous.

Doc Fury
Caldari
Posted - 2008.03.07 13:52:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Sha Dar
Edited by: Sha Dar on 07/03/2008 10:50:34
Sarcasm

Dude, you really need to get in step with the CCP priority list before posting a request like that.

1. Use eve as a testbed for other games by introducing walking in stations then use the subscribers players as guinea pigs to iron out the inevitable bugs.

2. Introduce yet another level of fluff with so-called factional warfare instead of sorting out the interminable grind of POS warfare.

3. Pretty up the GFX some more to distract people from the crappy pvp experience.

4. Yet to be decided but we can come up with more distractions easily

/Sarcasm



When I was a software engineer we used to call this "putting lipstick on the pig" and we usually had to do it right before the money people or new clients came round for a look-see. #1 is sadly 100% spot-on.

Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.03.07 14:04:00 - [58]
 

Lol, All you do in eve is dependent on your onboard ship pooters, if you load enough crap in any program its going to lag, but it can be seen as part of the role play, more targets actually means that your ships battle computer stacks have to work harder tracking all the objects, as they are all running code written by the eve equilevent of MS its a given that they will fall over when overwhelemed by data that it can't process fast enough.

So Lag can be considered a game feature until our ships internal systems and subsystems are built to higher standards, stay out of the blob your ship systems was not made to handle it.

There lag explained by blaming the ship builders and their subsequent pilots not reading the manuals on the limits of the onboard computing capacity.

Gimpb
The Scope
Posted - 2008.03.07 14:13:00 - [59]
 

Area effects are something that's been used by other games to spread people out, perhaps that was one of the reasons for implementing doomsday weapons.

One thing that might could be done is to implement a T2 BS class that has a special ability or two designed to work well against blobs. It seems like the marauders are mission ships and the black ops ships are for small scale messing around... a T2 BS designed for straight-up big fights might fit in well.

They have talked a good bit about how they're working to deal with the lag so I don't think it's something they're ignoring. More like something they're just finding challenging I'd imagine.

BhallSpawn
Posted - 2008.03.07 14:14:00 - [60]
 

I agree completely with the OP
walking in stations, planet combat, new shader model 3 grahpics, faction warfare, new missions, more content....

take all of that away and FIX THE LAG.

It's obvious CCP is more interested in profits than working on the lag issue.
they put themselves in steam.
trying to get more subscribers for a game that already can't handle the 30k that play at one time now.

It's pretty sad to say the least.
Once jumpgate evolution hits the market.. if its any good, and if you can actually fight in a fleet with little lag. your gonna see people join that game in droves.

Eve with fleet battles with little lag would be a glorious thing.
But shiney new grahpics and more and more features is what sells.

fixing bugs and making the game stable isn't an advertising slogan.



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