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Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2008.02.22 00:04:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 22/02/2008 00:05:13
No one who wants a bigger reward seeks out bigger risks. Everyone is seeking just the opposite: the sure thing, Easy Street. This is true in RL and it is true in EVE. Risk versus Reward is a talking-head talking-point, which no one seriously believes in. The best reward is the one that comes with little or no effort.

I expect that all the threads about fixing low sec and mission hubs will go away now. Wink

Tamia Clant
New Dawn Corp
New Eden Research.
Posted - 2008.02.22 00:06:00 - [2]
 

So what you're saying is that we should have arkonor and officer spawns in Jita?

Guillame Herschel
Gallente
NME1
Posted - 2008.02.22 00:07:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Tamia Clant
So what you're saying is that we should have arkonor and officer spawns in Jita?


No, I'm saying that's what people would rather have, so arguments about risk vs. reward are usually made in bad faith.

NoNah
Posted - 2008.02.22 00:19:00 - [4]
 

Odd.

I want risk, rewards come second. If that wasn't true I'd be playing Hello kitty online. Risk is the reason I enjoy EVE, not rewards. When I have risks - do I take precautions to avoid it? Of course, that's what makes it a game rather than a spoonfed stream of pretty colors.

Lindsay Fox
Blue Midget Corporation
Posted - 2008.02.22 00:21:00 - [5]
 

You can't make absolute statements like 'no-one who wants a bigger reward seeks out bigger risks'...that's just *******s. If that were true, nobody would have invented base-jumping and the financial markets would consist only of index-matched funds.

Clearly some people in life (a minority) get such a buzz from extreme activities that they are prepared to risk their own life. I would suggest the Eve playerbase contains people of that type in similar proportions to real life.

Unfortunately, in the PvE realm the game doesn't really offer anything for them.

Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
Posted - 2008.02.22 00:52:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 22/02/2008 00:05:13
No one who wants a bigger reward seeks out bigger risks. Everyone is seeking just the opposite: the sure thing, Easy Street. This is true in RL and it is true in EVE. Risk versus Reward is a talking-head talking-point, which no one seriously believes in. The best reward is the one that comes with little or no effort.


Even as a generality, I don't think that tells quite enough of the story in EVE. I'd say--as a huge generalization--that we work to minimize risks and maximize rewards (Usually in that order) but we also want to fool other people and ourselves into thinking we're doing something riskier than we are.

That's why we're not playing Hello Kitty. No hardcore risk/reward harsh universe street cred. :P

Capperhad
Minmatar
SlingDraw Corp
Posted - 2008.02.22 00:52:00 - [7]
 

its actually quite simple: there is no risk, there is only certainty. Take the low-sec missionrunner as an example. sooner or later he WILL be probed out and exploded. Now its worth that risk if the reward is proportionally greater than the "easy street" high-sec mission. But it has to be by at least an order of magnitude for most to do it. Whatever the mission ship and setup, it'll only take a little more time running high-sec missions to replace it. And you wont be probed down and killed either.

Point is, no matter what ship you fly, and what Pve/earning tactic you use, if it touches low-sec/0.0, sooner or later, and usually sooner, it'll cost your ship. Which is fine, if the earning potential is worth it. At the moment, for the most part, it isn't.

Ultimately, being a financially successful in eve does not rely on the big payout, the "but there are officer lootz!!" or the chance to find some hefty plex, but on the continued small successes, the income you can count on.

Tesl
Posted - 2008.02.22 00:56:00 - [8]
 

Well, until i get my skills up, no reward is worth the risk.

I suppose it depends on how long you have been playing and the wealth you have.

You take more risks if you don't mind losing a ship or too,

But if you cant afford to lose the things due to risks, why risk them in the first place?

makes perfect sense to me. Rolling Eyes

Tellenta
Gallente
versic LLC
Posted - 2008.02.22 01:27:00 - [9]
 

Risk vs reward is actually quite real. For example when I'm just dorking around in eve with out a goal I'll run a mission or two. I used to run missions in lowsec. However after one patch finding my domi became easier. The first time I discovered that My domi got crushed hard, that made me sad Crying or Very sad. proper standing were set to alert me of said miscriants in system. and started aligning in missions, no big deal just lengthend the amount of time spent doing mission due to needing to approach the gate. Then a trend became apparent. the person that probes me would enter the system, 1 to 5 minutes later local jumps and they would show up at my mission, not just once, but every time. The risk of using a Domi was not worth the reward from the missions, and therefore I moved my mission domi elsewhere into highsec. Though you won't find me making threads to whine about risk v rewards because I'm torn, the carebear part of me that runs missions hates it, and the part of me that loves the changes to probing because it allows you to find people easier when you want them dead. So, welp, ugh

Brutoth Tain
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2008.02.22 01:34:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Guillame Herschel

I expect that all the threads about fixing low sec and mission hubs will go away now. Wink



Im sure because you say so they will.

And yes Risk vs reward is bullcookies see my sig.

Joe Starbreaker
M. Corp
Posted - 2008.02.22 01:50:00 - [11]
 

I'm not sure what you're saying.

Some people realize ISK is just meaningless electronic videogame money and are far more attracted to the "risk" from PVP and operating in lowsec. Other people think that being podded is just meaningless electronic videogame death and are more attracted to the "reward" of building up a huge ISK hoard in highsec. Practically, neither type is risking anything (except sleep, and their love lives) and in general, both types find the game rewarding. So what's the big deal?

Pantaloon McPants
Posted - 2008.02.22 01:57:00 - [12]
 

Guys, we need to move all of eve into low sec! its the only way!!! only then will everyone realize what they are missing. Infact, we need everyone in one system - this is why eve is so hardcore and not meant for anyone who cant peel an onion without crying.

Hippy Dave
Posted - 2008.02.22 02:13:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Hippy Dave on 22/02/2008 02:19:41
Well said Joe....
The only risk is your significant other getting ****ed off and leaving you for someone who doesn't play Eve Shocked

Ludicrous argument Pantaloon McPants..
Anyone with half a brain cell realises that EVE like the real world is an organic universe which requires all its components to work properly.

For instance - High sec traders fuel the economy and supply R&D types who turns them into equipment and transport said goods to low sec/0.0 for those unable to enter High sec space.
Without those traders and R&D guys sitting around in high sec there'd be no ships or equipment to supply you, and for that matter without the mining care bears thered be huge mineral shortages, without both groups there'd be no economy, well not a healthy one anyway.

The Socialworker
Minmatar
The Socialworkers
Posted - 2008.02.22 02:59:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Tesl
Well, until i get my skills up, no reward is worth the risk.

I suppose it depends on how long you have been playing and the wealth you have.

You take more risks if you don't mind losing a ship or too,

But if you cant afford to lose the things due to risks, why risk them in the first place?

makes perfect sense to me. Rolling Eyes


When my character was 3 or 4 weeks old I lost the best part of all I had podkilling a character of similar age, under the wrath of low sec sentry guns, just to get 'even'. That made perfect sense to me, so I guess it depends on your perspective.

Vitrael
Reaper Industries
Cry Havoc.
Posted - 2008.02.22 03:25:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 22/02/2008 00:05:13
No one who wants a bigger reward seeks out bigger risks. Everyone is seeking just the opposite: the sure thing, Easy Street. This is true in RL and it is true in EVE. Risk versus Reward is a talking-head talking-point, which no one seriously believes in. The best reward is the one that comes with little or no effort.

I expect that all the threads about fixing low sec and mission hubs will go away now. Wink


Risk vs. Reward has nothing to do with what risks pilots want to take, it has to do with what risks they have (or should have) to take.

Kyra Felann
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2008.02.22 03:28:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Guillame Herschel
No one who wants a bigger reward seeks out bigger risks. Everyone is seeking just the opposite: the sure thing, Easy Street. This is true in RL and it is true in EVE. Risk versus Reward is a talking-head talking-point, which no one seriously believes in. The best reward is the one that comes with little or no effort.


It's not about what people want, it's what is good game design.

Nummb
Amarr
Posted - 2008.02.22 19:00:00 - [17]
 

Risk vs. Reward

I am always wondering about this statement, what exactly is the reward pirates get for gate camping and destroying every ship that comes through the gate? I have never sat on a gate, but I hardly believe that they can make as much isk doing this as they could from running a mission or mining.

So, maybe the reward is not driven by an incentitive to get more isk. Maybe the reward is the personal joy of engaging in PvP. But that is also a myth as 99% of PvP fights (excluding fleet warfare) are extremely one sided and always result in one ship being attacked by several with absolutely no chance of a fair fight or a positive outcome for the sole pod pilot.

What risk did the pod pilot make in jumping into Low Sec in the first place that could have given him enough rewards to justify the jump if he was not part of the gate camping blob? That is the real question.

I ask you this, would any of you move your family into a townhouse on Georgia Ave in Washington D.C.? For those of you who are not lucky enough to live near the US Capital, Georgia Ave is quite possibly the most dangerous street in the city. Parts of the street are nice, there is a nice college and two hospitals. Other parts of the street are lined with barber shops, liquor stores and 7-11's with bars on the windows. The unemployment rate of residents living on and near Georgia Ave is over double the national average. There are gangs, drug dealers and homeless people lined up along the road and in the alleys leading towards the rest of upper North East D.C. So I ask you, would you move your family to this street? What possible reward is worth the risk of getting shot, mugged, molested, threatened and or killed on a daily basis? To me, driving through D.C. is like flying through Low Sec. I only do it when I absolutely have to, I lock all my doors, I ignore red lights and I have my 9mm pistol and two knives on the passenger seat ready just in case. I don't view driving in D.C. to be worth the rewards of, well hell there are not to many rewards for driving in D.C. in the first damn place, it's crowded, there is no where to park and the metro is easier.

That's it, we need a metro in EveExclamation We need a way to safely move into low sec without having to fly through the gates. This means that you can not take your ship or any mods, but you can take isk and easily buy a ship once you get to Low Sec. The gate camps are the worst part about Low Sec, remove that threat and more people will travel in and population will boom. There is a reason more people take the metro into D.C. than drive, maybe we should apply the same methods in game.

Letouk Mernel
Caldari
Posted - 2008.02.22 19:08:00 - [18]
 

They can make more than a mission. People either have expensive T2 modules (cargo expanders, T2 weapons, faction ammo, rare plates or shield boosters, etc) fitted, or are carrying stupid amounts of valuable cargo in weak ships. Noob frigates have been used to carry implants, for example, or blueprints.

Grendelsbane
Posted - 2008.02.22 19:27:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 22/02/2008 00:05:13
No one who wants a bigger reward seeks out bigger risks. Everyone is seeking just the opposite: the sure thing, Easy Street. This is true in RL and it is true in EVE. Risk versus Reward is a talking-head talking-point, which no one seriously believes in. The best reward is the one that comes with little or no effort.

I expect that all the threads about fixing low sec and mission hubs will go away now. Wink



I hope the winky denotes sarcasm.

"Risk vs reward" in the real world isn't something that "people believe in", it's a fact of life, and often even a physical law. Hence, game devs try to duplicate it in their simulation.

As you point out, everyone WANTS the opposite, but they do not always get it - in real life, pesky things like scarcity and the laws of thermodynamics tend to prevent people from doing, let alone spamming, an easy highly profitable action, and in the game world the devs do the same, lest Hulk BPO's become a navigational hazard in Jita.

DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
Posted - 2008.02.22 19:31:00 - [20]
 

You must not be very intelligent, Guillame Herschel, because you just sided with all the people using Risk vs Reward in their arguments. People do seek the path of least resistance. What exactly are you trying to say, by calling it a BS theory? That you can have a meaningful game without consequence?

The last time I checked, SISI was far less popular than TQ.


Rhaegor Stormborn
BURN EDEN
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.02.22 20:38:00 - [21]
 

Without risk the rewards mean nothing.

Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
Posted - 2008.02.22 20:46:00 - [22]
 

I played Risk once.

It wasn't all that rewarding... Neutral



Alora Venoda
GalTech
Whiskey Creek Alliance
Posted - 2008.02.22 20:54:00 - [23]
 

Well the massive alliances that control whole regions do have all kinds of rewards and very little risk...

It's somewhat unfair to everyone else - since as a result, only a very small portion of the playerbase gets to experience those massive deadspace complexes, and the other fun things that you can find in 0.0 when you aren't playing blob wars, or having to constantly worry about roaming gank squads running around.

James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2008.02.22 21:05:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Guillame Herschel
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 22/02/2008 00:05:13
No one who wants a bigger reward seeks out bigger risks. Everyone is seeking just the opposite: the sure thing, Easy Street. This is true in RL and it is true in EVE. Risk versus Reward is a talking-head talking-point, which no one seriously believes in. The best reward is the one that comes with little or no effort.

I expect that all the threads about fixing low sec and mission hubs will go away now. Wink



Actually I _do_ want the reward. I want there to be more reward for me taking the risk, and so all these gutless cowards get less.

I want a bigger slice of pie, and I'm not afraid to fight for it.

DragonRiderTao
Posted - 2008.02.22 21:15:00 - [25]
 

To experience growth. Invest for wealth. We shall experience mutual fertility.

Gimpb
The Scope
Posted - 2008.02.22 21:16:00 - [26]
 

Every time someone starts a business irl they accept the higher risk hoping to get the higher reward.

... and there are an awful lot of businesses in the world these days.

Cygnus Scott
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.02.22 21:28:00 - [27]
 

What real risk is there in Gate camping? What risk is there in attacking some guy mining in a mining ship? None, so stop lying.

The risk is not there. It has been calculated and mitigated. Now if every so often (randomly of course) CONCORD would show up and WTFPWN anyone near the gate with an aggression timer or a sec rating below -5 then there might be some risk. Put roving patrols in low sec, ones that randomly pop up and enforce the "high sec" rule of law for 10 minutes to an hour each day. That way there is risk for Pirates as well, they never know exactly when CONCORD might show up and blow them up.

Also what is with -9.5 character being able to sit in high sec without being shot at by the sentry guns? Seems to me sec rating is broken.

Corstaad
Minmatar
Vardr ok Lidskjalv
Posted - 2008.02.22 21:42:00 - [28]
 

Stop comparing EvE to RL. This is a game and I'm not going to roll thru the alleys looking fo pew pew. People do it because its easy money not because its easy.

Savant Hayt
Minmatar
The Reich
Posted - 2008.02.22 21:50:00 - [29]
 

Everybody seeks bigger reward, they must accept bigger risks. If you want smaller risks, you must settle for smaller rewards. Do I get any isk for slamming your theory?

2/10, even trolls should use logic.


Finanche
Minmatar
Salus Novus
United Front Alliance
Posted - 2008.02.22 22:26:00 - [30]
 

Risk is all about reward.

I hate the adage, "only fly what you can afford" -- such BS. Go for it, if you lose it, the next time you'll be more prepared.

Always go large - as I like to say, "I'd rather die on my feet, then stand on my knees"



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