open All Channels
seplocked Market Discussions
blankseplocked Can there be a formal futures exchange?
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic

Uilliam Nebel
Amarr
13th Udorian Rangers
Posted - 2008.02.18 15:02:00 - [1]
 

I have been reading through the stickys, and see a lot of great information for stocks, and for direct trades between two parties. But I was wondering if it was possible to set up an actual exchange for futures on things like minerals, and other resources? Or if it has been tried? Thanks.

Brisco Smiley
Peppermint Bay Trading Company
Posted - 2008.02.18 15:51:00 - [2]
 


Uilliam Nebel
Amarr
13th Udorian Rangers
Posted - 2008.02.19 00:20:00 - [3]
 

Thank you very much.

Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
Posted - 2008.02.19 14:15:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Brisco Smiley
http://www.eveindex.cfdeveloper.co.uk/


Unfortunately, the project will be shut down by the end of Feb.



Uilliam Nebel
Amarr
13th Udorian Rangers
Posted - 2008.02.19 14:37:00 - [5]
 

Well that is sad to hear, it looked really promising has I went over the web site. But thanks for letting me know.

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2008.02.19 16:14:00 - [6]
 

This is something that has personally interested me since I was valuing and auditing hedge funds before I was a dev Very Happy We have talked a little in the past about a futures market and subsequent iterations delivering options.

The difficulty comes in mainly the game mechanics needed with marking to market (huge proc in itself that would extend dt to much longer periods). Then creating a margin call transaction for the player to pay of that, then the settlement of the future (delivery or expiry) and essentially translating a very complex and regulated process into simple mechanics eve uses without taking the whole of our programming team to do it and a good portion of our db.

So, it stays on our 'would be cool if we could' list, but the technical resources needed to implement it always mean it would realistically have a low priority especially given the limited number of players that would use the futures and derivatives market. Though we can at least look at a standard forward contract perhaps which would be a much simpler extension of the current contracts.

Hopefully that gives you some insight as to why there is not one in eve yet.

edit: there is of course nothing preventing one of you operating your own exchange if you wanted to go to those lengths as the website linked above tried to. The main issue you would want to resolve is also the first purpose of the exchange before speculation which is business risk mitigation between primary producers and manufacturers who would offer the original contracts and a real desire or need for that to happen outside standard market buy orders.

The operator would then act as a trusted counterparty with margin call calculations based on market export data like that from eve-central for eg.

Hexxx
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.02.19 18:56:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
This is something that has personally interested me since I was valuing and auditing hedge funds before I was a dev Very Happy We have talked a little in the past about a futures market and subsequent iterations delivering options.

The difficulty comes in mainly the game mechanics needed with marking to market (huge proc in itself that would extend dt to much longer periods). Then creating a margin call transaction for the player to pay of that, then the settlement of the future (delivery or expiry) and essentially translating a very complex and regulated process into simple mechanics eve uses without taking the whole of our programming team to do it and a good portion of our db.

So, it stays on our 'would be cool if we could' list, but the technical resources needed to implement it always mean it would realistically have a low priority especially given the limited number of players that would use the futures and derivatives market. Though we can at least look at a standard forward contract perhaps which would be a much simpler extension of the current contracts.

Hopefully that gives you some insight as to why there is not one in eve yet.



I believe that is the first time in the history of EVE that a Dev has discussed the feasability (or existance) of an advanced market tool.

Wow.

Dreysine
Precision Collision
ISK Six
Posted - 2008.02.19 20:11:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis

edit: there is of course nothing preventing one of you operating your own exchange if you wanted to go to those lengths as the website linked above tried to. The main issue you would want to resolve is also the first purpose of the exchange before speculation which is business risk mitigation between primary producers and manufacturers who would offer the original contracts and a real desire or need for that to happen outside standard market buy orders.

The operator would then act as a trusted counterparty with margin call calculations based on market export data like that from eve-central for eg.



What, in your perception, were the failings of Eve Index? I looked over the site and, though i am not versed in real-world futures trading practices, it did seem like he covered the 2 concerns you mention above ( 1.speculation and 2.mitigation between primary producers and manufacturers)

Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Posted - 2008.02.19 21:23:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
So, it stays on our 'would be cool if we could' list, but the technical resources needed to implement it always mean it would realistically have a low priority especially given the limited number of players that would use the futures and derivatives market. Though we can at least look at a standard forward contract perhaps which would be a much simpler extension of the current contracts.


It would be a bit less hazardous to trade shares with strangers if we could use contracts - the only option at the moment that offers any degree of security is to appoint a third party broker. If it's not too much work, please implement this!

CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2008.02.20 09:52:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Dreysine

What, in your perception, were the failings of Eve Index? I looked over the site and, though i am not versed in real-world futures trading practices, it did seem like he covered the 2 concerns you mention above ( 1.speculation and 2.mitigation between primary producers and manufacturers)


It did not really fail to provide a service, rather I think personally trying to provide an exchange, pricing, margin call calculation/transaction and settlement service alongside trust replacing many of the normal RL regulatory mechanisms within eve. It would be a huge amount of effort far above and beyond simple asset valuation and bond sales currently run by many players. The effort required to maintain the service when coupled with a rather low demand for it, would not really make it a worthwhile adventure in the end IMO given the limited audience for what is a time intensive process. But I would love to be proved wrong on this.

Also to reinforce my previous post about whether or not eve really would need a futures service for manufacturers or producers given the current volatilities between primary or secondary producer markets and normal use of buy orders. The complexity and additional understanding needed by the average player would entail a fairly limited use, never mind consideration of derivatives market based on these.

Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro

It would be a bit less hazardous to trade shares with strangers if we could use contracts - the only option at the moment that offers any degree of security is to appoint a third party broker. If it's not too much work, please implement this!


A share trading contract is being considered Smile

EBANK Ricdic
Eve-Tech Savings n Loans
Posted - 2008.02.20 10:35:00 - [11]
 

Thanks for your posts Chron.

Quick question. What are the chances of getting share tracking into the picture? Currently it's impossible to track share movement (ie if you send me 100 CCP shares I can't see that you really sent them and you can't see that I really recieved them)?

I only ask as that paves the way for things like API integration and the likes opening up a whole lot of possibilities to player added financial tracking software.

Thanks again.

LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
Posted - 2008.02.20 10:36:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
A share trading contract is being considered Smile

I beg you Chronotis. Can you guys also make us able to track shares trough the API? Right now, shares transactions arent tracked trough the journal. Thus the API wont notice them.

This keeps us from making some pretty damn cool stuff.

Treelox
Posted - 2008.02.20 11:05:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
A share trading contract is being considered Smile


That would be wonderful, especially if share would log in the journal or transaction logs of our wallets some how too.


:)

Professor Bunsen
Optech Scientific
Posted - 2008.02.20 11:58:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Professor Bunsen on 20/02/2008 12:05:51
Originally by: Dreysine

What, in your perception, were the failings of Eve Index? I looked over the site and, though i am not versed in real-world futures trading practices, it did seem like he covered the 2 concerns you mention above ( 1.speculation and 2.mitigation between primary producers and manufacturers)


My view as to why Eve-Index did not take off as hoped is that there was a simple lack of demand. MD enthusiasts are a fairly small subset of the Eve population itself, amongst even that economically minded group there are a only a few who think futures are "cool" and even fewer who actually wished to use it.

For those (vast majority) who do not understand from RL knowledge how options work there is the effort required to do some thinking and read 6 or 7 web pages to understand things which is a barrier to growth.

Technically the market worked fine and the effort required to upload a few logs a day to refresh the prices was trivial, if there had been enough people using it. Although it was a useful exercise for me to brush up on my ColdFusion skills, the main benefit has been in reflecting on the importance of market research in my RL business. This Eve project cost me about 100 hours of playtime and I learnt skills and quite enjoyed solving the puzzles. The RL lesson "Don't take time and effort to design something "cool" that there's insufficient demand for" i.e market research your hunches, especially if it's an area you are enthusiastic about, is a RL lesson that's cheap at twice that price.

Oh, and share transaction logging in journal Very HappyVery HappyVery Happy would simply and almost effortlessly for CCP open up the player driven ability to run exchanges, and other token based developments.

Marie deMedici
Posted - 2008.02.23 16:11:00 - [15]
 

Good start would be shares trackin+ shares tradeable via contracts and contracts which are tradeable by contracts. This would already enable a lot of the financial instruments we are lacking. Also a simple "interest" entry in a contract would be nice.

Daeva Vios
Posted - 2008.02.23 17:18:00 - [16]
 

I really like the idea of letting people trade contracts. It may be a long way off, but it's very appealing to me Very Happy

Simply having the ability to track share transfers would be a big step in the right direction.

Thanks for showing us we're not ignored entirely, Chronotis Cool

Morwagorion
Deep Space Gladiators
Posted - 2008.02.24 10:44:00 - [17]
 


i would like an ingame shares market tools,

it can be similar to the actual market (=easy to do)


Semblence
Posted - 2008.02.25 02:38:00 - [18]
 

I want CDOs and credit default swaps, to bring down the entire economy!


Durkanis
Jump Speed Deliveries
Posted - 2008.02.25 07:59:00 - [19]
 

Very nice to hear from a developer what ideas have been brewing. And I understand it takes too much effort to create a full exchange in Eve itself. But I do wonder whether it would be easy to provide enablers, like the idea of tracking share transfers and providing share transfer contracts.
Wouldn't it be possible with a few more of such changes to allow players to set things up more easily on their own?

It is sad to see the futures exchange closing before I could even participate. But it is great to see that I am not alone in thinking that a futures exchange or any such idea might be useful.

I have actually been thinking of connecting some primary and secondary producers myself through a free form futures contract. Don't know how that will work out though, but I'll keep pondering about it.

I really hope to see some more of these enhancements to the Eve economic trading pallette.

Thanks for an already wonderful game,

-Durkanis

Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
Posted - 2008.02.25 13:59:00 - [20]
 

I manage two Mineral Reserve Funds and I would be very interested in writing calls/puts in a Future mineral exchange.

Anyone interested in a Pyerite 6.40 ISK 90-Days Future contract?


CCP Chronotis

Posted - 2008.02.25 20:55:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: EBANK Ricdic

Quick question. What are the chances of getting share tracking into the picture? Currently it's impossible to track share movement (ie if you send me 100 CCP shares I can't see that you really sent them and you can't see that I really received them)?



I don't see a problem with it from a game design point of view, the shares are technically registered since you can see the current owners anyway so I have no issue with you seeing who traded them to who and by itself should be a relatively simple thing to add*. The next steps after that is share transactions for isk so there is less need for counterparties amongst other benefits.

As to the chances and when, I cannot answer that yet but can only say the first hurdle is passed in that we support the idea and would like to see it implemented as well.

*will have to check with Code Monkey!

Shadarle
Posted - 2008.02.25 21:06:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic

Quick question. What are the chances of getting share tracking into the picture? Currently it's impossible to track share movement (ie if you send me 100 CCP shares I can't see that you really sent them and you can't see that I really received them)?



I don't see a problem with it from a game design point of view, the shares are technically registered since you can see the current owners anyway so I have no issue with you seeing who traded them to who and by itself should be a relatively simple thing to add*. The next steps after that is share transactions for isk so there is less need for counterparties amongst other benefits.

As to the chances and when, I cannot answer that yet but can only say the first hurdle is passed in that we support the idea and would like to see it implemented as well.

*will have to check with Code Monkey!



This is huge and would be the largest jump forward in player run corporations in a long time. Please pass on to everyone there that this is probably the #1 content feature almost everyone on this forum would like.

Hexxx
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.02.25 22:14:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Hexxx on 25/02/2008 22:15:16
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: EBANK Ricdic

Quick question. What are the chances of getting share tracking into the picture? Currently it's impossible to track share movement (ie if you send me 100 CCP shares I can't see that you really sent them and you can't see that I really received them)?



I don't see a problem with it from a game design point of view, the shares are technically registered since you can see the current owners anyway so I have no issue with you seeing who traded them to who and by itself should be a relatively simple thing to add*. The next steps after that is share transactions for isk so there is less need for counterparties amongst other benefits.

As to the chances and when, I cannot answer that yet but can only say the first hurdle is passed in that we support the idea and would like to see it implemented as well.

*will have to check with Code Monkey!


Oh dear god please do this!!


edit: I will build a life-sized statue of your likeness using butter if you can make this happen.

Auri Hella
Downwind Trading Guild
Posted - 2008.02.26 17:16:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Hexxx
Oh dear god please do this!!

Oh Dear Lord yes please do.

I will even help with building the butter statue if it helps in any way Very Happy

Angela Toren
Amarr
Toren Shipyards
Posted - 2008.02.26 19:00:00 - [25]
 

This is an epic idea.

But would need to be done with ingame mechanics (automatic holding of the goods, clearing, risk management, pulling orders etc). A player run version would need to be very well run and i doubt anyone has the sheer amount of time to organise it all especially in a real time scenario. I can actually see it very nicely intergrating with the existing contract system.

Every region could have its own futures market.


Futures contracts in EVE is a awesome idea, especially seeing how volatile the economy in eve can be, there will be giddy highs and earthshattering lows. The best part is you dont actually loose any real money!

In fact i would love to sit in a bar in full ambulation and play the markets of eve. Maybe have a little chit chat with the npc barman about the latest news. Smile



Hexxx
Minmatar
Posted - 2008.02.26 19:31:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Angela Toren
This is an epic idea.

But would need to be done with ingame mechanics (automatic holding of the goods, clearing, risk management, pulling orders etc). A player run version would need to be very well run and i doubt anyone has the sheer amount of time to organise it all especially in a real time scenario. I can actually see it very nicely intergrating with the existing contract system.

Every region could have its own futures market.


Futures contracts in EVE is a awesome idea, especially seeing how volatile the economy in eve can be, there will be giddy highs and earthshattering lows. The best part is you dont actually loose any real money!

In fact i would love to sit in a bar in full ambulation and play the markets of eve. Maybe have a little chit chat with the npc barman about the latest news. Smile






Yeah...except that the Dev already shot down a futures market in-game....in this thread.

So....that's about it.

Danari
Invictus Australis
Northern Coalition.
Posted - 2008.02.27 11:16:00 - [27]
 

Bah I wish you would have reconsidered on two counts: It being the first month I'd bet there was more toe dipping than diving in. Second, it got almost no airplay. I was going to discuss how my month went come 1 March, and some buzz might have given it some traction.

Ishina Fel
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2008.02.27 11:56:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Hexxx
Oh dear god please do this!!


edit: I will build a life-sized statue of your likeness using butter if you can make this happen.


Ooohhh... Yes, please implement this, because I want pictures of the butter statue! Very Happy

Durkanis
Jump Speed Deliveries
Posted - 2008.02.29 16:03:00 - [29]
 

Wouldn't a futures exchange become possible once transferable futures contracts exist within eve?
It would be great if a futures contract would exist, even without an exchange. I am not yet sure how that would work though, as I have just started considering doing some futures contracts with first producers.
And I would really like to hear how others are doing this?

Once I figured this out and if it turns out to be useful, I will certainly file a feature request, if such request hasn't been made yet.

Priest Amarr
Amarr
Temple's Gate
Posted - 2008.03.15 02:12:00 - [30]
 

Last reply was two weeks old so I guess its not too late to reply here. Chrono, I think you can implement stock exchange system (instead of future market, but that allows people more than just tracking share movement) relatively easy . All the tools are already in the game. We have a item market, we have shares and there is a dividend system. If shares can be added to market , we already have buy/sell , buy order/sell order features there. Broker fee is there, tax is there, maybe last dividend amount can be shown in a column . This can be added into current market or can be reached from wallet as a separate window. If you keep it simple and treat shares as other market items Eve can have a in game stock exchange in the future.

May Blessings Be With The Dreamers of This Universe
Priest Amarr


Pages: [1] 2

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only