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blankseplocked Why folks are not going to 0.0
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Bastage Incorporated
Posted - 2008.02.05 22:10:00 - [61]

SP has nothing to do with whether people go to 0.0 or not. Plenty of high SP players in high sec and plenty of low SP players in 0.0.

Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2008.02.05 22:19:00 - [62]

Edited by: Matrixcvd on 05/02/2008 22:25:10
Originally by: Anell

The whole point of this thread (a point most of you refuse to address) is disparity in fighting ability between characters. This disparity is 80% skill point based and 20% actual experience based.

You are flat out wrong. In most situations, unless we go to extremes, skill and experience outweighs skillpoints. But mostly they go hand in hand. If you have experience, you have sp. There is so much to this game that even after nearly 2 years, i learn new tactics, and strategies all the time. I constantly go wow, i like how they did that. Instead of whining about being new and getting my arse shot to pieces, i watched what others did.

Originally by: Anell

Some of you will dispute this but the fact is that if you have an incredible amount of actual experience but lack the sp to even equip T2 weapons/ships then you are going to lose fights more often then if the opposite were true. Plus experience in fights comes rather quickly in comparison to sp which will literally take months to get a basic setup.

Wrong again twice. Most players, not some will, dispute what you have just said. You seem to have missed the premise of this game. If you are fighting fair, you're not fighting properly. You use any possible advantage. No matter how many times people say they want things to be even, people will always learn to use every advantage. There always will be gankers and the station huggers. Its human nature. Either learn, or GB2WoW. Your solution would be a death sentence and turn the game into rock paper scissors or tic tac toe. 20 caracals vs whaa???? R u serious? Skill flying eve internet spaceships is a serious buisness and takes a tremedous amount of time actually flyin in combat to have any clue of whats going on. Play the game, and stop trying to commiserate with less experienced players. This game takes a long time and its not easy, you clearly have no clue

Alz Shado
Posted - 2008.02.05 22:19:00 - [63]

Originally by: Bloodangle
SP has nothing to do with whether people go to 0.0 or not. Plenty of high SP players in high sec and plenty of low SP players in 0.0.

Originally by: Alz Shado
The biggest barrier to entry for 0.0 is NOT skillpoints, it's ISK. People aren't afraid of dying; they're afraid to lose their ships.

Posted - 2008.02.05 22:59:00 - [64]

Edited by: Clinically on 05/02/2008 23:00:02
Thread Fails

Bergnarf Corrine
Posted - 2008.02.05 23:14:00 - [65]

Well, for me, the reason why I don't go to 0.0 is because there's nothing that I want out the moment.

When I first started playing a month and a half ago, I like the prospect of 0.0 space being a "hinterlands" kinda area. Anything from finding ancient technology (old Terran, Tlalocan, whatever tech to use as a basis for invention or even to use directly), hidden bases to explore, to even Jovian space...all of that appeals to me.

However, as I've been playing, I've found that alot of that stuff really hasn't been as developed as it could be.

That the exploration sites are random, I can dig it. But the fact remains, there's no real "holy pewp!" things in 0.0 space. I want to find old arse stargates that match no currently existing cultures that might take me to places where I can see really old stuff ...and get shot for being where I clearly shouldn't be (yes, this happens when I can get near PC areas, but still.).

After all, it's been close to 15000 years since the EVE gate mean only the 4 "dead" cultures ruins are going to be found?

Jove space being closed, that I can understand as well (after all I read a lot of the back story). Again, though, I hope they open it up in the quasi-near future.

ANywho...despite all this potential, so far the only things that have ANY interest for me in 0.0 space are the NPC areas, the watered-down exploration sites (the ones that have anything to do with the backstory/history of EVE that is), and mebbe some of the eye candy.

I understand that once some of those things get more developed, that, sure, I'll prolly have to join some group. I also know that skillpoints aren't necessarily a sole determiner as to whether I'll survive in 0.0, if anything, it's the skills involved with knowing WHEN and WHAT to fight that're the main determiners. But for now, my interest isn't strong enough to make me want to join any PC corps in 0.0.

Personally, I hope that if CCP does develop the back-story more and puts more "interesting" stuff in 0.0, then more people will go there...I know I'll be willing to do so then.

Radix Salvilines
legion industries ltd
AAA Citizens
Posted - 2008.02.05 23:30:00 - [66]

Edited by: Radix Salvilines on 05/02/2008 23:52:08
i have an ultimate solution for making peoples go gladly to 0.0...

Instead of this:
No room

THIS (but mix the surroundings in your mind a bit better):
Much more room

Its all that easy Wink

P.S. hmmm looks like a nice pic for background, isnt it? miehiheihe

The Tuskers
Posted - 2008.02.05 23:46:00 - [67]

I must be playing a different game. I started a year ago. I spent the first 3 months in empire then moved to 00 and have been there ever sense.

Interceptors are a pretty quick train and tackle is vital to all PVP. ECM is another area where new players can make a big difference in PVP. The electric attack ships add even more PVP opportunity's for newer players. 00 PVP is not about solo unless you make it that way.

I still have less than 20m SP I have about 17m. I can fly interceptors, interdictors, covert ops, and Recon ships - PVP ships all. I think anyone that wants to can play this game in 00 and have a great time with 5m SP in the right spots.

StarFleet Enterprises
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.02.06 00:37:00 - [68]

In 0.0 players need to work together to get things done unlike in empire. That is not to say that you can't do things on your own, it is just a lot more safer in 0.0 if you work with other people.

So if you are a player that likes to do things on your own 0.0 might not be the place for you.

As for SP's being or making a big difference, well yes they do but that isn't to say that a player with 10 million SP isn't going to have fun playing in 0.0 and that same player may just take down a few other players that have many more SP's than they do.

0.0 can be a very exciting and wondeful place, but it can also be a very hard cold place that draws every single bit of energy out of players. It all comes down to how you approach what you are going to be doing in 0.0.

Anyway like the lowsec debate it would be GREAT to see many many more players in 0.0 but I just don't think it is going to happen because a lot of players have this idea that if they go to 0.0 all they will be doing is either being killed, Killing someone else or running to avoid being killed.

they don't get to see that rats bounties in 0.0 can be very nice and that some of the drops from those rats in 0.0 can be very nice. My advice to anyone wanting to go to 0.0 would be to join a corp/alliance that is established in 0.0.

Now this corp/alliance can be one of the many that are always fighting battles, OR it could be on of the corp/alliances that are in 0.0 doing minning, or ratting or whatever. It can be very expensive to live in 0.0 so it is a real good idea that you either have a nice amount of ISK saved up or you are able to earn ISK without too much pain.

Kalixa Hihro
Posted - 2008.02.06 01:55:00 - [69]

Originally by: Anell
Well my response is good for you! And how often do you die in return? Do you need to be in an alliance/corp with more experienced people to do that?

I'm in an alliance corp and I die a lot. 0.0=frequent death and destruction. That's just life out here. If you are in an alliance and you own space, people continually try to take it from you, so you must kill them over and over until they go away. During this process you will also probably die many times. I once went 2.5 weeks without dying despite being in daily fights. I've died 3 times in one day.

If you want to be in a 0.0 corp, you will pvp a lot. If you pvp a lot, you die a lot. I don't care how many sp's you have. The better your alliance gets, the better your enemies get, and the more you die LOL. They also die a lot. Everyone dies at some point. We all gotta go sometime (to use the cliche)

Your total SP is so unimportant so as to be nearly completely irrelevant in actual day to day PvP. It's only important on paper and whether or not it's focused on what you are flying at the time. Specialize.

What matters is your ability to not QQ (and keep quiet) in teamspeak, and ability to do what the fleet commander tells you to do in team speak instantly that second, without complaining about it or debating, and ability to watch local so you don't get ganked when you are alone. You also need the wisdom to not let yourself get baited.

It means not flying a ship if you can't fit the right guns and use the right ammo for what the fleet is doing. It's like driving a tricked out ricer with the wing, ground effects, fart can, and a loud stereo, but with a stock engine in it. All show, no go. It's better to be in a tackler if you only have the skills to fit medium guns on a battleship.

That's the only time skillpoints matter in 0.0, deciding what ship to fly that day. You will actually die less in a tackler than a HAC. The HAC is a much more attractive target.

A tackler is just as important as the battleship. Without the tackler, the target gets away. You can be an effective tackler right out of the gate with about 2 weeks of additional training.


Phoenix Club
Posted - 2008.02.06 02:05:00 - [70]

And the reason is simple. There is a massive amount of disparity in ability and skills in this game and it creates a lot of situations where people with less then 30 million skill points will die over and over in a 1 v 1 situation.

I stopped reading there, seems you dont quite yet know how the skill opint system works, You are wrong also, the reason people dont flood to 0.0 is because alot of the eve population is scared and believes this crap like you are writing here.

Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2008.02.06 02:16:00 - [71]

Grow some balls/ovum/whatever.

I moved out to 0.0 in my first caracal. I finished the skill for heavy missiles on my way out, and had to stop and pick up launchers. I was barely over 1m sp.

About a week after I got there, RA stomped all over my alliance. We got steamrolled, and I had a blast. We moved back to a safer area, eventually got steamrolled there, and were forced back to empire for about a month.

I've never been so bored in Eve.

You're going to lose ships.

You're going to recover from that.

You're going to get your ass kicked many, many, many, many times. It will not hurt. You will recover, and you will have learned from the experience, and you will get better every time.

The longer you stay in empire, the more comfortable you will get. Eve is not meant to be comfortable. It is meant to be a vicious survival-of-the-fittest bloodbath.

If you're not losing ships, you're not playing Eve.

Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
Posted - 2008.02.06 03:07:00 - [72]

Edited by: VeiledFlare on 06/02/2008 03:14:57
1v1 combat is extremely rare in 0.0. Most 0.0 dwellers tend to avoid it. The majority spend most of their time carebearing for their own wallets and that of their corp or alliance, only seeking combat when their corp or alliance requires them to do so.
Personally I found myself in 0.0 and low sec very quickly, finding a corp which was pvp orientated and began the survival learning process, which I may add, never ends. Being "blown up" is a hazard, but I find that more thrilling than shooting at npcs, or market trading. Earning ISK is easy, with a little extra knowledge you can improve your luck, and get blown up but not worry about the loss.

Being in an alliance or a corp with more experienced people obviously improves your chances of survival, just as in real life, you get a job, maybe join the military and learn from others how to live. Nobody in in this life knows everything, we all learn from others, and our own mistakes. The smart people adapt, and survive, the rest curl up in a ball.
I started with less than 5mil sp, joining a corp, then an alliance, occasionally flying solo in cheap frigates or cruisers, having small battles, occasionally winning, losing a lot. Now with 16mil sp I fly solo, with T2 ships, several billion in the wallet and a lot more experience, which keeps me alive for longer.

Ship fittings play a big part in combat, I've beaten much older characters in similar ships, but their fit was awful, or thrown together quickly. Vice versa, I've 1v1 in the same ship vs older pilots, who probably had virtually the same fit, but lost, partly due to their increased experience, and the skillpoint edge they had. That is just something one has to accept, the game won't be changed from the format it has now, it is better to accept it and learn when and when not to engage a character or a particular ship type vs your own.

All you need to start life in 0.0 are enough sp to fly a battlecruiser to rat, to pay for frigates and cruisers, then join a corp who will accept you at your particular sp level.
Gangs always appreciate tacklers, most frigates are fine at this. Cruiser class ships can play other roles besides raw dps. For instance ECM, sensor dampening, and tank repping are all handy in a gang whilst not requiring huge amounts of training time.
Even if you do not wish to be an all out pvper, then train mining, and give some of your yield to the corp, but be aware that you must still be prepared to pvp and defend yourself. There's always someone out there who wants your stuff.

An Anarchyyt
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2008.02.06 03:30:00 - [73]

Originally by: Karlemgne
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Uberapan
You're right, I for one have never seen newbies accomplish anything in Eve.

*Conquers all of the south*

That was helpful. I wouldn't pat myself too much on the back because my alliance is full of braggarts and asshats who are touting an accomplishment they haven't actually achieved yet.

Maybe that's why I'm not in Goonswarm.


*looks for CAOD* I think you're in the wrong forum.

Knight Storm
Rock Grinders
Posted - 2008.02.06 04:01:00 - [74]

Edited by: Knight Storm on 06/02/2008 04:21:52
Two really simple reasons.

1.Very few routes in to 0.0, all of which have at least 15 people waiting for you on the other side. With a warp bubble.

2.You don’t have to kiss anyone’s ass to enter any system in empire.

If I had routes to go rat in 0.0 over low sec, the question would be then, why doesn't anyone enter low sec anymore.


Or, as another example. On my other Char while in 0.0. Start ratting, fleet hops in, warp then cloak or jump safe spots as they try to probe you out. Ok fleet is gone, resume. Rinse repeat so much its pointless being there. As everyone’s egos are so big they bring at least five others with them to protect it.

Nah I’d rather just mission make more isk, less hassle. Then play my alt in RedvsBlue and actually get 1 on 1, best of all don’t have to hunt in low sec for a week or too to find it! Or face any 15 man bubble camp, because that’s “pvp”. Good luck with that Laughing.

Lindsay Fox
Blue Midget Corporation
Posted - 2008.02.06 04:05:00 - [75]

it's hard to beleive the opionions in the op, but then again I probably felt the same way when I was an empire hugger as well. I guess a lot of the problem is that ppls first experience with 0.4 or less is trying to do missions or mine and getting ****d every time. so they just assume that 0.0 is worse.

how about all the alts that the 30m SP players create? they hit 0.0 from day 0 and seem to survive.

some things that empire just doesn't prepare you for:

1. local. for the first 6 months of playing I had local minimised. it was completely irrelevant, and it took me probably 2 weeks of dying stupidly when I moved to 0.0 to make checking local an instinctive act. Now, my peripheral vision picks up changes in local count without me even trying.

2. use the map - check number of pilots in system, number of recent kills, check it often and definitely before every trip you take. since trinity you can actually fly with the map open all the time. a large number of players in a system means you will die...

3. patience. it took another couple of months to learn to NOT jump through a gate which was probably camped, thinking i would 'probably' get through. I never did and neither will you. if a gate is camped just do something else. Getting through a camp is one thing that really does require skills, equipment, and ISK that is beyond most young players.

4. bookmarks. i now bookmark systems religiously, a point 200km off every gate, and at least one safespot. once you have those, it's very difficult for a gang to find and kill you even if they are trying.

if you can do all of the above, you can survive in 0.0 with 1m SP and a frigate.

Reem Fairchild
Punic Corp.
Posted - 2008.02.06 04:19:00 - [76]

Originally by: Anell
The whole point of this thread (a point most of you refuse to address) is disparity in fighting ability between characters. This disparity is 80% skill point based and 20% actual experience based.

Even if this was true (and it isn't, but let's assume for a second that it is), how is this even relevant to the issue of being in 0.0 or not? Have you ever even been there? There are no duels in 0.0. There are no fights between equal numbers. There are no 1 v 1 situations. In the rare occasions that they do happen, they happen purely by accident.

The new characters run out into low sec (most don't even make it to 0.0) and get blown up right away by someone in a bigger ship or one with bigger weapons. They might even get podded.

And the reason that happens has absolutely nothing to do with sp and everything to do with them having 0 clue about how to get around safely in low-sec and 0.0. They are better off going there, getting killed and learning from the experience while they have little to lose then to wait and have to learn later when they are flying a big expensive ship (which they will lose, because again they have no clue).

Tarron Sarek
Biotronics Inc.
Initiative Mercenaries
Posted - 2008.02.06 04:26:00 - [77]

Being in a corp/alliance > SP
Having a second account with scout/ECM/Recon alt > SP
Experience > SP

Complaining over SP disparity = priceless

Vardr ok Lidskjalv
Posted - 2008.02.06 04:51:00 - [78]

I really die all the time. I even got drunk last night and lost a pod worth a couple million isk. I'm even a nub thats eight months in with no support. In all the stupidty I find it alot better then sitting safe in empire.

umop 3pisdn
Fnck the blob.
Posted - 2008.02.06 05:14:00 - [79]

Edited by: umop 3pisdn on 06/02/2008 05:20:40
Edited by: umop 3pisdn on 06/02/2008 05:17:54
This post sucks.

I moved to 0.0 about 2.5 months into the game.

It is a school of hard knocks, you will die a lot if you arent part of a blob, the trick is to use t1 cruisers/t1 battlecruisers so that your losses arent too costly.

I have seen a caracal ratting happily in 0.0 on many occasions, Drakes ratting in 0.0 are very commonplace, its not even hard for them, at all.

People wont go to 0.0 because they dont have too, empire provides them all of the benefits and none of the penalties such as death.

If you're reading this and wondering what its like in 0.0, I think you should IMMEDIATELY:
Create an alt with a spare character slot, use the map to find a NPC controlled 0.0 station you can dock in that doesnt have too many people nearby (use the map settings to figure this out) and then fly your noob ship there, and see what its like, if you die so what? just get another noob ship.


Get on the test server, thats probably the harder option, and then go there with your main character and fight the rats, mine the ore, see what its like and if its for you.

When you do move, dont take expensive rigged ships, a t1/t2 fitted drake or raven is perfect for carebearing, a dominix/gedden/phoon work well enough too and with insurance cost little.
Get jump clones, you can do this for free without mission grinding in EC-P8R but BE AWARE that this is a dangerous system, be sure you know whats there before you jump in.
If you're going to get a jump clone there then you may as well try J-CIJV as your first home, its not the friendliest place in the world but the surrounding systems can offer a nice place to rat in peace.
Exploration is good money and not being in a belt makes you hard to kill tbh.
Think like a hunter, dont be in their hunting grounds.

Leave your implants in empire, especially when you are new to 0.0
Read everything and anything you can find.
Learn how to cloak, learn how to make safe spots, learn to use the map and scanner.

Eve gets exciting once it gets dangerous, not before

Posted - 2008.02.06 12:06:00 - [80]

I am a 2.6mill skill point player I have resided in 0.0 for the last month, yes I have had losses, but I have had kills, I make a load of isk, I am very usefull in pvp I am mainly a tackler till my skill points increase but do fly my hurricane in pvp also, I have never lost a ship pvping in 0.0, all my losses are traveling to and fro from empire to 0.0 so now I dnt I just buy stuff in 0.0 at inflated price but no risk or jumpclone out to get ships books etc. My corp is only 3 months old, we have a pos up in 0.0 and mine refine rat pvp and scan out anomolies. And hay guess what we are surviving very nicely at the moment, I think the main problem is the big misconception hanging over 0.0 that couses relative noobs to stay out, I find it much safer in 0.0 than low sec.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2008.02.06 13:09:00 - [81]

Originally by: Lindsay Fox
... if a gate is camped just do something else.

Like maybe stay in high sec? Wink

Players need options, the options for small groups and solo in low sec and no sec are too limited. Reduce the risk and hassel in travel, so that people can do something besides look at a map, send alt scouts and wait around for gangs all the time, and people will be running around all over the place.

Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2008.02.06 13:27:00 - [82]

"Reduce the risk and hassel in travel"

There is no way to make 1 ship > 10 ships. If you're solo in a small fast ship you should be able to make it back to the gate and GTFO.

otherwise bring friends.

0.0 is not like a level 4 mission where 1 Raven can expect to tank 5-20 bad guys. You need to accept that right now, deal with it and move on.

Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2008.02.06 13:47:00 - [83]

Originally by: Malcanis
"Reduce the risk and hassle in travel"

There is no way to make 1 ship > 10 ships. If you're solo in a small fast ship you should be able to make it back to the gate and GTFO.

otherwise bring friends.

0.0 is not like a level 4 mission where 1 Raven can expect to tank 5-20 bad guys. You need to accept that right now, deal with it and move on.

Please show me where I said make one ship greater than ten ships. And your solution, "bring friends" Great, blob FTW, yay!

Genos Occidere
Posted - 2008.02.06 14:29:00 - [84]

Patience is the key to 0.0. But unfortunatly 0.0 residents, espically ones you are neutral too have too much free time.

Set a jumpclone in 5zxx and you'll see that straight away. As soon as you materialise in the station, you'll see that almost whole of local, (which is docked in the station). 50% of which immediatly undock upon your arrival and proceed to station camp you.

The interesting thing about the 5zxx station is that it has a 30km docking perimeter. You can NEVER die, proceeding you wait 20 seconds before taking any actions when undocking. They will still camp you until the 24 hours on your JC are over though Have fun. Laughing

Red Harvest
Posted - 2008.02.06 14:40:00 - [85]

What the OP is wrong about is that it has anything to do with SP its more a state of mind.

I really see 3 groups huging empire:
a) ALTs - come on how many ppl do you know who have at least 1 alt in empire for trading or financing their pvp? Among all the ppl i know theres only 2-3 that dont have one in empire.
b) Newbs - trying to learn the game
c) solo-gamer - ppl who really enjoy running missions and doing stuff on their own AND dont like to loose/waste their ships in (from their view) pointless pvp

I really cant blame the solo-gamers, sometimes (especially during fleet-fights when EVE degenerates into a slideshow) im really asking myself why the fck am i wasting my time/isk with this when i could do something thats much more fun to me (eg anything else, hell even mining is better).
Only thing that would get more ppl into 0.0 is lowering the risk of entering it and staying there (and o/c making it possible to better avoid pvp, lots more carebears out there than you would think)

Posted - 2008.02.06 18:57:00 - [86]

i loved 0.0, and i emplore every other eve player to at least experience for a while.

The problem for me was time...I didnt have the playing time available for the dedication that is required to live there. Almost immediately i found their was fleet ops i couldnt take part in or was not around to partake in defending our territory.

I imagine that many over players have this problem, and i wander if the dedication required puts players off. As has been mentioned, you can log on/off whenever in High sec. The nature of 0.0 does not make this possible IMO

Sergeant Spot
Galactic Geographic BookMark Surveying Inc.
Posted - 2008.02.06 19:13:00 - [87]

A character with just a few million skill points in the right role at the right time can be a real threat to a 70 mil skill point character. The 70 mil skill point character can do more roles.... Heck, played smart in the right role, an almost new character can be useful.

Having said that, yes, a 4 mil SP PvP character in his best cruiser class ship will die horribly fighting 1 vs 1 against a 60 mil SP PvP character flying his best cruiser class ship (assuming no other special conditions. With special conditions, even 600mil SPs are not enough....), but thats only a tiny sliver of what 0.0 is about.

Revolution Rising
Serenity Engineering and Transport Company
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2008.02.06 19:33:00 - [88]

Edited by: Revolution Rising on 06/02/2008 19:43:39
I agree completely with the OP. I dont think it's specifically an SP issue, however I think eve is just geared to be unfriendly to new players and corps.

It's like the wild west, sure but it's a wild west with no civilization AT ALL.

This particular wild west is just killing for the sake of killing, no real reason and no justification apart from having guns.

Sure it's a pvp game, but at the cost of newer players definitely.

I know that I tried to introduce 3 of my friends to eve, but they found it laborious because they kept getting esploded. When they saw how far ahead people were in skills and how long it would take for them to catch up, they left.

I'm slightly more tough ;)

The Scope
Posted - 2008.02.06 22:02:00 - [89]

I'm still a newb by most standards I suppose but what I've seen thus far is what you do has far more to do with whether or not you get blown up than how many skill points or what you fly.

Does it really matter how many skill points you have or how expensive that ship was if you get caught by a swarm of pirates? no

Do you really need a lot of skill points or a certain ship to avoid said swarm? no

Ser Prius
Posted - 2008.02.06 22:12:00 - [90]

Originally by: Larg Kellein
Bring a couple of t1 frigs and your course registration fee and come see us here: Linkage

I think you'll find your estimated required SP is waaaay over the mark.

I have to say I took Agony's class when I was a noob and it did really help, a lot. It also confused me but months later I would get something they said. It's a fun way to spend a day playing and you'll get some chance to do some real pew-pew in a fleet.


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