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Lithia Tsanov
Posted - 2008.01.26 23:52:00 - [1]
 

Good day,

There's been some confusion on many of the "Off The Assembly Line" ship threads as to what an OTAL ship "is". I am creating this thread in an attempt to answer those questions, and to address the perception that OTAL configs possess little inherit value.

An OTAL ship is a fully fit META 0 PvP cruiser consisting of components wholy manufacturered from T1 blueprints. They include a full compliment of T1 drones, ammunition, and necessary scripts.

The requirements for an OTAL ship are:
1: Can be manufactured entirely from T1 BPs
2: Can be flown by a typical 5m SP Caldari pilot.
3: As effective as can be (For a Meta 0 ship)
4: Cap must hold out for a full 2 minutes of combat
5: Config must be feasible in terms of CPU and Grid


The cost of an OTAL ship is calculated by subtracting the price of "Premium Insurance" from the "Premium Insurance payout". This essentially makes the ship "free" for the pilot (the base price of the ship is almost free depending on the price of materials).

OTAL ships have contemporary fittings, with weight given to native ship bonuses and race. This allows 3-5m SP pilots to simply hop in and undock without having to re-fit and/or worrry about whether or not they have trained the correct skills. Caldari ships receive missiles, Hybrids, and ECM. Amarr receive lasers, neuts, etc. These configurations hope to serve as a guide to pilots unfamiliar with the fitting process, or are having a difficult time fitting a new ship for the first time. They make great noob trainer ships as well!

OTAL ships are designed to be as effective as a Meta 0 ship can be. This is not to say that the pilot will be flying the stock config into battle. The pilot is absolutely free to sub out individual components of an OTAL ship for higher meta level items. In fact, his is actually encouraged, and allows the pilot to accentuate his/her particular strengths, compensate for weaknesses, and adhere to their desired budget.

OTAL ships are designed to promote PvP participation. Every CTA I have taken part in has begun with a dozen pilots making non-participtory excuses.

1: I don't have a PvP ship, mine blowed up
2: I can't get into the corp hangar to get ammo/fittings/etc and the directors are 12 jumps away
3: I'll be there, but need 30 minutes to fly 8 jumps to get some launchers.
4: All I have left is 10m ISK and I can't afford to take my ratting ship.
5: I'm a miner and don't have a combat ship.
6: I just joined the corp yesterday and the carrier hasn't arrived with my ship
7: The list goes on and on.

With OTAL, these draft dodgers basically get seated in a free ship. The contemporary fitting let's the FC know exactly what to expect, and they are able to join in and play an effective role in whatever the OP may be.

Availability, price, ready to fly. These are the benefits that OTAL brings.

There have been a few negative responses to the OTAL philosiphy. I will do my best to fairly summarize these fairly.

1: OTAL ships do little to no dammage.

A "stock" OTAL ship does approximately 33% of a fully T2 fitted and single rigged cruiser. The damage ability for a "stock" OTAL Caracal is approximately 175DPS for a 3-5m SP caldari pilot. While this is a laughable number, it "is" better than zero. A quick check with EFT shows that a couple Meta lvl 2 replacement parts quickly brings this number to 250. Faction ammo to 300. T2 drones to 310. The upgrades are left to the imagination and ability of the pilot (and to whatever rat loot fits their OTAL). Whether or not a pilot can undock is no longer determined by the market, the corp munitions hangar, or regional module availability.

Contunued.......

Lithia Tsanov
Posted - 2008.01.26 23:53:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Lithia Tsanov on 27/01/2008 22:04:41
2: OTAL ships have little tank and would survive 30 seconds in combat.

In eve, death is not permanent. These ships are made to get blowed up. The 30 seconds that it takes a "primaried" OTAL cruiser to explode is 30 seconds that other ships are not exploding. It's 30 seconds for your gang to do dammage. It's 30 seconds that your corpmate in the 120m ISK Tier 2 Bship is "not" getting primaried. It's a 30 second gang bonus that your gang would "never" have received had there not been an OTAL cruiser there.

3: While OTAL promotes participation, it "demotes" the usage of T2 components and larger, more expensive (read higher DPS ships).

I really do not know how to respond to this one. It has quite a bit of truth to it. There's always someone that always seems to be poor and takes cruisers to all the fleet ops when the FC asked specifically for Bships. I don't think OTAL will change that particular unfortunate aspect of the game. I'll concede to #3 as an issue that my corps and FCs will have to find a solution for.

4: I do not think your fitting is nearly effective as.........

As long as your fitting is cheap (no drone link augs), plays the ship bonuses, race, and meets the requirements up top, then I am all ears. Sometimes it comes down to a judgment call between a MAR/400mm plate vs an SAR/800mm plate. If you have a compelling case that the typical aggregate damage received in a 60 second encounter would give an advantage to one config over another, then I'll be happy to adjust accordingly. If you present me with a specialty config (all neuts on a vexor), then I'll have to pass. I'm building ships for any/every pilot. Specialty, experimental, and "creative" fittings are best left to the pilot, not the industrialist. I'm all for free thinking, I'm just not going to put those particular configs on corp contract.

In summary: An OTAL is a "free", conservatively fit, ready to fly cruiser designed for rapid acquisition and deployment. They make great trainers, and are designed to get as much out of a stock chassis as humanly possible. Module upgrades are strongly encouraged, but not required. Below are some sample configs from the existing OTAL threads.


Caracal
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=691473
Vexor
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=690884
Celestis
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=690672
Thorax
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=690053
Blackbird
http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=691852

shurikoo
Posted - 2008.01.27 00:07:00 - [3]
 

I thought OTAL meant "Off To Another Lossmail". LaughingLaughingLaughing Thanks for letting us know though.

Liang Nuren
Posted - 2008.01.27 00:18:00 - [4]
 

A suggestion: Link to this post in your forum sig.

-Liang

Segmentor
The Scope
Posted - 2008.01.27 00:28:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Liang Nuren
A suggestion: Link to this post in your forum sig.

-Liang


Great idea, this post will surely liven up anyone's day. Laughing

Dude, this is pointless, seriously.
I do understand your idea, but there's no "typical" pilot in eve, and the targeted poor noobs wich can't afford to bring their own ships will most likely always lack a required skill or two.
Think about it. Mass-production of free ships bigger than cheap tackler frigs is a pointless way of loosing isk.

AnKahn
Caldari
The Blood Wraiths
Posted - 2008.01.27 01:01:00 - [6]
 

Lithia,

Your idea is great. Please forget the "If man were ment to fly he'd have wings" thinking.

There are many eagar PvPers out there. Anything that makes the cost of blowing up ships less is an awesome idea, and I use that word rarely. I was on TS and the industrialist was talking about what he would charge a corpmate for a Nighthawk and I was like well then how about building me a Raven? "Sorry I don't build T1 anymore."Rolling Eyes

Trainers? Anyone ever hear about trainers? I know everyone in EvE is leet but don't we really want EvE to grow so maybe we should encourage noobs?

The biggest problem with EvE right now is all the tech 2 ships running around NOT engaging for fear of uninsured losses. If I could get Raven hulls for cost I would fly them anywhere, any time. Not, hold on let me go get my Condor and I'll be able to put a point on! Let's face it, we all know when we are on a suicide op. At least we might be able to have fun doing one in more serious ships.

Finally, exactally how is a enemy FC going to be able to tell the t2 from the t1 fitted ships, tarot cards?

Pans Exual
Minmatar
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
Posted - 2008.01.27 01:05:00 - [7]
 

The point is, any ship out there is better than no ship. When a gang jumps in, enemies don't report "15 guys in OTAL ships just jumped in, let's pop 'em." They say, "15 man gang just jumped in."

Yargo Metash
Minmatar
Heimatar Services Conglomerate
Posted - 2008.01.27 01:17:00 - [8]
 

I do support this idea, only I wish named items could be incorperated onto them, not the "best" ones but the best fitting/cheapest ones, (Malkuth's in favor of Arbalest's for example.)

Heck, if you have a jump clone and a ship you can afford to lose, there is no reason you shouldn't pvp.

Besides, with good tactics, anything is possible.

Ra'ita
Posted - 2008.01.27 02:02:00 - [9]
 

I'm digging these basic setups, despite any flaws they might have. It's a great place to start.

But take note:

Originally by: Liang Nuren
A suggestion: Link to this post in your forum sig.


Seriously seconded there.

Lithia Tsanov
Posted - 2008.01.27 02:10:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Yargo Metash
I do support this idea, only I wish named items could be incorperated onto them, not the "best" ones but the best fitting/cheapest ones, (Malkuth's in favor of Arbalest's for example.)

Heck, if you have a jump clone and a ship you can afford to lose, there is no reason you shouldn't pvp.

Besides, with good tactics, anything is possible.


I normally replace the stock fittings with M1 if there is something in the loot/donations hangar. It's hard to break even if you don't get the M1 modules for free. I would have to run at a loss, rather than the break-even point I am at.

If the pilot wants better fittings, he is free and encouraged by the game mechanics to acquire them.

LT

Tasko Pal
Aliastra
Posted - 2008.01.27 03:33:00 - [11]
 

I heartily approve of this idea. As I seem to recall hearing, some of the big pvp corps and alliances started life this way. While I don't see this viable for every corp model (in some cases, I agree that OTAL ships probably can't contribute, like to covert ops gangs or a bling ridden t2 raiding gang. But for many situations, it can add both numbers and generate more experienced pilots down the road.

Dal Thrax
Perkone
Posted - 2008.01.27 04:11:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Tasko Pal
I heartily approve of this idea. As I seem to recall hearing, some of the big pvp corps and alliances started life this way. While I don't see this viable for every corp model (in some cases, I agree that OTAL ships probably can't contribute, like to covert ops gangs or a bling ridden t2 raiding gang. But for many situations, it can add both numbers and generate more experienced pilots down the road.



That would be Goonswarm. Of course a "small" goon gang tend to run around 50 people. Not sure what goons are fitting now. I suppose I could go look at the killboard for one of the groups fighting Goons to find out what current fits they're using.

Dal

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.01.27 04:41:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 27/01/2008 06:37:02
Some notes to help you out:

Tech 1 damage mods are terribly penalized compared to tech 2

But tech 1 tanking mods are not very penalized compared to tech 2.

Tech 1 ECM and Damps are very penalized compared to tech 2

Tech 1 TDs are not very penalized compared to tech 2.

Speed mods are barely penalized compared to tech 2.

Since t2 fits are similar, you can apply these in general when fitting ships.

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2008.01.27 05:48:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Lithia Tsanov
The cost of an OTAL ship is calculated by subtracting the price of "Premium Insurance" from the "Premium Insurance payout". This essentially makes the ship "free" for the pilot (the base price of the ship is almost free depending on the price of materials).


If by "free", you mean "costs as much as a few tackler frigates which will each do more for the fleet than your OTAL ship", then yes, they're free.
Quote:

These configurations hope to serve as a guide to pilots unfamiliar with the fitting process, or are having a difficult time fitting a new ship for the first time. They make great noob trainer ships as well!


OTAL ship: a couple mil.

EFT + forum setups index: free.

Quote:
OTAL ships are designed to promote PvP participation. Every CTA I have taken part in has begun with a dozen pilots making non-participtory excuses.


Free PvP ships to encourage participation: good.

Making those free PvP ships terrible T1 junk: bad.

This is a good goal, but the solution is T1 frigates. They're cheap, and they do the job better than your OTAL ships. And there's really no excuse, because you can buy a stack of them for almost nothing.

Quote:
1: OTAL ships do little to no dammage.

A "stock" OTAL ship does approximately 33% of a fully T2 fitted and single rigged cruiser. The damage ability for a "stock" OTAL Caracal is approximately 175DPS for a 3-5m SP caldari pilot. While this is a laughable number, it "is" better than zero.


The question is not "is it better than zero", the question is "is it enough to be worth flying it", and the answer is of course no. Your OTAL ship does barely more damage than a properly fitted T1 frigate, and does it with a higher price tag, slower speed, and no tackle ability.

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2008.01.27 05:49:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 27/01/2008 05:52:57
Originally by: Lithia Tsanov
2: OTAL ships have little tank and would survive 30 seconds in combat.

In eve, death is not permanent. These ships are made to get blowed up. The 30 seconds that it takes a "primaried" OTAL cruiser to explode is 30 seconds that other ships are not exploding. It's 30 seconds for your gang to do dammage. It's 30 seconds that your corpmate in the 120m ISK Tier 2 Bship is "not" getting primaried. It's a 30 second gang bonus that your gang would "never" have received had there not been an OTAL cruiser there.


If surviving 30 seconds is the goal, a T1 frigate will give you that for even less ISK. There is no need to throw away a cruiser to do this.

Quote:

In summary: An OTAL is a "free", conservatively fit, ready to fly cruiser designed for rapid acquisition and deployment. They make great trainers, and are designed to get as much out of a stock chassis as humanly possible. Module upgrades are strongly encouraged, but not required. Below are some sample configs from the existing OTAL threads.


The problem is they aren't great trainers. If a pilot doesn't have the skills or ISK to fly the ship with a proper setup, they have no business flying a cruiser in the first place. They aren't going to learn how a proper cruiser works by flying one with no offensive power and instantly dying the moment someone feels like shooting at them.

Your problem is you ignore two fundamental rules of EVE:

1) PILOTS ARE A RESOURCE, AND MORE VALUABLE THAN ISK: Every corp/alliance, even Goonswarm, has a limited supply of active players. While 1000x T1 frigates may be better than a single T2 fitted tier-3 battleship for the same cost, you will never have that kind of player ratio available. You have to maximize the supply of active players you do have, and you do this by getting them in the absolute best ship they have the skills to fly.

Let's say your T1 junk needs a 3 to 1 ratio to trade evenly with my T2 ships. You think you come out ahead on cost-effectiveness, but only if you actually have a 3 to 1 player ratio. If we're even in player numbers, I have a 3 to 1 ratio. Let's say we each have 15 players... I have 15 ships, you have effectively 5. I will dominate you, to the point where you'll be very lucky to kill even a single one of my ships. By trying to cut your losses, you've signed your own death warrant.

2) CHEAP SHIPS ARE NOT CHEAP: They just have an illusion of cheapness if you only look at it per-ship. In the long run, flying cheap ships will cost you more than flying expensive ones (within reason, faction ships/items break the rule). Let's say for the price of one 10 million ISK T2 fitted cruiser, I can buy 5x 2 million ISK T1 fitted cruisers. It would seem like a good deal, except I am far less likely to lose the 10 million ISK cruiser in situations where the 2 million ISK cruiser will instantly die. In the long run, I might lose two of the 10 million ISK ships, but fifteen of the 2 million ISK ships. And once you count in the lost income from the targets the 10 million ISk ship kills and loots that the 2 million ISK ship doesn't, I come out even farther ahead.

jongalt
Posted - 2008.01.27 06:00:00 - [16]
 

i think OTAL is a great idea.

"anecdotal" evidence aside.

lol.

so what.

-jg.

Goumindong
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2008.01.27 06:36:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Goumindong on 27/01/2008 06:52:10
Originally by: Merin Ryskin

OTAL ship: a couple mil.

You are vastly overestimating the costs of cruisers and battlecruisers tech 1 fitted.

Yea, they arent very strong, but they dont need to be, because the pilots flying them arent very good and the cost is low.

A pilot flying a t1 ship is not as valuable as a pilot flying a t2 ship.

A pilot flying a t1 ship 10 times is more valuable than a pilot flying a t1 ship once. The t2 ships give more experience, they build more daring. You get more time flying them, your gangs are larger in general.

The t1 cruiser here does much more damage than a properly fitted tech 1 frigate. It has more hit points. Its also cheaper.

Show me a tech 1 frigate with 140 dps at 80km and 6800 EHP. I dont care what you fit, you cant do it. You cant make a 140 dps tech 1 frigate at 1km with 6800 EHP

Your absolute best bet is a tristran fit like this:

[Tristan, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Thorn Rocket

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

Hobgoblin II x1


Which is 10 PG over budget, 3000 hit points short, and rouhgly down 80km of range, and the damage control alone is more expensive than the entire tech 1 caracal after insurance.

Compare to say, this caracal:

[Caracal, New Setup 1]
Overdrive Injector System I
Overdrive Injector System I

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor I
Stasis Webifier I
Invulnerability Field I
Medium Shield Extender I

Heavy Missile Launcher I, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher I, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher I, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher I, Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher I, Scourge Heavy Missile

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

Hobgoblin I x2

142 dps to 40km, 120 to 126km. Has a web and a scram, travels 1876m/s, cap lasts for a bit over 2 minutes and 1 minute on the MWD. More when not running other modules. It has 9000 EHP and you can trade an OD for a DC to make it 11,500 EHP and/or a damage mod for 160 dps.

Quote:

The question is not "is it better than zero", the question is "is it enough to be worth flying it", and the answer is of course no. Your OTAL ship does barely more damage than a properly fitted T1 frigate, and does it with a higher price tag, slower speed, and no tackle ability.


"Is it better than zero?" is the same question as "is it enough to be worth flying it?". Because in this situation, the alternative is nothing. Or, as you say, a tech 1 frigate which is even worse[and more expensive]

They want people on ops to help out, they dont want idiots like you telling them to not defend their space because they cant fly top of the line equipment.

Tacklers are good, but you only need so many, and tech 1 cruisers are better for DPS and EHP, cheaper too.

Burukt Vri'ra
Locus Industries
Posted - 2008.01.27 07:31:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Burukt Vri''ra on 27/01/2008 07:41:09
From my experience flying for AM way back when, I have to say I love the OTAL ship idea. Oftentimes I couldn't stomach the loss of one of my own ships, whereas dropping a few mil on an OTAL cruiser would have been easily affordable, plus some tweakage from my stock of on-hand modules.

The argument of OTAL Frigates vs. Cruisers does make some sense to me, but just because OTAL is starting with Cruisers doesn't mean it stops at Cruisers. Lithia can just as easily do OTAL Frigates as well, and leave it to the choice of the corp/player which to deploy. Sure, these things are weak, we're all aware of that, but so what? These are basic issue ships. Hand them out in goody bags, as welcome-to-the-corp gifts, whatever. The other thing is that flying these will set a lot of newbies onto the ideas of basic PvP fits through exerience, then said newbies can tweak them to their liking.

Just a mild ramble, it's hard to think when I have a cat on my lap trying to chew on various articles of clothing.

*EDIT* Cat's gone, LINKIFIED

Caracal
Vexor
Celestis
Thorax

Maverick 52
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2008.01.27 07:54:00 - [19]
 

The point of the OTAL ships isn't to make a uber own gang. It's to get PvP newbies into a ship that will let them experience PvP and contribute.

Their contribution may be short lived, and it may not be much, but they made it. This is always better than having them sit in the station and tell them to wait a month or two until they can bring a BS or HAC.

Your gang should be competent enough to know what it needs, it should already have experienced pilots for it's main damage dealers, it's tackles, and it's ewar. The OTAL ships are there to allow more numbers/targets, and provide more damage potential/ewar/points/webs.

The main flaw in your argument that these are useless comes when you say the players are more valuable in something else. These ships are meant for noobs, they are likely the best ships they can fly(except named mods). Doesn't matter if you put them in a best named frig, or a pure t1 cruiser, their contribution to the gang will be very similar.

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2008.01.27 08:43:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Goumindong
"Is it better than zero?" is the same question as "is it enough to be worth flying it?". Because in this situation, the alternative is nothing. Or, as you say, a tech 1 frigate which is even worse[and more expensive]


Wrong. There are two nice alternatives:

1) T1 frigates. They're still not all that helpful, but at least they're far cheaper.

2) T1 cruisers with good-named fittings. This is FAR better, there is absolutely no reason to refuse to fit at least mid-range named equipment. It's still dirt cheap, making the ship both more effective period AND more cost-effective.
Quote:

They want people on ops to help out, they dont want idiots like you telling them to not defend their space because they cant fly top of the line equipment.


Ok, fundamental problem here: why is a corporation of newbies who can't even fly properly fitted cruisers trying to claim space? A T1 cruiser with a mix of T2 and good-named equipment is hardly a major investment, in ISK or in skillpoints. Nobody's saying you have to have full T2 fittings with max skills before you try getting into PvP. But that doesn't excuse going all the way down to basic T1.

Quote:
Tacklers are good, but you only need so many, and tech 1 cruisers are better for DPS and EHP, cheaper too.


Then fit those T1 cruisers properly. Second-best named launchers, etc. Cost goes up slightly, but effectiveness goes up far more. The only reason I said T1 frigates is because the focus here is on getting the cost as low as possible... if you're too cheap to fit your cruisers properly, you might as well drop down to T1 frigates and save even more money.

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
Posted - 2008.01.27 08:47:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Maverick 52
The point of the OTAL ships isn't to make a uber own gang. It's to get PvP newbies into a ship that will let them experience PvP and contribute.

Their contribution may be short lived, and it may not be much, but they made it. This is always better than having them sit in the station and tell them to wait a month or two until they can bring a BS or HAC.


Seriously, why do you people insist on strawman-ing "fit them properly" into "only fly T2 ships with T2 fittings"? Obviously the second would just be silly (and a good way to lose a lot of ISK). But there's a huge difference between using good-named equipment to let lower-skilled players contribute and dropping all the way to basic T1 to save as much money as possible. Expecting good-named fittings is perfectly reasonable and gets them into the fight just as quickly as basic T1, but actually lets them contribute something once they get there.

Quote:
Your gang should be competent enough to know what it needs, it should already have experienced pilots for it's main damage dealers, it's tackles, and it's ewar. The OTAL ships are there to allow more numbers/targets, and provide more damage potential/ewar/points/webs.


If the gang is already complete without the OTAL ships, why bother bringing ships that you expect to die without contributing? Just drop all the way to T1 frigates and let the newbies watch the fight without risking even a T1 cruiser.

Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr
Ammatar Free Corps
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.27 10:24:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Merin Ryskin

If the gang is already complete without the OTAL ships, why bother bringing ships that you expect to die without contributing? Just drop all the way to T1 frigates and let the newbies watch the fight without risking even a T1 cruiser.


Because T1 cruisers give you a bit of experience with flying cruisers and it's a distraction/meatshield if your opponent is using a 'Cruiser or larger' filter?

IMHO it's a great idea. If you produce the stuff yourself (with a bit of ME on ships and the more heavily used modules) you can easily get the production costs to the point where insurance payout covers both the cost of the ship+modules+insurance.

Alidore
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Sylph Alliance
Posted - 2008.01.27 10:28:00 - [23]
 

Do the OTAL ships come with left wings?

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2008.01.27 11:10:00 - [24]
 

sorry if its been said but try some meta 1/2/3 stuff as its cheaper than the plain t1 variant.

anyways im going to suppose you will want to stick to mainly caracels and blackbirds. (i wonder how many 5mil caldaris would be any good with a moa)

also if everything its t1 than by 5mil sp you can use just about everything, if not everything. given that you seem to be a ceo/director type you should have come control/influence over what everyone trains

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2008.01.27 11:15:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Alidore
Do the OTAL ships come with left wings?


and a right wing, with 5 defenders, and 2 centers

(else yes they are fail boats)

Paulo Damarr
Posted - 2008.01.27 11:37:00 - [26]
 

If they are sold in the right places and say I just lost a ship and wanted to get back to the gang as fast as possible I would certainly buy a OTAL.

I hope it works out for you.

Vorga Gar
Posted - 2008.01.27 12:15:00 - [27]
 

I like this OTAL idea, but why you say to use meta level modules instead of t1 modules, don't forget that you can't produce meta level modules. All the meta items on the market are supplied by players ratting, missioning and looting. Leave it to the player that gets such an OTAl ship to refit it with his own items.


What about doing these setups for races other then Caldari/Gallente? Like an OTAL Arbitrator, or OTAL Belicose?

El Yatta
0utbreak
Posted - 2008.01.27 12:57:00 - [28]
 

Really long post that essentially just says "if you are poor fit all t1" and "if you are poor AND lazy AND your corp is poor, get them to dish out pre-fit t1". I mean, yeah, not bad ideas, but rather obvious, I would have thought. I dont mean to be mean, but any corp that has members so unmotivated ot put together a decent ship, and is so poor itself it cant give its members decent ships, is pretty much worth regarding as "prey" anyway.

Xavia Cameron
Caldari
Capital Core Collectives
Posted - 2008.01.27 13:50:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Xavia Cameron on 27/01/2008 14:02:06
At first glance this seems a bit silly, but after seeing what T1 fitted T1 Cruisers are capable of... And how they can train people and desensitize them to PVP is insane.

My corp has a sister empire corp, every now and then we get as many guys as possible together from both corps, and sometimes even our alliance, and kit them out with "OTAL" cruisers. Quite usually them and the equipment built and hauled by the corp.

Then, we teach them how to fight.. Then for the hell of it we slam our selves into the most suicidal situations we can find. Of about the 6 ops I've been on... I've engaged 2 moms and 3 carriers + 50 man support fleets with us in T1 cruisers. Its awesome fun, because we deal more ISK damage then we take, because the ships insure for more then there total value and we take out T2 ships left, right and centre.

Wasting time..? maybe... Fun ass hell..? Yep YARRRR!!


Edit: We use our own setups, not the ones posted.. we're not that lazy!

Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
Posted - 2008.01.27 13:57:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Vorga Gar
I like this OTAL idea, but why you say to use meta level modules instead of t1 modules, don't forget that you can't produce meta level modules. All the meta items on the market are supplied by players ratting, missioning and looting. Leave it to the player that gets such an OTAl ship to refit it with his own items.


What about doing these setups for races other then Caldari/Gallente? Like an OTAL Arbitrator, or OTAL Belicose?


if you are supplying ships to your corp mates I would rather buy an item that is cheaper AND better than to slap t1 meta0 on. If your a mission running corp in highsec, that will often be the case, if your deep 0.0 well then of course production becomes an issue.


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