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Artem Plovix
Dynamic Industrial Group
Posted - 2008.01.18 20:58:00 - [1]
 

There's already a thread about the interface needing a major overhaul, and in conjunction with that I believe the controls are horribly in need of attention too. I've NEVER understood why players don't have DIRECT, TACTILE control over their ships. Why am I not able to use a joystick to fly my ship? The way it is now, it's more like you're always on autopilot, and you just give it suggestions as to where you'd LIKE to go, and sometimes you actually arrive there. Too many situations where the autopilot flies you right into the sides of objects when you're trying to orbit, or brings you to a dead stop to turn you around instead of making a graceful banking turn, or generally doesn't do AT ALL what you wanted it to do.

So again I ask, why can't we directly control our ships? It doesn't seem like it would break the game mechanics at all. Ships are still restricted to the same top speeds, same acceleration, same turning radius, etc. In a game where range and maneuvering can mean the difference between killing or being killed, I really hate letting the drunken simpleton that is the autopilot fly my ship for me.

Since 99.9% of this game takes place while flying around in your ship, it seems like more attention would be paid to making the controls less frustrating, more intuitive, and more FUN. I want to be able to get ships into formations, do aerobatics, zip in and out between the bigger ships in my little frigate, etc. The way it is now, it feels like you're just stumbling around in space while trying desperately to blast the other guys around you.

Here's another shocking idea. How about an inside the cockpit view? Again, the game mechanics would still work the same, just the view would be a bit different, and you'd have direct control over your craft. The control changes alone would make things much more immersive and fun, let alone being able to stare out of the cockpit of my frigate, or even out over the bridge of my capital ship.

Eve is great, but there are so many major areas, such as this one, that seem like they receive little or no attention. The stuff we have to deal with every day when playing, every moment we're in the game, like the interface, the controls, etc, get the least amount of polish. I hear complaints about these things all the time from other players. CCP must be aware of it, but here we sit, same controls and interface and all the other problems for years and years :(

Sorry to complain, I'm just trying to find out if there's anything being done about it. I can't find any information anywhere, and I can't believe CCP isn't aware of how dissatisfied most players are with the interface and controls. So, either they're working on it, or they're ignoring the problem. Let's hope it's the former, and not the latter! Smile

Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
Posted - 2008.01.18 21:03:00 - [2]
 

Joystick would be nice,

but where is that 0.1% where you're not in some form of ship? :)

Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
Posted - 2008.01.18 21:07:00 - [3]
 

Because i'm guessing one reason is eve's drasticly overcomplicated code, would make this a nightmare. also, you can control your ship making it dive in and out between ships, hard to do yes, fun to do yes, impossable, no.

I wouldnt mind it overall, but there are reasons its not been done, doesnt mean it wont be done in the future, just not now...

Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
Posted - 2008.01.18 21:09:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 18/01/2008 21:09:11
Couple of comments:

1) You aren't in a cockpit, you are in a circular "pod" full of goo. Nothing to see, everything is controlled via your mind. Read the backstory or hunt up the short fiction called "Jovian Wet Grave".

2) Joystick isn't going to help your maneuverability, the ship still won't turn when you tell it too Wink It might help you steer through an asteroid belt or hold range in a nano-ship or interceptor, but overall it isn't going to do much. Jerk the controls to the right on your Drake and it will still take 5 minutes to turn....

Some situations might be nice to have alternative controls, but for hte most part it isn't needed.

Billy Sastard
Amarr
Life. Universe. Everything.
Posted - 2008.01.18 21:13:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Billy Sastard on 18/01/2008 21:13:53
Quote:
I've NEVER understood why players don't have DIRECT, TACTILE control over their ships.


Does the captain of the USS Enterprise sit in the cockpit piloting the boat with the wheel and throttle? Nope, he stands at the helm instructing the crew where to go.

EVE is about capital size spacecraft, not seat of the pants dogfighting.

Just my .02 ISK

Tarminic
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2008.01.18 21:14:00 - [6]
 

Joysticks
Joystick control would be nice, but consider the amount of network lag this would introduce. Currently you give your ship an order (orbit object whatever at X kilometers), your computer sends the order to the EVE servers and your ship executes it until object X is no longer present or you give it a different order. With joystick controls, you'd be giving your ship course corrections at least every second.

There would also be a noticeable delay between your joystick movements and the ships response. This would break immersion and be incredibly frustrating since this delay would most likely mean that you would have to continually overcorrect for the latency.

EVE is not a flight sim, and the way that combat functions would mean that joystick controls would please almost no one and frustrate everyone.

cockpit View
Well, Pod Pilots exist in their ships not in a cockpit of any kind but the capsule, where their brains are linked directly to the camera drones orbiting the ship in space. There is still a "bridge" on the ships, but we certainly don't see them. A perspective view from the command center of the ship would still be kind of cool though.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.01.18 22:32:00 - [7]
 

last time I watch star terk they had a navigation guy who could point the ship in any direction.

including moving sideways
straight up and down
without turning

also he could allign the ship in any direction he wanted.

In eve I can't allign with a stargate I can kinda almost move toward next to it.
I can kinda of make my battleship turn around and go forward at 300km/s and up a bit so I move away form the stargate.

why not have this with a joystick?
what would change?
it would just be more realistic and you wouldn't be blocked by stations and ****.

I mean really you can only move in a direction that has empty space in the way.
wtf...

Anyone that disagrees has never watched star trek.


shady trader
Posted - 2008.01.18 23:03:00 - [8]
 

This has been discussed a lot.

1) the code is not set up for it so a large part of the game would have to be rewritten.

2) currently to change direction you send one command to the server (the location of the mouse click). If you used a joystick you would have to sent 10/100's of commands to the server in the same time frame.

3) if you get lag (large fleet battles, Jita) were the responce is slow it would be imposible to control as changes to the course you will take upto several minutes to be happen, and can you prodict just how much of a change you want with out seeing the effects?

4) It a lot of fleet and other activites people operate there ship zoomed out so it would be impossible to control.

If you want more reasons, like in the features and Idea's form (were this sort of post should be as you are suggesting improvements) at the sticked commonly proposed idea's thread. You can also try a search (suggest you use eve search as its got a better search engine).

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.01.18 23:21:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon

why not have this with a joystick?
what would change?
it would just be more realistic and you wouldn't be blocked by stations and ****.

I mean really you can only move in a direction that has empty space in the way.
wtf...

Anyone that disagrees has never watched star trek.



Anyone who agrees doesn't understand networks, to be honest.

The lag increase would be ten-fold at least.

Asestorian
Domination.
Posted - 2008.01.18 23:27:00 - [10]
 

EVE just isn't the kind of game where you use a joystick; it's an RPG, not a space simulator. Now, I can understand your frustrations with the way EVE ships move about. It's certainly something that could be improved upon, but at the end of the day joysticks aren't going to happen with the current game. If you introduced manual control like this everything has to change to accommodate it; from the combat system to the one big server. Yeah, the server; because if you think that EVE's current server, or any server CCP could possibly buy, can support 40,000 people all sending movement information from their joysticks every second (or less), you're smoking crack in fantasy land.

Second issue with this is that the vast majority of EVE's players just plain don't want this kind of system. If this is implemented, I will quit EVE instantaneously. There are going to be lots of people out there who feel the same. Quite frankly, were CCP to do this to EVE I have a feeling we'll end up in a situation similar to that of Star Wars Galaxies, just with less players.

EVE could be improved in this area. But joysticks are not the answer, and never will be.

Secondly, read the backstory. There is no cockpit for you to see out of, you're in a pod. Were a cockpit button implemented all you'd see is blackness. Also, think about just how big EVE's ships are. You aren't flying fighters here, you're flying massive, massive ships. Were you on a bridge with a joystick, you're going to find yourself really freakin' bored flying like that, slowly watching space go past, or not moving at all, while your guns (or gunners as you're probably, incorrectly, thinking) move around on their own trying to track any enemies.

But here's some good news for you: CCP were at some point thinking about doing something with a joystick system in a subgame (think Ambulation) of EVE. However, there's a bit of a catch. Should this ever come about, it'll be many, many, many years before we start seeing anything playable. That is, assuming CCP still think such a subgame would be a good idea.

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.01.18 23:37:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: MotherMoon

why not have this with a joystick?
what would change?
it would just be more realistic and you wouldn't be blocked by stations and ****.

I mean really you can only move in a direction that has empty space in the way.
wtf...

Anyone that disagrees has never watched star trek.



Anyone who agrees doesn't understand networks, to be honest.

The lag increase would be ten-fold at least.


sigh... let think out side of the box for just a second maybe?
joystick controls don't have to be ducking and weeving between ships RAWR PEWW PEWW!!

it could work the way I'm sure it works in big ship sci-fi.

you would move the direction of the ship and then press engage!
only then does the ship take up the new course that you have set for it.

you would still click in space during dangerous situation where you need faster movement like getting the hell out asap.

but if you want to do a 180 you should be able to set the course manually and then engage thus the ship folows the path you set.

this wouldn't make eve a twitch game any more than it already is.

and also what the hell do you know about eve's networks?
most likely no more than the rest of us.


I don't think this is the most important thing to work on in eve at the moment many other things should be worked on

Commoner
Caldari
The Tuskers
Posted - 2008.01.18 23:39:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Commoner on 18/01/2008 23:40:18
Edited by: Commoner on 18/01/2008 23:39:52
Direction represented as a vector related to the camera angle when double clicking in space.

This gets Annoying when you try to align to objects doubleclick close to the objects sometimes selects the object instead of getting your ship moved in that direction.

One simple change, instead of adding "joystick" controls why not simply make a 360 degree compas on the hud, let an arrow represent the direction in space and by adjusting the direction of the arrow you can change the direction of your ship.

i've made a little thingie illustrating my thought.

Rudder in eve


MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.01.18 23:41:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: MotherMoon on 18/01/2008 23:41:43
Originally by: Commoner
Edited by: Commoner on 18/01/2008 23:39:52
Direction represented as a vector related to the camera angle when double clicking in space.

This gets Annoying when you try to align to objects doubleclick close to the objects sometimes selects the object instead of getting your ship moved in that direction.

One simple change, instead of adding "joystick" controls why not simply make a 360 degree compas on the hud, let an arrow represent the direction in space and by adjusting the direction of the arrow you can change the direction of your ship.

i've made a little thingie illustrating my thought.

Rudder in eve


that's a much better example of what I was trying to get across :P
the point is we need MORE control over our ships.
hell the pod is suppose to make us fell like we ARE the ship.

however add a function where it shows where the arrow currently is and where you ship is because eve ships will have to catch up

MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Posted - 2008.01.18 23:43:00 - [14]
 

here's another idea let us hold down a button like... I odn't know what isn't used up in eve yet...

G!

and then while holding down g it only takes one click to move in space, but! NOT ONLY THAT! but if you click where a planet is or something it ignores the fact that there is an object and just moves in that direction!

Paulo Damarr
Posted - 2008.01.18 23:49:00 - [15]
 

I still maintain that EVE could and should be more like the Star trek game Bridge commander and have all the tactical options available such as diverting power. Heat and scripts bring slightly more options but its still limited.

Twitch control would never suit EVE but the dated mechanics will have to be updated or EVE suffers the risk of becoming a fossil, remember the core game dates from 2003(?)and its still really limited by having set areas to warp to such as asteroids, stations and gates, I'm not going to go along with the doom mongers who say XXXX game is the end of EVE as there is no real competitor looming but sooner or later something is going to come along with updated controls, UI and mechanics.

If EVE 2 was ever made my ideal dream game would be Environments similar to Freelancer where you have many free to roam areas filled with game content with a control system like ST bridge commander with the current EVEs market and "crafting" economy. Its certainly possible remember those two games are old themselves but the problem is integrating that into MMO architecture.

Cpt Branko
Retired Pirate Club
Posted - 2008.01.18 23:49:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: MotherMoon
here's another idea let us hold down a button like... I odn't know what isn't used up in eve yet...

G!

and then while holding down g it only takes one click to move in space, but! NOT ONLY THAT! but if you click where a planet is or something it ignores the fact that there is an object and just moves in that direction!



Now that's a good idea.

About networks; I don't know about EvE networks for sure, but I know about network software in general, and I can assure you increasing client-server communication by a huge amount would be a very bad thing.

That suggestion is quite good, though - I'd more like it to be a toggle though, so I can still press F1, etc, while 'single-click mode + no object selecting' is active.

OwlManAtt
Gallente
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2008.01.18 23:51:00 - [17]
 

There's an OK space MMO called Vendetta Online that sounds like its more up your alley. Not as much content or players as EVE, but it's a twitch game.


Suzerain
Posted - 2008.01.18 23:58:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: Suzerain on 19/01/2008 00:00:27
Edit. Deleted cos this is my blimmin' alt.

Suze'Rain
Caldari
Posted - 2008.01.19 00:01:00 - [19]
 

joystick combat would be brilliant fun....
But not in eve's ships. Remember that the smallest frigates are bigger than Boeing 747s - cruisers are the size of Nimitz-class carriers, and Battleships are a mile long - they're not exactly x-wings or Babylon 5 starfuries that turn on the spot.

I'd love to see a "spin-off" game set in aerospace fighters (ie, dragonfly, templar, etc) or similar sized craft, in a smaller player environment (ie, not with 40,000 other players on) that would allow realtime responsive controls. one of the big things with a MMO like eve is that most actions are actually semi-turn based, running over time, so that commands an be sent as packets to minimise the already horrendous lag - realtime joystick style control would make the lag impossibly bad. Even the very latest generation of mmo designs (conan, tabula rasa) are only beginning to look at pseudo-FPS levels of responsive control.


Buyerr
Posted - 2008.01.19 01:11:00 - [20]
 

yup, but don't expect it ever to come.. this is eve devs we are talking about, they ain't known for taking in request that have been there since start of the game ;)

Buyerr
Posted - 2008.01.19 01:14:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Blane Xero
Because i'm guessing one reason is eve's drasticly overcomplicated code, would make this a nightmare. also, you can control your ship making it dive in and out between ships, hard to do yes, fun to do yes, impossable, no.

I wouldnt mind it overall, but there are reasons its not been done, doesnt mean it wont be done in the future, just not now...


code would not be harder to make at all!
since the code is already there only different is the tricker would take maybe a day or two to put this in the codes. (don't know how long it would take to make it fully function if there is some other complication blablablabla. but it is a extremely simple thing to do)

Artem Plovix
Dynamic Industrial Group
Posted - 2008.01.19 04:40:00 - [22]
 

WWII Online is entirely server side as opposed to client side like most flight sims, etc, yet you can still control all the aircraft/tanks/guns/etc with a joystick, gamepad, or whatever.

I do networking and IT for a living, so don't tell me I don't understand networks.

What I'm suggesting is perfectly doable. It might require a bit of creative coding, but it's not impossible by far. If a half assed, bug filled, twice-as-old-as-Eve game like WWII Online can do it, so can Eve.

Dracborne
No.Mercy
Posted - 2008.01.19 05:07:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Dracborne on 19/01/2008 05:09:04
Originally by: Artem Plovix
WWII Online is entirely server side as opposed to client side like most flight sims, etc, yet you can still control all the aircraft/tanks/guns/etc with a joystick, gamepad, or whatever.

I do networking and IT for a living, so don't tell me I don't understand networks.

What I'm suggesting is perfectly doable. It might require a bit of creative coding, but it's not impossible by far. If a half assed, bug filled, twice-as-old-as-Eve game like WWII Online can do it, so can Eve.


I loved WWII Online but it suffered from lag that was far worse than EVE. You'd make a strafing run over a hotly contested CP and hoped that you pulled up correctly, BEFORE the lag, because you'd lag to the point where you'd be lucky if you made it with crashing into a church or tree. The 64 player viewable bug was pretty bad in the begining as well.

As far as a joystick in EVE. I think it would make sense for flying frigs and possible nano fast cruisers/HAC's but thats it, unless they added the ability for us to fly Fighters off a carrier or Mother Ship.


Artem Plovix
Dynamic Industrial Group
Posted - 2008.01.19 05:15:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Dracborne
Edited by: Dracborne on 19/01/2008 05:09:04
Originally by: Artem Plovix
WWII Online is entirely server side as opposed to client side like most flight sims, etc, yet you can still control all the aircraft/tanks/guns/etc with a joystick, gamepad, or whatever.

I do networking and IT for a living, so don't tell me I don't understand networks.

What I'm suggesting is perfectly doable. It might require a bit of creative coding, but it's not impossible by far. If a half assed, bug filled, twice-as-old-as-Eve game like WWII Online can do it, so can Eve.


I loved WWII Online but it suffered from lag that was far worse than EVE. You'd make a strafing run over a hotly contested CP and hoped that you pulled up correctly, BEFORE the lag, because you'd lag to the point where you'd be lucky if you made it with crashing into a church or tree. The 64 player viewable bug was pretty bad in the begining as well.

As far as a joystick in EVE. I think it would make sense for flying frigs and possible nano fast cruisers/HAC's but thats it, unless they added the ability for us to fly Fighters off a carrier or Mother Ship.




WWIIOL may have suffered from hit detection lag, but I don't ever remember having trouble seeing which direction a tank or other vehicle was pointed in, which direction its' turret was facing, etc. Don't forget, Eve uses a "dice roll" combat system, so there's a LOT more room for lag and such too. It's not a first person shooter that requires instant hit detection the millisecond you shoot something.

F'nog
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2008.01.19 05:19:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Artem Plovix
WWII Online is entirely server side as opposed to client side like most flight sims, etc, yet you can still control all the aircraft/tanks/guns/etc with a joystick, gamepad, or whatever.

I do networking and IT for a living, so don't tell me I don't understand networks.

What I'm suggesting is perfectly doable. It might require a bit of creative coding, but it's not impossible by far. If a half assed, bug filled, twice-as-old-as-Eve game like WWII Online can do it, so can Eve.


How many people play on each server, though? I doubt there's as many as are in most of Eve's nodes.

Riethe
Posted - 2008.01.19 05:26:00 - [26]
 

There is something known as interpolation that allows the EVE servers to handle as many clients as it does.

It's also the reason we often desynchronize with the server.

Basically, think of it like this:

If you had a joystick, or a keypad, or a steering wheel, every time you press a direction or very slightly adjust the angle of your joystick, you've now sent additional data to the server.

In a point and click system, you send one coordinate or one direction, and then the server handles that one small piece of data. All the clients then can see that ships are flying every which way, yet it requires far less data to be sent back and forth.

If you think the lag is bad now, introducing a real-time control of flight with a joystick would literally destroy any playability with just a few people around.

Frug
Omega Wing
Snatch Victory
Posted - 2008.01.19 05:35:00 - [27]
 

LEARN 2 PVP

although

Quote:
I want to be able to get ships into formations,


That would be nice. The rest is silly.

Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2008.01.19 05:41:00 - [28]
 

Didn't Eve just get nominated for an academy award? Let's listen to Mr. Exclamation mark face on how to improve it Razz

Furious Hawk
Caldari
Farlight Council
Posted - 2008.01.19 06:40:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Furious Hawk on 19/01/2008 06:42:28
Edited by: Furious Hawk on 19/01/2008 06:41:29
A frigate is half the size of the Eiffel Tower. Anything bigger has too much mass to go dogfighting around in.

Want to go joy sticking around? Play Freelancer.

Artem Plovix
Dynamic Industrial Group
Posted - 2008.01.19 07:44:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Didn't Eve just get nominated for an academy award? Let's listen to Mr. Exclamation mark face on how to improve it Razz


This is exactly why issues like control and interface are never addressed. Fixes to functional parts of the game don't earn them big news articles and awards. Flashy graphics, trailers showing things not possible in the actual game, claims of huge fleet battles while neglecting the enormous lag involved, etc, earn them headlines. So they focus on hype and not so much on actually making things work better.

:(


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